Half blind dovetails and overlay fronts??

[John Keeton]

Other than the obvious answer of an applied front on a drawer box, is anyone aware of a DVD or tutorial out there on doing half blinds on a drawer front rabbeted for a 3/8" overlay? Although I am a tails first guy compliments to Cosman, it would seem that pins first would be required in this situation.

Any thoughts? How do you pros do it?

[Michael Sobik]

Well I'm not a pro, but you can have my method for what's it's worth :)

Are you talking about a lipped drawer with a thin (say 1/4") lip, or a full thickness overlay? For lipped drawers, I still cut tails first. Same as with a regular drawer. The layout is actually easier since you have the lip to push the drawer side into.

I've never done a drawer with a full thickness overlay, but I think I'd probably do something like the applied front like you mentioned or use a different joint like a sliding dovetail.

[Jerome Hanby]

Norm did it on his chest on a chest show. Did a rabbet, then used a jig to cut the half blinds with a jig.

[John Keeton]

Michael, yes, a lipped drawer as on a period Pennsylvania highboy. I guess the question is how would you mark the pins as it would be difficult to get a knife down into the socket?

And Jerome, I have abandoned/sold all my dovetail jigs, so this is a hand cut inquiry! I should have specified that. Thanks.

[Richard Dooling]

John, I don’t know if this might work for you but I found information on a no-knife marking system if you want to try tails first in this situation. This might be difficult to master but at least it's interesting reading.

From Chris Schwartz’s blog:

Sawmaker Mike Wenzloff (http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/ct.ashx?id=75a2d82e-7269-42c5-bd0d-a05d41dbf1bf&url=http%3a%2f%2fwenzloffandsons.com%2f) stumbled across this interesting short entry in William Fairham’s book “Woodwork Joints, How they are Set Out, How Made and Where Used” (available for free download here at the most awesome Project Gutenberg (http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/ct.ashx?id=75a2d82e-7269-42c5-bd0d-a05d41dbf1bf&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.gutenberg.org%2fetext%2f21531 )). After describing how some woodworkers use a knife or a saw to transfer the marks, Fairham writes:

“Other workers prefer a pounce-bag instead of a saw. A pounce-bag consists of a piece of fairly open woven muslin filled with a mixture of French chalk and finely-powdered whiting; the muslin is tied up with a piece of thin twine like the mouth of a flour sack. All that is necessary is to place the timber in position and bang the bag on the top of the saw-cuts, when sufficient powder will pass through the bag and down the saw kerf to mark the exact positions of the lines.”

The Schwartz experimented with this a little.

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,Joinery.aspx (http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,Joinery.aspx)

It’s a long series of articles but if you search for the term “powder” on the page you should find it by the second hit.

.

[David Keller NC]

Michael, yes, a lipped drawer as on a period Pennsylvania highboy. I guess the question is how would you mark the pins as it would be difficult to get a knife down into the socket?


John - I do these all the time, and I still cut the tails first. The trick is that you have to have the right marking knife. The Blue Spruce small marking knife is the one I use (after going through several others) because it's the only commercial one that I've found that has a thin, narrow blade.

However, before I got the Blue Spruce, I used a pen-knife sharpened ala Ian Kirby. The little swiss army pen knife that doesn't have all the stuff on it (like the bottle opener, cork screw, nuclear reactor adjuster, etc...) works well for the purpose. You simply have to grind the blade back so that you can sharpen it with one bevel instead of the double-sided one.

The reason I bought the Blue Spruce is that I figured out that while my little Swiss Army did the job, it was a bit awkward to use in reveres (since it has a bevel on only one side, you have to go in two directions to mark both sides of the tail). Rather than buy another Swiss Army and grind the opposite bevel off, I decided I'd rather have one tool that would work in either direction.

[John Keeton]

David, I have the small BS knife, ultra thin, and I may give that a try.

Richard, I had also heard of the "powder trick" sometime in the past, but had actually forgotten about that. I will check those links. Thanks!

Somewhere down the road, I really think a highboy, or some similar project is in my future. When I got into the handcut dovetail thing, I kept thinking about how to best accomplish those overlay drawer fronts. I know there are probably a dozen different methods, and it will be interesting to hear others comment on this.

It does seem that registering the drawer side against the rabbet is an advantage. But planing the pins and drawer side flush looks to be a cross grain effort?! Maybe the idea is to try to get them dead flush from the get go? David, how do you handle that?

[mike holden]

John,
I would run the rabbet AFTER I cut the dovetails. Allow for the extra depth needed for the rabbet and cut like a normal set of dovetails - then rabbet and assemble.
Mike

[John Keeton]

Let me make sure I understand, Mike. So, let's say your drawer side is 1/2", with a 3/8" rabbet/overlay. Would you cut the dovetail tail sockets 7/8" deep, and before glueup, run the rabbet on the drawer front?

[Michael Faurot]

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,Joinery.aspx

It’s a long series of articles but if you search for the term “powder” on the page you should find it by the second hit.
.

Or just use this URL, which goes directly to the article:

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/My+First+Pair+Of+Pantyhose.aspx

[David Keller NC]

"It does seem that registering the drawer side against the rabbet is an advantage. But planing the pins and drawer side flush looks to be a cross grain effort?! Maybe the idea is to try to get them dead flush from the get go? David, how do you handle that?"

Generally, I don't (plane the joint after glue-up). The reason is that I'm trying to not only reproduce the form, but also the feel of a period antique. It took me a while to figure this out, but the perfect look (and fit) of modern DT drawers is not desirable. So I will generally make the drawers about 1/16" - 1/8" less wide than the case opening. I'm not looking for "sloppy", but I also don't want a piston-fit, either.

There are couple of exceptions - If I'm making a Charleston repro, I will make the pins a little pround and take a toothing plane to the joint. It looks really rough when done, but perfectly matches a period antique. Interestingly, colonial Charleston furniture fits our modern idea of avoiding cross-grain construction, and almost always has niceties like drawer stops, full dustboards, and glue blocks inside bracket or ogee feet that are laminated so that wood expansion/contraction doesn't case the feet to crack. The speculation is that Charleston residents had expectations and tastes that were the most close to Britain during the period, and had a lot of professionally-trained cabinetmakers from London.

[John Keeton]

Interestingly, colonial Charleston furniture fits our modern idea of avoiding cross-grain construction, and almost always has niceties like drawer stops, full dustboards, and glue blocks inside bracket or ogee feet that are laminated so that wood expansion/contraction doesn't case the feet to crack. The speculation is that Charleston residents had expectations and tastes that were the most close to Britain during the period, and had a lot of professionally-trained cabinetmakers from London.Well, that begs the question then - what printed resources do you consider to be authoritative on Charleston work? Sounds like I may enjoy reading some regarding those techniques.

[David Keller NC]

Well, depends on the exact aspect of what you're looking for, but the bible on Charleston furniture is the last book that John Bivens published before passing away - the 3-volume set "The Furniture of Charleston, 1680 - 1820". I believe the publication date was 2004, but if you want a set of these, you'd better act fast. Many of these furniture books go sky high in price once the print run is used up, and they're rarely re-printed.

A good example is one of John's previous books - Furniture of Coastal North Carolina. Once the print run ran out, the book was unfindable, and if you could, the price was over $1000. The economy has put a real hit into the rare and out of print book market, so you can actually get a copy of this book now for about $700. I rather strongly think that once the economy improves, the available copies will again dissapear and rare book dealers will be asking $1500 or more again.

Anyway, you can still get the Furniture of Charleston for the discounted price from The Best Things:

http://www.thebestthings.com/books/furnbooks.htm

Or, MESDA (Museum of Early Southern Decorative Arts) has it for the publisher's price of $325.00

Most of the available supply has been sold. With a print run of only 5000 copies, I suspect this set of books will have a good deal more value than for the price that you can get it now, though you may have to wait 2 or 3 years for the supply squeeze to drive the price up.

[John Keeton]

The set seems to be already holding its value! Did some searching and, other than TBT, it is priced at $325 or higher everywhere! I may consider this....

Need to get over some recent purchases first. Perhaps a new round of "For Sale" ads!!:D

[Richard Dooling]

Thanks for providing the direct link Michael. I was in a rush earlier and didn't have time to do any more than I did.

Virginia - mother of the founders of the Republic of Texas

[Pam Niedermayer]

I don't understand the question at all. The main reason for applying a drawer front would be to avoid doing half blind dovetails. You'd simply do regular dovetails and slap on a piece of wood to cover.

Pam

[John Keeton]

Pam, the question goes to using a solid drawer front that is rabbeted for an overlay on the case. Specifically, I mentioned that I knew one could do an applied front, but many of the old pieces were done with integral fronts, rabbeted, with halfblind dovetails.

My inquiry was whether anyone had some good ideas on how to accomplish that. It may not be worth the effort, but I am curious nonetheless.

[Frank Drew]

I think it's best to fit the drawer parts to the opening first, then rabbet the sides and top of the drawer front *, then cut the tails and mark your pins from the tails; any sticking can be done before or after the joints are cut, depending on your level of nervousness (when cutting your pins, it's easy for your saw to cut a bit of the lip since it's kind of in the way, so take care, but that's why some people save the molding until last so that you can clean up any stray kerfs. In any case, there will be more chisel work on the pins with this style of drawer front since the saw can't get all the way into the cuts.)

*Traditionally only the top and side edges have lips, althought the bottom edge is also molded to keep the look even all around (the bottom of the drawer front is even with the bottoms of the sides and flush with the lower case rail.)

[Pam Niedermayer]

John, why not post a photo of the piece you're trying to do?

Pam

[John Keeton]

Pam, I really do not have a piece in mind yet. Just wanting to expand on the skills set. However, the drawers are commonly used on pieces such as this highboy.
http://www.aaawt.com/html/bee_ads/mar_07/images/191-127_qa_highboy.jpg

[mike holden]

John,
That is exactly what I would do - except I would not measure the exact depth, I would take a 3/8 spacer, place it against my side board, and set the marking gage to that, but in concept, yes, that is what I would do.
I would also rabbet a bit deeper than the tails so there is a land above the tails.
Thinking about it, I would make the setback from the face based on the edge treatment of the drawer face, plus a bit for the land and then set my tail height accordingly.
You can tell of course, that I dont generally run to set dimensions on a drawer. By this time in the project parts are fitted not measured.
Mike

[John Keeton]

Thanks Mike, excellent description! Never really thought about the land, but that would be a necessity for the proper look. And, I agree about building to the case. I don't use measurements at that point either, but needed to do so to explain my question.

Seems like one would want to use a drawer front of closer to an inch or better in order to have a strong joint with tails that are over 3/8" long.

[Phillip Pattee]

John,

If I understand correctly what you are trying to produce, I think it looks like this period piece from Philadelphia found on Adam Cherubini's site.

http://www.adamcherubini.com/Dovetail_Saws.html

I suspect that this is one of those closely held techniques that true master craftsmen used to showcase their skill. I bet they went pins first. I would contact Adam Cherubini directly and see what he knows. His specialty is authentic reproductions. I believe he is a member here so you can PM him about it.

[David Keller NC]

"Seems like one would want to use a drawer front of closer to an inch or better in order to have a strong joint with tails that are over 3/8" long."

While that would be the case with modern sensibilities applied to case & drawer construction, I've never seen any colonial antique that had drawer fronts thicker than 7/8". Generally speaking, the tails are about 2/3rds of the total thickness of the drawer front, sometimes a bit less.

There's no historical reference from this, but if you think about how these drawers were made, it would make logical sense that the cabinetmaker would set the depth of the rabbet, and thus the hieight of the pins, based on the available thumb-molding plane that he had in his shop. Of the thumb-molding planes that I have, they generally cut a profile that's about 3/8" deep, including the fillet on the drawer front, which leaves about 1/2" for the pins.

One curiousity about this process - Frank mentions being careful not to scarf up the back side of the drawer overlay rabbet with the dovetail saw, and I can confirm that's a valid concern. I've ruined several drawer fronts by not paying attention to where the dovetail saw was cutting. Unfortunately, simply leaving the molding till last will not help, since the molding's cut in from the front side of the drawer, and doesn't typically take off any length (thus removing over-saw marks). What you can do is leave the drawer fronts over-length, and shoot the end-grain after you saw the pins. However, doing that means that you have to shoot the end grain after cutting the pins on every drawer, since it will be over-length regardless of whether you accidentally cut the back of the rabbet or not.

Instead, what one sees on period pieces (at least most of them, anyway) is that the dovetail saw was allowed to over-cut on the inside of the drawer. Sometimes these over-cut kerfs extend as much as 2" into the inside of the drawer front. Modern sensibilities would probably be very offended by such construction marks, but they're common on antiques - the emphasis was on the show surface, with little expectation of highly-finished, "perfect" interior surfaces.

[mike holden]

John,
Yes, drawer fronts were quite thick, almost an inch. They probably started with a 4/4 board and planed the front smooth and went from there.
Mike

[Frank Drew]

I got the order of things wrong in my post above: You have to rabbet the drawer front first, to fit the drawer opening, not fit then rabbet.

Mike's mention of a bit of a land above the tops of the tails (which shows in the Phillip linked to) would help prevent the unintentional kerfing of the inside of the rabbet when you're cutting out the pins.

[Charles Murray Ohio]

John,

Look on page 136 of Jeffery P Greens book "American Furniture of the 18th Century, he walks you through this. If your interested in period furniture consider joining SAPFM. The next local meeting for the Ohio River Valley chapter will be held at the College at Rio Grand in their WW department September 26 & 27th. They hav a 2 year program that focuses on period furniture. Check out SAPFM at; sapfm.org.

Charles