Need advice on Combination machine purchase

[John Harden]

Hello, I've been around here awhile, but don't post very much. I'm a hobbyist woodworker who builds furniture using primarily solid stock, though I do a bit of veneering and occasionally use sheet goods.

I'm prepared to make the switch to a saw/shaper combo and a jointer/planer combo (two seperate units) to replace my stand alone machines (PM-66, Delta 8" jointer, etc.). This would be to save some space, but also to gain some capacities and new capabilities. For example, I don't currently own a shaper and I also like the functionality and inherent safety offered by a sliding table.

The purpose of my post is to get the opinions of folks who have first hand experience with Mini-Max Elite series and/or Felder 700 series machines as these are the two I'm considering. My primary requirements are:

16" jointer/planer capacity
8.5'-9' slider capacity
Single phase

Power drive and digital readout on the planer would be nice, but not a deal killer.

I've done a number of searches here, read quite a few threads and have learned quite a bit. I'm also a member of the MOG and FOG, Yahoo user groups which have also been a great source of information. Over the next three days, I'm visiting the shops of MiniMax and Felder customers who live near me, and who have the machines I am interested in. In the meantime, my Felder and Mini-Max reps are both sharpening their pencils and refining their quotes.

I currently own a MM20 bandsaw, so I'm well acquainted with the quality and excellent customer service offered by Mini-Max. No complaints there at all. On the other hand I also own a BMW motorcycle and admire the German/Austrian penchant for overengineering everything. I've heard only good things about the quality of Felder, but this seems to come at a steep price.

Not looking to start any arguments here or to discuss customer service merits, etc. I'm really interested in hearing from folks who have used similiar machines from both companies and can offer learned opinions on quality of product compared to cost.

Also, what about accessories for both companies? I know Felder has a ton as I have their catalogue, but what about MM? Their website doesn't show much and frankly, I forgot to ask my MM rep.

Regards,

John

[Chris Padilla]

I have the FS41-Elite. It is actually 41 cm (which is a hair over 16" :D ).

I find it a very good machine to use. Mine has the 3-knife Tersa head and I believe the newer ones have 4 knives. Piece of cake to change...couldn't be easier.

I do not have any extras and just hand crank the wheel during changeovers. It is not that big a deal.

I also have an MM20 so lottsa white in my shop and I very satisfied. I don't you can go wrong with either brankd, frankly. :)

[Charlie Plesums]

I chose the MiniMax CU410 elite over the Felder 700 series because the price was MUCH lower when I bought it, the design was simpler (more maintainable) and the functionality was excellent.

One of the zingers was configuring the Felder... everything was an option, and hard to decide what was important when I hadn't used one. One of the things MiniMax did on the bigger machines was make almost all the options standard equipment, so they wouldn't have to market all sorts of combinations and upgrade kits. They have gone back to a few options, but not many.

I would be glad to chat in person if you want to give me a call, or send me a phone number or skype ID. I love my machine, and have used it full time since I retired over 4 years ago.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

John, from an unabashed Felder fan, I bet you won't be sorry if you spend the extra. Nothing wrong with MM, good stuff, but look at both machines and see what you think. I did, and chose Felder. Hard to describe, but I guess you could say that Felder is built exactly as you would expect a $26,000 machine to be.

Personally I like the options. I have a list of add ons that I'm interested in if the right project comes up, but I don't need them right now. I like to have the machine that is built exactly as I want it, to be most efficient for my workflow. It seemed to me that buying a Felder was like ordering your new car custom built from the factory, while MM is like finding one you like on the lot.

Honestly, you can't go wrong with either, but I still love that little buzz I get every time that I even see my Felder. What a machine...

[John Harden]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I just returned from visiting the shop of a local guy who has a Felder KF700SP sliding panel saw with shaper and a AD741 jointer/planer w/power drive. These are the exact two machines I'm considering if I were to go the Felder route. They are certainly built like a tank and that 9.5' slider is L O N G!!!!!

Its true that the Felder is pretty bare bones and when you add in accessories that the price goes up.

On Sunday, I'm visiting the shop of an owner of a CU410E Elite combo, so I'll be able to compare the two.

One question you folks might be able to help with. MM has a couple of machines I'm considering. One is a ST-4 Elite Saw/Shaper combo and the other is a S315WS sliding panel saw. Besides the shaper, what is the difference between these two saws? Are the castings or sliding tables of different qualities or are they basically identical? Just curious.

Also, do the Mini Max sliders or combo's come with an electric braking system?

Regards,

John

[charles argo]

I just placed an order for the Felder CF741SP, which is the full combo, in May. I found the Felder rep easy to work with and helpful in deciding on the option package. I personally like the fact that I can configure the machine to suit my needs. I spent a couple of weeks deciding on the options, and am confident I covered all the bases. I would be happy to explain my choices if you are interested.

[John Harden]

Charles, I'd love to here your logic for your choices of options.

For reference, I'm leaning towards:

2800mm slider length - to clear the blade while ripping/crosscutting 8' panels or boards.
1500mm outrigger table - for size and capacity
43", small crosscut fence - I'll use this for mitering smaller boards while the outrigger is not mounted.
Two eccentric clamps - self explanatory
31" rip fence - I do most ripping on the slider
Parallel cutting device - Makes ripping longer boards on the slider easier.
Router spindle - To use roueter bits with shaper unit
Remote start on slider - convenience
Mechanical digital readout on shaper height and saw tilt - for accuracy
Mechanical scoring
Precision mitre indexing
Cast iron extension

For the jointer all I was going to get was the digital power drive.

I use a Leigh, FMT for most mortising, so I doubt I'd get my money's worth out of a mortiser.

Any suggestions on shaper cutters? I do a lot of template routing, and lately, I'm pushing the upper limits (on size) of what a router can handle. Is there a good template following shaper head you'd recommend? A lot of my templates are curved. Will I need the small shaper head for curved work?

Regards,

John

[Wes Grass]

The 'Comfort' guard for the jointer is nice, as it folds out of the way when you're jointing wide boards.

They have 'planing' heads for the shaper, and guide rings/bearings to stack with them. Available in spiral indexable insert or straight blades. They'll make your router look like a Dremel tool ;-)

I've found the digital indicators for angle adjustment not exactly accurate, but close enough to get you dialed in to use a digital gauge like Wixey makes if you need the last fraction of a degree.

I also have one for the saw height adjustment. Haven't got one for the shaper yet. The inch version doesn't read in a logical manner, as the machine moves 2mm per turn. But the .01" counter is close enough for saw height, and you can use the dial for fine adjustments after that. Probably fine for the shaper as well.

I left the cast iron extension attached to the planer table, and got a couple of the wide aluminum ones for the saw. 'A couple', as I added rails to my Laguna bandsaw to adapt the Felder extensions to it. They're expensive, but a really substantial chunk of aluminum.

I have short slider, so can't help you on the outrigger. The indexed mitering looks really nice.

[charles argo]

Hello John,
I ordered my machine 5hp/1ph so I didn't have to fuss with a converter.
I went with the 2800mm slider for the same reason you stated. I also ordered the 1500mm outrigger and the remote start option.
I got the 43" fence as well, along with the extension table for the slider to use in conjunction with the short fence. This is the extension with the "P" coupling.
I added the short rip fence. When you use the regular rip fence as a bump stop with the slider, you have to pull it back even with the blade. This leaves part of the fence hanging way out in front of your machine. Short rip fence solves this problem nicely.
A standard splitter for doing non-through cuts (12.5.122). The stock riving knife sits above the blade.
miter indexing.
Eccentric clamp - would like an air driven clamp (Big Squeeze) at some point.
tilt angle dials in shaper and saw handwheels.
mechanical scoring.
2 cast iron extensions. The jointer tables are shorter on the combo than the regular AD741, so I wanted one front and back if needed.
An extra crosscut stop. You will use this more than you might think.
Power feeder with tilt away bracket. I wouldn't consider doing many shaper operations without one.
Heavy duty curve shaping device -aka- Aigner BowmouldMaster. If you do curved work on the shaper, this is the nicest, safest accessory for it. Not cheap though. With curved moulding stops and guide bearing it's $1000. It also works as a tenoning hood. Refer to David Best's Survival Guide.
Another nice Aigner product - the counter profile workpiece holder(01.0.019). Allows you to hold narrow pieces when working on the shaper - doing coping cuts for instance.
I did not get the parallel cutting device. My rep told me feedback to him was that it was fussy and slow to set up. Most guys just rip narrow stock conventionally with the fence, using the slider as an assist. So I passed on that one.
I also passed on the router spindle. I just don't think that big shaper fence is what I want to do small router details with. I'm keeping my Jess-Em router table for all router operations and using the shaper only as a shaper.
I ordered the power drive option for the planer table. Having seen this work in person, I wouldn't go without it. I also added the comfort guard so I wouldn't run into it walking around the machine.
I am also getting the FD250 mortiser as a stand alone machine. I do entry doors as well as furniture and felt justified going with a dedicated machine.

As for cutters, I think I'm going to try a Byrd helical head for template work. You can get them in a variety of sizes, you just need a bearing to match. Felder sells a spiral cutter as well, so does Amana. Felder's stuff is all 30mm, so decide if you're going to use them as a tooling source. You might want to get a 30mm spindle. I ordered the 1-1/4". Best of luck with your decision.

Charles

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hello John,
I ordered my machine 5hp/1ph so I didn't have to fuss with a converter.
I went with the 2800mm slider for the same reason you stated. I also ordered the 1500mm outrigger and the remote start option.
I got the 43" fence as well, along with the extension table for the slider to use in conjunction with the short fence. This is the extension with the "P" coupling.
I added the short rip fence. When you use the regular rip fence as a bump stop with the slider, you have to pull it back even with the blade. This leaves part of the fence hanging way out in front of your machine. Short rip fence solves this problem nicely.
A standard splitter for doing non-through cuts (12.5.122). The stock riving knife sits above the blade.
miter indexing.
Eccentric clamp - would like an air driven clamp (Big Squeeze) at some point.
tilt angle dials in shaper and saw handwheels.
mechanical scoring.
2 cast iron extensions. The jointer tables are shorter on the combo than the regular AD741, so I wanted one front and back if needed.
An extra crosscut stop. You will use this more than you might think.
Power feeder with tilt away bracket. I wouldn't consider doing many shaper operations without one.
Heavy duty curve shaping device -aka- Aigner BowmouldMaster. If you do curved work on the shaper, this is the nicest, safest accessory for it. Not cheap though. With curved moulding stops and guide bearing it's $1000. It also works as a tenoning hood. Refer to David Best's Survival Guide.
Another nice Aigner product - the counter profile workpiece holder(01.0.019). Allows you to hold narrow pieces when working on the shaper - doing coping cuts for instance.
I did not get the parallel cutting device. My rep told me feedback to him was that it was fussy and slow to set up. Most guys just rip narrow stock conventionally with the fence, using the slider as an assist. So I passed on that one.
I also passed on the router spindle. I just don't think that big shaper fence is what I want to do small router details with. I'm keeping my Jess-Em router table for all router operations and using the shaper only as a shaper.
I ordered the power drive option for the planer table. Having seen this work in person, I wouldn't go without it. I also added the comfort guard so I wouldn't run into it walking around the machine.
I am also getting the FD250 mortiser as a stand alone machine. I do entry doors as well as furniture and felt justified going with a dedicated machine.

As for cutters, I think I'm going to try a Byrd helical head for template work. You can get them in a variety of sizes, you just need a bearing to match. Felder sells a spiral cutter as well, so does Amana. Felder's stuff is all 30mm, so decide if you're going to use them as a tooling source. You might want to get a 30mm spindle. I ordered the 1-1/4". Best of luck with your decision.

Charles


Charles, you're 99% correct, but a couple things. Most of Felders cutters are 40mm, not 30mm, and the standard riving knife will adjust under the apex of a 12" blade for non through cuts. A dedicated splitter is not needed for this function.

Highly agree on the short rip fence. As well as being in the way, when the long one is moved back for cut offs, it also balances in the wrong place.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Charles, I'd love to here your logic for your choices of options.

For reference, I'm leaning towards:

2800mm slider length - to clear the blade while ripping/crosscutting 8' panels or boards.
1500mm outrigger table - for size and capacity
43", small crosscut fence - I'll use this for mitering smaller boards while the outrigger is not mounted.
Two eccentric clamps - self explanatory
31" rip fence - I do most ripping on the slider
Parallel cutting device - Makes ripping longer boards on the slider easier.
Router spindle - To use roueter bits with shaper unit
Remote start on slider - convenience
Mechanical digital readout on shaper height and saw tilt - for accuracy
Mechanical scoring
Precision mitre indexing
Cast iron extension

For the jointer all I was going to get was the digital power drive.

I use a Leigh, FMT for most mortising, so I doubt I'd get my money's worth out of a mortiser.

Any suggestions on shaper cutters? I do a lot of template routing, and lately, I'm pushing the upper limits (on size) of what a router can handle. Is there a good template following shaper head you'd recommend? A lot of my templates are curved. Will I need the small shaper head for curved work?

Regards,

John

John, a 2500mm slider will clear the blade with 8ft sheet goods. I do it on mine all the time. No harm in a longer slider, if you have the extra room to have another foot of table residing in all the time.

That eccentric clamp is a monster. I really doubt that you will ever need two for anything that I can think of.

The only differences between your list and my CF 741 Pro is the 2500mm slider, and I use an 1 1/4" and a 40mm spindle, no router. I also did not order the parallel cutting device, but am planing on buying it. Like Charles mentioned, I have a F38 feeder on a tilt away stand. You need the feeder for the shaper. With the tilt away bracket, it will work fantastically on the jointer too. There is a horizontal extension tube for the feeder bracket that would put the feeder in front of the saw blade as well. The standard bracket will also work to power feed on the saw, but the feeder will be right at the blade. I also have the 240 fence for the shaper, which I highly recommend with the micro adjust feature.

Charles also recommended two stops for the crosscut fence, as do I.

You'll want two extensions. One to leave on the saw table, behind the blade, and the other to leave on the planner outfeed. I bought the cast iron, but aluminum would be fine.

My machine has all electronically adjusted speed control, which I love. I honestly don't know if they all have that or not, but I like to be able to speed up the saw for the dado head (another piece of tooling that you need), and slow it down for 315mm blades. FYI, do NOT run a 315mm blade and the mechanical scoring unit together. You will ruin your blades. The scoring unit is for 300mm or smaller blades. It is also great to be able to simply turn down the speed of a large shaper cutter, or the mortiser.

Powerdrive for the planner is also what I have. Not sure Digidrive was worth the extra at the time. I would buy the Digidrive now, simply to have a set of one button memorized stops. Powerdrive works very well though, and $2500ish less, IIRK.

Talk to your salesman about some deals on Felder tooling. They will probably give you a good discount at the time of purchase of your CF, and the Leitz tooling that they sell is good stuff. What you need really depends on what you are building.

BTW, if you care to see a pinup of my machine set up to do a goofy function, check out my "about me" page for some photos. Have fun with the decisions!

[Leigh Betsch]

Hi John. I own both of the MM machines you are looking at. I've been very happy with both machines. I don't know the differences between the ST-4 and the S315WS. I bought the ST-4 because it had all the options I wanted, rear tilt shaper, digital fence, 8.5 ft slider, scoring blade, power feeder on a swing away mount. A couple of things I like about the the ST-4, you might want to check the S315WS: the ST-4 scoring unit can be used while still using the 12" saw blade, some saws require you to mount a 10" blade when you use the scoring unit. The ST-4 also has a separate motor for the scoring unit. The scoring unit also tilts with the main blade. The ST-4 power feeder mounts on an arm that swings away to the side, some mounts tilt down, so you need to do some lifting to swing it up. The ST-4 uses a 5/8 dia saw blade bore, so you can still use your old 10" saw blades and dado head. Some saws have larger spindles or special saw blade mounts, so you need to modify or replace your old blades and dado head. The ST-4 does not have electronic speed control on the saw or shaper motors. My ST-4 is three phase, 6.4hp motors on both the shaper and saw, 1hp motor on the scoring blade. I run it off a 3 phase rotary converter, which I keep in another room because of the noise and switch it on and off with a remote starter. If you buy a single phase unit I believe the motors are 4.5 hp.

I lost interest with the Felder because I couldn't get it through the salesman's head that I didn't want a Hammer and for some reason he just wouldn't give me much info on the Felder line.
I was unable to see a Felder before I bought my MM, and I don't have much Felder knowledge but my impression is that the Felder is a great machine and has some advantages in the electronic speed control, electronic drives, and optional accessories but the cost of the options can add up quickly.

Having said all this if I were to do it again I would look a bit harder at a separate saw and shaper. I think I would use the shaper more if I could just leave it set up all the time. I bought the combo because I felt it was a better value that a separate saw and sliding table shaper.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Leigh, you bring up a couple good points that I forgot about. MM uses a regular saw arbor, I don't remember the size? I know the Felder has the two pins for braking (it stops the blade in 2 to 3 seconds after you hit the off button). This feature gives the MM more adaptability where the Felder requires a Felder or custom blade or dado. I have a couple Forrest blades for mine. MM does not have the braking though.

I also like the digital fence better on Leigh's saw, then I do the system on mine. Felder has a digital fence, but it's an option.

[charles argo]

the standard riving knife will adjust under the apex of a 12" blade for non through cuts. A dedicated splitter is not needed for this function.
Steve, I specifically asked that question to the rep and he said I'd need the standard splitter for submerged cuts. Oh well,at least by Felder standards the splitter wasn't too expensive. You are right about talking to your rep about tooling at the time of purchase. I was able to get the Felder dado set as an "incentive " at no charge. All in all I thought I got very substantial discounts in the outfitting of my machine. They got hit hard by last Fall's economic meltdown and were aggresively discounting this Spring to generate orders.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I specifically asked that question to the rep and he said I'd need the standard splitter for submerged cuts. Oh well,at least by Felder standards the splitter wasn't too expensive. You are right about talking to your rep about tooling at the time of purchase. I was able to get the Felder dado set as an "incentive " at no charge. All in all I thought I got very substantial discounts in the outfitting of my machine. They got hit hard by last Fall's economic meltdown and were aggresively discounting this Spring to generate orders.

Very agressively discounting! Right after I bought my machine, they started sending your choice of a bandsaw or dust collector with a CF. Of course, I bought mine a month too soon.

I only run the one knife, the one that accepts the shield. I think we're talking about the same thing... I use 300mm, 315mm, and 12" blades. All of these allow the riving knife to run about a mm below the apex of the blade. As an aside, that knife/shield system is pretty close to perfect IMHO. On my previous saws, blade guards always seemed to be in the way. I actualy enjoy using the Felder system.

https://shop.felder-gruppe.at/felder/ext/admin/upload/shop/1578_adetail_big.jpg

Just added a photo of the "Euro splitter" that I use.

[Rye Crane]

Steve/John,

My MiniMax St5 has a saw motor brake, stops in 2.5 seconds. Three speed drive, air conditioning and cruise control. Just like your Felder there.

Rye

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Rye, I could use some AC in my shop! Might have to switch....

[Charlie Plesums]

Steve/John,

My MiniMax St5 has a saw motor brake, stops in 2.5 seconds. Three speed drive, air conditioning and cruise control. Just like your Felder there.

Rye

Rye, I thought the ST5 used North American blades (with a single hole). How do you keep the brake action from loosening the blade? The arbor nuts always tighten as the motor pulls the blade (even left hand thread if necessary to make this true). When the brake is applied, the opposite would be true, that stopping the arbor would cause the blade to try to unscrew the arbor nut. The european blades have the extra holes so the blade can't turn the nut. The Sawstop grabs the teeth. Is there something else to stop the blade without loosening the nut?

[Rye Crane]

Charlie,

Haven't had a problem. The arbor is 1" no additional holes (ala Felder) for location of blade. I went into the manual for the ST5 and on page 158 chapter 7.2 & 7.3 says "Self Braking Motor (USA & Canada) It is necessary to periodically check and adjust the electromagnetic braking device as shown in picture 5.

then it talks about the gap between the frame of the electromagnet and the core is adjusted to keep the maximum blade dimension at the maximum speed stopping within 10 seconds.

I timed my 14" blade at 5000 rpm stopped at 2.589 seconds. I didn't repeat the test because it's entirely up to my reactions. Suffice it to say it stops around 3 seconds or less. The shaper spindle stops without tooling in 1.895 seconds. With a 7" chunk of steel whirring around it probably stops in about the same time as the saw blade.

I've changed blades on the saw a zillion times. I use 5 different blades and it's always tight. I do not over tighten it either. Just snug it up well.

I could fax you the description of the adjustments if you care.

Thanks,
Rye

[John Harden]

John, a 2500mm slider will clear the blade with 8ft sheet goods. I do it on mine all the time. No harm in a longer slider, if you have the extra room to have another foot of table residing in all the time.

That eccentric clamp is a monster. I really doubt that you will ever need two for anything that I can think of.

The only differences between your list and my CF 741 Pro is the 2500mm slider, and I use an 1 1/4" and a 40mm spindle, no router. I also did not order the parallel cutting device, but am planing on buying it. Like Charles mentioned, I have a F38 feeder on a tilt away stand. You need the feeder for the shaper. With the tilt away bracket, it will work fantastically on the jointer too. There is a horizontal extension tube for the feeder bracket that would put the feeder in front of the saw blade as well. The standard bracket will also work to power feed on the saw, but the feeder will be right at the blade. I also have the 240 fence for the shaper, which I highly recommend with the micro adjust feature.

Charles also recommended two stops for the crosscut fence, as do I.

You'll want two extensions. One to leave on the saw table, behind the blade, and the other to leave on the planner outfeed. I bought the cast iron, but aluminum would be fine.

My machine has all electronically adjusted speed control, which I love. I honestly don't know if they all have that or not, but I like to be able to speed up the saw for the dado head (another piece of tooling that you need), and slow it down for 315mm blades. FYI, do NOT run a 315mm blade and the mechanical scoring unit together. You will ruin your blades. The scoring unit is for 300mm or smaller blades. It is also great to be able to simply turn down the speed of a large shaper cutter, or the mortiser.

Powerdrive for the planner is also what I have. Not sure Digidrive was worth the extra at the time. I would buy the Digidrive now, simply to have a set of one button memorized stops. Powerdrive works very well though, and $2500ish less, IIRK.

Talk to your salesman about some deals on Felder tooling. They will probably give you a good discount at the time of purchase of your CF, and the Leitz tooling that they sell is good stuff. What you need really depends on what you are building.

BTW, if you care to see a pinup of my machine set up to do a goofy function, check out my "about me" page for some photos. Have fun with the decisions!

Thanks for the informative reply. I was able to spend a few hours checking out a KF-700SP and AD-741 w/power drive this weekend. Very nice units. The owner had opted for the power spindle and even saw blade height. If i go with Felder, I'm leaning towards power height on the shaper and planer, but will go with the hand crank for the saw blade and use the money for the parallel rip fence.

My Felder rep tolkd me the 1500mm outrigger for the lider comes with a stop as does the 43", short cross cut fence, giving me two. Is this correct?

I really liked the saw blade brake and the relatively light weight of the 244 shaper fence. Its light enough that i can see myself putting it on and off, versus just letting it gather dust on a shelf.

I was surprised at how heavy the outrigger table was. 80 pounds or so according to my Felder rep. The owner had bought the cart for install of it, though he never seems to take it off. Typically, I don't think I'd have it on unless I wanted to cut sheet goods or extra wide boards, but with how heavy it is, I may need to re-think that.

Perhaps the biggest surprise was the sheer size of the unit and throw of the 2800mm slider. If i go that rouet, I'm giong to have to turn it 90 degrees to my garage door so it slides across the width of my 3 car garage.

Thanks for the advice on asking about shaper cutters as I currently do't own any.

Any other options I should look at now?

Regards,

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

John, I actually don't know about the stops. I speced two, and two showed up, so I never bothered to see what fence came with what stops. I do like to have two stops on my fence, just for things like rails and stiles. Nice to cut both with one setup.

Did you get a chance to see a Minimax machine? Curious what your impressions where.

It's pretty shocking to see one of these in full spread! I have mine sitting at a 45 degree angle to the doors in my two car garage, and it just barely fits with a sheet loaded up. Took a few days to tune the layout of the shop to get everything to clear.

I don't think I'll get too many agruments when I say that MiniMax and Felder are the top of the heap for full combo machines. Laguna and Rojek make them also.

[John Harden]

I recently looked at a CU-410 combo that a guy bought new in 2004. I understand they've changed a bit since then, but to me, it wasn't as beefy or refined as the Felder. From talking to both my Felder and MM rep, that's not really a fair comparison as they both say the Felder is closer to the CU-410 Elite S (full combo) or ST-5 Elite S (saw/shaper combo).

I've yet to see an Elite S close up, but from my research there are four things about the Felder that I really like. These are the power drive on the shaper/planer, saw blade brake (despite having to buy new or modify my blades), 15,000 rpm router spindle, and the fence design on the jointer. If I go Felder I'll spec the power drive and LED readout on the planer and shaper spindle for speed and ease of change over. If I can quickly convert the saw top to shaping, I'm more likely to use the shaper. MM offers these on their Elite S machines, but only in 3 phase. I'd need a three phase converter from my home shop, and I'd rather not go that route. The one MM recommends costs $3000. Felder offers full electronics on their single phase machines.

The jointer fence of the Felder is designed so you can set the saw up flush against the wall, saving me some space. The MM is similiar to my Delta 8" jointer and has a steel bar that sticks 12-18" out behind the machine. This limits where I can place it in my shop.

Having said that, I saw that five year old MM jointer/planer in action the other day. Guy hasn't lubricated or adjusted it in five years of hard use and it planed .01" off a knotty white oak plank and it came out smooth as a babies bottom with no noticeable marks from the infeed roller. He did admit to having just changed the blades, but still very impressive.

I doubt I'll use the shaper all that often, but the Felder I recently saw had the full electronics suite and it was amazingly quick in raising and lowering the spindle. I can't see paying for electronic saw blade hieght adjustment. I've turned a dial all these years, and never complained.

I'm still mulling it over and need to review the latest quotes from both MM and Felder before I decide. MM is still a bit less money, even if i go with the Elite S or ST-5 partly because they have a couple units in stock that they're trying to move.

Thanks again for all the helpful feedback. It has helped quite a lot!!!!

Regards,

John

[Charlie Plesums]

Charlie,

Haven't had a problem. The arbor is 1" no additional holes (ala Felder) for location of blade. I went into the manual for the ST5 and on page 158 chapter 7.2 & 7.3 says "Self Braking Motor (USA & Canada) It is necessary to periodically check and adjust the electromagnetic braking device as shown in picture 5.

then it talks about the gap between the frame of the electromagnet and the core is adjusted to keep the maximum blade dimension at the maximum speed stopping within 10 seconds.

I timed my 14" blade at 5000 rpm stopped at 2.589 seconds. I didn't repeat the test because it's entirely up to my reactions. Suffice it to say it stops around 3 seconds or less. The shaper spindle stops without tooling in 1.895 seconds. With a 7" chunk of steel whirring around it probably stops in about the same time as the saw blade.

I've changed blades on the saw a zillion times. I use 5 different blades and it's always tight. I do not over tighten it either. Just snug it up well.

I could fax you the description of the adjustments if you care.

Thanks,
Rye

I didn't find the manual on-line, but it sounds like it uses a magnet near the blade to stop it, rather than reversing the motor to do the braking. Since we aren't likely to use plastic blades, that is a great idea (wow) - and would not put an "unscrew" load on the arbor nut... in fact, would tend to tighten the nut just like cutting does. Is that consistent with what you see?

I believe the USA safety regulations are that the blade must stop in 10 seconds, which is probably why the specific mention of that time. On my machine with no brake, there are games that can be played to meet the stopping time, but when you get to the 14 inch and larger blades, this may be an issue without some brake.

The shaper has to be tight enough to spin in reverse, so the braking there could easily be through the drive motor.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have a Hammer slider and JP
Love 'em both.
Don't know how I drew breath before.

[Victor Philippi]

I’m not trying to steal the thread or anything, but I’ve been debating a lot on purchasing a Felder CF531 or CF741. I’ve been playing around with the configuring tools for both machines on the Felder website and have come to the conclusion that a fully spec’d CF741 with 81” slider and 1300mm outrigger and a CF531 with the same sliding table and outrigger is about $9,000 difference in price. The main differences between the machines being:

-16” jointer / planer on CF741 versus 12” on CF531
-Powerdrive on Saw, Shaper, and J / P on CF741
-Interchangeable shaper spindles on the CF741
-remote start on the sliding table on CF741

I believe that there are some other subtle differences between the machines (i.e. differences in trunions, footprint size, etc) but the above are just the major items.

1) The main question I have is how often do you guys who have these machines really use the above functions?
2) Is the powerdrive option more of a convenience or does it really add to the accuracy of the functions (especially on the saw and shaper)
3) Does anyone really use anything other than a shaper spindle on their CF741? Or do you guys find that you swap between the router spindle and shaper spindle with any amount of frequency?
4) How much of a convenience is the remote start option? I would imagine that it would be most helpful when you are processing sheet materials, but what about your normal crosscutting of hardwood pieces?

Again, I’m not trying to hijack the thread or anything. Thanks for any feedback I may get!

[Charlie Plesums]

Speaking as a happy MiniMax owner who considered those Felder machines, ...

I have the 16 inch jointer/planer, and if anything wish I had 20 inches. I do most of my glue-ups before jointing and planing (ohhhh so nice), and with 16 inches can't do raised panels on larger doors (24 inch doors with 20 inch panels are common, but larger than 24 inches you would likely use two smaller doors). A 16 inch unit can handle 20 inch doors. Doing a table or desk, 16 inches often requires three sections but a 20 inch would often handle only two sections for the top. 12 inches is nice, but 16 inches is FAR better.

My friends with Felders either have the power drive or wish they did. I have digital readout without power - no problem. Someone suggested a way to hook a portable drill to the crank... I started to do the setup, and realized it was no big deal to just spin the crank. I had a visitor who explained how the manual crank made the jointer/planer change over very time consuming... while he was telling me how bad it was, I changed from one to the other and back again. It is like an ice maker in your refrigerator... once you have it, you can't live without it, but until you get it, the few minutes it takes per week isn't worth the many hundreds of dollars difference in the price of the refrigerator.

I have both 3/4 inch spindle (for the cheap rarely used shaper cutters) and 1 1/4 inch spindle (for the pro grade shaper cutters), and on my machine the router collet is in the end of the larger spindle. I do not have a router table any more (it was in the wing of my old table saw, and no room for a new one). I run most of my router bits at the 10,000 rpm available in my combo shaper or my separate shaper.

Remote start is another thing I thought I couldn't live without. The parts to add one cost less than $100, and the changes are simple. I was sure I would do it immediately. Now, 4 1/2 years later, I am waiting to be inconvenienced enough to bother installing it.

I wouldn't touch an 81 inch slider. Mine is 8 1/2 feet, convenient for sheet goods, but just barely long enough for ripping hardwood. With a scrap of plywood or MDF, I also do most of my ripping on the slider, but my rip fence works fine, too.

A four foot outrigger is pretty short. Sure it is immeasurably better than the 6 inch miter gauge most table saws offer, but I sure appreciate my 6+ foot fence, plus telescoping extensions. If you are short of room, like I am, my outrigger comes off in about one minute, and can be put back on, fully calibrated, in about the same time. Mine stores easily on the end, and can easily be handled by one person alone.

I have never known anyone who regretted a machine upgrade. I have known lots of people who wished they had gotten better.

Hope this helps.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I’m not trying to steal the thread or anything, but I’ve been debating a lot on purchasing a Felder CF531 or CF741. I’ve been playing around with the configuring tools for both machines on the Felder website and have come to the conclusion that a fully spec’d CF741 with 81” slider and 1300mm outrigger and a CF531 with the same sliding table and outrigger is about $9,000 difference in price. The main differences between the machines being:

-16” jointer / planer on CF741 versus 12” on CF531
-Powerdrive on Saw, Shaper, and J / P on CF741
-Interchangeable shaper spindles on the CF741
-remote start on the sliding table on CF741

I believe that there are some other subtle differences between the machines (i.e. differences in trunions, footprint size, etc) but the above are just the major items.

1)The main question I have is how often do you guys who have these machines really use the above functions?
2)Is the powerdrive option more of a convenience or does it really add to the accuracy of the functions (especially on the saw and shaper)
3)Does anyone really use anything other than a shaper spindle on their CF741? Or do you guys find that you swap between the router spindle and shaper spindle with any amount of frequency?
4)How much of a convenience is the remote start option? I would imagine that it would be most helpful when you are processing sheet materials, but what about your normal crosscutting of hardwood pieces?

Again, I’m not trying to hijack the thread or anything. Thanks for any feedback I may get!

Victor, Charlie answered you well, but I'll throw in my opinion as well. For the functions question, no way would I go back to anything less then 16" without a pretty good fight. I like the way Charlie described the benefits. The powerdrive; my machine has it on the j/p, not the saw/shaper. If I was to reorder, I would get it on the shaper, and maybe the saw. It really works well, and I like to be able to hold the switch to adjust with one hand while the other is doing something else, like flipping a dust hood. Silly maybe, but I like it a lot, and you won't regret it. The interchangeble spindles are a huge benefit for my shop. They are quick to change, and enable you to leave something set up on one spindle, and go back quickly, or to buy a variety of tooling. I don't use the router spindle. I thought I would, but found that with a 40mm and an 1 1/4" spindle, I don't have any desire to rout anymore. Shapers just work better.

As for the remote start switch, my machine was ordered with it, and showed up with part of it installed. This was because I was impatient, and the Felder crew in Sacramento put my machine together by taking a longer table off of a Format machine to go onto my CF741, so that I got it in a week rather then months. They sent me the parts when they came in to put the switch to work, but my real job interefered, and as of yet I don't have it completely installed. Because of all that, I used my machine until now with no remote switch, and I would now say that the remote switch ought to be mandentory on a CF741. Charlies MM has the switch in a different spot maybe, but on my machine, when I'm processing sheet goods, it sucks to have to crawl under the table to turn the saw on. Get the remote switch!

Back to the shaper. This seems to be the least used function on several posters combo machines, but I have to admit that I use it a lot. What a slick tool to add to the arsenal. I would like to add that the longer spindle options stick up above the table even when fully retracted. Unless you really need that huge space under the nut on your shaper spindle, stick to the standard length. The standard still has way more length than anything I'll ever run.

Also, the differences in the trunion and spindle assembly between the 500 and 700 are pretty significant, IIRK.

Good luck!

[John Harden]

Victor, I also looked at the 500 Series from Felder and favor the 700 Series for the extra capacities and features. I currently own a 16" planer that I'll sell and can't see stepping down in size. I also want the 9 foot slider on the 700 series so I can rip 8' boards and still have room for clamps, etc.

I honestly think I could get by with a 12" planer just fine, particularfly since I have a drum sander. You may feel the same.

Both MM and Felder owners have come up with a solution for a remote start you can mount on the end of the slider that I'm sure would work for the 5 series.

Personally, I never even considered power drive until I visited the shops of people who have it. I don't feel the need for power saw height adjustment and could live without it on the shaper, but very much want it on the planer. I squatted in the shop of a guy without it and cranked, cranked, cranked, all the while thinking about the other shop I visited where I just pushed a button. It really doesn't cost that much once you start negotiating with them. Everyone is looking to move machines in this economy, so you can work some pretty good deals. Don't pay any attention to the list prices you see out there.

I don't see that the power drive would add much to accuracy as the digital mechanical readouts I saw seemed plenty accurate. I believe the power drive allows for .001" adjustments while the mechanical is calibrated for .01", but you can split that in half for .005 if you are clever. Not much of a real world difference in my opinion.

I know that the reset and calibration technique for the Felder power drive is very simple and extremely accurate, but imagine that there is a similiar method for the mechanical system. I don't think that power saw blade height adjustment would add any accuracy at all. It's just convenience.

Power spindle height adjustment on the shaper would allow you to return to exactly the same setting you previously used, but having said that, I'm sure you'll run a test piece just to compare. I know I would.

If I go Felder I intend to get the router spindle for those "in-between" bits that I seem to have so many of. I'm referring to the big molding and other bits that really push the upper limit of even a big PC router slung under a table. I've heard that quite a few people have dumped their router table in favor of the shaper (w/15,000 rpm spindle), but I don't see me doing that at least for awhile. I really like my router table and the convenince of having it always at the ready.

If you have the room for a 8.5 or larger slider it might be wise to consider one. I remember reading a comment someone made about noone ever wishing their slider were shorter, but plenty wishing it were longer. I toyed with the idea of a shorter one, but settled on the 2800mm model.

Hope I haven't confused you and remember my opinions are based only on my recent research, discussions, and visits to shops of owners of the equipment I'm interested in. The 1-3 hours I spent with each of them is not really all that much.

Regards,

John

[John Harden]

Hello John,
I ordered my machine 5hp/1ph so I didn't have to fuss with a converter.
I went with the 2800mm slider for the same reason you stated. I also ordered the 1500mm outrigger and the remote start option.
I got the 43" fence as well, along with the extension table for the slider to use in conjunction with the short fence. This is the extension with the "P" coupling.
I added the short rip fence. When you use the regular rip fence as a bump stop with the slider, you have to pull it back even with the blade. This leaves part of the fence hanging way out in front of your machine. Short rip fence solves this problem nicely.
A standard splitter for doing non-through cuts (12.5.122). The stock riving knife sits above the blade.
miter indexing.
Eccentric clamp - would like an air driven clamp (Big Squeeze) at some point.
tilt angle dials in shaper and saw handwheels.
mechanical scoring.
2 cast iron extensions. The jointer tables are shorter on the combo than the regular AD741, so I wanted one front and back if needed.
An extra crosscut stop. You will use this more than you might think.
Power feeder with tilt away bracket. I wouldn't consider doing many shaper operations without one.
Heavy duty curve shaping device -aka- Aigner BowmouldMaster. If you do curved work on the shaper, this is the nicest, safest accessory for it. Not cheap though. With curved moulding stops and guide bearing it's $1000. It also works as a tenoning hood. Refer to David Best's Survival Guide.
Another nice Aigner product - the counter profile workpiece holder(01.0.019). Allows you to hold narrow pieces when working on the shaper - doing coping cuts for instance.
I did not get the parallel cutting device. My rep told me feedback to him was that it was fussy and slow to set up. Most guys just rip narrow stock conventionally with the fence, using the slider as an assist. So I passed on that one.
I also passed on the router spindle. I just don't think that big shaper fence is what I want to do small router details with. I'm keeping my Jess-Em router table for all router operations and using the shaper only as a shaper.
I ordered the power drive option for the planer table. Having seen this work in person, I wouldn't go without it. I also added the comfort guard so I wouldn't run into it walking around the machine.
I am also getting the FD250 mortiser as a stand alone machine. I do entry doors as well as furniture and felt justified going with a dedicated machine.

As for cutters, I think I'm going to try a Byrd helical head for template work. You can get them in a variety of sizes, you just need a bearing to match. Felder sells a spiral cutter as well, so does Amana. Felder's stuff is all 30mm, so decide if you're going to use them as a tooling source. You might want to get a 30mm spindle. I ordered the 1-1/4". Best of luck with your decision.

Charles

Charles, thanks for the great list. I had forgotten about the short extension table with P coupling to go with the short crosscut extension fence, so I added that to the spec sheet.

Did you ge the extension for the short crosscut fence? I'm toying with the idea as I predict I'll use this more often than the large outrigger table.

I also added the tilting feeder bracket for the power feeder. Any thoughts on which feeder?

You have me leaning towards a second cast iron extension. I intend to keep one on the outfeed of the saw at all times and have heard that the planer outfeed really needs one too. The jointer bed is 78", so I'm probably fine there.

My rep confirmed that I get one crosscut stop with both the outrigger and short crosscut fence, so that'll gice me two.

Did your 1500mm outrigger fence come with an extension out to 120" or so or is that another addition?

I intend to mostly run a 10" Forrest WWII blade made for the Felder. I don't often need the depth of cut from a 12" and the 10 will be much quieter. Does the standard splitter work well for this or do I need an additional one?

Thanks again for the helpful response.

Regards,

John

[Wes Grass]

You may want an extension on the jointer as well. At least get the attachment rail for it so you're prepared.

[Rye Crane]

John,

It sounds as if you are just about ready to put pen to paper. Good, welcome to the multifunctioning folks on the Creek. Just a note, consider the power lift on the shaper for this reason. With my setup there is a digital readout next to the lift switch, it also has a absolute zero reset so you can set up your tooling, run a test and then zero out the readout and either raise by .01" or lower by .007" then you have a positive reference to sneak up on the perfect cut.

It's really easy to justify these cool upgrades. I think I have most memorized now, if you want I'll give you a easy list to check off as you think of them.

Remember someones saying "buy it right, cry once. buy it twice, cry a bunch"

Have a great time with that cool new machine.

Rye Crane

[John Harden]

Rye,

Yeah, I'm getting close to making a purchase. One of the advantages of the Felder line is the power height adjustment on the shaper and planer., so I'd want that with the corresponding digital readout. I can't see ever needing or even wanting it on the saw blade, so I'm leaning away from that. I'd also want the remote switch for the slider.

Anything else you'd recommend that I'd want "built in" to the machine? I mean, versus stuff I could just add later.

Regards,

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Rye,

Yeah, I'm getting close to making a purchase. One of the advantages of the Felder line is the power height adjustment on the shaper and planer., so I'd want that with the corresponding digital readout. I can't see ever needing or even wanting it on the saw blade, so I'm leaning away from that. I'd also want the remote switch for the slider.

Anything else you'd recommend that I'd want "built in" to the machine? I mean, versus stuff I could just add later.

Regards,

John

John, sounds like you are getting it narrowed down. One option that I have, #019A (electronic variable speed for all motors, 5hp motors), is one that I highly recommend. I was not sure if this was standard or not, so I just checked, and it's an option. This allows you to swap spindles, and never goof with a belt position for speed changes on the shaper. Just set it to the speed, no matter if it is a router spindle at 15,000, or a large shaper at 5,000 rpm. There is only one position for the belt on the shaper with this option. It also works well for the planner/jointer, especially if you want to try an add on mortiser later. For the saw, it allows you to run a 8" dado faster than the 315mm blades, with a simple twist of a dial.

You'll also want #118, electric shaper spindle height. Maybe consider Tersa? Option #041.

[Wes Grass]

Consider where the elevation handwheel is, and whether it's easy to get to when you've got a sheet of plywood on the outrigger. Maybe easier to walk around the end of the table to crank it than reach underneath to push a button.

Don't know as I haven't looked at the long sliders. But I run into this on occasion with the short one. Usually can reach over the table and grab the handle, but sometimes have to walk around the end. And I think if I were cutting a full sheet in half I'd be on my knees underneath it.

Yeah, I know, should have set the height before I got the sheet up there. But that's just the way things go sometimes. Reality is, I break the stuff up with a Festool saw and rail to avoid wrestling with it. But I have had a 3x4 piece on there and realized the blade wasn't high enough for the overhead guard to clear after cutting 10" or so.

[John Harden]

John, sounds like you are getting it narrowed down. One option that I have, #019A (electronic variable speed for all motors, 5hp motors), is one that I highly recommend. I was not sure if this was standard or not, so I just checked, and it's an option. This allows you to swap spindles, and never goof with a belt position for speed changes on the shaper. Just set it to the speed, no matter if it is a router spindle at 15,000, or a large shaper at 5,000 rpm. There is only one position for the belt on the shaper with this option. It also works well for the planner/jointer, especially if you want to try an add on mortiser later. For the saw, it allows you to run a 8" dado faster than the 315mm blades, with a simple twist of a dial.

You'll also want #118, electric shaper spindle height. Maybe consider Tersa? Option #041.

Steve, that would be a nice to have option, but at $2000, I think I'll skip it. For no more often than I'll use the shaper, I think I can live with the belt changes. From the video and my visit to the shop of an owner, they look to take all of about 10 seconds to accomplish. Is your experience different?

Regards,

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, that would be a nice to have option, but at $2000, I think I'll skip it. For no more often than I'll use the shaper, I think I can live with the belt changes. From the video and my visit to the shop of an owner, they look to take all of about 10 seconds to accomplish. Is your experience different?

Regards,

John


Yep, they probably take 10 seconds or so, I'd imagine. I've got the variable speed though, so I just mess with the belt for spindle changes. Not a big deal to change belt positions, but...

[John Harden]

I toyed with the idea of a Tersa cutterhead, but the standard is the quick change, Felder 4 knife unit. The Tersa they offer is only the three knife option.

From the video and their spec sheet, it looks like Felder has adopted the positive attributes of the Tersa with their quick knife change out and reversable blades.

Would you agree? Is there some benefit to going with the Tersa over the Felder?

Not disagreeing with you, just attempting to make sure I fully understand your point.

Regards,

John

[John Harden]

Consider where the elevation handwheel is, and whether it's easy to get to when you've got a sheet of plywood on the outrigger. Maybe easier to walk around the end of the table to crank it than reach underneath to push a button.

Don't know as I haven't looked at the long sliders. But I run into this on occasion with the short one. Usually can reach over the table and grab the handle, but sometimes have to walk around the end. And I think if I were cutting a full sheet in half I'd be on my knees underneath it.

Yeah, I know, should have set the height before I got the sheet up there. But that's just the way things go sometimes. Reality is, I break the stuff up with a Festool saw and rail to avoid wrestling with it. But I have had a 3x4 piece on there and realized the blade wasn't high enough for the overhead guard to clear after cutting 10" or so.

That's an excellent point. Where did they locate the saw blade elevation on the Felder, KF-700S Pro? Is it in the "front" of the saw, like an American cabinet saw, or is it on the side? From the video and my visit to the shop of an owner, I know that the electronic saw blade height is on the side of the saw, which would place it underneath the slider. Honestly though, I didn't pay much attention to the location of the hand crank in the video. The owner of the saw here locally had gotten every option they offer, so that's not a good reference point.

Regards,

John

[John Harden]

Very agressively discounting! Right after I bought my machine, they started sending your choice of a bandsaw or dust collector with a CF. Of course, I bought mine a month too soon.

I only run the one knife, the one that accepts the shield. I think we're talking about the same thing... I use 300mm, 315mm, and 12" blades. All of these allow the riving knife to run about a mm below the apex of the blade. As an aside, that knife/shield system is pretty close to perfect IMHO. On my previous saws, blade guards always seemed to be in the way. I actualy enjoy using the Felder system.

https://shop.felder-gruppe.at/felder/ext/admin/upload/shop/1578_adetail_big.jpg

Just added a photo of the "Euro splitter" that I use.

Steve, my intent is to run a 10" Forrest WWII (bored for the Felder) most of the time as a general purpose blade. Do you happen to know if the stock splitter work well with this, or should I add another one? Can it be lowered enough so that it is below the apex of the blade?

Regards,

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

John, I don't have a 10" blade bored for the Felder, so I can't be positive, but with the 315mm blade in it now, there is enough room in the slot to lower the splitter so that it would work on a 10" blade. The splitter is marked for use with a 250mm (9.8") blade too, so I'm 99% sure that you'll be just fine with the one splitter. You will be close to the limit on the adjustment, and as the arc of the splitter if made to fit the max blade diameter, you will get a bit more gap between the back of the blade and the splitter. Maybe 4mm or so.

I brought up the Tersa, variable speed and electronic shaper height because you asked about options that need to be ordered with a new machine, rather then add ons. I have the Felder knife system, and am perfectly happy with it. Tersa looks slick, but a set of knives last me a long time, so I don't think it would have been worth the extra money to me.

[Wes Grass]

AFAIK, the elevation crank is in front on all of them. Can't see it on the 'S' model pictures, but the standard CF shows where it is. Probably a wash as to which is better, being dependent on what you've got set up on the thing. But at least good to think about it and visualize access to the controls. Lot of money, I know.

As for variable speed on the shaper. That'd be nice, but I don't like that they went with a single belt position. Running the speed down on an AC motor like that is hard on them (more current, more heat), and you definitely lose power in the process. This is why you see absurd HP motors on CNC lathes, like 20 HP on a machine with a 6" chuck. It's so you can slow them down with an inverter and still get enough torque to make a cut in a 4" piece of steel.

May be able to put the 4 step pulley on there and have the best of both worlds.

I 'think' you'll be OK with the stock splitter, as I think the older model saws had to use a 250mm blade when they had a scoring blade in place. (The website says 250-315) The new ones are 300 w/scoring, and nominally 315 without. There's also a special splitter for a 350mm blade, but it doesn't accomodate the overhead guard. Don't know if you can get it below a 10" blade, but one of the riving knives (no guard attachment) should work. If not, a few minutes on a belt sander should fix it.

[John Harden]

I just pulled the trigger and placed my order for what I hope will be the last saw/shaper/jointer/planer that I'll ever own.

Thanks to all of you here who offered advice! I appreciate it and you helped guide me in my selection of which machines to look at and the features/options.

After mulling it over and looking at both MM and Felder's offerings, I elected to go with Felder for reasons I posted in an earlier message.

I wound up getting a saw/shaper combo and a seperate jointer/planer combo.

Details are below.

KF-700S Pro – Saw/Shaper

4 HP motors
Remote start switch on slider
Digital indicator for saw tilting
Standard scoring unit
Micro Adjustment for saw fence
Sliding table 2800 mm anodized
Digital indicator for spindle molder tilting
Electrical height adjustment spindle unit
Digital display for height adjustment
240 spindle molder fence w/micro adjust
Euro guard 2 for spindle molder fence
Euro curved shaper guard w/ ring guard
Outrigger table 1500 series
Crosscut fence 43 inches
Extension table for X-Roll slider
Two cast iron extension tables (one for saw, one for planer)
Precision miter guide INDEX for Outrigger
Rolling carriage KF 700/06 S PRO
F38 Power Feeder w/ advance tilting head
Power feed tilting device
300 mm TCG panel blade
2 piece scoring blade
300 mm combo blade
Eccentric hold down clamp
15000 rpm router spindle
Additional handle ( butt bar)
Parallel cutting device
Assorted dust collection fittings for 120/100/80 mm connections
Delivery and install into my garage shop

AD-741 – 16" Jointer/Planer

Power Drive height adjustment w/LED
Euro comfort guard
Mobility kit

Now I just need that big lift device for the mondo heavy power feeder, some shaper heads, etc.....

That was a lot to bite off in this economy, but I'm sure I'll be happy with my new toys.

Is it November yet?!?!?!?! :)

Thanks again for all the helpful advice, particularly on the options that I should consider.

Regards,

John

[Rob Russell]

John,

Do yourself a favor and join the Felder Owner's Group on Yahoo Groups. There are very knowledgable folks there and some of them have designed some really great accessories for the Felder machinery.

As noted before, get a narrow fork pallet jack for moving the machinery around.

If you want to see what it's like to do some rigging for these big machines, take a look at these SMC threads.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=11989&page=3
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=206601&postcount=2

Rob

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Nice pick John! These next 4 1/2 months may be some of the slowest...

Curious how you like the curved Euro shaper guard, when you get to use it, post your opinions on it please?

[Jim Becker]

I'm a very satisfied MiniMax owner...band saw, J/P combo and sliding table saw. (that I added a "shaper" function to) I have the highest respect for Felder, but the one thing I really found attractive about MM is that they were easy to buy and full featured without having to go through a whole laundry list of options to construct what I wanted to buy. They include most of everything you need standard in "the" unit that is available for sale. Neither way is "better", mind you...I just happened to like the MM approach better.

[Narayan Nayar]

This difference exists also with cars. Americans tend to like buying stuff off a lot, or buying "option packages" which lump a bunch of options into (what's perceived to be) a special price.

In Germany, from what I can tell the overwhelming majority of car sales are done a la carte. So you can get power mirrors without having to get the power seats. Imagine that.

I much prefer the German approach, but to each their own.

[John Harden]

John,

Do yourself a favor and join the Felder Owner's Group on Yahoo Groups. There are very knowledgable folks there and some of them have designed some really great accessories for the Felder machinery.

As noted before, get a narrow fork pallet jack for moving the machinery around.

If you want to see what it's like to do some rigging for these big machines, take a look at these SMC threads.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=11989&page=3
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=206601&postcount=2

Rob

Rob, thanks for the advice. I'm a member of both Felder and Mini-Max forums. I've had an MM-20 bandsaw for about 3 years or so, so I'm over there a fair bit.

I'm lucky in that Felder has a guy out near me that has delivered a lot of their equipment to customers in SoCal. He has a trucking company and tends to use a big rig with flatbed trailer with a forklift. I'm having them bring it to my house and they even uncrate it, install the mobility kits and roll it into my garage for me.

Regards,

John

[charles argo]

Charles, thanks for the great list. I had forgotten about the short extension table with P coupling to go with the short crosscut extension fence, so I added that to the spec sheet.

Did you ge the extension for the short crosscut fence? I'm toying with the idea as I predict I'll use this more often than the large outrigger table.

I also added the tilting feeder bracket for the power feeder. Any thoughts on which feeder?

You have me leaning towards a second cast iron extension. I intend to keep one on the outfeed of the saw at all times and have heard that the planer outfeed really needs one too. The jointer bed is 78", so I'm probably fine there.

My rep confirmed that I get one crosscut stop with both the outrigger and short crosscut fence, so that'll gice me two.

Did your 1500mm outrigger fence come with an extension out to 120" or so or is that another addition?

I intend to mostly run a 10" Forrest WWII blade made for the Felder. I don't often need the depth of cut from a 12" and the 10 will be much quieter. Does the standard splitter work well for this or do I need an additional one?

Thanks again for the helpful response.

Regards,

John
John,

I didn't get the extension for the short fence, but you make a good point about using the smaller table more than the big outrigger.

I got the F-38 feeder just because I think it fits the machine (mine is a full combo) better than a 4 wheel feeder does.

The longer extension on the crosscut fence (from 102" to 126") is an option, but I'll bet you can get it included in the negotiation.

The Euro splitter works with blades down to 250mm.

Regards,

Charles

[John Harden]

I'm a very satisfied MiniMax owner...band saw, J/P combo and sliding table saw. (that I added a "shaper" function to) I have the highest respect for Felder, but the one thing I really found attractive about MM is that they were easy to buy and full featured without having to go through a whole laundry list of options to construct what I wanted to buy. They include most of everything you need standard in "the" unit that is available for sale. Neither way is "better", mind you...I just happened to like the MM approach better.

I'll admit at first I preferred MM's approach. After doing all my research and some critical thinking on what features I want and need (which are two very different things...:)), I much prefer being able to make choices. It is very nice to be able to choose from 5 different sizes of slider, three sizes of outrigger, three height adjustment options, how many accessory tables I want and of what type and length, length of rip fence (they have three to choose from), crosscut fence(s), etc.

In my opinion, one big downside to MM's approach is because they have 'standard" equipment options, you have to take what they give you. For many people, I think this would be fine, but what if my shop can't accommodate an 8.5' slider and I don't want one of their lesser quality machines with a shorter slider?

What I really don't get though, is why don't they offer more options or accessories? They provide a lot that is standard, but that's just about where it ends. They have no accessory catalogue to speak of, so if you want tooling, or accessories like parallel cutting, shaper guards for curved work, segmented shaper fences, spindles or 100+ other things, you have to either build your own, buy from Aigner and modify it to fit your MM, or do without. Felder sells 9 different shaper spindles for the 700 series! I opted for the 1 1/4" and high speed router ones, but some other folks might want a 30 or 50mm one, or a tall one that accepts 6" shaper heads. Felders accessory catalogue is 128 pages long!

I also like how Felder has taken the time to adapt their machines to readily accept quite a lot of the Aigner line. You can then either buy the Felder branded version or the Aigner. In either case, it'll fit. For example, the spendy ($600+) heavy duty, cast shaper head for curved work Felder offers is the Aigner one. I went with the smaller one, but Felder is drilling my table to accept the heavy duty one in case I want it in the future.

Felder tends to cost more, in part because each machine is custom made to order, but with the economy and their aggressive discounting, I paid significantly less than I would have paid for an Elite S and I got features that to me, were important and not offered by MM.

Would the MM have worked well for me? You bet!! I love my MM-20 and their customer service. When pushed, both my Felder and MM rep's would admit that the differences in the base machine are marginal and really don't matter much in the real world, so it all comes down to price and preference. MM usually wins with their lower price point, but based on the deal Felder offered I wonder if things may be changing there!!!

Regards,

John

[Rye Crane]

John,

Whew, the decision was finally made. What a relief for you. I remember when I finally got it together and set the money in motion. I made a plot map of my garage and now when my 2600mm slider is fully retracted to change a blade I have 1/64" clearance to my bench. When I want to fully extend the slider when cutting I have to open my garage door. Only had rain one day so not a big deal at all. Remember we are living in Ca., it never rains, ever.

On the left or port side I have a full 1/2" clearance between my crosscut fence and the J/P so there is a little dance to get around and outside.

It will all come together for you and I read you have a neighbor that will get it inside the garage for you. You are all set.

By Christmas you will be making lots of sawdust and noise. Go for it.
You have one of the very best woodworking tool sets available and I know you will really enjoy it.

I will toast your new tool tonite for sure.

Rye Crane

I know you are going to use your WWII blade to begin with. Check out the Felder blades I think you will find a substantial difference. I use FS Tool for mine and I just cut a red oak beam to get ready to make some table legs the cut quality is smoother than I could get with a hand plane.

[John Harden]

John,

Whew, the decision was finally made. What a relief for you. I remember when I finally got it together and set the money in motion. I made a plot map of my garage and now when my 2600mm slider is fully retracted to change a blade I have 1/64" clearance to my bench. When I want to fully extend the slider when cutting I have to open my garage door. Only had rain one day so not a big deal at all. Remember we are living in Ca., it never rains, ever.

On the left or port side I have a full 1/2" clearance between my crosscut fence and the J/P so there is a little dance to get around and outside.

It will all come together for you and I read you have a neighbor that will get it inside the garage for you. You are all set.

By Christmas you will be making lots of sawdust and noise. Go for it.
You have one of the very best woodworking tool sets available and I know you will really enjoy it.

I will toast your new tool tonite for sure.

Rye Crane

I know you are going to use your WWII blade to begin with. Check out the Felder blades I think you will find a substantial difference. I use FS Tool for mine and I just cut a red oak beam to get ready to make some table legs the cut quality is smoother than I could get with a hand plane.

Rye,

My garage is pretty big, but there's a sceond floor above it and I have two columns to contend with. The main, large area is basically 19.5 X 19.5 square and free of obstructions. There is plenty of room left over side to side, but once again, the columns must be dealt with.

I have three choices. Side to side, front to back, or at an angle. To complicate things, I park my motorcycle inside every night. Car and truck of course live outside as they should.. :)

My thinking is I'll get it here, install the slider and mobility kit, then move it around for a day or two to hone in where I want it, then plant it there semi-permanently. Jointer/Planer is easy as I have two spots to choose from.

We'll see. I'm really looking forward to the 9 foot slider and 16" jointer/planer, not to mention the shaper!!!!

Thanks again for the good advice.

Regards,

John

[Charlie Plesums]

Congratulations on your decision. It is hard to pull the trigger on a purchase this big. Your choice was different than mine, but both options are outstanding machines.

You mentioned wanting to continue to use your 10 inch Forrest WWII blades. Forrest has larger WWII blades - so before investing in converting your existing blades, I would consider selling them (Craigs list or on a forum such as this), and buying the larger blade that your machine can take (My favorite is a 12 inch 40 tooth WWII with #6 grind).

The question should not be "can it be used" but rather, "is this the best choice" for this high performance machine. On these larger saws, like your are getting, the blade speeds are optimized for the larger blades (think tip speed). The angle of the teeth through the wood is better with the larger blades. And the larger arbors and heavier arbor bearings mean the depth of cut is less for a given blade size, so a 10 inch blade will likely do less depth of cut on the new saw than it did on your previous saw.

[John Harden]

Charlie, thanks for the good advice. I hadn't thought about blade tip speed. The main reason I was going to use a 10" blade is noise. The 12" ones are pretty noisy when running, particularly with 3/4 of it below the table top as it would normally be in my shop. Also, I need to ship my 8" Dado King back to them to be re-bored anyway, so I was just going to toss in the WWII's as well.

Typically, I cut 4/4 hardwoods and quite a lot of 8/4 stuff, some of which is rough, so I need about 2.5" of blade height. It's an extremely rare thing that I need to go higher. I'm thinking the 10" WWII would work for this, but may just take your advice and try the 12" blades that come with the saw for awhile to see how it goes. If they aren't too noisy, I may order the 12" WWII. Actually, now that I think about it, I can't do this as they're giving me a rip and crosscut blade, not a combo. I'm giong to want a combo on hand before the saw shows up.

I'm one of thoese folks that just leave my 10" WWII blade on all the time, even for ripping 8/4 boards. I typically clean up the edge with a jack or jointer plane anyway, so a little burning doesn't bother me. If I had a whole lot of ripping to do, I sometimes change to a ripping blade, but honestly, I'm usually too lazy.

I see you use a 40 tooth WWII in 12" size. How does this perform on crosscuts and rips?

Regards,

John

[Charlie Plesums]

I haven't noticed any difference in noise between the 10 and 12 inch WWII blades.

I rarely change blades... I don't even have special rip and cross cut blades any more. I use the 10 inch blades just to get the use out of them, but when I am dealing with thick wood (2 inches is thick to me) I sometimes need the extra diameter for the cut. More than 2 inches, and I go to the bandsaw.

I have used my dado blade on the combo, so I know it works, but I don't use other than to prove that I can. Most sheet goods are not perfectly flat, and the depth of the dado depends on the flatness (I saw pictures of one shop that had a bicycle wheel that lowered from the ceiling to keep the sheet goods pressed down over the blade, but I don't have that option). Therefore I cut my dadoes with a router, which follows the curvature. Then I can pull the panel flat when I clamp it up. I use a guide clamp and a 1/2 inch router bit, then without moving the guide select from a collection of shims to make the second pass, choosing the shim that will match the thickness of the plywood. Today's plywood is so bad, that I sometimes have to use a different shim for each end of the dado. 23/32 = 0.71875, so the most common shims are 0.21 or 0.22" thick, by about 3/8 wide, by about a foot long.

The Woodworker #6 grind makes every 5th tooth a raker, slightly improving rip performance, and giving a slightly flatter bottom of the kerf.

[John Harden]

Charlie, thanks for the advice. Felder changed the design of their 700 series saws last year and part of that is that the fixed and sliding blade shrouds now just about totally enclose the blade below the table. Makes for super efficient dust collection, but on the saw I looked at recently, it came at the price of noise. His blade made a high pitched whistling noise when fully retracted. It diminished the higher you raised the blade, but with it only 1" or so up, it was still there.

From what I've read this is much a symptom of his choice in blade and zero clearance insert as it is the shrouds, but most Felder owners I spoke with seem to agree that smaller blades are quieter.

You got me to thinking about blade tip speed though. I wonder how much it is to add the variable speed option?

Hmmm..............

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You got me to thinking about blade tip speed though. I wonder how much it is to add the variable speed option?

Hmmm..............

LOL! You can't second guess yourself John! For the record, it is nice to slow the blade down to quiet it down. Doesn't take much, which is probably why the 12" is noisier then the 10".

[John Harden]

LOL! You can't second guess yourself John! For the record, it is nice to slow the blade down to quiet it down. Doesn't take much, which is probably why the 12" is noisier then the 10".

Actually, its only been a week since I placed my order so I can likely still make the change without a problem. I just talked to my rep and he's going to call the factory to confirm and to get me pricing. I was looking at the wrong line on the configurator when I wrote that it was $2000. It's about $1200 list and they'll give me a discount, so we'll see.

On FOG some folks mentioned that with variable speed you can take the router spindle all the way up to 19,000 rpm. Do you do this? I just called my rep on his cell phone. They're all at AWFS in Vegas and he asked one of the factory reps standing next to him and that guy said (in thick Austrian accent) that it'll go above 15,000 but that they don't recommend it. The only time I'd ever consider going up that high would be with very small bits that perform better at that high speed, so I can't imagine it'd stress that giant spindle all that much.

Thoughts? Benefits of variable speed?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Actually, its only been a week since I placed my order so I can likely still make the change without a problem. I just talked to my rep and he's going to call the factory to confirm and to get me pricing. I was looking at the wrong line on the configurator when I wrote that it was $2000. It's about $1200 list and they'll give me a discount, so we'll see.

On FOG some folks mentioned that with variable speed you can take the router spindle all the way up to 19,000 rpm. Do you do this? I just called my rep on his cell phone. They're all at AWFS in Vegas and he asked one of the factory reps standing next to him and that guy said (in thick Austrian accent) that it'll go above 15,000 but that they don't recommend it. The only time I'd ever consider going up that high would be with very small bits that perform better at that high speed, so I can't imagine it'd stress that giant spindle all that much.

Thoughts? Benefits of variable speed?

I'd spring for the variable speed personally. I've heard the 19,000 rpm too, but as I don't have the router spindle, I don't know. I do know that the dial will go that far, and it has two scales, one for the shaper spindles, and one for the router spindle. The shaper will go to 10,000, which shows a consult manual icon on the router table. 8,000 rpm on the shaper spindle is about 15,000 on the router chart.

Stands to reason though, if my understanding of VFD controls is correct, that the motors are all three phase motors being controlled by a Lenze computer running variable frequency with 240 volt single phase input, so it should be possible to actually go above 60hz, to turn the motors faster. I could be all wrong, so someone that knows this stuff, please correct.

I love being able to just tune the speed a little. Think about how fast a 12" blade tip is moving compared to a 10". At 5000 rpm, the 12" is going 15,700 fpm, while the 10" is only going 13,083 fpm. A 8" dado is a slowpoke at 10,466 fpm. Whats the ideal speed? Depends on the blade and job, so having the ability to adjust the speed easily allows you to get to that ideal speed for each job. You can also just leave it set on one speed if you like, and have it operate just like a constant speed machine. It's easy to see why 12" blades are louder too, on a fixed speed machine.

The same thought process applies even more to the shaper part of the machine.

[John Harden]

I heard back from my rep and some folks on FOG. Rep says I can still add or change stuff for another week before it hits the factory floor in Austria.

Turns out the variable speed allows the router spindle to spin up to 22,000 rpm's!! Though the factory rep shakes his finger at doing this, five or six owners tell me they do it all the time for small bits when they need to. Risk is you'll wear out the bearing on the spindle, but a replacement is only about $150.

The real plus is the shaper spindles on these models only have one belt position and you just change it by turning the dial. VS comes in handy on the saw motor for the reasons you mentioned, plus when cutting aluminum, plastics, etc. I cut all these on occasion.

I should have the price tomorrow, so I'll mull it over at the show while I'm there.

Thanks for the advice and helpful comments!!!

Regards,

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Wow! 22,000! I did not know that.

[John Harden]

Steve, just checked out your gallery with pics of your shop.

Two comments:

First - Sorry to see you have such an ordinary hand plane collection. Did you lose count at 500??

Second - Any bandsaw with a wheel diameter so large that you need to install chain link fencing as a protective guard is just too cool for words!!!!!

That is all........:cool:

Regards,

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, just checked out your gallery with pics of your shop.

Two comments:

First - Sorry to see you have such an ordinary hand plane collection. Did you lose count at 500??

Second - Any bandsaw with a wheel diameter so large that you need to install chain link fencing as a protective guard is just too cool for words!!!!!

That is all........:cool:

Regards,

John

LOL! Not quite 500 planes yet, but they keep multiplying, and I like the chain link fence idea. Might hang some on the little Delta so it fits in better!

[Charlie Plesums]

The variable speed feature sure sounds sweet!

I am sure it isn't a problem, but something to keep in mind as you slow down the speed... any internal fans on the motors slow as well, but the heat generated by the motor doesn't drop proportionally. And a router bit designer that I talked to (about using router bits at a mere 10,000 rpm on a shaper) was worried about overheating the bits, even with slower feed speed, since the design is to get rid of much of the heat by throwing the chips, and the chips don't carry the heat away as well at a lower speed. I would assume that the slower chip throwing applies to all cutters.

With a light router bit running at 22,000 rpm instead of the 15,000 design speed of the spindle, it would be interesting to calculate the load on the bearing with the cutter working more efficiently at the higher speed. It might even be less????

[Rye Crane]

Steve,

What are you doing in my shop? Jeez, that's a beautiful Oliver 36" bandsaw. You have a wonderful shop, room to move around, a truly
great mix of machinery and I just love the hand plane collection. Are they all Stanley's or do you have a mixture. Any wooden molding planes hidden back in there somewhere?

It must be a pleasure to work in such an atmosphere, good lighting. Your Felder where you aren't tripping over stuff like I am. I've had to lose 40 lbs just get around my stuff. I thought we would be moving to a different house, then the bottom fell out of everything and just like everyone else now we are just waiting to see how bad it will get. In the mean time my Dr. is happy and my wife wants me to go out and get some new clothes that aren't falling off my butt. There's always a golden lining right. If I go buy some clothes I'll just have to get a few more pieces of something
at the wood store.

Steve, good work on your shop, I can imagine dying in a nice place like that. They can just build a box around me and my MM's.

Rye Crane

[Leigh Betsch]

Ya Steve I think your shop looks great, that Oliver looks like the one that was in my shop. Matter of fact it looks like just like my shop in the background of that lathe pic!:eek:
Of course I probably have a plane pic or two that look just like ones that were in your shop.:D

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve,

What are you doing in my shop? Jeez, that's a beautiful Oliver 36" bandsaw. You have a wonderful shop, room to move around, a truly
great mix of machinery and I just love the hand plane collection. Are they all Stanley's or do you have a mixture. Any wooden molding planes hidden back in there somewhere?

It must be a pleasure to work in such an atmosphere, good lighting. Your Felder where you aren't tripping over stuff like I am. I've had to lose 40 lbs just get around my stuff. I thought we would be moving to a different house, then the bottom fell out of everything and just like everyone else now we are just waiting to see how bad it will get. In the mean time my Dr. is happy and my wife wants me to go out and get some new clothes that aren't falling off my butt. There's always a golden lining right. If I go buy some clothes I'll just have to get a few more pieces of something
at the wood store.

Steve, good work on your shop, I can imagine dying in a nice place like that. They can just build a box around me and my MM's.

Rye Crane

Thanks for the compliments Rye, it is a great place to get away from it all. I do have a row of molding planes, look at the photo of me standing in front of the planes, the woodies are on the shelf at elbow level. They are nosed into the wall, so there are a bunch of them there. Kind of funny, I needed a place to store the planes temporarily when I moved in, and that half a** shelf has kind of grown on me. It is nice to see them all out in the open. I have mostly Stanley stuff, but there is some Chaplin, Sargent, Record, Norris, Winchester and Preston mixed in for good measure. The other rack that is not in the photo actually has the rarer stuff on it.

The old Oliver bandsaw is like a good friend. What a saw. I bought it as a project from a guy in Montana. It is a babbit machine that I intended to put roller bearings on, but the babbit is working really well for now, so it's still original. The table tilt mechanism is MIA, and it used to be a line belt machine. Now for the good stuff, it's 5 hp, uses Tannewitz/Oliver hybrid guides, runs a 1" Trimaster usually, and has a Laguna Driftmaster fence. Takes a little getting used to seeing the wheels when you're running it, but it is easily the best bandsaw that I have ever used.

I've moved stuff around a bit since those photos as well. The Felder pics where taken when I was still setting it up, (which is also why it is set up for a process that I never use) so it has moved a bit. Leighs old lathe now sits under the window, and I added more cabinets. Everybody needs a place to go to shut the chaos of the day out, and this space sure does it for me.

I guess if your doc is happy, and your wife will be happy with just you getting some new clothes, then the situation must not be too bad!

Which MM machines do you have?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ya Steve I think your shop looks great, that Oliver looks like the one that was in my shop. Matter of fact it looks like just like my shop in the background of that lathe pic!:eek:
Of course I probably have a plane pic or two that look just like ones that were in your shop.:D


LOL! That photo does look very similar to your shop! That's a pretty sweet little lathe, I think... guess with my rank ametuer turner status, I wouldn't really know a great lathe from a good one, but I do know that it works! The lathes color does look a little more appropriate in my shop then it did in your's with all that white equipment.:D

Have you tried out the planes? Hope I didn't sent you the warped junkers! ;)

[Rye Crane]

Steve,

In my little 2 car garage I've shoehorned in:
1. ST5-Elite S saw shaper 6.6 hp 3 phase 3 speed saw power lift digital readout. digital rip fence. Articluated power feeder arm w/maggi steff 2048 4 roller 8 speed feeder.

2. FS2 Jointer/Planer 520mm 9hp 3 phase w/mortise table 2200# solid

3. MM24 bandsaw

4. Delta drill press

5. Delta 14" bandsaw

6. Hand Tools: Lie Nielsen's inventory and 275 various woodies.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve,

In my little 2 car garage I've shoehorned in:
1. ST5-Elite S saw shaper 6.6 hp 3 phase 3 speed saw power lift digital readout. digital rip fence. Articluated power feeder arm w/maggi steff 2048 4 roller 8 speed feeder.

2. FS2 Jointer/Planer 520mm 9hp 3 phase w/mortise table 2200# solid

3. MM24 bandsaw

4. Delta drill press

5. Delta 14" bandsaw

6. Hand Tools: Lie Nielsen's inventory and 275 various woodies.

Nice lineup! You really don't mess around with the little iron do you?;) Do you have the blade guard that has the rollers on your saw? Never been around one, do you like it? That FS2 makes me do a double take everytime a see a pic of one. What a monster! Glad to see that you have a "few" planes hanging around too!

[Charlie Plesums]

Charlie, thanks for the good advice. I hadn't thought about blade tip speed. The main reason I was going to use a 10" blade is noise. The 12" ones are pretty noisy when running, particularly with 3/4 of it below the table top as it would normally be in my shop. ...

John


I haven't noticed any difference in noise between the 10 and 12 inch WWII blades. ....

Breaking news on noise... I was cleaning up some old stuff, and found a 10 inch 40 tooth Sears combo blade. I cleaned off the pitch and it seemed pretty sharp, so I put it on the saw, and it gave a surprisingly clean cut for an old blade - good enough to use. But it was easily twice as loud as the 10 inch 40 tooth Woodworker II combo. I don't normally wear earmuffs when sawing, but I sure would if I were using that blade. I will be giving it away.

Bottom line, the blade itself can make a huge difference in noise, even though they looked very similar - same size, same teeth, relief cut every 10 teeth, etc.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Steve,

In my little 2 car garage I've shoehorned in:
1. ST5-Elite S saw shaper 6.6 hp 3 phase 3 speed saw power lift digital readout. digital rip fence. Articluated power feeder arm w/maggi steff 2048 4 roller 8 speed feeder.

2. FS2 Jointer/Planer 520mm 9hp 3 phase w/mortise table 2200# solid

3. MM24 bandsaw

4. Delta drill press

5. Delta 14" bandsaw

6. Hand Tools: Lie Nielsen's inventory and 275 various woodies.

Rye,
1) I will raise you a Formula S35 & T50n to your ST5
2) Not sure how much bigger your FS2 is compared to my older model FS41 with the mortiser on the back (permanently)
3)MM24...ditto
4)drill press check
5)14 " bandsaw....you got me there
6)handtools yes but all of mine most likley cost the same as one of your planes! but I do have a real nice #92 that I love
7) will raise you a edge sander
8) wil riase you a combo disk/belt sander
9) will raise you my MML 160
10) will raise you a 60 gl compressor
11) 15hp Kay RPC
12) many other normal tools and wood storage on the wall

Now I know you have to have more stuff in there....
and my shop is 25x25....
almost got that belt sander in but you know money and the economy happened....

[Leigh Betsch]

Ya well do you have one of these?;)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ya well do you have one of these?;)


Say, that looks like a jig borer!;)

[Rye Crane]

Paul,

Ok you win, but one thing my space is 20X20 after I burn 2 feet on each side for shelving and wood storage. There is also a 7' German bench, 3 stacks of Festools, and a partridge and a pear tree.

take care,
Rye

Steve,

Yes the FS2 is awsome, the cut quality with the 4 knive Tersa head is as good as I've ever seen. My mortise machine is on a hydrolic lift cart so I can zip in on and off. Yes, my blade guard on the ST5 has the rollers fore and aft and it works well. The rollers allow the guard to roll over the crosscut fence and drop down on the stock you are cutting. It only drops about 1/2" but it's enough to do a good job of pickup.
Rye

[Paul B. Cresti]

Ya well do you have one of these?;)

No, no antelope on my wall but I do have a Bob the Builder doll and one of those talking catfish thingys ;)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Rye,
Now thats more like it I knew you had more stuff in there....I too have benches on both side but my workbench is much fancier...4 layers of good ole ply and trimed out with poplar. I even used fancy 4x4 posts for the legs!

So how is that st5 treating you? You going to Vegas?

[Leigh Betsch]

trade ya for that MML 160, might even toss in his big brother and a house cat;)

[John Harden]

The variable speed feature sure sounds sweet!

I am sure it isn't a problem, but something to keep in mind as you slow down the speed... any internal fans on the motors slow as well, but the heat generated by the motor doesn't drop proportionally. And a router bit designer that I talked to (about using router bits at a mere 10,000 rpm on a shaper) was worried about overheating the bits, even with slower feed speed, since the design is to get rid of much of the heat by throwing the chips, and the chips don't carry the heat away as well at a lower speed. I would assume that the slower chip throwing applies to all cutters.

With a light router bit running at 22,000 rpm instead of the 15,000 design speed of the spindle, it would be interesting to calculate the load on the bearing with the cutter working more efficiently at the higher speed. It might even be less????

I'm beginning to think you folks are a bad influence!!! Just returned from AWFS and while there spent some time with the display model of the saw/shaper combo I'm getting. Went through the belt changes a few times and the downside is you have to move the slider all the way to the infeed side, then open the access door and loosen two levers. I'm worried that I'd be in a hurry or just too lazy to go through the effort and wind up using whatever speed the current belt setting was on.

So, I wound up ordering the 5 hp, variable speed option too. They gave me a good deal, so I'm happy.

Also picked up their 12" Industrial, Silent Power blade, that is supposed to be comparable in performance to a WWII. Finally, they gave me a smokin' deal on a new Forrest, 8" Dado King bored for the felder, so I got that too. They like to sell their version of a "dado head", but I think they realize that most people buy the Forrest, so I was pleased to see that they offer it now as an accessory.

I also spent some more time going through the changovers on the 16" jointer/planer I bought. That Power Drive is sweet!!!! It moves the planer table up and down very quickly making changoevers a snap!!

Now, all I need is November to roll around so I can play with my new toys!!!!!

Thanks again to all of you who have offered help and advice!!!!

Regards,

John

[John Harden]

Breaking news on noise... I was cleaning up some old stuff, and found a 10 inch 40 tooth Sears combo blade. I cleaned off the pitch and it seemed pretty sharp, so I put it on the saw, and it gave a surprisingly clean cut for an old blade - good enough to use. But it was easily twice as loud as the 10 inch 40 tooth Woodworker II combo. I don't normally wear earmuffs when sawing, but I sure would if I were using that blade. I will be giving it away.

Bottom line, the blade itself can make a huge difference in noise, even though they looked very similar - same size, same teeth, relief cut every 10 teeth, etc.


Yeah, I've experienced this too, though not to quite the same degree you describe. This was true right up until I visited the shop of that fellow with the same saw I recently ordered. His 12" blade was LOUD when fully submerged beneath the table top. Steve was saying how even a relatively small adjustment in speed will quiet this down, so I'm interested to see how this plays out with the variable frequency drive once it arrives.

Thanks again for the insight.

Regards,

John