Setting up in a mall kiosk

[Bret Gordon]

Hi, I am brand new to the laser engraving industry but have been doing tons of research and am extremely excited about launching my own laser engraving venture. I am thinking about leasing a kiosk in a mall and doing the engraving there. I don't yet have a laser but have narrowed in on the VLS 3.50 - 50 watt. I understand that I will also need a filtration unit to setup indoors (although I've seen pictures of engravers setup indoors without a blower or a filtration unit which has me confused). Has anyone ever setup their laser in a mall kiosk or a similar setting? If so, I'd love to hear some of your advice and about your experiences!

Thanks in advance!

Bret

[Mike Null]

Bret

Welcome to the forum.

I have no personal experience with kiosks in mall but I have a friend who had one for years offering all manner of engraved gifts. He also had a store location. He closed the kiosk last year because it was losing money.

A number of years ago there were a handful of laser engraver kiosks in malls but I haven't seen one for a long time.

I'd proceed with extreme caution.

[Tim Bateson]

I would suggest you study this forum from start to finish. That will take you a few months. After that if you still want to pursue your venture, I have only one piece of advice. First play the Lottery & hope you hit it big, so as to put food on your table while your venture slowly goes south.

I would be the last person to spit on someone's dream, but I would hate more to know I did nothing & someone failed and lost everything.

I love doing this & wish everyone well. I too almost made your same mistake, but was wise enough to listen to those here that have the experience and know better and to have REALLY studied the market place.

Final advice - buy your laser, study, do your research and pay cash for everything - owe nobody and you'll be fine. This includes cutting all overhead such as renting a store front/kiosk.

Follow this advise and in a few years you'll have a good part time income. Follow it not & you'll be selling that laser in a matter of months for pennies on the dollar.

[Garrett Nors]

The overhead is extreme with mall kiosks/mall storefronts, and when I walk through the malls around here every 3-6 weeks there's always someone new...no one stays for long.

I think you would do 100x better by getting away from the mall aspect of what you want to do. I know there's a lot of foot traffic but those people are usually completely ignorant of your existence just because if they really wanted something they'd go to a store for it.

It's a good idea in theory but I know from personal experience the foot traffic will NOT make you money.

Sorry :( This is a tough industry (trust me, we're struggling ourselves) but if you get your niche and you really get a good base and footing, you'll be set for life.

[Phil Salvati]

Welcome Bret!

I have to say...Tim said it straight forward!

My personal opinion, depending on your location malls are real expensive to rent a booth and it will be tough just to make it on Laser products. Another thought.... most people in a mall will want it right away.... Kind of tough with what you are offering..... You might get away with "While you shop" but you are going to have a huge cash layout for on hand product.

As for myself.... My laser is an addition to several machines in my shop, which is also a retail store. Honestly... my machine runs full time three days a week with orders... In the down time, we are trying new things, making store stock.

As a full service sign & award, embroidery, sublimation and screen printing shop it was a great addition....almost a must in fact! I don't know if I can make it on just lazed products alone.

I would like to hear your thoughts on a business plan.....


Phil

[Bret Gordon]

Thanks everybody for the warm welcome and the advice! I would like to clear a few things up: I have a stable full-time job and intend to keep it that way. I would like to setup the kiosk with a trusted employee or my fiancee running it (preferably the latter for cost reasons). Mall kiosks are indeed expensive: my research has found roughly $3,000 / month in rent and about triple that in November & December. I know it is expensive and I must have a tight business model, which I am working on. Knowing that, I am still interested in hearing people's experiences and advice (even if it is run the other way)! :)

Thanks,

Bret

[Rodne Gold]

Theres no such thing as a trusted employee :)
Letting your fiance manage it , imho, is pretty much a recipe for a pre marital "divorce".
In terms of malls , the general consensus on this board is that its VERY difficult to make money out of gifts novelties and onesies

I suggest you use the 1/2 x2 rule.
Whatever you estimate your income/t/o to be , 1/2 it and double your costs..If it still is economically viable , then go for it.

[Tim Bateson]

Bret,

Making $3,000+/mo - every month is something few of us have yet to accomplish. Those that have do more then engraving and likely work primarily with commercial customers not the general mall type of public.

Regardless of what some salesman may have told you there is a large learning curve and this is not a plug & play business. I would suggest you buy your laser and spend 6-12 months learning to use it before signing for a Kiosk. At that point you may have a better idea what your real money making potential is.

BTW: Welcome to the Creek Bret. :rolleyes:

[Dave Johnson29]

I am thinking about leasing a kiosk in a mall and doing the engraving there.

Hi Bret,

I have no doubt the current comments are honestly and earnestly well-meaning, but maybe scan through this recent thread for some encouragement.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=115589

Tim nailed the most important factor, "pay cash for everything - owe nobody" but I would follow the dream. If it busts then so be it at least you tried and all that was lost is money but you gained experience.

The term Entrepreneur does not mean guarantee, it means risk taker. You have your solid day job, Rodney may be right about an early pre-marital divorce, but if it feels like it might work then give it a shot.

If you can find a niche that lifts you quickly from the $5.00 labels then it may well be a gold mine. No one knows, least of all me. Maybe you can try marking radical designs on ipods, cell phones or laptops. Maybe tile murals. Albeit as Tim also warned there may be a steep learning curve with some of that.

Do a search here for Contributor Onur Kakir. About 6 months back he was learning fast how to make tile displays. Read his success stories.

It is not all doom and gloom. Far better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. OK, a bit foot loose and fancy free with the quotation but you know what I mean. :)

[Dee Gallo]

Welcome to the Creek, Bret! I'm sure you'll find this place great for info and inspiration.

I cannot talk about a mall kiosk, since we don't have malls where I live... but you can search "laser mall" and you will come up with old threads about this topic. It has pros and cons, but only you know your own area.

I did see a place doing on-site, while-you-wait laser engraving: Cooperstown, NY, the baseball hall of fame town. They did bats, mini-bats, plaques and balls. They only charged $6-15 per bat to engrave them, so that means they'd have to do a lot of volume. It was also only part of the shop's inventory, as they also sold jerseys and autographs and other stuff too.

cheers, dee

[Mike Null]

Well, I'll be a little more emphatic about what I think of your idea. If you can't get a 90 day lease I'd say forget it!

Mall business is at an all time low and kiosks are dying a slow death.

Do yourself a favor and visit all the malls within 50 miles of you. Carefully note the vacancies and the traffic. See if you can talk to some kiosk operators.

[AL Ursich]

As for lasers, as of today I saw there are 3 for sale at a deep discount from members here needing to get out of the business.

As for the Mall, unless your future wife is good at Corel draw or another program to quickly make up artwork and photos for the Laser you will be spending late nights making product.

Then the rage in Laser Marking Laptop Computers and music devices is a great market until you mess one up and they start talking about a lawyer....

As for me.... Well, I fell off the 10 year Credit Cliff trying for my dream business.... It's 10 PM and I am in the shop still working....

You would be better off taking the money to Atlantic City and placing it all on one number....

With that said.... Yes, there is a market for Laser Stuff....

Can it support your equipment expenses? That is the gamble that I lost... :eek: Now I do it for fun....

AL:rolleyes:

[Scott Shepherd]

my research has found roughly $3,000 / month in rent and about triple that in November & December.

That's $48,000 a year for rent. For $48,000 you could have a 10,000-15,000 square foot building. That is an insane, repeat INSANE amount of money to pay in rent for a kiosk. To cover $48,000 in rent and cover salaries, insurance, etc., you'll have to be selling about $200,000-250,000 a year in sales. I think that's living in a fantasy world. I don't think there's anyone on this forum that's making that kind of money with a single laser. Most probably struggle to make $30,000 with a single laser, with many less than $10,000 a year with their laser.

I'd be looking at other ideas/options if it were me.

Good luck in your venture, I hope you find what works for you and you are able to do it well.

[Bret Gordon]

All, Thank you so much for the great advice. My idea would focus on engraving laptops and cell phones -- something that would carry basically no inventory, needs high foot traffic, and can be done while the customer waits. This is why I've focused in on the mall kiosk. I've visited multiple malls in my local area, spoken to kiosk owners, questioned potential customers, and ran through various financial scenarios. What I found is high demand but no supply, and a workable financial model...unless my demand estimates are off.

However, I know the members on this forum have been doing this a long time and I will not take your advice lightly. I think the idea is great but I will re-evaluate the mall kiosk venue (assuming I can't get a very short-term lease). Tim -- I agree...I will purchase a laser and spend the time to learn it inside and out before jumping into anything.

Either way, this will be an interesting case study for the forum and I plan to keep you all abreast of my progress (or lack there-of)! Thanks again to you all.

Bret

[Dave Johnson29]

Either way, this will be an interesting case study for the forum and I plan to keep you all abreast of my progress (or lack there-of)!


http://tinyurl.com/mobx9f

[Bret Gordon]

http://tinyurl.com/mobx9f

Great article...thanks for sharing, Dave!

[Rodne Gold]

Your demand estimates might be a little off.
There is often a wide gap tween what ppl say they would have done or do and getting them to actually pull the trigger.
In the 10+ yrs I have been laser engraving , with literally many 1000's of customers ...have never ever been asked to engrave an ipod , cell or laptop.

[Tim Bateson]

I agree with Rodney. Such research is a waste of time. People love my work, but all of that talk only results in a fraction of percentage in real work.
In your business model think about it, a person general owns a cell phone, maybe one laptop, and maybe an ipod. Once engraved, where's your new business? You have a good idea as these are very good income makers, but no repeat business & that is what you want to aim for. Repeat customers is were your reliable income will come from.

Another note: Only some laptops & cell phones can be engraved. Others don't engrave so well.

[Dave Johnson29]

Great article...thanks for sharing, Dave!

Try renting a docu-movie called StartUp.com

Kaleil Isaza the Entrepreneur's Entrepreneur with unbeatable energy, enthusiasm and vision. A great idea dragged to it's knees by "let's play it safe," and other mysteries from those around him.

I love the old adage, "behold the tortoise for he only makes progress with his neck stuck out."

[Dan Hintz]

There is often a wide gap tween what ppl say they would have done or do and getting them to actually pull the trigger.
And how! Over the years I have seen (at best) 35% of the people who say they absolutely "must have" something actually part with cold hard cash. Take any of your numbers and divide them by four... then, and only then, will you have a reasonable assessment of what you may accomplish in sales.

[Dave Johnson29]

35% of the people who say they absolutely "must have" something actually part with cold hard cash.

:) I must be doing something wrong then. I approach things from the other end. I think of a concept then make, then sell them. I **never** ask anyone what they think of stuff. Perhaps arrogant but my feeling is that if there is something I need, use or want then someone else will want it too.

Seems to have worked for the past 30 years. I must admit that during the first few days of getting my laser going I did show and ask people what they thought. I got such a range of answers that few if any were of any help.

The laser was such a new concept for me I had no idea what I could do with it. Fortunately shortly after that I found the 'creek. I then decided on what I wanted to do, made a bunch and placed them on sell or return.

Many years back I made some competition equipment machined from aluminum and anodized a bright red. I got asked could I do them in blue. The more I said "yes" to colors, the more colors I had to stock. I finally realized that asking people what they wanted was not the best thing for business. I adopted Henry Ford's approach and "any color you like as long as it is black."

Stock dropped to one color and sales climbed. Never ask what some else thinks of what you think is right. You will go nuts trying to please most or all of them. A lot of successful selling is about getting the customer to want what you have and not what they may like.

Do you now what the single most effective sales pitch line is in the US? (maybe other Countries too, but I understand the average US buyer's mindset)
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"We are selling a lot of these!"

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with Dan and Rodney. When we talked about going into laser engraving, we had commercial business owners we personally knew tell us they would move their work over to us. These were people that already were using engravers that were taking advantage of them on pricing. We told them we could do them for less, deliver sooner, and do a better job. They were very excited.

Got the laser, called them all, said "We're up and running now". Never saw the first job from any of them. They all continued to use their current suppliers, pay the higher prices, wait longer for delivery, and have less quality. I've talked to them all over the last 2-3 years now many times. Never saw a penny from any of them.

We've even used their services in hopes to gain their business. Didn't work. Never happened.

Now, I believe it when I see the PO number.

Phones and computers. Wow.....that's a tough one. What do you do when they come up with a new coating on the next model phone that doesn't engrave well? Or when the power goes off in the middle of engraving a $2500 Macbook Pro laptop? You can't run it again. You could run it again from the bottom up, but it'll always be a tell tale line where the two sessions start and end.

These aren't things that might happen, they are things that will happen. It's just a matter of time.

[Dave Johnson29]

I was getting a curry ready to simmer for a couple of hours and having a beer and it occurred to me. (beer wisdom??? :)) We come from totally different business backgrounds. I have always designed and built stuff and sold it. Most of the people here were and are dependent on chasing work from people or having someone come to them to do work for them.

It is a totally different mindset but one which I think should be broadened to give more wiggle room in approaching entrepreneurial issues. My thinking is entirely different to most of the people here and that is why I have so much trouble with the nay-sayers.

My attitude to business still holds though, find that niche and work it. Worry about different coatings if and when they happen as they may not happen. Or maybe they get even better coatings to engrave. Why would you only consider things getting worse and not better?

Bear in mind also, the OP has his day job and this is essentailly a throw away issue. He has already stated he is prepared to take the risk. Another old adage, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." I still say, Bret, go for it.

As to power outages a prudent person, and I count myself among those, has UPS everywhere. My laser and computer for it, will run for 25 minutes at full load on the current battery back up. I also have a stand by generator with a panel switch to cover the fridge (beer), freezer 100+lb of frozen meat etc and the computers in the office and workshop.

If I do not get power back in about 10 minutes I crank up the generator. I am not talking big bucks here either a 6500W generator is under $600 bucks. Panel switch around $200. That keeps that $2,500 laptop job pretty safe. For UPS I uses a wattage rating large enough for the stuff I need to keep going then add more batteries in parallel for greater duration. Currently I have 5 x 350W UPS all with extra batteries.

OK, so a generator is not practical in a Mall, but a UPS with supplemmental batteries is just basic common sense no matter where the machine is located.

We seem to have strayed a long ways from setting up in a Mall although I did mention "Mall" 3 times in this posting. :D:D:D

OK, back to stirring the curry instead of the group. ;):)

[Tim Bateson]

...Bear in mind also, the OP has his day job and this is essentially a throw away issue. He has already stated he is prepared to take the risk. Another old adage, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." I still say, Bret, go for it...

Dave you can not be serious :confused::eek::confused: I thought the point of Bret asking for advice was to prevent him from doing something foolish?

I do agree Bret should pursue his dream, but with much more caution. In this economy, few people have the type of money we're talking about here to throw away. Nothing I've heard so far sounds realistic even in a best case scenario.

NOW... having said that... IF Bret comes up with a new idea to drive business, AND has a SOLID business plan (solid as in realistic), AND can afford to take the chance, then by all means I think he should go for it.

[Joe Baker]

Have you ever worked retail? I would rather bang my head against a brick wall. Wholesale or business to business is the only way to go. If you are going to be sucessful customers NEED to have what you are selling. If they dont need it you are going to drown and get mentally beat up every day. I have only had my laser 2 months. I got into this as an add on service to an 8 year old business. Nothing wrong with going after what you want but think about if people need what you are offering.

[Rodne Gold]

I dont think my business is any different to yours Dave we design awards and market a range , we also do custom designs and chase other work.
I deal with both wholesale , B2B and with retail customers...this still doesnt colour my thinking in this particular case.
This mall/laptop thing isn't an "entrepreneur" type business...the concept is not new, there is no special angle here , its been done and been done again and again..no new novel concept... just one of many doing the same thing , chasing the same market.
The OP will have to do about $3-400 a day TO to just break even without any salary or profit and around 700 a day to make a small salary for their "employee" and even more to make a decent profit for themselves. Lets say $850 a day minimum , thats at least 25-30 high cost engravings per day.
Even at that level , return on investment is not going to be anywhere near exciting.

I don't think it's right to offer encouragement and say go for it without severe reservations...treat this as if it were your own money
Here's the rub..would you or anyone else here invest money in this plan? ...I wouldnt even think of it...so if that makes me a naysayer or less than enthusiastic..so be it.

[Zvi Grinberg]

... My idea would focus on engraving laptops and cell phones -- something that would carry basically no inventory, needs high foot traffic, and can be done while the customer waits. This is why I've focused in on the mall kiosk.

Assuming that you do decide for a kiosk at a mall, I would suggest that you would not start before you thoroughly train and practice.

You need to be fast with Corel, wizard with macros, ready with templates, learn how to build jigs (and prepare many of them in advance).

You cannot even hope to be successful in a "While You Wait" business unless you become an expert.

Cell phones are tiny objects that need to be marked in precise areas. They usually have organic shapes and sometimes it's hard to find a level planar face without a jig.
Then there is the trial and error for the correct location or size.
And I did not even start to consider the different colors and materials of the items, and their laser effects.

Not only you get only one shot for each item, you get just one chance for success when you start a business such as you describe.
You must be presented at your best there, from minute one.

In addition to all these, the person that operates such a kiosk must be capable to handle not only the laser job efficiently. There's the customer attention, managing the fast business transactions and minding queues (hopefully) at your front desk.
Technical distraction (or inexperience) does not help in these situations.

It won't work without practice. Whatever your decison would be.

I am selling laser machines.
I saw customers, I witnessed success and failures.
I should know.

[Mike Null]

In 11 years I have engraved one computer and one cell phone.

If I were a banker I wouldn't advance a penny for this idea.

I have spent many years in the retail business, but in the engraving business I do all I can to avoid retail customers. Why? Because You can lose all your profit in the time it takes them to make up their mind. I'm not joking--today I send retail type customers to a young fellow who is just getting started in the engraving business--I just don't have time for them.

That means while your employee is trying to close a sale others will just walk away rather than wait.

[Scott Shepherd]

Dave, I don't think anyone here is being a naysayer. I certainly don't read it that way. What I said, and what I read, is based on reality. I love to dream and dream big. But what's the number one issue with small businesses? Capital. It takes money to make money. And if you are signing a lease from day one that will give someone else $48,000 a year, you better have a truck full of cash stuffed away somewhere.

The "coating" question was one meant to generate thought. Just about every year, someone comes out with some new finish on a phone. If they go to metal backs as some companies have done, will you be spraying Cermark from an airbrush in the mall? No way, ever. Could that cause you problems? Sure it can. Is that a real issue? You bet it is. Will it happen? I have no idea, but to pretend it's not even a possibility is not practical. You better "What if" it to death if need be.

If it's truly a brilliant idea and there is a need, then once you offer up all the "what if's", then you're plan will still be standing.

I don't consider myself a naysayer, but I do consider myself a realist. We just signed a lease for a 2,300 sq ft. space, and I can tell you, it was for a fraction of the cost of that kiosk. In fact, I could buy 2 lasers and pay my rent for just the cost of that kiosk.


For less than $3,000 a month, you could find a local cell phone store and set up next to them or a few stores away and partner with them.

Follow your dream, but do it responsibly.

I engraved 1 laptop (it was mine and broken), and I've never engraved a phone or been asked to. My local relatives own about 10 ipods between them all, and never once has anyone asked me to engrave one of those either.

[Dan Hintz]

On my 35% number...

My LED business was approached from a somewhat unique perspective. I'm a geek. I like lights. I make what I want, and if someone else happens to want one of the same, so much the better... I get to distribute my R&D financials through someone else's pocket book. My first product, a set of full-color LEDs for lighting up an S2000's windscreen, was created because I wanted it. When I realized others wanted it, I turned around and sold 50+ kits within the first couple of months. Animated taillights? Same deal... I wanted them, but it turns out others did, too.

I had 180+ people approach me for those windscreens when I first announced I would put together a kit for sale. They all clamored for it, telling me how cool it was and how much thay had to have it, so I tooled up to make several hundred... and sucked any chance of profit down the drain when 65% of those orders were never followed up with payments. I made that mistake once, and only once.

I still run my LED business in roughly the same way... making toys that I want and letting others have access to them... though I do admit to making certain items general enough that they can be used in vehicles I don't own. It has worked reasonably well for me, but I wouldn't base a laser business off of the model if I intended to make any money off of it. As it stands, the laser currently sits idle more than 95% of the time as I am still trying to find the time to insert it into my business model. I have no qualms about such a high dead time, and it was expected before I ever wrote the check for it. The amount of dead time will eventually change, but I'm in no rush.

[Dave Johnson29]

Sorry for the bulk response, but...

My advice to Bret was the same as Tim's, own everything, don't borrow to do this.

Bret has his day job so I am assuming this is a disposable attempt. If it works, great, if it doesn't at least he tried and it has cost him something for the school fees. Maybe re-read that article on entrepreneurs bouncing back that I posted in an earlier reply. :D

Yes, $48K is a lot of overhead before you burn anything. But, comparing traffic patterns for a 2,300sq ft building on an industrial estate and 5,000 (or whatever) people passing the booth daily in a Mall is not a reasonable comparison. Also Bret will have a good idea of what works well before he has spent the full annual charge. If he can get the 90-day lease then that would be under 10-grand. Given the current business climate I would be amazed if he can't haggle a great deal on the kiosk.

OK, so no one has done many cell phones or ipods, but that is because you never tried to build the demand. That is what I am talking about when I say my approach is to develop a need then sell that rather than waiting for someone to ask you to do something.

So here I give you an edge by exposing one of my methods for free. I got an ipod and burned a radical looking piece of Dungeons and Dragons type artwork on it. I took it to the local net-cafe's after 7:00pm when they were full of kids.

For the first net-cafe I went to, I offered to do the first 5 free. I walked out with 5 ipods and next day I delivered. Two days later there were 12 ipods to pick up. The rest is, as they say, history with probably 100+ ipods done. Oh, and I sold that first ipod that same day. I have never used one and have no need for one, it was merely a vehicle to deliver the product.

OK, guys I will bow out of this conversation as it seems we are never going to agree. I believe I use an entrepreneur's approach rather than satisfying a demand because I create a need or want. Learn, don't learn, follow, don't follow, up to the individual.

All I was trying to impart to Bret was, if you think it will work, it doesn't take bread off the table and money is the only thing to lose then give it your best shot. Only Bret can make that decision whether to risk the cash or not.

I am not so sure about the "while you wait," approach as that puts a lot of pressure on the Corel/Laser user, but certainly a 1-day turn around seems to work. :) Set it all up on a laptop in the Mall and at home and then go into the Mall as early as you can get through the doors and start burning yesterday's orders. Quit sleeping if you have to. :eek::D:D

Oh, and Bret, if you do go ahead with this when you set up the laser consider setting up two angled overhead mirrors at about eye level so that people passing can see what's happening inside the laser. The flashing laser will be like a free neon sign.

Finally for the Cermark thing, use the tape instead of spraying. :D Warning: I have never used the tape.

Just my 2c worth.

[Scott Shepherd]

OK, guys I will bow out of this conversation as it seems we are never going to agree. I believe I use an entrepreneur's approach rather than satisfying a demand because I create a need or want. Learn, don't learn, follow, don't follow, up to the individual.


Dave, no need to bow out. Nothing wrong with different opinions. You touched on exactly my point though. If you are going to offer a 1 day turn around, then you could have a store offsite of the mall for a fraction of the price, work a deal with people that are already in the mall to get the orders. Then you get the orders from the mall, yet you pay rent elsewhere. I think that's just the entrepreneur spirit you are talking about!

Certainly no need to bow out of the conversation. I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and links.

[Tim Bateson]

I agree no need to bow out. Bret needs to hear all sides of this issue. In fact I agree a lot more with your last post. I've been proven wrong before.. Just ask my wife. :o

[Bret Gordon]

OK, so no one has done many cell phones or ipods, but that is because you never tried to build the demand. That is what I am talking about when I say my approach is to develop a need then sell that rather than waiting for someone to ask you to do something.


Gang, Thanks so much for all of the continued input. Following this thread has been very enlightening and thought-provoking. I appreciate that everybody is sharing their honest opinion and I don't consider it as nay-saying but as valuable advice from experienced practicioners. I still think this is a solid idea but after reading this thread, I am going to think long and hard about jumping into the mall kiosk if I can't get a short-term lease considering the cost of rent.

On the other hand, I am not going to let my entrepreneurial dream fade due to the risks (After all, isn't entrepreneurship all about taking calculated risks)? :) If I have to start up in my garage...so be it.

Dave -- I love your enthusiasm and entrepreneurial spirit and I agree with your statement about building a demand like you did with your Ipod experiment.

Thanks again to everybody for your input and I'm excited that this thread has taken on a life of its own as it will hopefully help many aspiring entrepreneurs like me in the future!

Bret

[pete hagan]

[
Good detail on specs in the ad but no reason WHY they are selling. My guess is that the entrepreneur spirit took hold but not enough upfront work to make it work. What this poor soul does not know, unless they are very lucky, is that selling this 37K laser even at a slight discount will be tough in today’s economy. On a happy note my laser paid for itself on three jobs, two which I sold to get the laser and one that came from a referral from the first two. Starting up with a great attitude but no commitment, ie.. actual orders with money attached will lead to frustration. Trust what everyone here is telling you especially about the retail kiosks..They are money pits and you just end up supporting someone’s large mall mortgage.

Best of luck.

Pete

[Dave Johnson29]

Guys, thanks for the encouragement, :) but I was not running and hiding when I said bow out. It is just that to continue, I would have to become repetitive. I have stated my views on this issue and in several other similar threads over the past months. I always meet opposition from the entrenched businesses that have relied on customers coming to them.

I enjoy spirited discussion but see no point in being repetitive. My approach and Onur Kakir's (an probably a few others here) approach to this stuff is totally different to most people here. I have so often heard "get the laser to add to your capabilities, don't get a laser to start the business." While that is good solid and sage advice for someone thinking of starting a laser business, I disagree strongly with that under some clearly defined circumstances.

The underlying thing I see with Bret is that he is not giving up his day job. That makes this a 100% entrepreneurial adventure and that attitude should be encouraged with 90% enthusiasm and 10% practicality. It is OK to lose money, there is no shame in a dream failing as long as you learn from it along the way and can bounce back with new ideas. As I said before, if it is not taking bread from the table and not borrowed money, then give it a shot. Don't make me quote from Othello here. :eek:

Take Ron Popeil for instance. I am not sure if he owns or holds any patents but the stuff he sells is pretty ordinary in the greater scheme of things. Where he is THE Master entrepreneur is generating the need for whatever is his current passion. I mean, spray on hair? He sold millions of cans.

A chicken roaster? Pretty much every oven built in the last 20 years will have a rotisserie option. My BBQ has one available for 25-bucks. It is not the product he sells, it is the need for the product that he creates and sells.

OK, finally back on-track to the Mall. :) The thing Bret would have is 5000 people a day walking past his kiosk. That's a LOT of passing eyes. If he finds a niche (I am not saying it has to be cell phones or ipods et al) and drives it hard, there is great potential with that many people glancing his way **every day,** providing he has the niche covered.

I accept the difference in rent costs but as it is as in the restaurant business, the important thing is bums on seats or in Bret's case, passing eyes. That's why it costs $3K/month as the Mall management spends big bucks getting people to wander the halls of the malls. :) If he haggles for good placement outside say, Sears or Penny's etc he will be getting probably 80% of the daily Mall traffic.

Does he stand a chance of failing? You bet and the odds are pretty strong against him and it may well be tough, BUT unless something is 100% certain then he may not fail. Risk is the only way forward if you have a dream. If it was easy or assured then everyone would be doing it. That's why entrepreneurs make up such a small part of the population.

I am happy to stay with this thread but I am just about out of new thoughts to toss back into the thinking pot. :D:D

[Scott Shepherd]

to continue, I would have to become repetitive.


no point in being repetitive.

Now that cracked me up Dave! :D I don't think you meant it, but when parsed, it's funny to me :)

[Anthony Scira]

There is a guy who has a sticker kisok at the local mall. Looks like he does ok business, but the vinyl plotter is way cheaper than a laser.

Problem is really the set up and pricing. Seems like the going price is 80 - 120 bucks for a laptop. And since there are so many different laptops and various materials it would be hard to have it ready to go. I have done a few laptops and after everything it takes a little over an hour with easy custom graphics. And that's not being disturbed.
Looks like a guy that had it all down is doing coveroos. Check out etchstar, dont know what happened to him. Whats a coveroo ?

[Dave Johnson29]

Now that cracked me up Dave! :D I don't think you meant it, but when parsed, it's funny to me :)

Scott,

You say "parsed," but I say "out of context," but I will grant some leeway there. :) Too early in the morning and my internet had been off for the first two hours of the day, my key order gathering time.

I'll try not to repeatedly, repeat myself.

Now Scott, repeat, recite, ingeminate and reiterate several times after me, "I will try and stay on topic." In the mean time I will say Mall, Mall and Mall so once again I am least mentioning the Subject 3 times. :D

[Rob Slaughterbeck]

Take Ron Popeil for instance. I am not sure if he owns or holds any patents but the stuff he sells is pretty ordinary in the greater scheme of things. Where he is THE Master entrepreneur is generating the need for whatever is his current passion. I mean, spray on hair? He sold millions of cans.

A chicken roaster? Pretty much every oven built in the last 20 years will have a rotisserie option. My BBQ has one available for 25-bucks. It is not the product he sells, it is the need for the product that he creates and sells.


Personally, I do not consider Mr. Popeil to be so much an entrepreneur as a very successful salesman. As you stated, much of what he has sold is nothing new, just a better pitch.

Dave, I get the impression that you are in fact a great salesman as well as having good business acumen. I have seen several great businesses fail or struggle simply because they did not have a good sales and marketing strategy. I have also seen mediocre products be very lucrative BECAUSE they had a great sales force (BOSE for example with something like 50% of their revenue going back into advertising).

From a simple business model analysis, a mall kiosk for engraving is doomed from the start. However, with a charismatic salesperson, one could be very successful selling engraved toilet paper :) with high daily foot traffic. Unfortunately, most people(employees) are not as excited about your business as you(the business owner) are.

If Bret has access to this type of sales talent, there are plenty of products to hawk in the mall will lower financial investment and need for skilled artists than laser engraving. If Bret is looking for a way to pay for a new toy, there are more lucrative ways to market laser engraving services.

Rob

[Dan Hintz]

While Ron was the ultimate salesman, he was also one of the most prolific inventors (and took after his father who did the same thing, with the Veg-O-Matic being possibly the best known). The man could sell ice to an eskimo, but that doesn't mean that's all he did.

Excuse me while I go sing into my Mr. Microphone (by RonCo!)...