Can't get a single tapcon screw to work w/out breaking!

[Michael Donahue]

Hey folks. I've build some railings and now I'm trying to mount them to concrete steps. I'm using the titan post anchors and they call for 1/4"x 2 1/4" fasteners. I bought tapcon concrete screws that size and the right sized bit (3/16") that they called for. I've already broken the first 3 screws I tried to set and I don't know what to do! I know that too much torque can snap them, so I turned down the torque on my drill and then they wouldn't budge. When I turned the torque up enough that the screws would actually turn, I wound up breaking the screws!

Can you give me an idea what I may be doing wrong? Are there better fasteners that I could use? Thanks for the help.

[Prashun Patel]

After drilling the pilot hole, are you blowing out the hole so there's no dust in it? Also, are you drilling a good 1/2" - 3/4" deeper than you need to?

If no, then try those things. Concrete dust does not compress as wood fibers do, so if there's mess in the hole, it ain't going nowhere. Yr screw's gonna sit there until you torque it enough to break the head.

Personally I prefer the lead anchors for a permanent installation; they have some 'give' around the screw and in the concrete, so they make for a tighter connection that won't become brittle over time. I'm no pro; just my anecdotal experience.

[Thomas Knapp]

I have installed quite a few tapcons.
#1 make sure that your pilot hole is deeper that the tapcon.
#2 run the bit up and down in the hole a few times to clean it out.
# 3 double check the size of your bit and make sure the edges have not broken off and made the diameter smaller.

Most of the times tapcons have broken, when I used them, the hole was too shallow or debris in the hole packed in the bottom. Either situation makes the tip bottom out before the head is seated. Old .chipped, or too small of drill bit comes in second. Another problem is cheap off brand fasteners that are just crap.

[Thomas Knapp]

I guess you type faster than I do. Your answer wasn't there when I started typing mine. There are a lot of fasteners that are stronger than tapcons. Tapcons are popular because they are usually quick to install and are fairly strong. Hilti expansion anchors are a little more money and take a little longer to install, but are quite a bit stronger.

After drilling the pilot hole, are you blowing out the hole so there's no dust in it? Also, are you drilling a good 1/2" - 3/4" deeper than you need to?

If no, then try those things. Concrete dust does not compress as wood fibers do, so if there's mess in the hole, it ain't going nowhere. Yr screw's gonna sit there until you torque it enough to break the head.

Personally I prefer the lead anchors for a permanent installation; they have some 'give' around the screw and in the concrete, so they make for a tighter connection that won't become brittle over time. I'm no pro; just my anecdotal experience.

[Don Abele]

Michael, I drove hundreds of TapCons when I refinished my basement and the advice you got above is spot on.

The hole must be drilled 1/2" deeper than the actual screw. The drill bits that come in the box are extra long for that purpose.

The holes must also be the right diameter. So if you didn't get a box with the bit, be sure and buy the correct bit. Also, the bit does wear out. In a typical box I would go through about half the box then replace the bit. The cost of the bits were much cheaper than the frustration of snapping off the heads.

Lastly, the hole must be clear of debris. Just running the bit in and out doesn't clear it enough and the 1/2" clearance hole may be filled. I used my little pancake compressor and gave each hole a shot of air before driving the screw.

Yes, even with all that taken into account, I still snapped a few or had them not want to drive in all the way. But my percentages dropped significantly when I followed the above advice.

Be well,

Doc

[Michael Donahue]

Thanks for all of the replies folks. I used the right size bit and drilled the hole deeper than the screws. I think my holes ended up being an 1"+ deeper than my screws so I figured that extra dust would collect down there and not interfere with the screws. I'll double check the depth and maybe try my shop vac to clean out the holes.

[CPeter James]

I have had good luck using an impact driver on the Tapcon screws. It seems to work better that the drill/driver. Also, don't try to over tighten them. That is guaranteed to snap them off.

CPeter

[Brent Smith]

Along with the above advise I would add that sometimes running a tapcon in and out of a hole that's bogging down helps. I've also used a bar of soap on some that were troublesome.

[Joe Scharle]

I have had good luck using an impact driver on the Tapcon screws. It seems to work better that the drill/driver. Also, don't try to over tighten them. That is guaranteed to snap them off.

CPeter

I drove 40 on Sat with my impact driver. It did seem to work better than a drill. I'd always followed the directions, but I had the impact driver in-hand and the drill was in the shop. I've got 200+ more to do after the plumbers get through and I'll certainly try it again.

[Don Abele]

I didn't initially mention it but I used a Dewalt 18v impact driver and it was night and day different from the Dewalt 18v drill. Impact driver required next to no downward force and spun them right in. With the drill, I had to push pretty had and it took more effort. I think I ran through a box with the drill on a single charge. The impact drove two or three boxes on a single charge.

BTW, I'd recommend getting impact-grade bits - the standard ones snap off pretty easily (DAMHIKT).

Be well,

Doc

[Michael Donahue]

I had trouble breaking the screws with just my drill. I don't see how the extra torque of the impact would help :confused: Wouldn't they snap more readily?

[Chad Helme]

The last time I had a major snapping fit with tapcons, I had taken the bit from a box of tapcons, and began using it with some tapcons that I "thought" came from that same box. But they did not come from that box, and that drill bit was the wrong size. During that process, before I discovered my error, and in a frantic effort to produce different results, I switched from the drill to the impact, which snapped em off just as easily.

Its tough when you're in a finish situation, when there are 4 holes, only 4, and they have to all work and look good. We recenlty installed some vinyl basement windows for a customer at work. We had to drill through the vinyl window jam and into the foundation. No way to hide the screws, and no other way to secure the window. Ughhhhh.

Best thing to do, is to buy extra screws. Send one in until it snuggs, then back it out and plow the hole a bit more with the drill bit. Repeat with a NEW SCREW again and again until one finally goes in all the way. And it is very important to not over tighten. With a drill, its tight when the handle just starts to twist in your hands, and with an impact, its when the two things you are bolting together just clamp flush to eachother. Stop immediately!

If its super important that things go well, start with the smallest size tapcon you can possibly use. Then, if you snap one off, you can drill it out and go for the next size up.

Good luck.

[harry strasil]

Food for Thought, if they break, snap, pop that easy what's gonna happen when someone leans against the railing or happens to fall against it.

[george wilson]

I rub candles on screws,drill holes that are larger than the minor diameter of the screws,and deep enough to clear their length. Beeswax candles stick best.

[Chad Helme]

that works with wood, does it also work with tapcons into concrete?

[Don Abele]

If you drill the hole bigger than the recommended size, TapCons will NOT hold. DAMHIKT

As for the impact driver snapping them easier...yes, it does produce A LOT more torque, but seems (IMO) to exert less force on the screw and it goes in smoothly. I snapped more heads with my drill than I did with the impact. Doesn't make sense, but that's how it worked for me. I wonder if the impacting (hammer action) has anything to do with it.

Be well,

Doc

[Don Abele]

...Send one in until it snuggs, then back it out and plow the hole a bit more with the drill bit. Repeat with a NEW SCREW again and again until one finally goes in all the way...

Chad, that's a good point - you CAN NOT reuse a TapCon. Driving them once ruins the threads.

Now, as for repeating the process - be careful because you can wind up with a hole too large for the TapCon to hold securely. BTDT

Be well,

Doc

[Tom Esh]

...I snapped more heads with my drill than I did with the impact. Doesn't make sense, but that's how it worked for me. I wonder if the impacting (hammer action) has anything to do with it...
Doc

Perhaps kinetic vs static friction, but the thrust component of the impact blow can also damage / enlarge the bore in materials like cinder block. The best thing I've found for driving the larger sizes is a good old fashioned speed handle:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944271000P?vName=Tools&cName=Mechanics+Tools&sName=Socket+Accessories
...lot's of torque and control.

[Brad Sperr]

I also think you may want to consider using something beefier than tapcons for hand railings. Wedge anchors or sleeve anchors are just as easy to install and are considerably stronger.

[Joel Gelman]

Old thread. I am installing DriCore over a concrete floor. I went to drill some holes. It is not something I would want to drill with anchors as I drill with the DriCore in place and want to to through it.

I first drilled a countersink in the OSB of the dricore subfloor when it is where I want it, then the hole with a new bit, then the TapCon. Broke. I tried it again with yet another bit. Broke!

The TapCon was 1/4 x 2 1/4 with star recess. I used a new 3/16 x 3 1/4 carbide tipped. bit from TapCon that is for use with 1/4 diameter anchors. I drilled 1/2 inch deeper. I cleaned out the hole. I used a Bosch impact drill.

I noticed with drilling the hole with the 3/16 bit, it was not easy even with a very heavy duty impala corded drill. I have a feeling that my concrete floor is too strong for the Tapcons as I think I am doing everything properly.

Any thoughts?

[Edward Weber]

I had trouble breaking the screws with just my drill. I don't see how the extra torque of the impact would help :confused: Wouldn't they snap more readily?

A drill driver is constant torque, with no release of pressure you can easily twist and snap a screw.
An impact driver hammers and releases, hammers and releases. "inching" the bit screw in a little at a time. More like tapping threads than driving a self-tapping screw.

[Jim Dwight]

Tapcons are way to much work and expense to put down subfloor. You need a percussive nailer. The ones you hit with a hammer are cheap and avoid the possible licensing issue of the ones with a trigger. With the right blanks you just hit the driver with a hammer and the nail goes through the subfloor and is buried into the concrete. Different power levels are different color in the driving cartridges.

If you are dead set on tapcons, I would drill deeper and spend more time getting debris out. Maybe even wiggle the drill bit a little to enlarge the hole slightly.

[Paul F Franklin]

Old concrete can be really tough. I keep a 7/32 carbide tipped drill bit just for tapcons in old concrete. Especially for something like dricore, the slight reduction in holding power isn't an issue.

[Bill Dufour]

Why not epoxy anchors? Old school is cast in place lead or sulphur.
Bill D

[Maurice Mcmurry]

An old thread, My dislike of tapcons is much older. I never use them. I want concrete fasteners to be hot dipped galvanized or stainless steel, to be reversible, to stay reversible and to work every time. I use plastic anchors and stainless screws for light weight applications, hot dipped wedge anchors, lead - zinc alloy shields with hot galvanized or stainless lag screws.

[Edward Weber]

An old thread, My dislike of tapcons is much older. I never use them. I want concrete fasteners to be hot dipped galvanized or stainless steel, to be reversible, to stay reversible and to work every time. I use plastic anchors and stainless screws for light weight applications, hot dipped wedge anchors, lead - zinc alloy shields with hot galvanized or stainless lag screws.



Ditto
I know it depends on the application, but being removable is a big plus in my book

[andrew whicker]

I got tired of hauling my air compressor to job sites for blowing out holes. I buy the compressed air cans now.

I also use my drill more and more to put them in (as opposed to my impact driver).

[andrew whicker]

I have a feeling it's the old concrete factor. I agree about trying a concrete nail gun (with gun powder). They make different loads. They are cheap enough that you can start w/ the middle load and see if you need more or less power, etc.

[Jack Frederick]

I guess I’m not smart enough to use Tapcons. I am diligent in process, but always expect them to break and they do not disappoint in that regard. I prefer the lead anchor driven type anchors. However, even those can drive you crazy as you can get a spinner when tightening the nut onto the anchor. I just welded up a frame for a failed gate post at my daughters place and sure enough after driving the lead anchor it spun. Prior to installation I cut a slot into the head of the thread so I can hold the anchor in place while tightening the screw. It works well and the anchor will take up. Given the problem of “a not right” concrete anchor it is worth the effort to cut the slot.

[Joel Gelman]

Well... I got it to work. I purchased an SDS bit in 3/16 and I found a non SDS in 7/32. The 7/32 did not work as no thread. The hole was too big. With the SDS 3/16 going in and out a bit more than 1/2 over with vacuum being used as I was going in and out, I got it to work with 1 exception. I also used wax but not sure that helped or not.

Thanks for the input.

[John K Jordan]

I have a feeling it's the old concrete factor. I agree about trying a concrete nail gun (with gun powder). They make different loads. They are cheap enough that you can start w/ the middle load and see if you need more or less power, etc.

I anchored the bottom plates in my shop with a nail gun (a model smacked with a hammer to fire) with cartridge gunpowder loads. Worked well. I put a little construction adhesive down first just for fun.

When installing tapcons I drill first then drive the screws by hand so I can feel the force. Never broke one.

[Joel Gelman]

I was able to buy an SDS 3/16 (Also got a 7/32 and hole too big) and drilled in and out more than 1/2 over while using the vacuum repeatedly as the bit was going in and out. Also used wax. It worked with 1 exception.

As for alternatives to Tapcon for the future, and suggestions for flat head? I want the head to be flush with the surface in certain applications. For other anchors with a nut-bolt type application, yes, I use other options.

[Bill Dufour]

The Hilti anchor epxoy capsules allow no waste, no special tool, single bolt use.
Bill D

[Joel Gelman]

I thought I replied previously but not seeing the post. I purchased a different 3/16 bit in SDS and drilled a bit deeper than 1/2 beyond the screw depth and went in and out and in and out etc with the vacuum up against the hole to catch dust as the bit came out each time etc. With that, I got it with 1 exception. I did buy a 7/32 but too big and the head would spin.

For my application I wanted a flat head. If anyone knows of a better product where it is flat head to be flush or just under the surface I would be interested.

thanks for the suggestions.

[Warren Lake]

I drill deeper, I put the drill to bottom a few times and pull out bringing dust out each time. I dont wiggle.

I put the screw in some amount then back out, then go in further, then back it out then go all the way. Sometimes I use wax. The back in and out is how i use a tap depending on what it is, in and back out and that case sometimes clean it with a brush. I stopped breaking Tapcons once I was doing that. I have all kinds of inserts and use them when it makes sense. All my tooling cabinets are on french cleats with Tapcons holding them to block wall.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’d rather epoxy in fasteners than use tapcons but I do as Warren does when I use them.

[Kris Cook]

I hate tapcons. Whoever invented them should be kicked in the nether regions. Glad you got it figured out.

[Warren Lake]

I got them to work and so did Brian. They hold tons of my stuff on walls and have never failed.

I do agree they are brittle but doing what i do has made them workable.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

They are popular around new construction. They definitely have their place. They do not meet building code for attaching the bottom plate of a structural wall.

[Bradley Gray]

I have seen ads for a new class of 400 psi air tools - supposed to shoot through steel and into concrete.

Anyone used one?

[Warren Lake]

Is it possible they were made diff in the past like so much stuff. I have some old ones that are light blue, most to all ive bought since way past are dark blue. They are brittle and snap compared to past light blue.

I remember pulling a 2/4 off concrete with some old light blue ones and they were stubborn. I ended up with them being bent which now doesnt make sense compared to how brittle the dark blue ones are? Is it possible they shuffled up materials on us? Maybe now they are made from recycled Ladas. I have boxes of old screws and if I pick them up compared to new world stuff there is a weight difference.