Is Outsourcing Doors and Drawers a Good Value?

[Jeff Wright]

I am about to begin building our new kitchen. Have you any experience in outsourcing your doors and/or drawers versus building them yourself? I have seen the outsourced products at the IWF Atlanta Woodworking show and am confident the quality is there. But I suspect if a cost comparison were made even NOT including the cost of my own labor, the outsourced route would be cheaper and certainly faster.

Any comments?

[Frank Drew]

I have to think that outsourced would be cheaper no matter how you figured it; that's their whole reason for being.

As good as or even better than homemade? Well, that depends on the maker. And there's a certain generic look to production items that some clients will recognize and reject, or at least be vaguely dissatisfied with.

[Nate Carey]

Jeff, if you can find an outfit in Florida comparable to my source http://www.ncdoor.com you'll save money and get a quality product...

...I recommend out-sourcing...

[Jeff Wright]

Jeff, if you can find an outfit in Florida comparable to my source http://www.ncdoor.com you'll save money and get a quality product...

...I recommend out-sourcing...

Thanks Nate. Your source looks like they make quality products. I do have a local (large regional) hardwood dealer here in town who makes doors/drawers. Not yet sure of their quality. Your source is a family owned outfit and that MAY help insure good quality.

[Jamie Buxton]

Here's a thread about my comparison of buying versus building drawers.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83794&highlight=drawers

[Quinn McCarthy]

You also have to find somebody that can give you a product that is of the same quality that it would be if you did it yourself. A friend went through 3 door makers before he found one that was making quality doors. He sent back over half of the doors from the first company. Some doors were sent back multiple times. Mostly sanding issues but some where the wrong size. I am not saying every company is like that but it may take some checking around on your part.

Quinn

[Todd Burch]

You also have to find somebody that can give you a product that is of the same quality that it would be if you did it yourself.
<snip>
Quinn

That can go both ways! The "same quality" scale could go up or down. Perhaps sometimes you might want "better" than you can make!

Todd

[Jay Brewer]

I dont know what equipment you have, but no router, shaper or drum sander can touch what a quality door company can produce. The only reason I make my own doors is because I cant get enough work to stay busy if I only built the boxes. I can barely buy the wood to build the doors for what I can buy a door ready to finish let along all the time and machinery I have invested in it.

If you enjoy building doors, that thats fine,I completely understand that, but no way are you going to produce a door better or faster that a GOOD door company. As in any industry, there are plenty of bad ones out there.

[Jeff Wright]

Here's a thread about my comparison of buying versus building drawers.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83794&highlight=drawers

Thanks Jamie . . .excellent link. In fact, I noticed a post of my own on that post over a year ago! I guess I have been putting this kitchen renovation for quite a while!!

[Karl Brogger]

When I first started on my own in 04' I didn't have any equipment to make doors. I was selling melamine interior cabinets, and using baltic birch with a melamine bottom for my drawers. Now I wouldn't think of selling melamine anything, and offer nothing but dovetail drawers. I am considering using Meta-Box drawers as a budget orientated option just because it is a decent product, and there is a ton of profitability in.

I outsourced all of my door work to other shops just because I didn't have the capital to do it myself. My theory is that vertical integration is the way to go. If I could start a company to harvest trees and mill/dry the lumber I would do it. Remember, somebody is making money at it, and it might as well be you. Plus controlling supply of some things is handy. Especially when you give the wrong door size and need a replacement ASAP.

When I started doing dovetail drawers I started running around to different cabinet shops trying to sell drawers. I now have four different shops that I sell drawers to on a regular basis. I don't make a ton of money sell just the box's to other shops, but what happens is I take some of the business away from them. I may only make a few dollars of pure profit per drawer box, but thats profit that they do not make at all for building the drawer. Because of that little bit of extra drawer money I take in, I'm now looking at spending about $15k on a cnc dovetailer so I can do it more effeciently and make more money at it both for my own shops needs and others. I may even lower prices just to sweat out the other guys.

[Peter Quinn]

The shop I work in buys all the drawer boxes but makes its own doors. We use blum undermounts for the boxes, and they come drilled and ready to go, prefinished, very good quality product we could not make cheaper. If you consider getting doors and drawers, consider getting prefinished as that can be a major bottleneck in a small shop or home shop. Some manufacturers will sell you the finishing schedule used in a quantity suitable for finishing the face frames to match. Some places will sell you the face frames too, prefinished if you wish. Check Conastoga for that. And to take it a step further, a place like Halls Edge (for example) can CNC all your carcass parts, ship them to you on a pallet ready for you to assembly, you design the kitchen in Ecabinetsystems, upload it to them, they cut and ship your plywood. Do you enjoy cutting plywood? I'd rather make the doors than cut the sheet goods personally.

As to the suggestion that a factory door shop can make BETTER doors than ANY guy with a shaper or router, I say please step out into fresh air, you are in a low oxygen environment presently. I have not seen factory made doors that I felt were better than the ones I make myself. Some were every bit as good, all were cheaper, but none better. And if you want to get into some special wood with figure or book match, making them your self might be your best option.

[Jay Brewer]

As to the suggestion that a factory door shop can make BETTER doors than ANY guy with a shaper or router, I say please step out into fresh air, you are in a low oxygen environment presently. I have not seen factory made doors that I felt were better than the ones I make myself. Some were every bit as good, all were cheaper, but none better. And if you want to get into some special wood with figure or book match, making them your self might be your best option.



I shouldn't have said NO one can do it, more like the average hobbyist with a router or shaper will have a tough time building a door as nice as a quality door shop. I'm sure someone out there with only hand tools can build a great door.

I will put my doors up against a door shop also. If my doors didn't look good, they sure wouldn't go on my cabinets. But it has taken years of time and more money that I care to think about for me to be able to build a quality door fairly quickly.

Building a kitchen full of doors with a single router or shaper ( while it definitely can be done ) is not what I would consider a great experience.

[Roger Benton]

Jeff,
I've had good results with walzcraft.com. Great quality products.

[Jeff Duncan]

There's nothing wrong with outsourcing to save money, I don't go that route but it's b/c I stress the quality aspect over the price. I have yet to see a production drawer that competes with mine, but I can't touch their prices. The doors are very nice and well made. But my doors are thicker, the wood matches (on stain grade) and I can re-make a door if there's an issue without having to wait for it. Of course i have the equipment to make it practical so.....
The question is if this is for your own kitchen why would you outsource? Or maybe another way to look at it is why not outsource the whole kitchen? I mean putting boxes together doesn't really take a whole lot of skill, nor does it show off any skills. When people walk into a kitchen what do they see.....doors. So if your going to outsource those I guess I don't see the point in building the boxes yourself when you can outsource those and save money too. Which of course at that point it would probably not be a big difference to just buy a semi-custom kitchen from a retailer:eek:
Just my thoughts,
JeffD

[Chip Lindley]

Hi Jeff! As my .02, I must ask how you feel about your own proficiency at door-making? That is the real *bottom line!* Do you have the right tools? Any previous experience here? Or, is this a brand new odyessy you are embarking on? Different folks have different expectations as to quality--what they will accept and what irks them! My idea of *quality* may differ severely from your own. My *quality* may pall severely in the eyes of another!

Personally, I have NO doubt I can make as good a machine-made door or drawer as anybody, anywhere. The big difference for years was in panel-sanding and finishing. Now, that I have a decent drum sander, only shortcoming is in finishing! I am not set up with an expensive climate-controlled spray booth to used catalyzed finishes like the *big boys*! IF I out-sourced anything it would be finishing! Not constructing!

IF this is to be your own personal effort at your home's kitchen, it is something you will live with for many years. Not nearly the same as a product you provide to a customer and never see again. Quality of out-sourced doors may or may not be better than you can make yourself. You have no control over matching grain, or culling dark boards, or light sapwood, which may be included in the *cheaper, more efficient* out-sourced. Should there be an issue, and the provider is not in your neighborhood, returning and receiving new doors may negate the notion of *faster* OR *cheaper* considering shipping charges.

If you are as fastidious as many woodworkers in these forums, the product you receive may fall sort of your expectations. Or, it may be light-years ahead of anything you could make yourself. I have no doubt there are as many different levels of quality among providers, as there are acceptance levels of buyers.

IF I were building my very own brand new quality kitchen, (which Will be happening soon) I would take pride in the fact that I DID IT ALL MYSELF.


....I noticed a post of my own on that post over a year ago! I guess I have been putting this kitchen renovation for quite a while!!

Your schedule for completion is pretty lax. Within a year, you could have tried and failed and perfected your door/drawer-making lots by now!


....I suspect if a cost comparison were made even NOT including the cost of my own labor, the outsourced route would be cheaper and certainly faster.

I have tons of free time! I work pretty cheap for Myself! My customers even get an awsome bargain, because I have absolute minimum overhead! All my machinery and tools are paid for! I buy bargain rough lumber and mill it myself rather than expensive S2S!

Your situation may differ if you must go out and spend a few thousand $$ on the right tools to make doors. But, if you already have the tools, and IF you have the talent, build your own kitchen, top to bottom. It is up to you to decide if this is a quality issue, a money issue, or a time issue. Only you can determine which!

.02 usta buy you a penny post card and a piece of bubblegum. Now it just buys *advice*! GoodLuck!

[Jeff Wright]

Hi Jeff! As my .02, I must ask how you feel about your own proficiency at door-making? That is the real *bottom line!* Do you have the right tools? Any previous experience here? Or, is this a brand new odyessy you are embarking on?

This will be my third complete kitchen. There is little I lack in the shop re: tools. I don't have a problem with telling folks I did not build the doors or drawers, but only designed and planned it and built and installed the boxes, crown mdlgs, etc. This kitchen will be painted white so grain match and selection becomes less of an issue. One of my motivations is to move on to other furniture building projects.

Thanks to all who have posted suggestions.

The photo here is representative of some of my recent work. This cab features inset doors with butt hinges and about 1/16 inch reveals around doors and drawers. Top is 1.25 inch cherry.

[Dennis Thornton]

In an upcoming kitchen remodel I planned on making everything. Alas I tend to take a while with my projects (many concurrent projects). The wife put her foot down so I had to look at my options.

Cabinets from the borg with anywhere near an accepable quality level are pretty pricey. I did some internet searching and found some possible solutions.

For a test I added a 6' base cabinet in our garage.

Cases - I tried cabparts. Price was ok and shipping was collect estimated to be ~$100. Got them and there weren't any problems except one. Freight was ~$350!!! :eek:

I had the drawer boxes, drawer fronts, doors, and frames made by another provider. Freight was reasonable (included in the original price). Quality was top notch. Sizes were spot on, color consistency, finish, etc were excellent. Delivery took about (IIRC) 3 weeks. These were insets. Doors came predrilled for hinges and the drawer boxes came precut for the blum undermounts.

Final result - I hate to admit it, but the results were better than I can do. I don't have the facilities to apply the catalyzed lacquer finishes and there's no way I could affort even a fracton of the equipment to make all the profiles the door supplier has available. I won't be buying premade cases for the kitchen project. I can make those easy enough with a track saw. All the drawer boxes, fronts, frames, etc will be bought.

Shhhh. Don't tell everyone but the supplier I'm using is Elias Woodwork (eliaswoodwork.com). BTW - If you're ever looking to do curved cabinets (convex or concave) these guys do it (doors and faceframes).