Festool Domino Owners

[Jim Tobias]

I recently took out a loan (mortgage rates are low) and bought a Festool Domino. Kidding about the loan, I think. Anyway a couple of project were going to require a lot of mortise and tenons and I thought this was as good a time as any to rationalize why I should buy a Domino. Anyway, I really like the precision of the tool and it sure makes joinery much faster and easier. ALMOST!! I am finding that the fit of the loose tenons is so tight that it is often very difficult to get the joint to close. After so many years of watching Norm slobber on a pint of glue in each joint, I am wondering if I am using too much glue and the "hydraulics" of the fit is such that it is causing the difficulty. Anyway, I have stated using less and less glue to try to not have so much squeeze out and clean up. I may have some joint failure (glue starved), but I had to try something. Anyone else having this sort of problem or have any suggestions?? And yes, I know this qualifies a stealth gloat, but the problem is real!!

Thanks,
Jim

[Michael Schwartz]

For test fitting, I keep a set of dominos I sanded down since it can be pretty tricky to get them out since the fit is tight.

I haven't had any issues with dominos being too tight, but due to humidity an moisture content you might want to ease the fit a bit with either sand paper or a sharp plane if you find its too tight. Chamfering or rounding the sharp edges on the end of a tenon also help in general as well.

A properly fitting tenon of any kind should only take light taps from a mallet (or a palm for that mater) to drive home.

A light film of glue on both surfaces is more than enough, and a small even amount of squeeze out around the joint is a good indicator that the joint is not starved.

[Roger Savatteri]

.

When you are doing your dry fit before gluing try taking those dominos and place them in the microwave for about a minute, if that doesn't work try two minutes, dry fit then glue..... you'll see a big difference in your fit.


cheers,
...r

.

[John Keeton]

Jim, I normally take a safety knife and slice off the ridge on the edges of the domino - seems to make them fit better on the small width mortise - though I usually use the middle width setting. I sometimes will also run the bit in twice on my mortises and that seems to help as well. I will need to try the microwave thing!! Neat idea.

And, to express how I feel about my Domino....http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/studios/9594/heart.gif

Just like a good marriage - the love grows stronger by the day!

[Eiji Fuller]

I have had serious issues with the tightness of the dominoes. I have resorted to making my own.

[Jeff Wright]

I rarely, if ever, use the setting that allows no adjustment of an inserted tenon. I use the middle choice, allowing me to adjust assembled pieces a tad.

I have rarely been able to extract a tenon once inserted, even using vise grips (which of course destroys the tenon). So I don't do test fits. However, the idea of making a couple test fit tenons by sanding them thinner might be worth a try where test fitting is crucial.

[John Keeton]

Has anyone tried these (http://store.cincinnatidowel.com/10mm-x-50mm-Oak-Tuffer-Tenons/46)? I need to replenish a couple of sizes, and have given thought to trying these.

[Narayan Nayar]

I also have a small box of Dominos reserved for dry fitting. I take two swipes of a block plane on each of the edges and one swipe on one faces then write DF (for dry fit) on it with black marker.

But if Jim's problem is that it's difficult to get the joint to close, I wonder if the depth setting is correct. For me, getting the loose tenons in and out can require a little coaxing, but I've never run into a situation where I felt getting a joint to close was any more difficult than with a good M&T. Are you running your Domino with a vac?

[Philip Johnson]

are you using a vacuum with it there is not sawdust left in the holes

[Steve Roxberg]

I have had good luck with the microwave method and it made them fit well.

Any time I purchase a product that includes the little package of beads that absorb moisture I throw the package in with my domino's. Once I started that they all fit really well and can be used for test fits.

I'm sure you could buy them but every electronic item I purchase seems to have them.

Humidity is the problem and that is what the microwave solves.

[Peter Quinn]

I've used the domino on a 1/2 dozen projects at work, and IMHO those things are simply too tight. You gotta bang them in, you gotta yank them out with vice grips which kills them, I've had to sand every single one I have used, and not just for dry fit. I sand the actual users, because on a complicated frame or assembly the last thing I want is the first domino installed set up and frozen beyond adjustment before the clamps go on. Did anyone tell Festool that we use glue in our joints over here in the States? How are you supposed to get a 4mil glue film in a joint you have to smash together with a big hammer?

As far as depth, the tool gives a perfect 1/16" glue space at each end of the loose tenon when set to the proper depth for the domino you are using, so assuming there are no chips in there if you have too much hydraulic pressure to close up the joint with and lots of squeeze out when clamping then I'd cut back on the glue in the hole.

[John Stevens]

Congrats on the Domino, glad you find it worth the money. Answers to your questions:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1081976&postcount=2

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1075890&postcount=25

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1075882&postcount=24

Sorry to be so verbose, but hope this helps.

Regards,

John

[Jim Tobias]

Thanks to all for the answers and help. I am using the correct depth setting and I am using a vacuum attachment to keep wood chips out of the mortises.
I have to say Peter sounds just like I feel about the tight fit. I know there were suggestions of creating a "dry fit" set of tenons and I have already done that and I use them. But, when it comes to thr real deal and glue up, it has simply been too tight. It is not reasonable(at least to me) that I am going to have to use a plane or a chisel and take shavings off of every tenon that I use.
I may be using toom much glue. I am putting a fairly thin coat on each side of the tenon and then coating the surfaces inside the mortise. Maybe my thin coat is still too thick. I am going to try less and less glue (until I have joint failure from a glue starved joint).
In the meantime, I am also going to try the microwave tip. That soudns logical and simple enough. Also going to start saving the "moisture absorbing" packets.
Again, thank for all of the suggestions.

Jim

[Jay MacDougall]

Has anyone tried these (http://store.cincinnatidowel.com/10mm-x-50mm-Oak-Tuffer-Tenons/46)? I need to replenish a couple of sizes, and have given thought to trying these.


I've tried them and found they were just too inconsistent in size, some were so loose they would practically fall out of the mortise and others were so tight I couldn't get them in.

[Eiji Fuller]

I have used the microwave technique and it works sometimes, but not all of the time. If the domino tenons are milled too big and are dry, the microwaving doesnt work.

I have had the biggest problems with the 5mm and 6mm tenons. The 8mm and 10mm tenons seem to have a better fit. but lately that has gotten worse. I purchased a box of the 10mm tenons and the fit was really tight. the microwave didnt help so I had to sand them.

I should have known better and just made some more but I was in a hury. I have to sand each one to fit for a project with 80 tenons. :eek: When I make them myself they fit perfect.

It really is a snap to make them. I rip them a hair big and thickness them in the planer. I dont try to match the round ends of the mortise but cut them square and bevel them on the jointer or router table. You can make them out of any species you want and make them to fit the different widths and depths the Domino can cut.

[Peter Quinn]

It is not reasonable(at least to me) that I am going to have to use a plane or a chisel and take shavings off of every tenon that I use. Jim

Jim, I give them a quick touch on a horizontal belt sander. They aren't over by much, just enough to make it tough. I should note the dominos (machines and biscuits) were purchased by my employer as part of a kit, used far a project where we made our own tenon stock from mahogany for an exterior project, and the dominos we have have been opened and sitting in unconditioned space for several years. The same problem occurs with biscuits too over time. But i have actually opened a fresh sealed package in search of answers and found those to be too tight for glue ups, just not as tight as the old ones. I'll be damned if I am going to buy descant packs and a cryo-vac machine to keep small chips of wood fresh, so the sander is my friend. Otherwise the domino thing is a beautiful concept.

[Narayan Nayar]

It is not reasonable(at least to me) that I am going to have to use a plane or a chisel and take shavings off of every tenon that I use.

I hear where you're coming from, but don't know how you think this situation might be avoided.

One of the purported advantages to the Festool system is that the loose tenons are made of hardwood, so you get a long grain glue surface. If wood is going to expand and contract, I don't know how Festool could make a supply of hardwood Dominos that fit perfectly unless they did it in your shop right before the project came together :).

I'm guessing that given the quality of their equipment and the precision of their manufacturing, that the Dominos do, at least at some point, provide a perfect fit. If they made them smaller, they might not fit so well at times, and I'd prefer a tenon I can make smaller than a tenon which needs to be larger. Perhaps Eiji has the best solution here--making them at home.

I suppose they could make dominoes out of some kind of composite material, but even biscuits swell and contract--much more so than Dominos in my experience.

Anyway, none of this is to trivialize your frustration, but rather to say that given what Dominos are (hardwood products), it's difficult for me to think how it could be different, and as such, the contingencies seem more than reasonable, at least to me.

Oh, and I should also add--it's hard to gauge your level of frustration, but if you really don't like the system, Festool does offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee.

[Steven J Corpstein]

I am far from an expert woodworker, but I've not had any of the issues that you guys are talking about. I do know I read several posts on the FOG that proper holding and plunging technique was imperative to good fit. Maybe I'm just lucky but I really like the thing.

[Jim Tobias]

Don't misunderstand, I absolutely love the Domino and the precision with which it cuts mortises and the adjustability and the add ons for spacing, etc. etc. I guess I thought that if I opened a new sealed package of domino tenons and used them within an hour, they would fit better. Anyway, today I microwaved a few of the 8mm and used them and they seemed to go in easily. Maybe this will be the long range solution. I am also using less and less glue(although I was never layering it on when I was having the joint closing problems.
Anyway, I will microwave and sand my tenons until something comes along that may resolve the problem/ Maybe there is a festool microwave in the works! Wonder when it will be intorduced in the states??
Thanks for all the replys and advice. I do appreciate it and can always count on SMC to provide solutions.
Jim

[Narayan Nayar]

bMaybe there is a festool microwave in the works! Wonder when it will be intorduced in the states

It's top secret, but inside sources tell me that Festool is currently developing a microwave specifically for this purpose. Like all Festool gear, it attaches to the MFT and uses the Plug-it cord. With an optional accessory, can utilize the Festool guide rails, making it possible to microwave either a single Domino, a line of Dominos, or a long frankfurter or currywurst with confidence and precision.

The dust collection is superb, particularly with the sausages. The result is a brilliantly engineered microwave system--a Nuketainer--if you will.

p.s. There are some early reports that the sausages used with this system don't fit very well into their Festool bread attachments. A light touch on a belt sander will do the trick.

[johnny means]

I definitely know some Festool groupies that would buy it.


It's top secret, but inside sources tell me that Festool is currently developing a microwave specifically for this purpose. Like all Festool gear, it attaches to the MFT and uses the Plug-it cord. With an optional accessory, can utilize the Festool guide rails, making it possible to microwave either a single Domino, a line of Dominos, or a long frankfurter or currywurst with confidence and precision.

The dust collection is superb, particularly with the sausages. The result is a brilliantly engineered microwave system--a Nuketainer--if you will.

p.s. There are some early reports that the sausages used with this system don't fit very well into their Festool bread attachments. A light touch on a belt sander will do the trick.

[Eiji Fuller]

I hear where you're coming from, but don't know how you think this situation might be avoided.

One of the purported advantages to the Festool system is that the loose tenons are made of hardwood, so you get a long grain glue surface. If wood is going to expand and contract, I don't know how Festool could make a supply of hardwood Dominos that fit perfectly unless they did it in your shop right before the project came together :).

I'm guessing that given the quality of their equipment and the precision of their manufacturing, that the Dominos do, at least at some point, provide a perfect fit. If they made them smaller, they might not fit so well at times, and I'd prefer a tenon I can make smaller than a tenon which needs to be larger. Perhaps Eiji has the best solution here--making them at home.

I suppose they could make dominoes out of some kind of composite material, but even biscuits swell and contract--much more so than Dominos in my experience.

Anyway, none of this is to trivialize your frustration, but rather to say that given what Dominos are (hardwood products), it's difficult for me to think how it could be different, and as such, the contingencies seem more than reasonable, at least to me.

Oh, and I should also add--it's hard to gauge your level of frustration, but if you really don't like the system, Festool does offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee.


I do think that I have the best solution but I disagree that it would be hard for festool to make the dominoes fit better. The discrepency in fit is in both the width and thickness. The dominoes tenons being 5,6,8,and 10mm thick should not be able to swell that much to make them too tight to fit. I think they are being milled too thick to start. I have milled 10mm thick tenons that fit perfectly over a year after I made them. I thickness them to a point to where they slip in easily but dont wiggle in the mortise.

[Tim Wagner]

wish I had 800 to spend on a domino. :mad:

[Narayan Nayar]

I do think that I have the best solution but I disagree that it would be hard for festool to make the dominoes fit better. The discrepency in fit is in both the width and thickness. The dominoes tenons being 5,6,8,and 10mm thick should not be able to swell that much to make them too tight to fit. I think they are being milled too thick to start.

Right, but the majority of the time I don't have any problems with my Dominos. I do use the ones I've prepared for dry fitting for, well, dry fitting, and though I've encountered difficulties with a few odd dominos during glueup, most of them go in completely, if not with finger or arm strength, then with one or two taps of a block of wood or mallet or even with clamp pressure, and this seems to me how it should be. I have yet to have a Domino joint I've made fail on me.

Maybe I live in the perfect climate for dominos or have a talent for keeping them dry and relatively stable (it'd be my only talent, so I'm hoping that's the case). If they were made smaller, then these which fit so well for me would fit less well.

Disclaimer: I bought the domino assortment when I purchased the machine (back when it came out), and I've since bought two boxes of the 5mm and a box each of the 6 and 8s. So maybe there are newer ones which are causing more difficulties, and I just haven't encountered them.

[Dan Forman]

If you experiment with plunge technique, you will find that the faster you plunge, the looser the fit will be. A very slow careful plunge will result in a very tight fit. Very fast will be much looser. Somewhere in the middle...

By the way, re: the Festool microwave --- don't trim the bratwurst on a Sawstop, use the bandsaw.

[Craig Coney]

It's top secret, but inside sources tell me that Festool is currently developing a microwave specifically for this purpose. Like all Festool gear, it attaches to the MFT and uses the Plug-it cord. With an optional accessory, can utilize the Festool guide rails, making it possible to microwave either a single Domino, a line of Dominos, or a long frankfurter or currywurst with confidence and precision.

The dust collection is superb, particularly with the sausages. The result is a brilliantly engineered microwave system--a Nuketainer--if you will.

p.s. There are some early reports that the sausages used with this system don't fit very well into their Festool bread attachments. A light touch on a belt sander will do the trick.


Will it attach to the top of the CT-22 and double as an extension table for the MFT? Does it have holes on top too for clamps and accessories?