Roubo from drawer scraps.... am I nuts?

[Zach Dillinger]

Fellow Creekers,

I've just purchased about 200 pieces of hard maple from a material salvage store. They are all exactly the same size: 16.5" long, 4" wide, 3/4" thick. I assume that these were drawer box material that just didn't get used. I paid a grand total of $50 (gloat?). The minute I purchase them I thought: new Roubo benchtop. What do you all think of glueing up all of those pieces into a top? I was thinking of glueing them into sections 15 boards (12") wide, while staggering them along the length to create a tongue / pocket to glue those individual pieces together so that I would form a solid board 12" wide and 8' long, then glueing two of those together to form the 24" width.

I realize that this will take a ridiculous amount of glue, but I figure I can buy a few gallons of Tite Bond with the money I saved on the wood. I figured that the purchase price (if I had bought it from Johnson's Lumber, my local supplier) would be about $500 for the same amount of hard maple in large board form. I realize that I will have to be meticulous in my glue ups to ensure a reasonably flat surface that will be easy to plane flat. Do you think that this is worth the effort? Anything I should take extra special care doing? I'm slightly worried about the strength at the interlocking joints, but I figure that the long grain glue surface between the two 12" wide pieces will help with that. Also, by flipping the boards so that they form a top 4" thick, I figure that I will have less seasonal movement than normal and that I will have quarter sawn hard maple as my top.

Bottom line: am I nuts to try this? Anybody else done it?

[george wilson]

Make sure by trial planing each piece on their edges,that all the pieces plane in the same direction before gluing up. recommend penciling an arrow on each piece to show how it should be oriented. Then,you can hand or power plane the top smoothly,without tear out.

I don't see why you couldn't make a bench. Hide glue doesn't creep under load,like when you are clamping planks between a bench dog and the tail vise.

[michael osadchuk]

Zach,

Using the small pieces should be fine...... if the pieces are of uniform dimension, especially the 3/4" dimension, you probably will be saving more time over working with rough sawn large member needing jointing/thickness planing. ..... key is not have the end to end joints of successive rows land at the same point; overlap end to end joints of one row to land at the halfway point of the pieces of the previous row.....plan ahead so that the two 12" sections also have the same overlaps of the end to end joints of the 16.5" lengths when it comes to mating together the two 12" wide sections...

George Wilson's mention of hide glue suggests to me an intriguing possibility that I would be interested in more knowledgeable/experienced users of hide glue commenting on; hide glue allows a no-clamp glue up, typically for out of the way locations where it is difficult to use clamps, using something called a "rub joint" (applying the hide glue to mating surfaces and rubbing the new piece back and forth several times against the preceeding piece/layer until the glue jells and the pieces remain stuck together without further pressure)..... because of the typical short time before applied hide glue jells and because hide glue shrinks as it dries, the glue continues to draw the wood joint together, I wonder if it would be possible to eliminate the use of clampa for gluing up each of the two 12" wide sections....

....inspired purchase of the multiple small pieces a quality hardwood

good luck

michael

[Jamie Buxton]

Just for the fun of it, you could also throw in other kinds of wood. Y'know, whatever you have around. So maybe you get a bench top punctuated with a few pieces of walnut or cherry or the like.

And now to get wilder.... Y'know those segmented bowls the turners make? They glue up blanks from various colors and species, and then turn the blanks. Your bench top could be something like that -- mostly maple, because you got it for a song, but the other woods could form some specific pattern.

[David Keller NC]

"Do you think that this is worth the effort?"

Personally, I think you're nuts.:rolleyes: (You did ask, after all). I just don't have the patience to do something like this, but I think the final outcome will be just as sturdy as a bench-top glued up from larger pieces of wood.

But unless you consider your time free, and there's not something else you'd rather do in the woodshop, I think this goes waaayyyy overboard on the labor side of the equation. Moreover, unless you plane/joint all of these boards, I suspect many of them will have enough twist/bow/cup that you may have difficulty getting all the joints cinched down tight.

My thought would be to make nice maple boxes out of that pile - and make a benchtop out of something else.:)

[Zach Dillinger]

Make sure by trial planing each piece on their edges,that all the pieces plane in the same direction before gluing up. recommend penciling an arrow on each piece to show how it should be oriented. Then,you can hand or power plane the top smoothly,without tear out.

I don't see why you couldn't make a bench. Hide glue doesn't creep under load,like when you are clamping planks between a bench dog and the tail vise.

George,

Thanks for the tip on the arrows. I will make sure to do that. I'd love to use hide glue for the glue up. Any idea how much it would take? How much should I order?

Zach

[Wilbur Pan]

If you have the time and the glue, go for it. I think that the main issue you'll have is ensuring that the ends of the boards butt up nicely with each other.

But to address this issue:


I realize that I will have to be meticulous in my glue ups to ensure a reasonably flat surface that will be easy to plane flat.

It's always better to be meticulous, but when I made my benchtop out of 4x4's, I wound up needing to take down about 1/8" to get one side flat. A cambered blade on a jack plane makes this easy to do, and I got the flattening part done over an 8' x 22" area in just about 30 minutes. So don't obsess too much over this part.

If anything, I'd obsess over your end-to-end joints. The flatness of the top can be easily fixed. The end-to-end joints will be harder to fix.

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach,

Using the small pieces should be fine...... if the pieces are of uniform dimension, especially the 3/4" dimension, you probably will be saving more time over working with rough sawn large member needing jointing/thickness planing. ..... key is not have the end to end joints of successive rows land at the same point; overlap end to end joints of one row to land at the halfway point of the pieces of the previous row.....plan ahead so that the two 12" sections also have the same overlaps of the end to end joints of the 16.5" lengths when it comes to mating together the two 12" wide sections...

George Wilson's mention of hide glue suggests to me an intriguing possibility that I would be interested in more knowledgeable/experienced users of hide glue commenting on; hide glue allows a no-clamp glue up, typically for out of the way locations where it is difficult to use clamps, using something called a "rub joint" (applying the hide glue to mating surfaces and rubbing the new piece back and forth several times against the preceeding piece/layer until the glue jells and the pieces remain stuck together without further pressure)..... because of the typical short time before applied hide glue jells and because hide glue shrinks as it dries, the glue continues to draw the wood joint together, I wonder if it would be possible to eliminate the use of clampa for gluing up each of the two 12" wide sections....

....inspired purchase of the multiple small pieces a quality hardwood

good luck

michael

Michael,

Good point about staggering the joints between the two 12" wide planks; I hadn't thought of that but I will make sure to do that. I'm using Tite Bond to glue the individual boards together, but hide glue seems like an intriguing option. I wish I had a reasonably priced local source.

Thanks!

Zach

[Zach Dillinger]

Just for the fun of it, you could also throw in other kinds of wood. Y'know, whatever you have around. So maybe you get a bench top punctuated with a few pieces of walnut or cherry or the like.

And now to get wilder.... Y'know those segmented bowls the turners make? They glue up blanks from various colors and species, and then turn the blanks. Your bench top could be something like that -- mostly maple, because you got it for a song, but the other woods could form some specific pattern.

Jamie,

Interesting idea! I do have some small scraps of cherry from another project... I'll have to sketch some designs and see what happens.

Zach

[Zach Dillinger]

Personally, I think you're nuts.:rolleyes: (You did ask, after all). I just don't have the patience to do something like this, but I think the final outcome will be just as sturdy as a bench-top glued up from larger pieces of wood.

But unless you consider your time free, and there's not something else you'd rather do in the woodshop, I think this goes waaayyyy overboard on the labor side of the equation. Moreover, unless you plane/joint all of these boards, I suspect many of them will have enough twist/bow/cup that you may have difficulty getting all the joints cinched down tight.

My thought would be to make nice maple boxes out of that pile - and make a benchtop out of something else.:)

David,

You are right, I did ask! And to be honest, after I made the purchase and the reality of what I was going to attempt set in, I pretty much figured I was nuts too. But now that my wife found a fresh stack of lumber in the shop (she swears I have too much already), I have to do what I told her I was going to do with it. I took the time at the yard to lay out the bench and I rejected any boards that I found to be off-square. I'm sure I didn't get them all, but the trial glue up I did this morning before work went well.

I should have enough maple left over to make a few nice boxes as well. Perhaps a jewelry box for the wife so she doesn't question my lumber deals anymore...

Thanks,

Zach

[Zach Dillinger]

If you have the time and the glue, go for it. I think that the main issue you'll have is ensuring that the ends of the boards butt up nicely with each other.

But to address this issue:



It's always better to be meticulous, but when I made my benchtop out of 4x4's, I wound up needing to take down about 1/8" to get one side flat. A cambered blade on a jack plane makes this easy to do, and I got the flattening part done over an 8' x 22" area in just about 30 minutes. So don't obsess too much over this part.

If anything, I'd obsess over your end-to-end joints. The flatness of the top can be easily fixed. The end-to-end joints will be harder to fix.

Wilbur,

This was my biggest concern about doing this, how to get the end to end joints to fit nicely. I'm hoping that by being careful with layout (using a block to establish the tongue / pockets), it will be close from the start. Then, hopefully, with a little paring and planing, I can get it to fit nicely without gaps. But, like they say, everybody has a plan until they get hit. So, I guess I will just have to see what happens.

Thanks,

Zach

[Wilbur Pan]

I just thought of two things.

1. If you need to patch up end-to-end joints on your workbench, that would be a great time to learn and practice how to do inlays.

2. If you have gappy end-to-end joints, one area where they might cause real problems is if they overlap dogholes or holes for holdfasts. So you might want to get a real strip of maple for those areas of your bench.

[Zach Dillinger]

I just thought of two things.

1. If you need to patch up end-to-end joints on your workbench, that would be a great time to learn and practice how to do inlays.

2. If you have gappy end-to-end joints, one area where they might cause real problems is if they overlap dogholes or holes for holdfasts. So you might want to get a real strip of maple for those areas of your bench.

Wilbur,

When you say inlays, do you mean something like a dutchman? Dovetail key? Your post just triggered an idea, a dovetail key to help hold the 6 sections together that will make up the 12" wide planks. That would be helpful to hold everything together lengthwise and might make it look kinda cool.

A solid plank of maple in the dog hole area would be a good idea. I was planning to just place my dog holes in the solid sections, between the end joints. I was planning to bore 3/4" round dog holes every 3-4", so I should be able to get them around the end joints.

[Garth Keel]

This sounds like a lot of work, planning, glue and effort. But, on the other hand, this is a hobby not a job. Things like this could well be very satisfying in the long run. Why not? Even if its crazy you could always say you had a "artistic compulsion" to do it. :D

[Zach Dillinger]

This sounds like a lot of work, planning, glue and effort. But, on the other hand, this is a hobby not a job. Things like this could well be very satisfying in the long run. Why not? Even if its crazy you could always say you had a "artistic compulsion" to do it. :D

Garth,

Thanks for the excuse... :) I'm going to give it a go and see what happens. I figure, like you said, it is a hobby for me and not a job so if I'm having a good time in the shop, I don't really factor in the amount of time it takes to accomplish something. I'll be sure to take a few pictures along the way, and maybe a post here and there documenting my progress (or lack thereof) if there is an interest in it.

This has to wait until I finish my new Roy Underhill pine tool chest so that I can take my tools to the MWTCA meet on Saturday. I've decided to build a cherry sliding till with drawers and veneer the inside with cherry... its looking pretty sharp if I do say so myself. I'll get some pics tonight if people want to see it.

[Jeff Wittrock]

Some time ago I had a bunch of narrow strips of poplar laying around....
If I can waste the time (and glue) on a bunch of poplar, then you can certainly feel justified in wasting the time (and glue) on maple :).

Happy gluing.

[Zach Dillinger]

Some time ago I had a bunch of narrow strips of poplar laying around....
If I can waste the time (and glue) on a bunch of poplar, then you can certainly feel justified in wasting the time (and glue) on maple :).

Happy gluing.

Thanks for the inspiration Jeff. That bench looks great.

[Daniel Kennedy]

For the end to end joints, I would consider doing those on the router table with a bit designed for finger joints. I know this is the neander section, but it would probably make your life a little bit easer. If you join all of your wood end to end first, I suspect that it will make the rest of the lamination process easier. It would also eliminate the gaps between the ends. They wouldn't be strong end to end joints but I guess they would be better than butt joints. Good luck.

[Travis Teichmann]

Zach,
I'm building a similar bench from oak (red or white or don't know or care). A wonderful friend gave me enough 1/2" thick x 4"-6" wide oak to make a 24"x6' benchtop. My bench consists of a plywood laminate base (design from a magazine article) with a sub-top of three pieces of laminated 3/4" ply (also from same friend...he was re-doing his bench tops). I'll add the 2" thick oak on top of the plywood sub-top, making a benctop that is about 4-1/4" thick. I may never be able to move the bench, but it will definitely be sturdy enough for hand planing, jumping on, etc.

So far I have the base completed, sub-top installed, and four glued-up slabs of oak ready to glue into wider sections. I'll try to post some pictures tonite.

Travis

[Wilbur Pan]

Wilbur,

When you say inlays, do you mean something like a dutchman? Dovetail key? Your post just triggered an idea, a dovetail key to help hold the 6 sections together that will make up the 12" wide planks. That would be helpful to hold everything together lengthwise and might make it look kinda cool.


I was pretty much thinking along the lines of a dutchman.

I'm not sure I would rely much on dovetail keys to hold your subsections together, though. For your benchtop, you really just want to rely on a nice tight glue joint as much as possible.

[Zach Dillinger]

Daniel,

That would probably be a good idea, but I don't have a router, let alone a router table. I would do as you said, however, if I had one.

Zach

[Zach Dillinger]

Zach,
I'm building a similar bench from oak (red or white or don't know or care). A wonderful friend gave me enough 1/2" thick x 4"-6" wide oak to make a 24"x6' benchtop. My bench consists of a plywood laminate base (design from a magazine article) with a sub-top of three pieces of laminated 3/4" ply (also from same friend...he was re-doing his bench tops). I'll add the 2" thick oak on top of the plywood sub-top, making a benctop that is about 4-1/4" thick. I may never be able to move the bench, but it will definitely be sturdy enough for hand planing, jumping on, etc.

So far I have the base completed, sub-top installed, and four glued-up slabs of oak ready to glue into wider sections. I'll try to post some pictures tonite.

Travis

Thanks Travis. I'd like to see any pics you might have and try to see if I can adapt anything you've done successfully.

[Zach Dillinger]

I was pretty much thinking along the lines of a dutchman.

I'm not sure I would rely much on dovetail keys to hold your subsections together, though. For your benchtop, you really just want to rely on a nice tight glue joint as much as possible.

Yeah, that's true. I might do the keys anyway, just for looks.

[David Keller NC]

Hmm - Well, I still think you're nuts.;), but one thing that pops into my head is that it you know someone with a domino, this is one application that's tailor-made for it - gluing the end grain to end-grain of the short boards. Heck I'd even think about buying one and then selling it for this application - think of it as an open-ended "rental".

Failing that, I'd consider cutting open M&T joints in the ends. They're fast and easy with a flat-topped blade on a table saw and a jig, and they're way stronger than finger joints or just butt joints.

[Jim Koepke]

This has to wait until I finish my new Roy Underhill pine tool chest so that I can take my tools to the MWTCA meet on Saturday. I've decided to build a cherry sliding till with drawers and veneer the inside with cherry... its looking pretty sharp if I do say so myself. I'll get some pics tonight if people want to see it.

I always like pictures of tool chests.

jim

[Wilbur Pan]

Yeah, that's true. I might do the keys anyway, just for looks.

I think "just for looks" justifies anything you do in building a workbench, or other shop projects. ;)

[James Scheffler]

I think "just for looks" justifies anything you do in building a workbench, or other shop projects. ;)

I've been thinking about this, and I don't believe you need to put any special effort into the end grain to end grain butt joints. (As long as you stagger the joints across the width, as suggested above. Picture a floor laid out with random-length boards.)

You will have so much long grain gluing surface on the faces of the laminations that I don't believe that your bench will have any significant loss of strength or rigidity due to the butt joints. The laminations would have to shear apart for the bench to break, and I don't think the thing would deflect at all in normal use. (Now maybe if you were using it to store a wrecking ball that would be an issue!) ;)

If you do this, I would definitely use the full width of the boards so your bench ends up 4" thick. If I understand correctly, I think that's what you're planning anyway.

Jim S.

[rick carpenter]

If anything, I'd obsess over your end-to-end joints. The flatness of the top can be easily fixed. The end-to-end joints will be harder to fix.

You may want to consider half-lap or tongue and groove joints on ends instead of just butting them.

[Jim Foster]

An idea for perfect end to end joints. Cut the ends in a chop saw at 1/8 to 1/4 degree angle, so each board "drafts" inwards on both sides from top edge to bottom. (Leaving the board longest on the top edge)

[Zach Dillinger]

Creekers,

I glued up some sample chunks and tried to fit them together cleanly. After about an hour of doing so (only on one joint) and being unable to achieve tight end to end joints, I've decided to change my tactics a bit. I've purchased two 97" by 4.5" by 3/4" pre-surfaced and jointed one edge boards of quarter sawn white oak. I will use these as the front and back edges of my bench. I've started to laminate the maple pieces to the inside faces of those oak boards, staggering the joints so that they do not overlap. This allows me to ensure that all the end to end joints are tight and that the glue up can progress slowly to avoid mistakes.

I am about 4 layers of maple into the glue up and things are progessing nicely. I hope to have the top glued up within a week. I will be sure to take pictures of the top when it is finished.

I was distracted with the glue up last night and neglected to take pictures of my tool chest progress. I will rectify this tonight.

Thanks, all, for the advice. Here's hoping I end up with a bench thats worthy of all this effort!

Zach