Metric Moron???

[Ed Breen]

:confused::confused:Our old grandfather clock was destroyed during an incident with my son Jamie who being developmentally disabled pushed the clock over and smashed it up rather completely.
I've been looking for a new case to house the works, and ran across an outfit in Great Britain. I downloaded the ebooks and they sent me the the working drawings and several profiles.
Wow, they are all metric. I hope base ten will be easier. Imagine, after 80 years I'm working in a new world!!!
Wish me luck, and pics will follow when I get it done.
Ed:confused:

[Joe Scharle]

Personally, I love metric! When I design my own plans....they're metric. I'm only 68, but you'll get it in no time!

[Myk Rian]

Maybe this attachment will help.
www.Klockit.com has some nice cases and such.

[Lee Schierer]

An easy answer is to go buy a metric tape and use that for the project. It will eliminate the translation problems.

[Rod Sheridan]

An easy answer is to go buy a metric tape and use that for the project. It will eliminate the translation problems.

That's the best answer, forget about Henry the Second' left foot and go metric.

I did it years ago when I wanted to make some cabinets in the 32mm system. There isn't any point trying to convert, just use a metric ruler and tape measure.

It's very easy.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Tinley]

Agree with others- get a metric tape.
If you are hesitant, then get a Stanley 8m/26' tape, it has inches on the top, and metric on the bottom. Also, Lee Valley makes some nice metric tapes, and very affordable.
I am in the process of converting, and I am doing 75% metric and 25% inches, I did download a conversion chart, then printed 3 copies and have them posted around the shop, they are handy.

Good luck, and post some pics of your progress.

Dave

[Dan Ewalt]

Don't know how many measurements there are in the plans but...

You can also use google to "translate" for you.

For example if you typed: 1 1/4 inches in mm in a google search it would tell you (1 1/4 inches) = 31.75 millimeters

or the inverse

typing: 40mm in inches will give you 40 millimeters = 1.57480315 inches.

It works for just about any measurements.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Starting with the purchase of a European tool with a bunch of metric scales, I begrudginly allowed metric into the shop. Has taken a whole 9 months for me to wonder why anyone still uses imperial.

The rules are a great suggestion. I found a bunch of good ones, Starrett mainly, on ebay for cheap.

[Mike Henderson]

Metric is soooo easy compared to English inches and feet. Just get a metric rule and don't look back. Do not try to convert your measurements - you'll make mistakes. Even if you use a converter, you take the risk of entering the original number wrong.

Mike

[Ed Breen]

HoHo, At least two of my tapes have metric on one edge and linear on the other. It will just require a mind change and I think I still have a mind to change. OR IS IT HABIT???
Ed:):)

[Larry Browning]

I think the hardest part of converting to metric for me would be in mental estimation. For instance, I can look at a board and think "that is about 3" wide, so it will be fine to rip down to 2 1/2 for that face frame I am making."
When the plan calls for something 6cm wide, I am not sure I can visualize in my mind what that looks like when trying to find a board that will work. I think I would be forever converting a measurement to imperial just so I could get a mental picture of what it looks like.

[Mike Gager]

i dont believe ill ever convert to metric.

how do you guys measure something thats less then 1mm? or how do you divide something evenly? such as 33mm divided by 5 do you round up? down? just kind of eyeball it on the tape measure? it doesnt seem very accurate to me

at least with imperial you can break it down nearly as far as you want to go with it. i mean at some point the line will be so small you cant see it but with metric theres no going below 1mm without getting into decimal places

[Mike Henderson]

Well, a mm is pretty small to begin with. When I have to divide an odd number by two, I look at what I'm doing and decide if I need the accuracy. So maybe I'll round up because I can then trim to fit. If it needs to be exact, I can eyeball a half mm.

Compare the division of, say 75 mm by two with dividing 3 3/8 by two. In my head I can say that half of 75 is 37 or 38, depending on which way I want to round, or I can say it's 37.5mm.

But for the 3 3/8, I say half of 3 is 1 1/2, plus 3/16 because 3/16 is half of 3/8. Let's see, a half is 8/16, and I add 3/16 to that, giving me 11/16 so my measurement is 1 11/16.

I don't know about you, but the first division is a lot easier for me.

Mike

[Augusto Orosco]

I think the hardest part of converting to metric for me would be in mental estimation. For instance, I can look at a board and think "that is about 3" wide, so it will be fine to rip down to 2 1/2 for that face frame I am making."
When the plan calls for something 6cm wide, I am not sure I can visualize in my mind what that looks like when trying to find a board that will work. I think I would be forever converting a measurement to imperial just so I could get a mental picture of what it looks like.

I was surprised how ones mental pictures can change if forced to. I grew up using metric and then move to the US. After a few months, I had little trouble visualizing dimensions in imperial... the downside, though, is that after more than 10 years here, now I have trouble visualizing dimensions in metric :eek:. But I am sure that it would come back to me pretty quickly if I apply myself to it.

I have to agree with the others, though: Metric is so much easier to deal with!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Metrics are inherently dangerous.
Don't use metrics

The plain fact is that more industrial accidents occur when metrics are used than English.
Be safe use English.

[george wilson]

There was some kind of foul up at NASA some time back,when someone used metric (or vice versa) measurements on an inch plan,or something to that effect. Anyone remember? Think it was about a space probe.

[Wilbur Pan]

how do you guys measure something thats less then 1mm? or how do you divide something evenly? such as 33mm divided by 5 do you round up? down? just kind of eyeball it on the tape measure? it doesnt seem very accurate to me

How do you divide 1-1/2" into 5? By the same logic, you have to figure out how to measure 3/10" with a ruler that's marked in 1/8" or 1/16" increments the vast majority of the time. This is just as inaccurate, and maybe even more so.

One advantage of using metric is that you can think in terms of 6mm chunks, which is really close to 1/4". So instead of 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", or 1", think of 6, 12, 18, and 24mm. This makes dividing by three much easier in metric than in the English system.

Me, I wind up using story sticks and cutting pieces to fit anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point. But for the times that I have had to measure, metric has been easier to deal with than English.

[Wilbur Pan]

There was some kind of foul up at NASA some time back,when someone used metric (or vice versa) measurements on an inch plan,or something to that effect. Anyone remember? Think it was about a space probe.

That was the Mars orbiter (http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/), in 1999.

[Ed Breen]

I thank you all for your words of wisdom. You'd think that after all the math I went through in 20 years of the education process I would have been exposed somewhere along the way. But I seem to have misplaced my old slate and chalk. My photography and the old 35mm/50mm stuff should have prepared me.
I feel quite up to conquering metric.
Ed

[Chris Barnett]

Lets use 5 3/8 so there is no duplication of numbers...so easy. The whole number 5 times the denominator (bottom) = 40, add the numerator 3 for a total of 43. Place this result over the original denominator 8, gives 27/8ths. Now doubling the denominator 8 gives 16, so 43/16 is half of 5 3/8. Now all you must remember is how many 16s are there in 43..which is 2 [16 x 2 =32], so 43-32 = 11. Therefore one half of 5 3/8 equals 2 11/16.
Proving this we use metrics....11/16 of 25.4 mm/inch = 17.4625, plus 2 times [25.4 = 50.8], is 17.4625 + 50.8 = 68.2625. Since 25.4 mm = 1 inch, 68.2625 = 2.68 inches, which we know is correct because 11/16 = .6875. The difference between 2.6875 and 2.68 = .0075 which is the thickness of the finish you apply :D.

Oh, the above post, they missed Mars!

[Chuck Wintle]

I agree with the others when it comes using the metric system...don't try to go convert between the two...it causes a lot of confusion. I found the problem with metric, at least for me initially, was its simplicity. I was so used to working with the standard system and its difficulties that the ease of conversion initially caused some problems.

[Jim Watts]

Metrics are inherently dangerous.
Don't use metrics

The plain fact is that more industrial accidents occur when metrics are used than English.
Be safe use English.

I challenge you to provide a credible example or citation that doesn't involve conversion errors...

[Glen Gunderson]

I challenge you to provide a credible example or citation that doesn't involve conversion errors...

He trots that out every time a metric thread comes up, I guess it's a bit of a running joke in his own mind. What he says is true, since the vast number of workers around the world operate under the metric system it's only logical that there would be more accidents under it.


See here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1045818&mode=linear&highlight=metric#post1045818


and here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=943103&mode=linear&highlight=metric#post943103


and here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=654071&highlight=metric#post654071


and here:


http://sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=609682&postcount=27

[Mike Wellner]

I like this
http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm

[Jim Watts]

He trots that out every time a metric thread comes up, I guess it's a bit of a running joke in his own mind. What he says is true, since the vast number of workers around the world operate under the metric system it's only logical that there would be more accidents under it.


See here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1045818&mode=linear&highlight=metric#post1045818


and here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=943103&mode=linear&highlight=metric#post943103


and here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=654071&highlight=metric#post654071


and here:


http://sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=609682&postcount=27

I've been had - he got me to go off half cocked. He's logically correct...

[Karl Brogger]

I've mulled over the SI vs Imperial for some time. I've come to the conclusion it does not matter. Its just a benchmark that we've all agreed on and its all the same and doesn't matter what its based on whether its the length of King Henry IIV's foot, or the speed of light through a vaccum.

I don't think I'd do well remembering that studs are 40.67cm on center either. The only advantage I really see is that cabinet makers rarely use feet and inches. Its almost solely inches, but architects almost always use feet. I have a tough time converting 12' 7-3/8" into 151-3/8" with out thinking about it. I think alot of carpenters do not like the idea because of decimals as well, but if you spend enough time punching numbers into a CAD program or a TigerStop that goes away pretty quickly too.

[Mike Gager]

How do you divide 1-1/2" into 5? By the same logic, you have to figure out how to measure 3/10" with a ruler that's marked in 1/8" or 1/16" increments the vast majority of the time. This is just as inaccurate, and maybe even more so.

One advantage of using metric is that you can think in terms of 6mm chunks, which is really close to 1/4". So instead of 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", or 1", think of 6, 12, 18, and 24mm. This makes dividing by three much easier in metric than in the English system.

Me, I wind up using story sticks and cutting pieces to fit anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point. But for the times that I have had to measure, metric has been easier to deal with than English.

19/64 would be the closest to your 1 1/2" divided by 5 example. you could easily measure that on a ruler with 64th marks

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Lets use 5 3/8 so there is no duplication of numbers...so easy. The whole number 5 times the denominator (bottom) = 40, add the numerator 3 for a total of 43. Place this result over the original denominator 8, gives 27/8ths. Now doubling the denominator 8 gives 16, so 43/16 is half of 5 3/8. Now all you must remember is how many 16s are there in 43..which is 2 [16 x 2 =32], so 43-32 = 11. Therefore one half of 5 3/8 equals 2 11/16.
Proving this we use metrics....11/16 of 25.4 mm/inch = 17.4625, plus 2 times [25.4 = 50.8], is 17.4625 + 50.8 = 68.2625. Since 25.4 mm = 1 inch, 68.2625 = 2.68 inches, which we know is correct because 11/16 = .6875. The difference between 2.6875 and 2.68 = .0075 which is the thickness of the finish you apply :D.

Oh, the above post, they missed Mars!

Chris, you lost me, but illustrated the reason that I like the metric system, no stinking fractions! I think that some of our minds think in decimals, and some fractionally. Mines definatly decimal.

[Gene Howe]

Metrics are inherently dangerous.
Don't use metrics

The plain fact is that more industrial accidents occur when metrics are used than English.
Be safe use English.

OK, Cliff. But, why?

[Gene Howe]

Well, I have a problem with metrics. Not the system, but it's uneven applications.
Sheet goods are an example. I want to make some egg crate dividers for drawers. I buy 1/4 ply. It's not. My dado set will not produce a 7/32 dado!
There are quite a few other (used to be simple) little projects that I do that will now be more difficult. Yeah, I know, hardwood faced MDF is (usually) 1/4. But I don't like the stuff. And, BB is about 200 miles away.

I ordered a little gadget from Bridge city called the KM-1 Kerf Maker. Cost me over 70.00 with shipping. Now, I'll be able to use a combo or rip blade to make two cuts per groove to end up with a snug fit. It really ticks me off! $70.00 and twice the cut time?!?!

Either make some mm sized blades or give me more options in sheet goods!
Rant over.
Gene

[Colin Giersberg]

[QUOTE=Mike Henderson;

Compare the division of, say 75 mm by two with dividing 3 3/8 by two. In my head I can say that half of 75 is 37 or 38, depending on which way I want to round, or I can say it's 37.5mm.

But for the 3 3/8, I say half of 3 is 1 1/2, plus 3/16 because 3/16 is half of 3/8. Let's see, a half is 8/16, and I add 3/16 to that, giving me 11/16 so my measurement is 1 11/16.

I don't know about you, but the first division is a lot easier for me.

Mike[/QUOTE]


Not trying to change your opinion of the metric system, but in the example you use of 3 3/8, an easy way to divide it in half, and this will work for all ODD fractions, is to take the largest number that will go into 3 two times (forget the fractional part of this answer). That is 1. Next, add the top and bottom numbers of the fraction together. 3/8 = 11 when added. Now double the bottom part which gives you 16.
Combine all of your answers in sequence and you get 1 11/16


Other examples:
1 7/8 = 15/16
17 3/4 = 8 7/8
21 17/32 = 10 49/64

While the concept takes a little bit of thinking, once you get familiar with it, it becomes quite easy, especially when the fractional part isn't like the third example I used. Bear in mind, this method only works for ODD fractions. Let's face it, dividing fractions is a royal pain, but maybe the above method will simplify that process, especially when a calculator with that ability is not around.

Otherwise, the metric system is definitely easier to work with once you understand the terminology, and the relationship of one unit to another.

Regards, Colin

[Wilbur Pan]

19/64 would be the closest to your 1 1/2" divided by 5 example. you could easily measure that on a ruler with 64th marks

First, you have to figure out somehow that 19/64" is close to 3/10". If you are doing this by converting fractions to decimals, you might as well be using metric anyway.

Second, if you are measuring to 1/64" accuracy, that's just under an accuracy of 0.4 mm. You can easily achieve an accuracy of 0.5 mm with a ruler marked in mm, and they do make rulers marked to 0.5 mm as well. The difference between 0.4 mm accuracy and 0.5 mm accuracy is 4/1000", at which point I'm using a hand plane or chisel and working by fit anyway.

[Peter Quinn]

Funny thing happened at work today. I got to use the metric system! I get a set of plans for a simple counter top given to me. The boss and foreman are talking a bit about the job when I go in to get my paperwork, I ask if I should come back, they say no, they are just working out the numbers real quick. By this I thought they meant they were finishing the design. Actually the plans came from a British client COMPLETELY METRIC, and they were translating into SAE for me. How thoughtful, they even rounded up to the nearest 1/16"!

Stupid thing is I have metric rulers and tapes in my tool box, I am more than capable of measuring in metric, or at least no less capable than I am of using any other system. I have decided to make it using the metric measurements, just to get in the habit. I find the ruler such an arbitrary tool it makes little difference on a simple assembly what system is used.

Might be a moot point as the recycled oak barn timbers for the job came in wet as a dog in a pond and I hit nails on the first pass through the TS. Job is on hold awaiting drier lumber. Seems old iron nails are no match for carbide though.