Anyone using twist drills in their Brace?

[Jeff Myer]

I recently picked up a box of bits from my brace and along with the countersink bits that I was really after, I found a good selection of standard twist drill bits with a square drive to fit in my brace. The sizes are in the 3/16-5/16 range.

My initial thought was that twist drills would typically require higher speed than I can provide with a brace. Perhaps these are to be used in something else.

Anyone out their using this type of bit in their braces? How is it working?

Of course I do realize that I could just pop one of these in my brace and try to drill some holes but I am interested in knowing more of the intended use for this type of bit. Would they typically be for wood or metal etc.

I can post pics if anyone is interested.

[harry strasil]

I occassionally use some old square tapered shank drill bits in a brace, there are 2 distinct types, ones for wood only that have a lot more taper to the cutting edge than bits of today and ones with a taper like today that were made for metal.

[Stephen Shepherd]

I would never admit to it in public, but I have a small collection of twist drill bits, most marked Winchester that I will use on occasion. I have an 1/8" and 3/16" that are most handy for smaller holes.

I have some sharpened both ways.

Stephen

[Jim Koepke]

If they are sharpened properly, speed is not necessary.

jim

[Mike Henderson]

I've used twist drills with a brace, but since I have a cordless drill now, I mostly use it instead of the brace.

Mike

[Steve Thomas]

I use twist drills in a brace all the time. Just the normal ones round shank.... I just have to make sure it's fairly tight so they don't slip.

You will have no trouble using them... bore away.

[Derek Cohen]

Yep. I have, in fact, built two braces just for this purpose. Both have a 5" throw.

The first one ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Drills/Usingabraceforhinges1.jpg

And the recent one ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Drills/AWR%20Brace/Brace-complete3.jpg

And for fun, here is a drill drilling (what will be) a drill so as to do some drilling ... what was that?! :)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Drills/Eggbeater1.jpg

I did a bit of research on grinding shapes, but really could not find anything at all. I just use standard twist bits. Any references available?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Matson]

The square shanked twist drills work great for breast drills that only have a two-jaw chuck like many of the Millers Falls drills with Barber or Master chucks. If you use round shanks with them they will often seize up in the wood and the chuck will spin around since it doesn't have enough grip on the bit.

[george wilson]

Drills with a cutting edge on their margin will start cleaner holes than ordinary metal type drills. If you have a narrow grinding wheel,it isn't too difficult to regrind metal type drills into brad point types. Just be careful to use the original centers and outer corners of the lips as guides when re pointing them. Save a little bit of the original centers and outer corners when re grinding,and grind them away at the very last,to keep your drills cutting on true centers.

[Rob Luter]

I keep a couple eggbeaters for use with twist drills. If I have quite a number of holes to drill I'll use my Bosch cordless. As it is a non-tailed tool I can rationalize using it in a Neo-Neander sort of way (anyone buying this ;))

[Noah Wagener]

for drilling metal is the egg beater preferred to a brace provided the brace has a three jaw chuck and can hold the drills?

What is the traditional shaped drill for using on metal and what was used to turn it?

cool brace Derek.

[ian maybury]

Good quality (as in sharp) brad points will cut cleanly at the hand powered RPMs. Egg beater type drills as the guys and as in Derek's picture are very good for drilling smaller holes in wood or metal where there's not a lot of torque required - they give excellent control of alignment...

[Stew Denton]

Hi all,

They used to make a modern style chuck that holds round shank twist steel bits that would chuck into a brace. It had a square shank, so it would fit into the chuck of a brace like a bit, and then you could use that chuck to hold a twist steel bit.

I have one, but have not used it yet. I thought it might be handy at times. Mine has a problem with one of the springs that keeps the jaws spread, and I have not taken the time to take it apart and try to fix it yet.

Stew

[Peter Evans]

I would never admit to it in public, but I have a small collection of twist drill bits, most marked Winchester that I will use on occasion. I have an 1/8" and 3/16" that are most handy for smaller holes.

I have some sharpened both ways. Stephen
Welcome Back Stephen, good to see you posting again.
Cheers
Peter

[harry strasil]

Most old bits were carbon steel, and if they are sharp they will drill an automotive leaf spring if the drill speed is slow enough and the right amount of pressure is used. Traditionally and before so called post drills came into use, the palm bowl was removed on a special heavy or cast brace and a point on the pushed end was used with a wooden or an iron overarm was like a fulcrum with an adjustable weight or pulled to apply a steady pressure on the bit while the brace was turned by hand by a srong apprentice. there is a good example of this procedure in the book A DICTIONARY of AMERICAN HAND TOOLS by Alvin Sellens pg.72.

































Stew,a bll point spring works well whencut to length for a replacement.











A

[Hilton Ralphs]

Drills with a cutting edge on their margin will start cleaner holes than ordinary metal type drills. If you have a narrow grinding wheel,it isn't too difficult to regrind metal type drills into brad point types. Just be careful to use the original centers and outer corners of the lips as guides when re pointing them. Save a little bit of the original centers and outer corners when re grinding,and grind them away at the very last,to keep your drills cutting on true centers.

Michael Fortune has a great video on-line that shows this technique. Yes I know it's an old thread that was resurrected but this may be of help to some.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcwOBL0tTbc

[Noah Wagener]

What about forstner bits in a brace?

[Darrell LaRue]

I have a number of twist drills with square shanks. Picked up half a dozen with that taper (see post above by Harry with the pix of the bits) for drilling wood. They range from 1/4 inch to 3/4 inch, and are NOS, so nobody has reground them. I try to use them as template for sharpening other square tanged twist bits for use in wood.

I also have some twist bits for metal, which are ground just like a twist bit you but at the hardware store these days. I've used them several times in the past to drill holes in mild steel and aluminum. The biggest holes I did with these bits were 5/16 diameter through 1/4 inch mild steel. Pilot hole first with a 3/16 bit, and the properly sharpened brace bit peels off twin curls of steel. Fast cutting does not necessarily mean high rpm.

311802

I use a tanged 13/32 twist bit for tapping maple trees. 10 litres this year!

Darrell

[Derek Cohen]

What about forstner bits in a brace?

I seem to recall a tip in a recent (latest) PW mag that recommended drilling a pilot hole first. With this in place, a forester bit cuts well. The pilot hole acts as a depth stop as the bit stops cutting as it reaches the end of the hole.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I do not know of ANY TRUE Forstner bits being made today. TRUE Forstner bits do NOT have that center point that all these days seem to have. They wanted Forstner bits to drill a FLAT bottomed hole years ago,even in the 60's. I bought REAL Forstner bits as late as that.

Certainly,a real Forstner bit is not going to start without a FULL DIAMETER hole to set it in. Even then,they are not the most efficient bits to drill with,more suited to a drill press.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Like these, George?

http://www.vintagetools.net/product/two-henry-boker-forstner-bits-529bb

[Noah Wagener]

So would you drill with an auger and then use the true forstner just to clear to the depth the lead screw went? If so could you grind the screw off an auger to do the same thing? Other than the flat bottom, are there any other advantages over an auger?

[Stew Denton]

Harry,

Thanks for the tip, I will certainly remember that when I get around to tying to fix it. I was wondering whether the old spring could be straightened out, or what I was going to do.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[george wilson]

Yes,Joshua. As I said,I could still buy true Forstners in the mid 1960's. At the time,the only one I wanted was a 5/8" one to drill the truss rod well for guitar necks,so I bought no more. I don't know when they stopped making them correctly.

[Stew Denton]

Noah,

Forstner bits track by the rim around the edge of the bit, rather than by the screw point in the center of the bit like a traditional woodworking bit does. Thus, it can cut a hole in the edge of a piece of lumber or at an angle without wandering off. If you try that with a traditional Jennings bit you will be heading for trouble.

I have used some my Forstner bits, small ones anyway, in a power hand held drill with good success. However, I defer to George in this matter, believing him to be completely correct in that they really work a lot better in a drill press than in a hand held drill. I have had better success with a drill press. This would especially appear to be true of the larger ones, and I think also with the older type without the center point. I have never used to older type without the center point, but again defer to George becauseof his experience in such items, and you can readily see how difficult it would be to start the older type being without the center point to guide it initially.

Stew

[ian maybury]

Guess the big issue with a Forstner is that it's not going to cut very well unless it's held absolutely square as it cuts. Tilting will lift the main radial cutters clear of the work. They tend to wander a bit at first too if using a hand drill until the outer rim gets a cut established. Which explains the preference above for clamping the work under a pedestal drill.

I seem to find that the major use of the centre point in a Forstner is to help get the bit 9approximately) centred over a mark. Trouble is that being so blunt and indistinct (it's probably kept short to avoid it's breaking through in some situations) it's not terribly effective for that. Good quality modern ones like Famag cut perfectly happily on their own though without a pilot hole - albeit that there's probably some oddness going on in the centre.

Cheap Chinese ones can be so bad that one will cut, and the next not. Down to haphazard grinding of the cutting edges.

I'm not entirely sure what the recommended method for centring is when high accuracy is required. There's possibilities that come to mind - mostly involving marking either a circle or a couple of tangent lines to line up by, or even clamping on a guide piece with the appropriate size hole in it - but nothing all that convenient...

[Jim Koepke]

Guess the big issue with a Forstner is that it's not going to cut very well unless it's held absolutely square as it cuts.
[cut for brevity]
Cheap Chinese ones can be so bad that one will cut, and the next not. Down to haphazard grinding of the cutting edges.

I recently found a Forstner bit for a brace at an estate sale. It is dull, but can still cut a clean hole with a little care. Figuring the best way to sharpen it is a ways down on my to do list. It is the right size for bird house entries for some of the birds around here, 1-5/16".

My first set was from Sears. It is 1/4" to 1" in 1/8" increments. It works okay in the drill press. With the smaller sizes, it is important to withdraw the bit from the work often, otherwise it can get trapped in the work, DAMHIKT.

My second set was from the Used Tools store in town. It is made in China with a few bits missing. The sizes are from 1/4" to 2-1/8" in 1/8" increments, if my memory is working. (This will be edited later if need be.)

The second set has at least one shank with a little tweak. The shafts are very smooth causing the larger sizes to slip in the chuck. A little axial application of 80 grit abrasive has taken care of that. The bits are also not well ground. A slip stone and a little elbow grease has remedied this.

Most of the current Forstner bits have a sawtooth perimeter. The estate sale find has a knife edge perimeter. This makes it easy to start with a brace.

If more of those come my way at an opportune time, they will get a ride home with me.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

First a few drills/braces:
311920

The small hex adapters between the drill/braces are Lee Valley and Wera quick change hex bit adapters.

From the top, first the hand drills are: Stanley 610, next is a Stanley Yankee No. 1530AX, the big boy is a Stanley (North Bros.) Yankee No. 1545. These are all three piece chuck mouths so they will hold small/medium round shank bits like the Dewalt Bullet bits in the yellow box below or brad points.

Below the hand drills is a selection of braces: top brace is 6" throw Millers Falls No 34, second is Millers Falls No. 733 8" throw brace, last (bottom) brace is a Samson/Pexto 8010 10" brace with ball bearing chuck. All these braces have some form of corner in the chuck that helps hold hex drill bits, hex drivers, hex quick change adapters.

Although these drills/braces may be slower than a cordless electric they do have some advantages that may make up for the difference in drilling speed. The slower speed helps when one does not want to punch through the work piece splitting the far side of the wood. The Wood Owls long screws are long enough to have time to feel or hear the lead screw punch out the other side before the main shaft hits and splinters the wood. It is fairly easy to remove the bit, insert the screw through the small hole in the opposite side and drill the opposite direction, allowing the scoring edges to neatly remove the wood from the opposite side. I also find it easier to judge 90 degrees to the work surface or match the angle on a sliding bevel using a brace or hand drill vs an electric. Generally the chances of making a neat hole at the desired angle is improved using a drill or brace.

Another factor is with a large selection of drills & braces one can set different drills or braces up for one specific chore in a wood project and not have to constantly be swapping out drills, bits, drivers...as is necessary when using an electric drill. I tend to loose track of specific bits or dirvers as soon as I lay them down after swapping them out. It is much easier to keep up with an entire drill or brace and find it when I need it.

Selections of bits:
311922

The top bits are Dewalt Bullet bits, they have a smaller sturdier "brad point" which is less likely to break off. The middle collection of bits & drivers is a Rigid set all with hex shanks. The three bottom bits are Wood Owl auger bits 3/4", 1/2", 3/8" sizes.

Before someone questions whether or not Wood Owls bits work in braces:
311923

311924

311925

The first picture shows the three nice spurs on these bits and the nice long lead screw. I have not had the lead screw strip out a hole and refuse to turn yet. Although the picture shows a hole I drilled in a standard white wood 2x4 using the Miller Falls 8" throw brace and 3/4" Wood Owl bit, this exact same bit drilled 10 1-3 inch holes through glued up oak chair arms in four chairs at a recent Country Workshop class in a small fraction of the time in took to do the same work with other auger bits or green wood bits. The entire class and our instructor Drew Langsner vowed to purchase the larger sizes of these bits.

One other option, which George already mentioned, is grinding regular twist bits or brad points to achieve a longer sturdier "brad point". Peter Galbert is a fan of this method for making bits to drill accurate holes at weird angles for chair spindles and chair legs. Peter has a nice explanation of how to do this in his new book "Chairmakers Notebook", just now being released by Lost At Press.

Nice braces Derek!

[harry strasil]

I had a rather lengthy post for this thread and it just disappeared.