What would a Neander do?

[Brian Kent]

I know I can't post in two places at once, but I have a challenge to solve either with power tools or Neander tools. It is posted in general woodworking. If you have any tail-less ideas, please jump in.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=115647

I am wondering about Lee Valley chair-maker scrapers, scorps…

Also possible is making a krenov style plane with a rounded base. I've made lots of planes but never a rounded plane.

Thanks

Brian

[Johnny Kleso]

I cant follow what your trying to do..

When you say cross hatched area, your talking the two areas north and south of the center right?
You'er trying to raidus the tops of those two areas?

I think a sketch would be worth a 1,000 words as since its end grain I think I'll talking about I might cope saw it and sand it but I'm not really sure what you want done..

Edit 1
OK I got it.........

I think... :)

After you have your joints cut..
I would square the top and bottom of the diamond..
I would then use my table saw to mill the raidus with the method of passing the work over the blade at a skewed angle..
You may have to do a left and right side pass..

Glenn Huey from PWW has a nice Video on make a small chest on how to set it up and the WW Channel was running the video but not sure if they still do... A lot of books illustrate the method for making Ogee Feet..

Edit 2

If you have a dummy leg with joint 2" high and as long as the joint and fits into each leg joint, you can use the face oppsite the joint to rest on the TS table and use the side of the leg to ride a fench to cut a shallow kerf 1/4" deep into the diamond secton and then make your raidus in between the kerf cuts, this way your leg sides will all match up perfect..

[Steve Hamlin]

By hand, I'd scribe my curve top and bottom, then cope and refine with rasps and files.
But by choice I'd bandsaw and bobbin sand - it's just makes it too easy to fair curves.

[Brian Kent]

I added a 3-D sketch to the post in general woodworking.

It shows the problem that I am not just rounding beside a 2" leg, but all the way up and down the center post. The Maloof style legs attach all the way up the post.

Brian

[mike holden]

Brian,
i would use the appropriate sized round from a set of hollows and rounds, after sawing off the xs by hand.
Mike

[Brian Kent]

Mike, that sounds like a good way to go. I see a 1-1/4" hollow and round set at Japan Woodworking for $58. That is a little smaller radius than I need, but I could cut away material carefully and then sand.

Is there a source you know of for hollows and rounds?

Brian

[mike holden]

Brian,
The only new hollow and rounds I am aware of are the Japan woodworkers, HNT Gordon, and Clark&Williams. Philly planes will make to order.
Otherwise, it is a hunt for used ones.
Or make your own.

BTW, Hollows will make a larger trench than their stated size by angling the plane. As long as your trench is a fair curve, no one will know, notice, or care that it is not perfectly circular.

Mike

[David Keller NC]

"Is there a source you know of for hollows and rounds?"

As Mike noted, those are the only sources that I know for new, traditional hollows and rounds. You will be waiting quite a long time for a half-set from Clark and Williams, though you could call them to see what the current backlog is. It's also possible that D.L. Barrett and Sons in Canada would make you a set as a custom order.

However, the most cost-effective way to get a half set of hollows and rounds are as antiques. You can buy sets either as "all one owner, all one manufacturer" like these:

http://www.thebestthings.com/molding.htm#British_MP (page down a bit to "MP90628 Routledge, Birmingham" - this set includes a set of side-beads (which are also incredibly useful)

Generally speaking, these types of sets are the easiest to tune and use, because they were produced by a maker all at one time, so you can be confident that the graduations are right, and each size hollow matches the equivalent round.

The other option for an antique set are so-called "Harlequin Half-Sets". These are assembled sets put together by English dealers, and usually are a gaggle of different makers and owners. Depending on the care with which the set was assembled, you may get a more or less matching set with good graduations, or you may not. This company (Old Tools UK) often has half-sets for sale, and harlequin sets generally go for about $350-$600, depending on condition and how well they match up.

http://www.oldtools.co.uk/tools/planes_scrapers/wooden.planes/wooden.planes.php (they've sold their sets on the website at the moment, but you could call and ask)

Another source is Tony Murlands - scruffier planes, but cheaper:

http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/toolbox.php?pageNum_rsProducts=0&totalRows_rsProducts=35&category=Wooden%20planes

It's hard to say whether it'd be worth it for you to purchase a half-set of H&Rs, as that depends on whether you wish to regularly make moldings without tailed assistants in your shop. For most of us Neanders, they're essential - I wouldn't be without my set.

[Wilbur Pan]

I don't have much to add on the hollows and rounds idea, but it seems to me that some good rasps would be really useful for this project as well.

[Brian Kent]

You are right Wilbur. I have a #49 and plan on buying a #50 for this project.

I am looking at a home-made block plane and wondering if I could rise to the challenge of making it into a round bottom plane. It has a Hock blade with chip-breaker and a wedge to hold it into place. The side walls are a bit thicker than normal so I think it could handle the rounding structurally.

[Wilbur Pan]

Reading between the lines, I'm guessing that your block plane has a wooden body. If so, it would be pretty easy to convert it. What I would do is take the profile that you want, and shape the bottom of the plane to fit that profile. Then grind the blade to match.

[Brian Kent]

Yes, it is made of wood. I would not like to grind a metal plane to shape:eek:.

[Jon van der Linden]

The way I would do this is by cutting the joints, then working working carefully to the layout lines for the legs. Cutting most of the excess on a bandsaw is fast and ideal, it can be done with a handsaw as well. For the small hollow I might run it over the jointer or even use a handplane.

Hollowing out the large hollows can be done quickly on a router, I would then move on to a gouge or planes if I had one of the appropriate curve. If you're thinking of a Krenov style plane, keep in mind that the radius for Hock blades is just that, it is not the effective cutting radius which is much more shallow. I would skip on rasps and files, they're not that effective in long hollows. Depending on how things look I might not do any work on the small hollow until after the legs are attached.

Finishing the hollows would be done after the legs are attached using a purpose made sanding block, shaped much like a traditional round (from a hollow/round set). Slightly smaller than the hollow to allow for the sandpaper, this will also smooth the joint into the legs. If you're lacking a suitably curved plane, the sanding block along with some 30-36 grit paper will work fairly well for roughing out the shape.

Lots of ways to do this, this would be my hand method of choice.

Clarification on the sanding block: I would taper one side of the sanding block so that it could be used to fair the hollow into the leg. You'd have to flip it around to do the other side of the hollow.

[David Keller NC]

As John mentions, I'd have real doubts about whether a wooden smoother could be sufficiently radiused to do this effectively. If you want to try, I'd recommend a mini-smoother with an iron no wider than 1-1/2". That might get you where you want to go for the larger radius curves, but not the smaller ones.

While I don't generally recommend sandpaper, this is one case where it would help out enormously - I'd take about a #5, 8mm wide gouge to hog out most of the waste on the smaller hollow, and finish up with some 80 grit aluminum oxide wrapped around a profiled sanding block.

[Brian Kent]

Jon, great to hear from you. This is actually the project we talked about months ago, only with the burl now used as a coffee table rather than as a sofa table.

John and David, I think you have excellent suggestions and I will probably head that direction.

I turned my small smoother / big block plane into a curved bottom plane this morning. This was a plane that worked very well, but I have another that works even better that I left alone. I cut off a little of the waste with the band saw and then sanded on the belt sander.

Then I took the straight edge Hock blade and rounded it to the right radius and put a bevel on it. The plane is 2.25" wide and the blade is 1.5" The plane is the same width and bottom radius that I expect the cove to be, but I assume I'll need to refine the radius some when the parts are assembled..

I will assemble and attach the legs before doing the cove. When I was laminating the pieces that will be the pedestal center, I planed the edges to get the grain direction right. Oddly enough in a couple of cases I switched directions from what I thought would be the right direction after looking at the grain.

After the plaining I'll use the coarse papered block to shape. Excellent idea on tapering one side.

For the small cove I'll wait until it is assembled to choose a gouge since I can adjust for the margin of error.

Thank you.

[Brian Kent]

I made the basic post with the long corners cut off. Then I roughed out the concave groove using the round-bottom plane, staying away from the edges so I still have some material left to close in on the legs.

[Johnny Kleso]

Looks very nice...

[Jim Koepke]

Fantastic! Now when people look at the table and question you about making it, they will be even more amazed when you tell them that you also built some of the tools to make it.

jim

[mike holden]

Brian,
Looking good!
Cant wait to see the finished product.
Mike