Planes and a Few Things to Look For

[Jim Koepke]

Someone asked about what to look for when shopping for planes on eBay and other places where rust accumulates.

Here are a few musings about Stanley/Bailey planes. I am not too familiar with other makers. Maybe someone who is could add some information about Sargent, Miller's Falls, Union and many other makers of quality planes.

When I am out in the wild hunting rust, one thing I always consider is how much work will be needed on any item being considered. Looking for missing and broken parts is also important. If possible, the plane is dismantled and threads are checked to make sure they will not be a problem. Repairing threads with JB Weld has worked for me so far. Getting the taps to rethread is a bit of a challenge, but it is possible.

Where are the deals?

All over the place. Antique shops and malls. Always ask about tools. Sometimes they are hiding. Have had a few shopkeepers tell me there aren't any in the shop, but they have some at home or know someone that wants to sell.

eBay will be covered later.

Estate, yard, garage sales and flea markets are also good places to look. My brother makes a bit of his living doing this. One of his tips, when looking for tools, look in the garage and out buildings. He also says to look in the drawers and cabinets. It is amazing how most people will not open a closed door. Look behind things. Focus, don't just gaze. Sometimes, the good deals are hiding right out in the open, hanging on a wall or sitting on a shelf.

When I am hunting, a few tools come along with me. A magnifier, a screw driver, a small pair of pliers and a small piece of 220 sandpaper. There is also always a tape measure and a small pocket knife in my pocket. When it is remembered, my telescoping dental mirror also comes along. It is handy for looking on top of high shelves and behind things.

The screw driver should be hefty enough to dismantle a plane. Always ask the seller if it is OK before dismantling a plane. In some places, this may not be practical. An estate sale is a bad place to dismantle anything. Also, if there are more tools, it might be better to gather and pay. I sometimes have a five gallon plastic bucket to use like a shopping bag when gathering up stuff. Often, the seller will just look into the bucket and give a good price for the whole lot.

The sandpaper is used for testing rust for depth of damage.

If you want to get serious about buying used tools, learning about rust is important. One should study the different qualities of rust so the damage done can be determined just by how it looks. There are many depths of rust from just a light surface dusting, a light patina, a heavy surface rust and then the blooms and scales of rust that indicate deep pits and damage. Remember, rust never sleeps.

A magnifier should be in the 5 - 10X range. Comes in handy when looking for cracks around the mouth and in the wood.

IS OLDER BETTER?

Not always. Many feel the golden age of Stanley planes was from about 1907 to 1930. My preference is for planes from this period and earlier. The planes from before this period are often a little less costly.

Most of this is personal preference. My experience is with Stanley/Bailey planes. There are many other fine planes available, I am not very familiar with them.

Many people like the planes Stanley made during WW II. The casting is a little heavier.

My preference is for short knobs, others may prefer tall knobs.

THINGS TO CONSIDER...

Do you want to have a matched set? Do you want all the same brand? Does it matter if they are all different types and makes?

I like Stanley/Bailey planes because parts are readily available. There are also a lot of broken ones on the market that can be bought cheap for spare parts if that is your style.

BUYING FROM eBay

Always check the shipping cost. Sometimes it pays to ask. My usual note to the seller mentions that the shipping calculator is not working or giving numbers that do not seem right. Some sellers will then give a lower quote on shipping. If they reply $6 or $7 dollars, you can bet when the auction closes it will be $7.

It helps to know the sizes and prices for flat rate Express Mail packages. Then you can judge for yourself what the price should be.

Because eBay auctions do not stay around as long as this thread might, the images from the auctions mentioned in this post have been saved here.

These examples were found by searching eBay for > Stanley 4 plane <.

The best first:

122979 122978
This is a #4-1/2 type 11, all the other planes are #4s. This has many things I like, short knob and from the era of Stanley planes I like.

This seems to be a pretty good plane. A little rust on the sole, but it looks like it would clean up fairly easy. The tote is cracked, but that looks to be repairable. The blade looks a little short, but the 2-3/8 inch blades are not much longer than the chip breaker. A little more than 3 days left, no bids and with shipping comes to a little less than $40. My wife and I are both glad that I am not in the market currently.


122980

The Defiance by Stanley was an inexpensive plane when it was marketed. Notice the tote is a flat sided piece of stained hardwood. Notice also, there is no frog. The blade rests on supports cast into the base.

122982

This is another of the lower cost planes Made by Stanley. Notice the lateral adjuster. It is a one piece construction that is bent to fit in the blade slot. Also notice the blade length on this one. The 2" blades should reach well beyond he end of he chip breaker. Some of the newer blades are a little shorter overall, but when buying, it is good to ask for another picture or how much is left.

It is a good idea to study the different blades with the chip breakers attached to get an idea of the blade length left. This is a blade from after the 1950s I believe. Notice the rounded corners at the top.

122981

Actually, this plane looks like it could be a type 10 or 11. With shipping it is about $17 and there are no bids. Notice the frog adjusting screw. There should be a plate in the groove around the head. It could be there if someone took the plane apart and did not put it back together correctly. This is one that I would ask the seller for some pictures of the area behind the frog to see what dates are there and to see if all the parts were there. It would also be a good idea to ask for pictures of the sole, particularly around the mouth and ask about the blade marking. This could be a good candidate for restoration or it could need too many parts, it all depends on the buyer.

To be continued...

jim

[Jim Koepke]

All this listing said is:

"vintage plane, stanley sw

Here is a very old plane."

122983 122984

I will always remember showing someone a penny from the 1960s. This was in the early 1990s. I was showing it to them because most of the pennies in circulation were zinc coated with copper, this started in 1982. He looked at the date and said, "Man this thing is old." So old is all relative.

This auction, 360168848745 , closed at $9 plus $11 for shipping with one bid.

Notice the wood. It is a light hardwood with black paint. Flat sides on the tote.

The picture is not clear enough to see the lateral lever to tell if this is a Stanley or a Millers Falls plane. If it is an early Stanley, it has the wrong wood. The lever cap also looks wrong. Notice the front knob does not seem to go with the screw holding it in place.

Notice how the blade is mushroomed. Either someone did not know how to adjust the blade or they were using it for a chisel. The blade also seems to have a little pitting.

The frog, if Stanley, is from an early type, straight sides. The pictures do not make it clear enough to tell if this was marketed as a Stanley/Bailey or if it is one that was made for sales as a "house brand" in hardware stores. It does look like a large adjuster. There are no visible markings on the base.
This could be a Frankenplane. It could be one with which I am not familiar.
This listing has enough problems for me to avoid this one.

If more is found on which to comment, it will be added.

Hopefully, someone else will share what they "see" or want to see when looking at old rust.

jim

[jerry nazard]

Jim,

A most propitious posting!! You have recently gone to a great deal of time and trouble to make a series of very helpful posts. I, for one, say many thanks!

-Jerry

[Billy Chambless]

This should be required reading.

[Keith Young]

Jim,

Thanks for all the great info on what to look for and avoid on ebay.

[John Keeton]

Excellent! Thanks, Jim, for sharing the wisdom and experience you have accumulated in this arena. I look forward to the additional posts.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Nicely done Jim. I'm sure many of the folks here will find your commentary useful. Thank you.

[scott spencer]

Great post Jim! That's some excellent info.

Regarding information on other planes like Millers Falls and Record, there are a couple of good websites with useful info.

Millers Falls has some very nice older planes, but like Stanley, they also had some economy planes that probably aren't worth much time, money, or effort. Best to bone up on the markings so you can identify the differences, though many of the economy planes had gray paint and decals. It's also important to note that MF's numbering system is very different from Stanley's...(MF #8 = Stanley #3, MF 9 = S #4, MF 10 = S 4-1/2, MF 11 = S 5-1/4, MF 14 = S 5, MF 18 = S 6, MF22 = S7, etc).
OldToolheaven (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://oldtoolheaven.com/bench/benchimg/beopener.jpg&imgrefurl=http://oldtoolheaven.com/bench/bench.htm&usg=__13rscC7jFptmQv5FaQR1jGjBDNg=&h=289&w=290&sz=41&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=IsDWgof93nisxM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmillers%2Bfalls%2Bplane%26gbv%3D2%26h l%3Den%26sa%3DG) has lots of good info on Millers Falls planes and tools.

Record also has really good planes....useful sites:
Record-planes.com (http://www.record-planes.com/)
Recordhandplanes.com (http://recordhandplanes.com/)

[Joel Goodman]

I've had good luck with pre WW2 planes with well used (short) irons. It seems to me that if a plane was not used much maybe there was a reason -- perhaps it had a problem or two. Perhaps this is silly. Does anyone else share this view?

[scott spencer]

I've had good luck with pre WW2 planes with well used (short) irons. It seems to me that if a plane was not used much maybe there was a reason -- perhaps it had a problem or two. Perhaps this is silly. Does anyone else share this view?

It could also be from lack of knowing how to set one up, or a gift given to someone who simply didn't use handplanes, or a purchase by someone who passed away unexpectedly, or an impulse purchase of a plane not really needed (though not likely from that era!), etc.

[David Keller NC]

One other thought to add to Jim's post. As he's noted, the Stanleys on e-bay that don't get many (or any) bids are usually the ones that have something wrong with them. The "wrong" might not make any difference to a user whatsoever, but it does to a collector, and the price goes down proportionately. Rarer Stanleys fetch much more money, sometimes out of all proportion to their usefullness in the shop. A #9 Stanley miter plane, for example, will bring about $1400 if it's in good shape and has all original parts, so you're better off buying a L-N new clone, or perhaps finding another alternative to a shoot-board plane.

If you're looking for superb users that collectors have little interest in (and they're therefore a lot cheaper), Sargent's VBM brand are very, very well made planes. The "VBM" stands for "Very Best Made", and while that might be a little bit of an exaggeration, it wasn't far off the mark. I've found them to be the equal of Stanleys in every way, except that collectors want things to be branded "Stanley", or to a lesser extent "Millers Falls", and Sargent runs a very distant 3rd or 4th, so even a plane without any rust pitting, all original parts, and a near full-length blade will go for 1/2 to 1/3 what a Stanley example will go for.

[Jim Koepke]

I've had good luck with pre WW2 planes with well used (short) irons. It seems to me that if a plane was not used much maybe there was a reason -- perhaps it had a problem or two. Perhaps this is silly. Does anyone else share this view?

This is one of the many things to consider when looking at a used plane. My dad owned a few planes, but his were mostly acquired either through the family or in one of his many dealings and trades. He only used them occasionally. One that was his grandfather's, a Union #4, did have a short blade and was a great user. I handed it and a couple of others over to one of my brothers to keep with our family heirlooms.

Often, a plane would be bought by a homeowner with a hard to close door. The plane would come home from the hardware store, knock a shaving or two off the door and be put on a shelf for the next time it could be of use. Many of these make up the mint condition planes that are often for sale today. This was not as likely to be the case before WW II. In the early part of the 20th century, people who wanted to work had to be versatile if there was not a lot of industry in their neck of the woods. Often, a laborer would have tools of many types and trades in their arsenal.


One other thought to add to Jim's post. As he's noted, the Stanleys on e-bay that don't get many (or any) bids are usually the ones that have something wrong with them. The "wrong" might not make any difference to a user whatsoever, but it does to a collector, and the price goes down proportionately.

[snip]

If you're looking for superb users that collectors have little interest in (and they're therefore a lot cheaper), Sargent's VBM brand are very, very well made planes. The "VBM" stands for "Very Best Made", and while that might be a little bit of an exaggeration, it wasn't far off the mark. I've found them to be the equal of Stanleys in every way, except that collectors want things to be branded "Stanley", or to a lesser extent "Millers Falls", and Sargent runs a very distant 3rd or 4th, so even a plane without any rust pitting, all original parts, and a near full-length blade will go for 1/2 to 1/3 what a Stanley example will go for.

Many users feel that Sargent made better planes than Stanley. The one Union plane that I have owned was a bit nicer because of a thicker blade.

I think Stanley is so common because they were more aggressive in marketing their tools and in the acquisition of other tool makers.

The fact that there were so many of them is one of the reasons for using them in my shop. With a lot of them out and about, there are a lot of broken ones for parts.

Try finding a lever cap for one of the brands like Winchester or Vaughn & Bushnell. To my knowledge, these are very well made planes. Their rarity works against them when a replacement part is needed.

One of the reasons my Union plane was put into the family heirloom collection was there not being much possibility of finding a proper replacement blade. Spare the user, spoil a family heirloom...

jim

[Jim Koepke]

This is a #5 size plane from an unknown maker.

Here is another questionable plane. The problem with these to the unsuspecting eBay bidder is some sellers know nothing about planes. If one of these shows up with a Stanley blade, to them, that makes it a Stanley.

The pictures are not clear enough or from an angle that would positively identify the frog to be stamped steel, but this does have that look. Also notice the blade adjuster mechanism. The adjuster nut looks like thin steel. The yolk also looks odd. Finally, look where the lever is attached to the cap. Not only is the rivet rounded at both ends, the top view makes the walls of the lever cap look like sheet metal.

123017

The tote looks like it was designed to be turned out on a machine in 30 seconds or less. Also note where the surface is chipped it looks like light wood under a dark coating.

123018

There is an evolution of Stanley totes. In the early years, the top of the handle has a large tongue and the top front does not curve on the rise. Later the totes seem to be made to better fit a users hand. Finally the changes seem to be made to cut cost.

Stanley totes could be a short history of American manufacturing. It started with a new idea. As the product was marketed, there was consideration of making the item work better and "fit" better for the buyer. Then came the period of cutting another half cent from the cost of production. After all, when a million of them are being made, a half cent becomes $5000. And that is how we got into a race to the bottom.

As I find 'em, I'll post 'em...

jim

[Richard Dooling]

Excuse me if I am repeating something but I would add a magnet to the list of tools to have on hand while hunting.

I've come across brass plated steel and aluminum frogs.

I have three Sargents and a couple of Millers Falls, all of which are easily as good as my Stanleys. The Sargents in particular have better irons.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is a candidate for the study of rust. The sole on this plane looks to have rust on top of rust on top of more rust. This is about the lightest kind of rust that will leave craters when the rust is removed chemically or mechanically. Note the rust's colors. I do not know the metallurgy of rust. Having to deal with it over the years is my only experience.

123019

Other things to notice on this example are the flat sided tote also has a short toe. Notice how the casting is ribbed. This looks like it captures the tote to keep it from twisting in use.

123020

The lateral lever looks like a one piece stamping. Another blade with a round corners at the top. Also to be seen in this image is the blade through the hole in the chip breaker. It looks as if the large hole at the bottom of the slot can be seen here. This can be a help in determining the amount of blade left.

123021

DOH! I just noticed after looking at this that the depth adjuster nut & screw appear to be missing.

Sorry for the fuzzy pictures, but I didn't take them.

If this was selling for a nickel at a yard sale, it would still be left behind.


Well, for a nickel the blade might get a look. But there are enough good 2" blades in my shop already.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Excuse me if I am repeating something but I would add a magnet to the list of tools to have on hand while hunting.

I've come across brass plated steel and aluminum frogs.

I have three Sargents and a couple of Millers Falls, all of which are easily as good as my Stanleys. The Sargents in particular have better irons.

Doh! I didn't think about the magnet. A small screw driver on my key ring is magnetized and gets used for that.

A person I used to work with/for was a blacksmith and had a small assortment of things he always carried with him for testing and inspecting things he found. Some of my hunting habits were learned from him.

I think Sargent planes had the "Bedrock" set up before it was adopted by Stanley. Not sure of this. As I have said before, many users feel Sargent built a better plane. In my opinion, the Union plane I owned was slightly better than the Stanley planes of the same size. Stanley planes are good planes, others are undoubtably better. In the end, it is what they can do for the person using them.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

This piece looks like light rust that will clean up without leaving deep pits or craters. It looks like the plane was use for a couple of passes or slid across a surface with rust on the sole.

123025

If I saw this in the flesh, a bit of abrasion would be used on the darker areas just to make sure.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

OK, for those of you who just can't get enough of this junk, here is some more...

Planes that are junk that is.

One thing to look for when buying a plane is cracks. Cracks can be a deal breaker anywhere on a plane, but especially be aware of cracks around the mouth. Anyone can drop a plane and cause a crack or chip in a place that does not really matter. A few of my planes have chunks missing from the side rails at the toe or heel. It doesn't matter for a user. A file will take off any sharp spots. At the toe, on the side where the heel of the hand rests, it can be more comfortable than an unaltered plane.

Cracks at the mouth are usually a sign of rough use or even abuse. Low angle block planes can crack at the mouth when the plane is taking too thick a shaving. Bench planes can have this happen from having the frog set improperly and the lever cap screw being set too tight. Planes from high school shop classes are notorious for being abused. Teen agers have a lot of extra energy and hormones running around their system and while they are being held captive in a shop class, they will take it out on anything and everything. Sometime just plain old fashioned inexperience can be the culprit.

123050

Now you see it...

123051

Now you don't...

This is a typical crack pattern in a side rabbet plane. It can be from too much torque on the blade hold down screw.

Notice the vertical groove next to the hole with nothing in it?

This is for a depth stop. If it has accommodations for a depth stop, it should come with a depth stop. I have not seen anywhere near as many depth stops as I have seen side rabbets missing them. I am not sure of even seeing one depth stop up for auction. If one needs to make some money, coming up with replacement depth stops and screws for these might be a money making venture.

If it has a depth stop, get a look under the depth stop to make sure there are not any cracks being hidden. The John Walter's book says the depth stop did not appear until 1929-1935. Sorry, I have a pair that look to be made before 1919 with depth stops. Hey, if we don't make mistakes, how are we supposed to learn. Besides, maybe he will come out with a revised edition of his book. Everyone is hoping for that, heck, I might buy more than one copy.

If you are going to buy a pair of these, even if you have to do it one at a time, make sure to ask the seller if the screw that holds the front piece on can be removed and the nose piece removed. For some reason, these screws freeze up and are impossible to remove. I have seen this on ones that look to be mint in the original box. Being able to flip the front nose is an important function when making stopped dados. Make sure the blade is seated before tightening the blade holding screw. If it is not bedded and snaps against the base when the screw is being torqued, it is possible to crack the metal. It is very thin at this point.
From my experience, these are a pain to use without a depth stop. That is why it is my belief that Stanley added depth stops well before making them for 30+ years.

The depth stop for the 98 & 99 are different. The thumb screw that holds the blade and the thumb screw that holds the depth stop are also different lengths and usually have different size wings, though they have the same threads.

jim

More to come...

[John Keeton]

Jim, this thread is a treasure of info, and needs to be marked as a sticky - or, at the very least, included in the archived stuff. Thanks, again, for the significant effort here.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, this thread is a treasure of info, and needs to be marked as a sticky - or, at the very least, included in the archived stuff. Thanks, again, for the significant effort here.

Thanks for the complement. I was thinking of PMing Zahid when this is finished. Of course, when out in my shop today it came to me to also include a page on the #45. Then, there may be others of interest. My thoughts were that I'm going to run out of planes to look at pretty soon. Then another real train wreck was found on eBay. My intention is to bring that one up after the next post on cracks around the mouth. It is almost a laugher, hopefully no one is going to bid on it.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Some cracks are difficult to see. This #4 plane was in a shop for $7.50. The shop was in Oregon, so there was no sales tax. The parts were worth that much so I took a chance. It did have a bit of rust and pitting. The tote was OK and my thought was the tote was worth the price. Besides, it was a type 6 and a day earlier I had scored a 4-1/2 type 6 also in Oregon. There were a few other planes, a #140 and an early #65-1/2, in the shop I was buying, so the guy took a few bucks off the total.

Notice the difference between the two pictures. The only difference is the lighting.

123052

123053

A shift in the lighting can change a lot of things. The first image looks pretty good. The second reveals a lot of the pitting shadows. The crack detail is taken from the second image.

This crack was not visible until the sole was lapped. It is very small and does not seem to affect the use. It is probably better to pass on something like this unless you want parts. This is what convinced me to carry a little sandpaper with me. In fact, tucking a small piece in the wallet may be a good idea.

123054

The crack is barely visible in the photograph that shows it the best. The close up was actually a screen capture from using the system software to enlarge and capture the image. This is something I use all the time when looking at images on the internet. If you have a MAC and want to do this it is done by holding down the Command, Option and + key all at the same time. Move the curser to the edges of the screen to move the image. To get back to normal hold down the Command, Option and - key. To capture the picture, Shift, Command 4 will produce a cross hair. Move this to the start corner, click and drag to the opposite corner wanted then release. A PNG file should appear on the desktop with a tittle like Picture 1. The enlarge feature is very handy when looking at things on eBay and other sites.
If someone can tell us how to do this on a PC it will surely be much appreciated by all the PC users. At least by me, sometimes I need to use a PC.

123055

Here is a plane from a high school shop class. Those cracks look worse when holding the plane in your hands. At least one eBayer is always photographing their wares at strange angles. Maybe they are also taking pictures for an art photography class or something.

123056

The usually do not reveal much information about the condition of what is being sold. One time they were asked for other pictures. The reply was those were the only pictures available. Strange, most of their auctions have a half dozen or more artsy (the next word that comes to mind may not be allowed) pictures, yet there aren't any straight on? Come on!!!

jim

I have seen a train wreck and the next plane actually looks worse...

[Jim Koepke]

This is what the listing said, first the title.

ANTIQUE 1910 STANLEY BAILEY PLANE NO. 5 CORRUGATED RARE

Then the write up.

WOW! WHAT*A FIND!**This is what i believe to be*a nice vintage Stanley/Bailey No. 5 Plane in good condition, has been used and has some light rusting in spots, I took plenty of pics., it could be polished up pretty nice if you are a collector or used the way it is,*It measures 14 X 2 3/8 inches. *It also has the corrugated sole. It says " bailey "*on the front.*It says Stanley the blade holder. By the thumb wheel, under it says U.S.PAT APR 19.-10*This tool works as far as i can tell in every way. the front wood handle is in great shape, the back wood handle has a crack in the middle and a chip on the top, (see pictures). please see pictures as they are a big part of this description, i am not an expert on antique tools but will answer all questions as best i can and welcome additional information!! I HAVE OTHER ANTIQUE PLANES ON AUCTION AND IN MY EBAY STORE AND WILL COMBINE SHIPPING!! IF YOU WOULD LIKE ADDITIONAL PICTURES PLEASE ASK!!

This seller has over 500 auctions active at this time. Almost all have buy it now prices. The buy it now on this item is only $45 + shipping.
This person is not lying when they say they are not an expert on antique tools. Surely if they knew about planes, they would have included information that this was a Sweet Hart era plane in hopes of getting more bidders.

This plane is rust ugly. "has some light rusting in spots"? I would hate to see what this person considers moderate or heavy rust.

123057

This is really bad rust, it looks to be scale in places. Scale rust is the kind that takes flakes of the base metal with it when it falls off.

123059

This detail serves to show what actual rust damage may look like in a photograph. Look along the front edge of the casting. Some of the rusted areas appear to have metal missing. Same with the side rail, especially on the left.

Almost everything is wrong with this plane. There is a hang hole in the toe. That was almost missed due to my amazement that someone actually found this and paid to list it on eBay. "the front wood handle is in great shape." Well, at least the half of it that is there is in OK shape. As far as they can tell, this plane works in every way? I have made shavings with some pretty bad blades, but the blades all had enough left to put a bevel on them.

123061

By the way, the cap iron is wrong for this plane. This one has a darkened back. That was done away with after type 11 if my memory is serving well.

It is difficult to see for sure, but the cleaner of the two frog screws looks to be incorrect. It doesn't look to be the screw that is missing at the tote.
123058

123060
Finally, what train wreck of a plane wouldn't be complete without a lever cap with a big chip in the lower edge. One side of it can be seen in the image with the frog.
Can only include five pictures in a post. This plane could have used a couple more to show how bad it really is, but one is really enough. Hopefully though it will help folks to learn a bit more about rust and how it looks in pictures. Surely, no one would take this home if they saw it live. It would have to be real cheap for me to consider it for the few good parts. But then again, I would have to dispose of the bad parts.

jim

[David Keller NC]

"If someone can tell us how to do this on a PC it will surely be much appreciated by all the PC users. At least by me, sometimes I need to use a PC."

There are a couple of simple, quick-and-dirty ways to do this on a PC. With the operating system, one can hold down "ctrl-alt" and press the "prt scn" button that's on most keyboards. This will capture a screen shot, and you can then open something like MS Word or just about any photo editing software and select edit>paste to paste a copy into the document. This method, however, is probably the least preferred because it captures a bitmap that is dependent on the resolution of the current display mode - in other words, you can lose a substantial amount of detail.

Alternatively, one can right-click a photo on a web page in I.E., and select either "save picture as" or "copy". The save-picture-as will allow you to save the photo to a file on your hard-drive, which you can then manipulate with photo-editing software to change the contrast, brightness, zoom, etc... The "copy" selection will do basically the same thing as the "prt scn" function, except that the full resolution of the photo as displayed on the web site will be copied to the clipboard.

[Tom Godley]

Tons of great info - Thanks

[Richard Dooling]

One great thread. Thanks Jim. I agree this needs to go into the archives.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks David, I already knew about one of those methods. On the Mac, there are actually 4 system capture methods. Shift, Command 3 takes the entire screen. Add the Control key and it is held on the clip board without making a permanent file. Shift, Command 4 allows the user to select the rectangular area wanted. Adding the Control key again puts it to the clip board. For taking a photo off the internet, most of the time the image can be click dragged to the place one wants to store the image. They all seem to work with the magnification feature.

I have not tried lately, but it wouldn't do video capture from DVDs. There are also some hosted web sites that do not allow for the drag capture method.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

A few things to look for on a Stanley #45 will be covered in this post.

In the group photo, the fences in the fore ground are both of the type which had the knob threaded on to a boss on the fence assembly. In a picture like this, there is no way to tell that one of the knobs is in good condition and has good threads and the other is broken and glued back in place. The glued knob will not come off. This style fence could be installed "backwards" on the rods to extend its reach. Note that the metal is smooth for this purpose.

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The two plane bodies are different. Look at the area above the blade holder wing nut. On the newer (type 16) there is a rib for added strength. Notice that both of these have the slitter depth gauge and the proper screw to hold it in place, a shouldered thumb screw. If a slitter were in place, a point might be visible at the bottom of the depth stop or a second piece of metal could be visible behind the depth stop.

Notice the front depth gauge has a slotted lock screw. It should be the same as the slotted screws holding the rods in place. From this angle, it can not be determined if the knickers are in place. The front depth stop hides them. All of the Stanley #45s use the clover leaf style knicker. They are often listed for sell on eBay. The Stanley #55 (and possibly others) used straight knickers until the SW era. I do not know the exact year. When looking at #55s with an eye toward buying an extra main stock or skate, I always look for the clover leaf knickers. The straight knickers are not offered for sale as often.

Another bit of information... the thumb screws and slotted screws are all 1/4 - 28 size threads. This does not include the fence, fine adjustment screws. The thumb hold on the different screws varies. The #55 has a "shoe" for the central skate that is often missing. The screw on them is missing even more often. The screw that holds the plate in place for the blade lock nut on a #45 and #55 is the same thread as used on the shoe. It may be a thread or two short, but it does the job.

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In the side image, it is possible to see the knicker is missing if one knows where to look. What is more important are the two screws on the fence. The one at the front is the second most often missing part on a the #45, right behind the slitter blade. This screw was located above the central adjustment screw for a short while. I am not sure if the same thread was used after the change, in pictures, the screw does look different. It did not work well in that position and was moved to the front fence rod to lock the adjustable fence. This screw keeps the fence from flexing in use. Also note in this view the auxiliary depth stop screw can be seen under the fence holding thumb screw.

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The detail picture again shows all the screws in place. Also notice the red piece between the metal and rose wood. The fence on the #45 may need to be shimmed in order to be held parallel to the main body.

Often fences have a user added slot for the blade. This was probably done by someone who did not really have an idea about using the plane. There are two holes in the fence assembly that allow the fence to ride lower than the blade when the plane is being used for rabbeting or similar work.

[kazek supinski]

i have just started collecting planes this is very good timeing thank you very much for the info.

[Jim Koepke]

Often on eBay, planes are sold in groups. This may be done by someone just trying to clear out a garage or it could be someone who knows these will not sell by themselves.

Buying a group of planes can be a money saver. It can also be a very bad deal. My worst deal on eBay was a lot of two planes. They were beat up planes from a high school shop class. Of course, the seller didn't say anything about where they came from. Another of life's lessons learned.

Recently, there have been large groups of planes being offered by a seller that specializes in selling of educational surplus. Hopefully I have made my opinion on what to expect from "teenager abuse syndrome" very clear.

Note: my original thought was to do this with one picture. Something appeared that made me change that. Time was not taken to change the text. So, that is why it may seem incorrect in places. That is also why, if a seller will not provide pictures to clear up questions, an auction should be avoided.

This particular grouping does have more pictures, but just one is being used here to show how much one can see from a single view. Often with a group like this, one picture is all that will be shown. OK, something about this listing made me decide to add one more picture at the end.

The last picture in this listing does show a nasty chunk missing from the mouth of the #3. My feelings are mixed on this. What does this indicate? Does the seller know enough about planes to put this in as a gesture of look at this, I am being honest by showing this? A lot of the pictures do not reveal much else about these planes.

Of course, with one Bedrock plane in the mix, the bidding is climbing most likely based on that.

Image quality is good, a back drop is used, this person knows at least a bit about taking pictures. They have experience doing this.
The write up is minimal and includes the, "not being a woodworker myself... sold as is as shown..."

This always gets my senses tingling.

So, here is what can be seen in just one picture.

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The far plane, a #3 has a replacement blade, notice rounded corners. Two other things do not go together on this plane, a short knob and the large brass depth adjuster wheel.

None of the views of the #3 indicate much else except for the one showing the damage that make this a parts plane. When buying parts planes, it is good to be able to date them so it can be determined if they are parts one needs or if they will just end up in the box of too much junk.

The center plane is a #605, I do not know enough to know if this is actually an early Bedrock. I am not sure if anyone else used this same numbering system or if it was Stanley only.

It has a cracked front knob. It has the wrong lever cap. It also has a large depth adjuster which is not correct for this plane. I have replaced a lot of the adjusters on my planes just because the larger nut is a little easier to adjust on the fly. What all this might indicate is a put together plane or what is often referred to as a Frankenplane.

A little more subtle here is the difference between the screw at the tote's toes on this plane and the #5 on the right. That plane also has some problems. Notice the rivet above the screw on the lever cap. That is not a feature of a Stanley lever cap. The knob and handle are also not correct for a Stanley plane of the date/type this one would be.

As is, the #605 might be a good user. To bring it back to original for a collectable user might cost more than buying a type correct #605.

My other thoughts on planes like this is the more incorrect parts one can see makes me wonder how many incorrect OR MISSING parts are hidden.

123162

Looking a little more at this listing, one of the images popped out at me. The picture is "pretty," but it looks like the side of the frog could be a ogee sided frog and not a straight sided frog. The angle of the picture makes it impossible to determine for sure. If this is the case, this is a "Frankenplane" of the worst type, one that likely would not work. The early, round sided, Bedrock planes used screws instead of pins to hold the frog to the bed. This might make it possible to put an incorrect (Bailey) frog in the plane.

Also almost lost in the "pretty" picture is the repair to the tote.

I would want some more pictures that revealed a bit more before placing a bid on this group.

jim

[Joe McMahon]

Jim, excellent post! This definitely needs to be a sticky.

[Jim Koepke]

While looking at some planes on eBay with another Creeker, this lever cap caught my eye and so did the rest of the listing. If when you read this my posts are still appearing on SMC, feel free to ask my opinion about any plane you may be looking at on the internet. Or if you can send me pictures, send me a private message (PM). My current situation allows me to look at pictures and offer my opinions, free of charge or obligation. My wording is careful here in case my situation changes. I do reserve my right to withdraw this offer if it becomes overwhelming.

Hopefully, a piece on Stanley shoulder planes will be finished and posted soon.

This is mostly from a listing for a #4-1/2 Stanley/Bailey plane.

It amazes me a bit that this plane has 5 bidders. The price is low for a #4-1/2, but not that low.

This seller is practicing some honesty, "The body and frog have been nicely repainted and rust is removed from pitted areas of sole and blade."

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Thoughts about my painting skills do not make the words "nicely repainted" pop into my head. But come on, at least I don't paint the blade bed on the frog. Mine are mostly painted because the original is really bad. Since the paint job is for me, not as much care is taken as is required to get a top notch paint job. For top notch work, a clean area is almost required for keeping dust off the work and a drying system is helpful. Most quality coatings require some heat to set up good and hard. Most of my paint jobs have a finger print of two from my finding out the paint hasn't dried yet. Then there is the experimenting with multiple coats and not allowing dry time, etc.

One of these days my goal is to try doing a high quality paint job, but that is another story in the future.

On To The Lever Caps


Nicely repainted seems like an over statement, but at least the rust was removed from the pitted areas. Pits were left behind. Around here, we have a road crew that comes around and fixes things that don't look that bad. Not sure if the lever cap also got a coat of paint, but it does sort of look that way.

The first thing that hit me about this lever cap is the transitional curve from the wide bottom to the narrow top. Stanley lever caps have rounded transitional curves on the early caps then starting with the SW planes, the edge of the curve gets sharper.

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This one looks like a "facet" cut.

The backside is also revealing. First a Stanley cap.

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notice the round "finger" hollows at the top, the hollow areas leading down and curving around the screw do not have parallel sides.

The lever cap on this plane has parallel sides in that area.

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The screw on the chip breaker also looks wrong for a Stanley plane of this era. It looks like it is smooth edged instead of knurled. The head also looks a little tall for a Stanley.

Of course, look at the pits in the blade and the cap iron in the pictures above. Some of the hardware on this also showed signs of pitting/cleaning. The picture of the sole was not real clear, but it also looked like pitting was present.

But hey, the wood looks good!

Here is another thing to watch for on the lever cap. Some sellers do not take extra pictures. Often the edge of the lever cap is hidden from view by the knob or the angle from which the picture was taken.

For some reason a lot of people did not carry screw drivers to the job site in days of old. The first thought was to use the cast lever cap for the screw driver when the blade had to be sharpened. Most people likely learned after the first big chip or maybe the second, maybe for this guy the third time was the charm. This is one of the later lever caps with the square corner transitional curve.

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Until next time,

jim

Being retired is wonderful...
My wife asked me, "what are you going to do today?"
I said, "nothing."
She asked, "isn't that what you did yesterday?"
I said, "yeah, but I didn't get finished."

[John Keeton]

Jim had commented about helping a fellow creeker, and that would be me. He has looked at Lord knows how many pics, and postings, and his comments have been extremely informative, and very helpful in my quest to acquire some rust piles. Of course, there is the overwhelming emotional burden he carries for dragging me down this slope!

Most of my experiences in this short journey have turned out very well. I am beginning to accumulate a good stock of planes to fettle, and will end up with some very good users. But, when one engages long enough in this game, the lessons learned start to pile up.

Jim and I agreed that it might be helpful to post this experience -

The case of “assume” – the unasked question.

We all have heard and know so well what “assuming” does to “u” and “me.” For those that do not know that old adage, PM me!

A Stanley, type 11, 4-½ came up for auction on the bay. This was the description of the plane in question -


STANLEY # 4 1/2 HEAVY DUTY WIDE HAND PLANE 3 PAT. DATES KNOB IS OKAY, TOTE IS BROKE ON THE TOP AND NEAR THE BOTTOM, THIS IS VERY DIRTY, BUT I SEE NO CRACK OR REPAIRS TO CAST MEDAL.


And, this was the pic of the sole -
http://i.ebayimg.com/17/!B(OQhWQBGk~$(KGrHgoH-C0EjlLlt+dzBKbMiuF,C!~~_3.JPG

There was some obvious discoloration around the mouth, so I pulled this pic into Photoshop Elements, and increased the contrast, and lightened it to see if I could tell more about it. There appeared to be rust that had formed, but it did not appear to be bad enough that Evaporust would not take care of it. It was not a high-resolution pic, and getting good detail was difficult.

I DID NOT ASK THE SELLER ANY QUESTIONS!! I “assumed” that I had reached the correct assessment of this condition.

I bought the plane for $37, plus shipping. There were 10 bids, from 9 bidders including me. Upon receipt, this was the actual appearance of the sole –

124816
124817


Someone had taken either an angle grinder, or grinding wheel to the area around the mouth. The plane is not salvageable, and is junk. Other than salvaging the knob, and other parts – it is worthless.

The seller has a 3-day return policy. I indicated my desire to return the plane, and explained that I felt the seller should reimburse my shipping cost – both ways. It seems that this would be similar to a latent crack and should be disclosed in the description. None of that negates my failure to fully inquire about the discoloration on the pic of the sole.

Fortunately, the seller did the right thing, and agreed to refund all costs. I have returned the plane.

The moral to this story is to ASK QUESTIONS and assume nothing. I trusted the seller (who had a good history) to accurately describe the plane. His description was accurate - just not complete. I did not perform due diligence on this buy.

[Matt Radtke]

Someone had taken either an angle grinder, or grinding wheel to the area around the mouth. The plane is not salvageable, and is junk. Other than salvaging the knob, and other parts – it is worthless.


Heh. I recognize those pics. I suspect you and I were fighting over that one. Better you than me :D

[Jim Koepke]

John,

Thanks for adding this to the thread.

My thoughts about selling on eBay is that anything I see that may be a problem should be disclosed in my description. The seller in this case has sold other planes and I found a case where he recently bought one. This and some of his descriptions indicates he is not a neophyte in the realm of planes.

As the old sayings go, a half truth can still be a whole lie. Or an omission of fact can be a revelation of deception.

I do not foresee buying too many more tools through eBay, but it makes me feel like one needs to come up with a list of every conceivable question to send to the seller of any potential item that may get my bid.

jim

[jerry nazard]

John,

Too bad about the 4 1/2. The seller did the right thing by refunding the shipping costs. It is fortunate that the driving need on the bay for positive customer feedback fosters an environment of positive customer service. That, at least, has been my experience.

Now, you can start hunting for another Type 11 - a very nice vintage!

-Jerry

[John Keeton]

Heh. I recognize those pics. I suspect you and I were fighting over that one. Better you than me :DMatt, wish you had won, but I was glad to be able to take the hit for you!!:D I am trying to decide if my "parts box" is gaining faster than my fleet of planes:eek:

Jerry, I do like the type 11s, but I have to fight Matt for all of them;) However, I am amazed at the continual flow of hundreds of old Stanleys that come up on the bay - looks like enough for everyone to eventually get what they want.

[jerry nazard]

John,

I'm working on a complete set (minus 1 and 2?) of 11's. Also a complete set of Millers Falls. Generally speaking, the MF planes can stand a bit more tweaking, but turn into solid performers. Several comments by fellow Creekers opine that as appreciation for the MF planes increase, so will the price!

-Jerry

[Matt Radtke]

Matt, wish you had won, but I was glad to be able to take the hit for you!!:D I am trying to decide if my "parts box" is gaining faster than my fleet of planes:eek:

Jerry, I do like the type 11s, but I have to fight Matt for all of them;) However, I am amazed at the continual flow of hundreds of old Stanleys that come up on the bay - looks like enough for everyone to eventually get what they want.

I suspect you and I were fighting over another one, this time 180392910591. And this time, it was my turn to get burned slightly--just got 'er today with a 2" blade a chipbreaker. D'oh. Haven't decided if I should and how much to complain to the seller yet. . .

[Jim Koepke]

I suspect you and I were fighting over another one, this time 180392910591. And this time, it was my turn to get burned slightly--just got 'er today with a 2" blade a chipbreaker. D'oh. Haven't decided if I should and how much to complain to the seller yet. . .

Not sure about complaining doing any good, he claims not to know about rating planes. He does sell a lot of tools for not knowing about them.

The pictures do show that the blade is not only the wrong size, it is much newer than the plane. I was thinking the front knob was wrong, but some of the late type 11s did have a tall knob. The chipped and broken tote looks a little light for rosewood.

Other than that, if it is in good shape, get a new blade and chip breaker and go to town with it.

This is another listing that offers another, "what is wrong with this picture" lesson:

125310

The nickel plating on the fence is bright and shiny. Especially for a knob with that many nicks and look at the thumb screw. It sure is beat looking for such a shiny fence.

125311

Looking at another picture, one can see the detail looks a little mushy. Look especially at the screws holding he rosewood to the fence. Looks like rust under the plating. Almost looks sprayed on, but I am not familiar with a spray paint being that shiny.

Also, this is a type 10 or earlier fence (no fine adjustment screw) mixed with a type 11 or later main casting (rib on top by the blade).

Besides, the sliding section is missing the knicker.

Fortunately for the unsuspecting public, this one has a starting price in the range of what might be expected for a #45 that came with blades.

jim

[Matt Radtke]

The pictures do show that the blade is not only the wrong size, it is much newer than the plane. I was thinking the front knob was wrong, but some of the late type 11s did have a tall knob. The chipped and broken tote looks a little light for rosewood.

Other than that, if it is in good shape, get a new blade and chip breaker and go to town with it.


I've been looking for an excuse to buy a Hock blade. Now I've got my excuse. As far as the tote, it does indeed appear to be rosewood.

[Jim Koepke]

As far as the tote, it does indeed appear to be rosewood.

I am terrible when it comes to identifying wood unless it is oak or some kind of pine.

Looks like it will be a good plane once it is up and running.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

This is just to link to information about Stanley shoulder planes.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=119301

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Often fences have a user added slot for the blade. This was probably done by someone who did not really have an idea about using the plane. There are two holes in the fence assembly that allow the fence to ride lower than the blade when the plane is being used for rabbeting or similar work.

What is the saying about things on the internet stay around forever to embarrass us?

My new understanding of why some users cut slots in their fences makes me want to apologize to the users of times past. They surely had a better idea of how to use this plane than me.

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

"Old" is indeed relative. I go to a lot of antique stores with my wife. She always points out "old furniture", which is inevitable from the 1940s. Not old by a long shot, at least to me.

[Meryl Logue]

My gosh. Jim sent me here from my post crying about my first and bad online purchase.

This thread is gold, and I now enter this field better informed. I also see a ton of other good threads in here.

Jim, thank you a million.

[Jim Koepke]

You are welcome, glad to of help.

jtk