Difficult (possibly stupid) tablesaw cut

[Michael Panis]

Hi Folks,

The other day I had to make a difficult cut angled cut. Things went fine, but I found myself wondering if there was an easier (or safer) way.

The first picture shows the board after I made the cut. Note that I needed to cut it at a 24 deg angle. If I had tried to cut the board lying flat, I would have needed to cut it at a 66 deg angle, beyond what a tablesaw could handle, so I decided to cut it vertically.

I started with "Plan A" (2nd picture). It basically involved tilting the blade to the 24 deg position, using a sacrificial fence, and a featherboard. I lined up the fence so that just a little bit would be left on the bottom of the board (3rd picture). To increase my safety, I used a clamp riding on the fence to hold the workpiece as I moved it into the cut. (4th picture). The 5th picture shows a close up.

(continued)

[Michael Panis]

The cut went fine even though only a little bit of wood was touching the table once the board went past the blade. But as I got to the end, the pressure on the back of the piece forced the board down the insert. I've exaggerated it in the first picture, but you get the idea. Lucky for me only the workpiece suffered. No fingers lost.

Well, now I had to make the cut again, only this time, since I had removed too much wood, I couldn't hold the piece with the clamp. I tried Plan B (2nd and 3rd pictures).

This involved moving the fence to the left of the blade and making the cut on the top of the workpiece. Luckily, the height (width) of the board was small enough I could do this. Again, I used a sacrificial fence and featherboards (turned upside down).

This cut went well (OK--I burned the wood a little. Time to clean the blade), but it still didn't feel safe. Only the featherboards were holding the workpiece against the fence.

I'm looking for any advice (including You Fool!! What were you thinking???)

Thanks,

---Mike

[Lee Schierer]

That is a cut that can be done on a TS without question. However, I would not do that cut without a zero clearance insert and I would either clamp or attach the sacrificial piece with double sided tape and slide both pieces along the fence as I make the cut. I would also use push sticks to keep my hands well clear of eh exposed blade. I might also use an elevated feather board (makes contanct above the top of the bevel) behind the blade area to hold the outfeed portion tight to the fence. The burn marks in the photo would suggest that your fence is angled slightly toward your blade.

[Chris Kennedy]

I've made a similar vertical cut a couple of times, though I didn't need to cut both sides, and I left more material at the bottom of the cut. The first time, I did pretty much what you did, and after I did it, thought -- never again. My hands were never close to the blade, but it just didn't feel right.

After that, I have attached the stock to another, thicker board (nice 2 by 4) with brads, and then run both through simultaneously. It felt better, but since that project, I have avoided making such cuts.

If someone has a good way, I am all for it.

Cheers,

Chris

[Thomas Knapp]

If you attached the piece to be cut to another board it would give you more surface on the saw. If screws or clamps will not work you can use double stick carpet tape to hold the boards together. Plan b would be to cut the angle cut on a wider piece of stock and then set the blade to 90 deg. and separate the piece you need from the waste.

[Eric DeSilva]

What about using a tenoning jig? Skip the fence totally.

[Michael Panis]

Great idea! I'd still need a sacrificial board between the jig and the workpiece.
Only one problem: I don't own a tenoning jig.

But now I can claim I need one for safety reasons!

I also like the suggestions about attaching the workpiece to another board.

---Mike

[Prashun Patel]

Two ways come to mind:

1) Make a 'fence sled': a u-shaped jig that slips over the fence. Clamp your target piece to the sled, and slide the whole contraption over the saw's fence.

2) Make the cut as a non-thru cut and use a handsaw and plane to remove the cutoff.

either way, I'd definitely use a ZCI; that piece is just BEGGING to shoot down into the throat.

[Chris Kennedy]

Great idea! I'd still need a sacrificial board between the jig and the workpiece.
Only one problem: I don't own a tenoning jig.

But now I can claim I need one for safety reasons!

I also like the suggestions about attaching the workpiece to another board.

---Mike

From the picture, your saw is left-tilt. The tenoning jig will be further to the left. As I sit here at my computer and nowhere near my tablesaw, I don't see this as physically working. The right hand slot will be too far away.

What am I missing?

Cheers,

Chris

[Floyd Mah]

Here's my idea:
Make a sled with a side that is slanted at 24 degrees from vertical. Do this by cutting a 3/4 board at 24 degrees. Use this as the base. Take another board also cut at 24 degrees. Attach this vertically to the first, so that you have a /_ shaped sled. Make the upright board as wide as you need so that you have clamping room. These would take two cuts at 24 degrees, but no higher that 3/4 inch. Clamp your work piece to the slanted board (or glue or screw). Place your saw at 90 degrees and make your cut. If you don't want a piece to drop in the saw insert, just nibble at the edge until you are just cutting the width of a kerf. Or you can use a bandsaw to make your initial approximation and then finish on the table saw.

[Robert Strasser]

I made a tenon jig shown in Woodsmith issue 127. You can buy the plan from Plansnow.com, http://plansnow.com/tenon.html.

I've attached a picture of my version installed on a sliding table saw. The Woodsmith plan is a mirror image of mine for use on a standard cabinet saw.

[Ryan Baker]

Method A works just fine, but it's absolutely necessary to use a zero-clearence insert (or at least tighter clearence than you were using). Attaching it to a carrier board improves the safety a lot and makes it easier to hang onto and feed. The problem with method B is that it gives you the chance of trapping the board between the fence and the blade, setting you up for a nasty kickback.

[Jeff Strickler]

I'm thinking out loud here, having never needed to make such a cut, but couldn't you have made some kind of holder or jig that would have allowed you to make the cut with the workpiece positioned horizontally rather than vertically to the cut, but such that you'd be able to get the angle needed? I understand what you are saying about not being able to accomplish that due to the degree of angle to the cut, which is why I'm thinking out loud that with a jib of some kind -- maybe a couple of wedges cut at an angle for the workpiece to rest against -- you'd have been able to make the cut? When I first saw what you were trying to do, it struck me that a bandsaw might have been the better choice, but that realistically you'd end up with a similar jig, making it irrelevant which saw you used, I think.

Perhaps I'm uncreative, but I think I would have stepped back and asked exactly why I needed such a cut in the first place and whether a compromise could be reached.

Edit: looks like Floyd Mah and I have essentially the same idea.

[David DeCristoforo]

Your cut is not that uncommon. I need to make such cuts frequently and I use a variation of the method described by Shawn, a jig that slips over the fence that the stock is clamped to. On longer cuts I use a jig on my sliding table. Tenon jigs assume that the cut is an "end" cut, not a "long" cut. Of course, having a sliding table makes this even easier. Also you want to be sure that your blade is SHARP and that your stock is "dead straight".

[Jack Ellis]

In addition to the recommendations made by others, I'll be the nanny and suggest you might want to use the saw's blade guard.

I had to rip thin strips a few days ago and flipped my blade guard up to do it, but even with a push shoe that kept my fingers well away from the blade and a blade height that barely exposed teeth through the cut, it was pretty uncomfortable.

[Frank Hagan]

My father used a shop built jig to hold the stock on a 22° angle; he made a few dozen raised panel doors that way. The jig looked big to me, and I wish now I had laid claim to it. I'll bet my thieving brother took it ...

[Peter Stahl]

I vote for the tenoning type jig that would hold it vertically or a sled you could mount it to. I had to make some 45 deg cuts on some panels that my BIL butchered so I made a sled to hold them square to the fence to make a really nice clean cut. Davids idea was a really good one too. I just cut some trim for a cathedral ceiling (which I haven't put up yet) and had to do a angle like yours. Being they were 12 foot long a jig was not usable.

[Russell Tribby]

Is there any reason you couldn't do this on the jointner (assuming you have one)? It would require a few passes but it's the method I've turned to recently when I need to bevel long pieces.

[Jason Roehl]

In addition to the recommendations made by others, I'll be the nanny and suggest you might want to use the saw's blade guard.



Look at his pictures again--the blade guard would be in the way, which would only make it MORE dangerous to have in place. The suggestions of a fence-sled or an attached piece are good ones. The attached piece could even have a sacrificial "thumb" at the back end to help push the piece.

[Aaron Berk]

But my 2 cents involves the planer.
ShopNotes magazine made a slick planer sled that was adjustable for angles just like this one.
I can dig up the issue and picture if you want. The jig consisted of two pieces of ply held together with a piano hinge along the long side, and a sliding wedge system that engaged on a threaded rod for setting the angle. The Jig required several passes before reaching final taper profile.

The whole thing was pretty slick and looked rather fool proof to me.

I can find it if any one is interested.

[sean m. titmas]

when i have to make a cut like that i attach the stock to a length of 4x4 with a few spring clamps and 2" holes drilled into the top of the 4x4. use PSA sanding discs adhered to the 4x4 for a friction fit. the whole assembly will slide past the blade.
also install a zero clearance insert.

[Nathan Hawkes]

If you attached the piece to be cut to another board it would give you more surface on the saw. If screws or clamps will not work you can use double stick carpet tape to hold the boards together. Plan b would be to cut the angle cut on a wider piece of stock and then set the blade to 90 deg. and separate the piece you need from the waste.


I was going to suggest the carpet tape as well. I've used it a couple times on turning projects, and as long as the two surfaces are clean and smooth, and even, steady pressure is applied for a while to get the bond, the hold is very strong. On a lathe, its as easy as applying pressure with the tailstock. I imagine it'd be just as easy with clamps for flat stock.

[Chris Kennedy]

The new Popular Woodworking that arrived today showed a really big auxiliary fence for raising panels on the tablesaw. It should work for this kind of cut. You might want to have a look.

Cheers,

Chris

[Greg Deakins]

Reading these posts really gets me thinking about how dangerous I am in the shop. I make these cuts frequently. Using an old craftsman contractor TS, I built a zero clearance out of plexi that had almost no gap between the blade and insert. A sac. fence is used and it is brought right up to the blade. The blade is only brought out the the end of the cut, and the board usually goes through fine. I never stand directly behind the saw while doing this though. Taking some advice from here, I think I will begin attaching the piece to a larger board. If you have a joiner, a simple jig could be made to do this cut safely and efficiently.