Bosch goes down the tubes

[Steve Nouis]

Just got a Bosch 4 x 24 belt sander made in China, if I want made in China tools I'll buy ones that I know are made in China. No such thing as intergerity any more. just greed. Steve

[Blake Barr]

Umm maybe the Chinese where able to satisfy Bosch's QC? They aren't all necessarily neanderthals...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Steve,

Foreign made stuff ..yes even Chinese made stuff...can be of varying quality. It just depends on what the manufacturer is willing to pay .....

[Burt Waddell]

Just got a Bosch 4 x 24 belt sander made in China, if I want made in China tools I'll buy ones that I know are made in China. No such thing as intergerity any more. just greed. Steve

Steve,

We'll never learn to like it but you had may as well accept it.

About 3 years ago, I bought a new Makita planer and was rather angry when I discovered that it was made in China. I decided to check the Makita planer that I was replacing and see where it was made. (I run a small commerical operation and use a Makita planer about 3 years and replace it - works out to be no maintenance). When I checked the older planer, I found that it was also made in China!!

At this stage of the game, China is capable of making a very good product. It all depends on what the company ordering the product gives the people in China for quality standards.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not fond of things made in china but we need to recognize their abilities.


Burt

[Mike OMelia]

One day, Made in China will be synonomous with Made in Japan. Made in USA? What?

[Dave Garcia]

Steve,

Understand your frustration. And, as has already been said, we can either accept it or............. Am still trying to figure out what the "or" part is.

I think all of us remember when "Made in Japan" was the kiss of death with regards to tools. Now the #1 best selling car all over the world is Toyota, the once proud GM trade mark stands for Government Motors, and I'd bet my next pay check (non government stimulus one) that most of us in this forum have at least one Japanese power tool in our shop. Makita comes to mind.

The bottom line is that there are some very fine tools made all over the world. The key is to find one that fits your needs and your budget. My shop looks like an international shop when it comes to hand tools and floor mounted machines. My latest purchase is a LaserPro C180 made in Taiwan using mostly American made parts. But before purchasing this unit I did a LOT of research as to quality, replacement parts availability, safety, and service. What I found satisfied all of those requirements.

Such is the way of the "world market" these days. But, let it be said, that I buy American when I can find it. If it comes down to an "equal" choice then I'll go with the American made product every time. But, as you've painfully found out, that doesn't happen very much anymore.

It ain't our Daddies Sears and Roebuck anymore! Now there's a very profound statement if I've ever heard one! I guess we all have to look in the mirror for the reasons for that.

Dave Garcia :)
The Wood Block, Ltd

[Andy Bardowell]

............. No I won't say a word.

Steve don't get me started or Ken will boot me off the Creek!

[Matt Sollars]

And on the flip side of the coin....(I'm sure this won't go over well.....)

I've purchased several, very poor, ''Made in USA'' products as well.

There are companies that make great products all over the world. The reverse of such is true as well.

Matt

[Ken Fitzgerald]

............. No I won't say a word.

Steve don't get me started or Ken will boot me off the Creek!

Ken isn't racked and stacked with enough horsepower to get you booted off the Creek........
:p

[Brian Ashton]

It should be a lively thread when some of our favorite hand tool makers start having some of their parts made in china... You can bet it's been talked about around the boardroom tables. I would say it's also a case of when it happens no if it happens.

[David Keller NC]

Well, I wouldn't blame a company for responding to "the new consumerism" which is "cheap above all else". Much of the woodworking community could have fingers pointed at them in this respect - the SMC General WW forums have a good deal of threads devoted to "what's the cheapest price I can pay for XXXX tool", and the Neander forum has a good number of posts bemoaning the "high" price that Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen charges for their tools.

In fact, I regularly read something to the effect of "I can't afford a LV XXXX plane". No one posts their financials (and that's a good thing), but it is very highly unlikely that 99% of the posters really can't afford a LV or LN plane, they just don't want to afford one, and there's a distinction.

Were it not for this kind of pricing pressure, there would be no WoodRiver planes made in China, for example. There are some of us that will pay extra for high-quality tools, but that's an increasingly small percentage.

[Jason Beam]

If it were so important to you, wouldn't you ... i dunno ... CHECK first?

Take it back ... get your money back.

I wonder how many of the complainers actually DO take the item back and pay the extra price for their domestic items. Or ... do they just complain?

Do something about it. Don't just gripe and expect it to change. Use your wallet. If you just whine and keep the tool, you're just as bad as all the other sheep who shop on price alone.

For the record: I really don't care where it's made. If it's a quality item, I'll pay for it. Price is only a main concern if the quality of an item I'm buying isn't as big an issue. Otherwise, it's below quality, support and customer service.

[Art Bianconi]

Like it or not, the world is smaller than ever before and the isolationist - protectionism mentality will no longer work, if for no other reason than we need their oil and we need to sell our products to developing nations like China.

The trick is to not do what GM and Chrysler did: ignore obvious market trends.

The most vital of them was the persistent loss of market share to products that gave people what they wanted and were made elsewhere for less money. How can anyone expect to beat that formula with stagnant designs from the Jurassic era?! The volume of sales of off-shore made products got to the point where those foreigners built plants here and now employ hundreds of thousands of Americans!

The trick is buy on the basis of perceived quality vs cost of acquisition, regardless of where it's made. With choices made in that fashion, junk disappears for lack of interest.

One friend who is a respected name in the fashion industry said it best: "You are better off buying the least expensive item in a quality store than the most expensive item in K-Mart" (or Harbour Freight).

I agree.

I just purchased a dual miter cut-ff saw from Bosch and it's well made, I haven't a clue where it was manufactured and, frankly, I don't care.

Art

[Mike Henderson]

Well, I wouldn't blame a company for responding to "the new consumerism" which is "cheap above all else". Much of the woodworking community could have fingers pointed at them in this respect - the SMC General WW forums have a good deal of threads devoted to "what's the cheapest price I can pay for XXXX tool", and the Neander forum has a good number of posts bemoaning the "high" price that Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen charges for their tools.

In fact, I regularly read something to the effect of "I can't afford a LV XXXX plane". No one posts their financials (and that's a good thing), but it is very highly unlikely that 99% of the posters really can't afford a LV or LN plane, they just don't want to afford one, and there's a distinction.

Were it not for this kind of pricing pressure, there would be no WoodRiver planes made in China, for example. There are some of us that will pay extra for high-quality tools, but that's an increasingly small percentage.
Our whole economic system is based on productivity - being able to make and/or sell something that meets the customer's needs at a lower price.

It doesn't make sense to pay more for something if another thing will meet your needs at a lower price. Woodworkers are rational buyers - they are no different than any other consumer.

Mike

[Frank Hagan]

Hey, if we quit buying their products, they'll quit buying our Treasuries. And then we'll all be broke because interest rates will be back up above 20%.

[glenn bradley]

One day, Made in China will be synonomous with Made in Japan. Made in USA? What?

Oh goody. It'll be like oil. Let's get totally dependent on another country for our stuff. Wheeee.

[Stephen Tashiro]

Woodworkers are rational buyers - they are no different than any other consumer.
Mike

What? I resent being accused of being a rational buyer. You should see the inside of my garage. (In fact, I wish I could see the inside of my garage.)

Pricing is not quite the whole story of economics. How could we explain Apple Computer with that theory?

But I agree that once a product, or rather the public's idea of the product, is more or less standardized then pricing becomes the significant factor.

[Mike Henderson]

Remember I said, "meets the needs of the consumer" and not just price. For example, many people paid fairly high prices for the iPhone because they perceived that it had features that they wanted, and they were willing to pay for.

So putting this in woodworking terms, let's say our hypothetical rational buyer wants a #5 size plane. They have a lot of options available to them, and lots of advice from places like this. They will make a decision based on what which product best meets their needs, which includes the price.

The company that "succeeds" will be the one that creates a plane that best meets the needs of a large percentage of the rational woodworkers who want to buy a plane (and that includes the price they are willing to pay). Marketing plays a part in this success because the company has to get the word out to the woodworkers about their plane, its features, availability, and its price.

Apple has always built products with features (including looks) that appeal to a certain segment of consumers and those consumers are willing to pay a bit more for Apple products and those features. Perhaps the reason Apple doesn't have the majority share of the computer market is because many consumers are more concerned with price than with the "features" of an Apple computer.

Mike

[LN and LV have done well in the market for woodworkers who want a plane that performs well out of the box. If WoodRiver (for example) can offer a plane that performs well out of the box at a significantly lower price, we would expect a significant percentage of those rational buyers to purchase the WoodRiver plane instead of the LN or LV.]

[Steve Mellott]

I own several Bosch tools, and from a quality perspective they are some of the best tools in my workshop. As long as they continue to market a quality product, I will continue to be one of their customers.

Steve

[Ray Dockrey]

Why is this in Deals and Discounts????

[Chris Konikowski]

Cap and trade is going to put the final nail in US manufacturing... NOTHING will be made here any more...

[Brian Ashton]

One day, Made in China will be synonomous with Made in Japan. Made in USA? What?

My estimate is china has about three more business cycles (20 to 35 years) before they price themselves out of the cheap export market. The chinese are no different than us. They want their 6000 inch tvs, the six cars in the drive way of the 7500 sq foot house. So they're going to start unions and so forth, demand higher pay, equal rights, double time on holidays... Then I guess it will be africas turn at an industrial revolution... And then after that it will be what ever region on the planet that's the poorest where cheap labour is easily exploited. And the cycle will keep going round and round.

Most nations like America are still in the manufacturing business. They "manufacture" (can't think of the right terminology) technology and knowledge so to speak and then export that to other nations. The trick is to keep ahead of the other economically evolving nations.

[Steve Nouis]

It does look like a well made sander, if it holds up good fine. It would be nice to know where it's made before you buy. I try to USA if the price isn't too much higher, a lot of tools aren't that far apart any more. This belt sander Bosch 1276d 4 x 24 and heavy was under $100 shipped from Amazon Steve

[Steve Nouis]

Why is this in Deals and Discounts????


Bosch 4 x 24 model 1276d for under $100 shipped from Amazon seems way better than the normal $250 or so. I should have posted this sooner. Steve

[Leo Voisine]

Made in China.

Is NOT going to change by complaing - and certainly NOT by a few people NOT buying made in China stuff.

Get used to it.

Get creative.

Get ingenuity.

Do something that they don't do.

Once you develop something ingenious.

Get in make in China - and get a higher return on your investment.

Uhhh - we DO - like to make money? - no?

we DO look to make the highest gains possible?

If you disagree with this - you most likely do NOT have a 401K or an IRA, and have no investments at all and don't care about how your retirement savings is doing. Cause THAT is what it is al about.

China is fully capable of making excellent quality products. We teach them how to do it.

Bosch - German quality - they also teach the Chinese how to do the quality.

So now we >all< are faced with HOW to make a >global< economy work.

[Frank Trinkle]

Made in China.




I don't really give a damn what your background or experience is... but we DO NOT refer to the Japanese by that slur anymore, and I think you owe a serious apology to some of the Japanese and Japanese descendant members we have here on SMC!:mad:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

[QUOTE=Leo Voisine;1165010]Made in China.



Uhhh - we DO - like to make money? - no?

we DO look to make the highest gains possible?

If you disagree with this - you most likely do NOT have a 401K or an IRA, and have no investments at all and don't care about how your retirement savings is doing. Cause THAT is what it is al about.

QUOTE]

Leo,

I don't know what planet you are living on but my 401K is spread across stocks and bonds and it's in the toilet right now.

I work for one of the largest global corporations in the world. On any given day I could be talking to a co-worker from France to yes even China.

[Brad Wood]

If you disagree with this - you most likely do NOT have a 401K or an IRA, and have no investments at all and don't care about how your retirement savings is doing. Cause THAT is what it is al about.

QUOTE]

Leo,

I don't know what planet you are living on but my 401K is spread across stocks and bonds and it's in the toilet right now.

I think what Leo means here is that it is the whole shareholder desire/demand for an increase in their portfolio over time that forces companies to look to cheaper manufacturing options.

the fact that all the stocks are at a low right now has nothing to do with it, thats just a ebb in the typical ebb/flow process of the stock market (ok, so sticking with the tide theme, it is a rather serious minus tide, but it is still just a swing)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have actually had good luck with Chinese made tools that have major brand names on them. It's the way cheapo stuff ya gotta watch out for [like Homier and Cummins stuff]

I remember my last helper bought a belt sander from Harbor Freight. I didn't think it would last very long but it's still going two years later. I think it's a Chicago Electric.

You just never know these days, but I'd bet that with the PC name on it, you'll be alright.

[Ron Bontz]

Ok. Ok. IMHO we complain about quality, lack there of, and then complain when we have to pay for quality. If we are going to complain, rant, etc. about any thing consider this. First, we, yes we, are almost as guilty as the large corporations when it comes to wanting what we want for nothing. Second, if we are going try to "buy American", perhaps we should all do it for the right reasons. Now I consider China a third world country, based on human rights, excessive pollution, etc.. Every day in these countries large corporations from the USA, with the help of our consumerism, use, exploit, and yes sometimes hurt through poor working conditions, the people of those countries. Child labor is exploited in what amounts to basically sweat shops. Oh and who helps these people if they get hurt "on the job"???? Oh that's right , no one really. Someone from Africa once said to me "if you don't work, you don't eat". Government, being bought and paid for by large corp., is in and of itself a self corrupting machine only caring as far as it has to to stay in power through votes, violence, etc. In the mean time back at home...."how dare they charge so much for that "made in USA" part". "How dare they pay that auto worker so much money. He's greedy." I could go on and on but I think we can all "get the picture."

[Frank Trinkle]

Let's add a little reality to this debate....

A coworker of mine has a brother who is a high-school dropout... 19-years old. He works (at least he DID) at one of America's car manufacturing plants.

His job is to get into a car as it comes off the line, and drive it approximately 300-400 yards to a parking lot, then return to get the next one.

This HIGHLY TECHNICAL and EXTREMELY DANGEROUS (sic) job pays this dropout $50.00/hour with full benefits and union representation.

Now... is it any wonder why we're paying outrageous prices for US made products???!!!:mad:

[Eric Larsen]

This HIGHLY TECHNICAL and EXTREMELY DANGEROUS (sic) job pays this dropout $50.00/hour with full benefits and union representation.


While I don't doubt you in the least, it's unbelievable that someone could make that kind of money doing THAT for a living. $50/hr. times 40 hours/week times 52 weeks equals $104,000.

That's ridiculous - he's a corporate valet.

[Phil Phelps]

Let's see, we've gone form OP, Just got a Bosch 4 x 24 belt sander made in China, if I want made in China tools I'll buy ones that I know are made in China. No such thing as intergerity any more. just greed. Steve
To this:
Reply With Quote
[QUOTE=Eric Larsen;1165129]While I don't doubt you in the least, it's unbelievable that someone could make that kind of money doing THAT for a living. $50/hr. times 40 hours/week times 52 weeks equals $104,000.

That's ridiculous - he's a corporate valet.[/QUOTE
... so without risking a political comment, there's not much use in a response.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This thread has deteriorated way too much to warrant further commentary or moderating.

Therefore, I've closed it.