What makes people so cheap?

[Scott Shepherd]

I ran into a situation the other day that just about offended me when it was said. The more I have thought about it, the more puzzled I have become.

I run a business. I charge what I think is a fair rate. We have $50,000 worth of machinery to produce the products we do. I'd like to think that $60-70 per hour is fair for our business. When I go into other places that do the same thing we do, I always see signs on the wall that say things like "Our shop rate is $90 per hour".

So all in all, I guess we are at the low end for our business.

So I'm in a meeting about 8 months ago, and someone asks this computer tech guy "What's your rate". He says without blinking an eye, "$130 per hour". At the time I thought "Wow, that's pricey, I can't afford him", and the person that asked said "Well, that's about right for IT work".

So, I thought I was just out of the loop.

Fast forward to last week, I'm in a meeting with the owner of that company, and others. He whips out some marketing material he had printed. It was a lot of stuff, lots of pages, etc. He then says "Yeah, and I saved a boatload of money on this. I got it online and I saved 75% over what my local printer wanted for it".

That really offended me. Why, you ask? Yeah, I thought you would.

I can't get past that level of arrogance. The printer has $50,000 digital printers, inks that costs $1500 a pop, etc. So they have to make a living. Do you think if they charged you $130 per hour, that would be okay? Apparently not. Apparently it's only okay to make $130 per hour if you are him. If you supply services to him, then he would like you to make $17.50 per hour. That's the printer's $70 per hour rate, cut by 75%.

Am I wrong, or is that extremely arrogant? Would you be offended if someone told you that they saved 75% over your cost by going to the internet, and then handed you a bill for $130 per hour?

Just curious and opening up a discussion while a job is running (bored).

[Eric Larsen]

I would not be offended.

Customers are by nature drawn to the least-expensive solution to their particular problem.

For instance, I have exactly ONE decent tool shop in my area. One. I would love to do more business with them so that they continue to be the ONE decent tool shop in my area.

But when the difference between them and the internet is more than $100 or more than 30%, I generally turn to the internet. If they go out of business, I'll be without a "right-now" solution when I need a router bit, etc. But I don't see why I should pay a lot more for the exact same product or service. I'm just a consumer, after all.

[Mike Henderson]

Our economic system encourages people to seek the best value, which translates to increased productivity. So if one company can produce a widget for $10 and another charges $20 for the same widget, the company charging $10 will prosper and the company charging $20 will not. The $10 company is more productive.

Productivity generally means a better standard of living. If the $10 company can produce the same with less workers, those workers will usually make more than the employees at the company charging more, perhaps because they're doing more specialized tasks requiring more training.

Productivity gains come from competition in the market, and increased productivity means a higher standard of living.

So I would not be offended by the person who was able to buy something for less money. That's what our economic system encourages them to do.

Mike

[To answer the question in your title, "What makes people so cheap?" - Our economic system makes people so cheap and it works pretty good. Our economic system is not about "fairness" but about productivity and lower prices.]

[glenn bradley]

We all want Nordstrom service and Wal-Mart prices; we are doing ourselves in. For an equal product or quality of service it only makes sense to get the best value. What I find disturbing is folks who get upset when their $10 internet printing job doesn't equal a $50 local job ;-)

[David Eisan]

Here is my own story,

I had a customer come in the store and the first thing he asked is why he should buy here (only independent left standing in a city of 300K) instead of the BORG. I told him because our prices are the same or less, we service what we sell and we know what we are talking about.

He came in to buy an impact and a circular saw. I spent over an hour with this guy showing him the various brands we sell and allowing him to test various impacts and drills. He had asked about a Makita accessory kit ($50) and I told him it was free with any Makita purchase over $500. He ended up buying an LXT401 minus the 'cip saw and the flashlight (hammer drill and circular saw in kit bag). The price was really cheap. I had credited back the two tools he didn't want at full pop.

I was out at a school yesterday looking at guarding issues. When I got back, I noticed there was a returned Makita kit. Turns out he returned it saying he found it at a lower price at the BORG. I asked today if the free accessory kit came back, and it turns out it didn't. I don't blame the staff member, I had commented to everyone that it was the hardest sale I had had in a long time and the staff member figured out this guy was him and was in a hurry to attend buying customers.

There is no chance he found it at a lower price. He found something of a similar description and assumed it was the same.

How would you deal with customers like this?

David, Tool store Manager.

[Leo Graywacz]

How would you deal with customers like this?

David, Tool store Manager.


Well, hopefully this guys face is burned into your brain. Next time he shows up ask him for the bag back. If he refuses, lead him to the door and don't do business with him. He basically stole from you. Plain and simple.

I am not going to go head over heals to try to sell someone my service. If they can't easily be convinced by simple facts and hard knowledge, then let them shop somewhere else. :cool:

[Jim Rimmer]

Here is my own story,

I had a customer come in the store and the first thing he asked is why he should buy here (only independent left standing in a city of 300K) instead of the BORG. I told him because our prices are the same or less, we service what we sell and we know what we are talking about.

He came in to buy an impact and a circular saw. I spent over an hour with this guy showing him the various brands we sell and allowing him to test various impacts and drills. He had asked about a Makita accessory kit ($50) and I told him it was free with any Makita purchase over $500. He ended up buying an LXT401 minus the 'cip saw and the flashlight (hammer drill and circular saw in kit bag). The price was really cheap. I had credited back the two tools he didn't want at full pop.

I was out at a school yesterday looking at guarding issues. When I got back, I noticed there was a returned Makita kit. Turns out he returned it saying he found it at a lower price at the BORG. I asked today if the free accessory kit came back, and it turns out it didn't. I don't blame the staff member, I had commented to everyone that it was the hardest sale I had had in a long time and the staff member figured out this guy was him and was in a hurry to attend buying customers.

There is no chance he found it at a lower price. He found something of a similar description and assumed it was the same.

How would you deal with customers like this?

David, Tool store Manager.
This is not an unusual story (except for the theft). Lots of people go to the places with friendly, knowledgeable staff to get all their questions answered and then go to the cheaper store or the internet to buy the goods. They don't connect yor knowledge and time to the price. Unfair, yes. But true.

[Don Bullock]

I do understand what you are saying, but in this country this happens all the time. I taught school for 37 years. During those years many people from parents and to major politicians, including presidents, proclaimed that teachers should earn more money. Did we end up getting good raises that they said we should? Absolutely not. My question to you is why? I had more education and more "client contact hours" (amount of time directly serving a client-averaged 30 clients at the same time every school day), more stress, according to some studies, than most people who made substantially more. It's just how our system works. I spent those years enjoying my job and doing my best to give my students the best education I could despite the archaic school system and I wouldn't have traded my job for many that would have paid more. BTW -- I've been able to save thousands in decorating and outfitting our new home through the Internet. Should I feel guilty about that?

[Frank Hagan]

I think there is a moral issue when you take up a salesperson's time, leverage his experience, and then buy from someone else for a cheaper price. Its something I avoid doing consciously, although I have had situations where I have looked at an item in a store, without taking up someone's time, and then later found it on sale either on-line or elsewhere and bought it.

But I don't feel its fair ... or moral ... to use someone's time and experience, both valuable assets, if you plan to "shop for price" on the 'net afterwards.

[Mark Patoka]

Here is my own story,

How would you deal with customers like this?

David, Tool store Manager.

That's just downright dirty of that customer. As a business you may not have much further recourse once the return transaction has been completed. Obviously the guy must've waited until you weren't around to do the return, knowing you would ask for the kit. I guess he figured the "free kit" was his free gift just for trying the Makita and he wasn't being offered it at the Borg.

It's amazing how many scruples and morals get thrown out the window when someone has a chance to save a literal dollar and they don't care what the impact is to someone else. I just try to follow the command "Do unto others....."

[Rod Sheridan]

As others have said, we want Wal-Mart pricing and the utmost in customer service.

I find it insulting, to say the least, when someone expects that their time is worth X, while only being willing to pay X/2 for other peoples time, for similar skill and investment values.

This chase to the bottom of pricing only removes diversity and choice from our lives. If we give all of our business to the largest businesses, the smaller, more flexible businesses will fail.

The large companies have economies of scale that smaller companies cannot compete with, however smaller companies can do the one off items, the special orders etc because they have that flexibility.

If we continue to only shop based upon price, one day we're going to find that ULTRABORG is the only supplier in our town, and if they don't carry it, you won't get it.

Customer service in my opinion is the key to sales.

A year ago I was looking at the Felder, Hammer and Mini-Max jointer/planer combo's.

I spoke to the Minimax dealer in Toronto, and in London, as well as Felder.

At the woodworking show, the London dealer had the booth across from Felder, and I went to them first to talk about prices on the Mini-Max. The astounding response was that I would have to drive to London to go to the dealer location and talk pricing.

I walked across the aisle to Felder, and they were more than happy to get my wife and I a coffee, and discuss pricing, and take a deposit on the machine.

Since I hadn't started out with any pre-conceived notions as to which machine to purchase, the company with better customer service had my business.

So, keep buying on price only, who needs alternatives?

Regards, Rod.

[Bonnie Campbell]

The problem with some small businesses is hiring help that understands the concept of 'customer service'. I try shopping locally at the mom and pop stores. But when I walk in and ask a question, I would like some help. I don't want to see sales people hiding out avoiding me. And employees should NOT be allowed cell phones while working (and PLEASE get rid of the chewing gum!!!!). I'm willing to pay a bit more for good customer service. But give me bad service and I'll buy the product online instead of dealing with hostile clerks. I don't expect to walk into a local store and have the clerk tell me 'Oh, you'll find that item 15 aisles away' as they point in a general direction. SHOW me what I'm looking for! If I want that kind of help I can go to Walmart (which I refuse to shop at). Hire people that know the stock too. Example... went looking for a drill guide. Even in the contractor section they'd 'never heard of such'. Finally we ended up traveling 60 miles to another city to buy one because the powers that be in the local store never heard of a drill guide?!

Bad customers, I know they're out there. Just don't label ME as bad as soon as I walk in the door. I know of plenty of people that have returned things after buying them, because they only needed it for the one time usage. That's something I'll never do.

[John Baranowski]

ut when I walk in and ask a question, I would like some help. I don't want to see sales people hiding out avoiding me.
Here is the customer service I want in a place like that: I want a salesman available (and able) to answer questions, but I don't want him following me around to every item I look at trying to tell me why I should buy it. Nothing I hate more than a shark looking for a quick commission. Unfortunately it seems you get the two extremes: sales people that are ignorant and invisible, or the 1950's used car salesman. grrr...

[Gene Howe]

I do my research, decide the brand or product I need will do the job, find a store or website that carries it and then, buy it.
Sadly, I don't have access to anything but BORG type stores. Their clerks are USUALLY ignorant. Some aren't. And, the tool selection is limited to a few manufacturers. And, that selection is limited to what sells best. I understand and accept it. I just won't go there for my tools. So, I'm destined to either travel 180 miles or buy on the net.

[Scott Shepherd]

I have no issues with shopping around for price. I do have a problem with someone devaluing my service and expecting their service to maintain $130 per hour levels.

[Chuck Wintle]

Here is my own story,

I had a customer come in the store and the first thing he asked is why he should buy here (only independent left standing in a city of 300K) instead of the BORG. I told him because our prices are the same or less, we service what we sell and we know what we are talking about.

He came in to buy an impact and a circular saw. I spent over an hour with this guy showing him the various brands we sell and allowing him to test various impacts and drills. He had asked about a Makita accessory kit ($50) and I told him it was free with any Makita purchase over $500. He ended up buying an LXT401 minus the 'cip saw and the flashlight (hammer drill and circular saw in kit bag). The price was really cheap. I had credited back the two tools he didn't want at full pop.

I was out at a school yesterday looking at guarding issues. When I got back, I noticed there was a returned Makita kit. Turns out he returned it saying he found it at a lower price at the BORG. I asked today if the free accessory kit came back, and it turns out it didn't. I don't blame the staff member, I had commented to everyone that it was the hardest sale I had had in a long time and the staff member figured out this guy was him and was in a hurry to attend buying customers.

There is no chance he found it at a lower price. He found something of a similar description and assumed it was the same.

How would you deal with customers like this?

David, Tool store Manager.

That's what makes retail such a cut throat business. The customer profited from your expertise but rewarded a the BORG with the sale. Happens all the time from my understanding.

[Brent Leonard]

Alot of talk about using the "specialty shop" knowledge and turning around and buying from the discount outlet.......

Makes me think of my own practice in my "other" love, fishing.
I have travelled all over North America, the Carribean and the Pacific, fishing. Anywhere I go, I love to find to local bait/tackle shop and talk about the local techniques and conditions with the owner/staff. Some guys are rude and arrogant, most are not. When I find someone who will give me tips and such, I will ALWAYS buy a number of lures and such from him. Typically I don't need the equipment, but in my mind I'm doing the right thing by giving him business for his help.

Perhaps those clerks that are rude, have simply given out information before, then the "customer" walks out without buying anything. I've personally seen it a number of times. That's what is rude.

[Stephen Musial]

Probably just some poor schmuck who wanted to build a super-strong mailbox...

[Eric Larsen]

I have no issues with shopping around for price. I do have a problem with someone devaluing my service and expecting their service to maintain $130 per hour levels.

We can value our time at whatever we want. But the only thing that really matters is how much our customers/employers/clients are willing to pay for our time.

[paul cottingham]

I ran a computer and network support company. We ran into this all the time. People would ask for a cabling or hardware quote, then use the quote to shop around for a cheaper vendor. The best part of that is when the cheaper vendor couldn't adequately deliver, we would get a call back, and the customer would try to haggle over what we would charge to make it right.

For the record, I always shop locally, even if it costs me extra, unless the product is something i can't get locally.

[Stephen Musial]

This is the sign at a local welding shop:

Hourly Rate: 90.00
Hourly Rate If You Watch: 100.00
Hourly Rate if You Help 125.00
Hourly Rate If You Tried To Do It Yourself First: 150.00

[paul cottingham]

We used to joke that if your teenager "who know a lot about computers" had already tried to fix it, our rate doubled.

We weren't really kidding.

[Jim Becker]

David, if the customer didn't return everything he got, then he shouldn't get the full refund, even if you have to pursue that via the credit card company. (assuming that's how it was paid for) Fair is fair.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The old axiom about wealthy people being tight wads (or knowing the value of a dollar) is entirely true.

No one I know who made themselves wealthy is going to pass up an opportunity to save a few bucks.

As I recall a popular US president donated a few pairs of his used underwear to a charity and wrote off more than a hundred grand in taxes.
I guess they were boxers.

If I tried that I'd get audited before I mailed in the tax exemption form

But a popular president known far and wide for his exceptional behavior claiming his used underwear was worth hundreds of thousands didn't raise an eyebrow at the IRS.

The point being that the guy was already wealthy and didn't need the dough. But, he was not so foolish that he would pass up an opportunity to save a few bucks on his taxes. Even if it does look pretty bad.

[Orion Henderson]

Very interesting thread. We all seek value. Those whose working lives are separated from the profit and losses of the business world tend to-not all of course-forget that somewhere someone has to make a profit for everyone to make a living. This is not just picking on people who are gov't workers, teachers, etc, but many cubicle dwellers have long since forgotten, or never really knew, that at some level their company has to turn a profit to survive and ultimately pay them. the Makita drill bit bag-that is just stealing. People return incomplete orders or damaged goods to me with some regularity. It just doesn't matter to them. Fortunately they mail them in so we can give partial credit if appropriate. Many of my competitors simply send the items back to them. I have never done that in the interest of PR and future business, but it is tempting sometimes.

As far as labor rates and how much you charge it varies. I charge $60/hour for shop labor-including materials. I charge a bit more for blacksmith labor. That is how we determine our pricing on items made here. I pay more to my accountant for her labor than I charge for our time. But that is the rate. She has minimal overhead but high skill. Skill, competition, and overhead all determine the labor rate-whether it be the Quik-E-Mart clerk or a doctor. For printing as the example I use a combination of local, internet, and far away printers (Canada) depending on what I need and what quality I need. I suppose it is not fair to my local catalog printer that I went to Canada. But would it be fair to me or my employees to spend an extra 20K on the catalog to print locally? My employees who want, and deserve, raises wouldn't think so. My customers who ultimately pay for my catalog surely don't think so. I found value. Simple as that.

[Adam Cavaliere]

We all want Nordstrom service and Wal-Mart prices; we are doing ourselves in. For an equal product or quality of service it only makes sense to get the best value. What I find disturbing is folks who get upset when their $10 internet printing job doesn't equal a $50 local job ;-)

Very well put!

[Leo Graywacz]

Sometimes cheap people really don't have the money.....and then there are people who are truly just plain old cheap. The old axiom is true...You get what you pay for. And for these people it usually bites them in the wallet down the line.

[Jim Rimmer]

Probably just some poor schmuck who wanted to build a super-strong mailbox...
:confused:

[Pat Germain]

One positive trend I've noticed from our current economic situation is an improvement in customer service. A couple of years ago, almost every person I dealt with at a retail store or restaurant was a well-meaning, but completely clueless, high school kid.

Being empty nesters, Mrs. Pat and I eat out regularly. I began to notice the service was getting better and better at the restaurants we frequented. Then I realized the staff were no longer high school kids. They were mature and experienced. Sadly, I assume many of them lost their previous jobs or had to go back to work to keep their families going. But it sure is nice to deal with people who know what they're doing! And yes, I'm a very good tipper.

You're always going to run into tight-wad clowns who will go to extreme measures to save a dime. I think we should just ignore them. There are still a lot of people in this world who appreciate good service and will pay for it. We should work on building relationships with those people and focus on them. It's interesting that service providers in very niche markets often take customers only by referral. They don't want to deal with those tight-wad clowns. Good for them!

My insurance agent is a friend of mine. We were friends before he became an insurance agent. When he started his business, he asked me if he could give me a quote for covering my home and vehicles. I told him he certainly could. I was happy to help my friend. And, by golly, it turned out he could save me some money to boot. I'm now his longest-served customer. I could probably save a few dollars here and there by switching to another company. But my friend provides me service no other insurer could. And that's priceless.

Our culture has devolved into worshipping the "good deal". If I have a good relationship with a quality service provider, some clown will come along and say, "You idiot, I paid less than you did!". If his only objective in life is to save a few dimes, his life will be less abundant than mine. I think I'm still coming out ahead even if I pay a little extra for good service. Maybe more people will start to realize this as our economy, and our lives, slow down a bit.

[John Schreiber]

. . .Am I wrong, or is that extremely arrogant? Would you be offended if someone told you that they saved 75% over your cost by going to the internet, and then handed you a bill for $130 per hour?

Just curious and opening up a discussion while a job is running (bored).
I see three factors here. First, I'm willing to spend a bit more to support local businesses which provide good customer services and just for the pleasure of associating with quality people. But, I'm not willing to pay 400% more (the other side of 75% off).

Second, if this guy is charging $130/hour and he's getting business, he is charging what the market will bear. If he's making a killing, other people are going to enter the business and if they can charge less, that will drive the prices down. If the guy charging $70 for his printing services is not providing a better service and better quality than somebody charging $17.50, then he's not going to be in business long.

Third, both the local printer and the Internet printer are businesses trying to make a buck. I'll bet the Internet printer is using more expensive equipment and different techniques and higher volume so that they can make a profit selling at 75% less.

I'm not a 100% free market guy, but I see this as a place where the free market is exactly what is needed to make the world better. I couldn't be angry at the guy.

[Brent Smith]

There are always two sides to everything. On the one hand we have the consumer who is trying to make his/her dollar stretch as far as possible by buying at the lowest price possible for merchandise/service that they can live with. On the other hand is the merchant/service provider who wants to get as much for his/her product/service as they can. The funny thing is that almost everyone is both of these individuals. We all want to make as much as possible, while giving up as little of it as possible.

Things become a problem when, in the consumer guise, people start trying to take advantage of the merchant/service provider. David recalled a perfect example of his customer who returned merchandise minus the "free" gift. Others have brought up the point that some service people/clerks have been rude or indifferent to them at times. All it takes is one bore like David's customer to turn a person off to giving friendly service for that day.

I used to have a customer at my store who made in excess of $500,000, but bought on the internet if he realized a savings of even 10%. The kicker with this guy was that he would come into the store, taking up sales peoples time, to kick the tires and get all the info he could before clicking on the buy button online. Eventually, the staff got wise to him and started casually ignoring him when other people came into the store. He had the nerve to call me and complain about the lack of personal service he was getting. I looked up his purchases over the previous 6 months and pointed out that $0 spent didn't qualify him for exulted customer status and that perhaps calling the CS line at his online store of choice would give him more satisfaction. His response was that they only took orders and didn't know anything about the merchandise, and that he would have to leave his phone# and wait for a callback to talk to someone who could answer his questions. A perfect example of someone who wanted to keep his cake, but eat it too!

[James Mooney]

I think it all comes down to expectations and values.

When I grew up in Ireland in the 70's, having a roast chicken was a treat reserved for the occasional Sunday. It was a treat because, apart from being delicious, it was relatively expensive and unaffordable to have more frequently. Today, like everyone else, I can go into any supermarket and expect to pick up two chickens for approx $2.99 on 'special offer' (seemingly a permanent offer!).

What occurs to me is that whilst $2.99 is very cheap and affordable, is it really good value in the overall scheme of things? Well first off it doesn't taste anything like as good as what a chicken used to taste like. You can hardly blame the chicken for that! Nor the local farmer - typically he's only getting approx 50¢ per bird. The meat processors get approx $1.50 and the retailer gets from $2.00 per bird. The numbers don't add up do they! That's because the 2 for $2.99 birds are shipped in (to Ireland) from Thailand. If you want a locally produced bird you have to pay at least $4.50 including taxes.

The two questions that need to be asked are:
First, if the farmer is only getting 50¢ per bird is it possible to make ends meet without impacting on animal husbandry/best practices, the quality of feed and subsequent quality of product? In other words, is it really good value or does it fill a need? And as consumers what values do we place on the quality of the products we buy?

Second, are our expectations too high? We have come to expect to be able to afford to eat chicken daily if we so choose - and discard the leftovers, but is this sustainable and are we indirectly suffering from these expectations.

There are countless examples to be seen - can a printed T-shirt sold for $2 have been produced without someone somewhere getting a raw deal? etc. etc.

Apologies for the long post/rant but I think there is a lot out of kilter in our society due to unrealistic expectations and forsaken values. If people took a moment to think before they bought it would go a long way!

[Darius Ferlas]

$130 hourly rate for one man gang IT services?
Peanuts. Even though IT equipment, development tools, licenses etc are not exactly cheap and all that it will to be upgraded roughly every year.

If you hire a company expect to pay $200 to $400 per hour.

Now, how about a lawyer at $300 per hour? And all a lawyer needs is a $0.99 pen ;)

[Mike Henderson]

Now, how about a lawyer at $300 per hour? And all a lawyer needs is a $0.99 pen ;)
And a very expensive education.

Mike

[Heather Thompson]

I think it all comes down to expectations and values.

When I grew up in Ireland in the 70's, having a roast chicken was a treat reserved for the occasional Sunday. It was a treat because, apart from being delicious, it was relatively expensive and unaffordable to have more frequently. Today, like everyone else, I can go into any supermarket and expect to pick up two chickens for approx $2.99 on 'special offer' (seemingly a permanent offer!).

What occurs to me is that whilst $2.99 is very cheap and affordable, is it really good value in the overall scheme of things? Well first off it doesn't taste anything like as good as what a chicken used to taste like. You can hardly blame the chicken for that! Nor the local farmer - typically he's only getting approx 50¢ per bird. The meat processors get approx $1.50 and the retailer gets from $2.00 per bird. The numbers don't add up do they! That's because the 2 for $2.99 birds are shipped in (to Ireland) from Thailand. If you want a locally produced bird you have to pay at least $4.50 including taxes.

The two questions that need to be asked are:
First, if the farmer is only getting 50¢ per bird is it possible to make ends meet without impacting on animal husbandry/best practices, the quality of feed and subsequent quality of product? In other words, is it really good value or does it fill a need? And as consumers what values do we place on the quality of the products we buy?

Second, are our expectations too high? We have come to expect to be able to afford to eat chicken daily if we so choose - and discard the leftovers, but is this sustainable and are we indirectly suffering from these expectations.

There are countless examples to be seen - can a printed T-shirt sold for $2 have been produced without someone somewhere getting a raw deal? etc. etc.

Apologies for the long post/rant but I think there is a lot out of kilter in our society due to unrealistic expectations and forsaken values. If people took a moment to think before they bought it would go a long way!


James,

Bless you for this reply, it seems that you are a very knowledgeable poster, wish more here on the Creek as well as the world saw things as you do. I watch a program on PBS (public broardcast system) called e2, it talks about world impact based on profit issues, this should be required for all people to watch worldwide. The show talks about food production (as you have), human importance, transportation, urban growth, architechture 2030, clearing the air, etc. If anyone is interested I will be happy to provide links. It is my belief that if people truely understand the world, it wil not be cheap but better and sustainable.

Heather

[Darius Ferlas]

And a very expensive education.

Mike
Which leads us to the next question.
Why do law profs make so much? ;)

I guess the answer would have to be an exercise in recursion ;)

[Stephen Musial]

:confused:

'twas the Great Mailbox Debate of ought-ought that Mr. Eisan instigated.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_thread/thread/5d8b4330e6b500c/9baca96601393a29?hl=en&q=fortress+mailbox&lnk=ol&