5 in 1 combo vs seperates

[Stephen Flatt]

Hi, I'm a amature considering either a 5 in 1 combo(Laguna Platimum) or purchasing a cabinet saw(PM 2000 or Sawstop PCS) along with seperate jointer, planer, mortiser.
I like the features of the combo (big jointer, sliding TS, less shop space), but I'm unsure about the quality of the platium combo.
I currently use a festool 55 and a laguna 16HD for sawing and do quite a bit of hand work. Also have a Powermatic 60B jointer and a Dewalt 735 that I'd like to upgrade as well.
I can get the combo for 6,000 with a spiral cutterhead and of course the seperates would cost more.
Thanks for the advise.

[Jamie Buxton]

The general rule is that if you have lots of space in your shop, separates cut the changeover time. However, if you're tight on space, combos of various flavors make sense. Some folks like the 5-function combos. Others limit their combo-ing to just the jointer-planer(-borer). The argument is that in the jointer-planer(-borer), there is only one motor, so there is some savings over the separates. With five-function systems, the saw and the shaper each have their own motors, so there is no cost savings. They're just multiple machines which next together nicely.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't know anything about the Laguna machine, but not all combos are created equal. I have a Felder CF 741 Pro, that takes about 20 seconds to switch from planer to jointer, but I think it is probably the fastest out there for that change. The change from saw to shaper takes a bit longer.

All of these time requirements for changing are a bit deceptive though, and are frequently touted as the reason that seperates are better than combos generally. If you are organized enough to avoid unnesecary changeovers and you set up each function a minimal of times, then the setup on a combo takes the same time as a setup of a seperate. The time loss comes in when you forget to shape a piece or something, and you have to swap back to that function.

I'm an amatuer, and I work in my shop in the winters only. I got my Felder around Thanksgiving, it took a month or so to get the system figured out, then it was really suprising how fast the projects flew out of the shop. Far faster then they ever did with my old tools. I think the reasoning being that the combo "forced" me to think in a more organized manner, and the better quality functions didn't hurt either!

A Euro combo also generally steps up the quality of the machines dramatically over anything but industrial seperates. That applied to the Minimax and Felder stuff that I've seen, but I can't do more than speculate about Rojek, Laguna and Knapp. Make sure you look at the other manufactures too, before you commit to anything.

One huge benefit that I almost forgot, combos get you a slider saw, which is by itself, nearly a reason to buy one of these. Space savings are big too, but your combo will take up a big chunk of the center of you space, so shop layout may change.

Good luck! BTW, there are photos of my machine on my profile page, if you are curious.

[Victor Philippi]

I have actually been shopping around considering the same question that you posed for about 6 months now. I have the fortune of having a Felder showroom only a few traffic lights down the street from my house and a Woodcraft store about 10 minutes from my house that has both a PM2000 and Sawstop saw on display. I've spent a lot of time at both places and had the opportunity to really look around all of these machines.

Felder actually has three model ranges that are aimed at the hobbiest / small professional shop: Hammer, 500 series, and 700 series. The Hammer is their entry level machine range while the 700 series is the high end range. They have some other even higher-end machines, but unless you're looking at spending $30,000+ on a stand-alone saw, they probably aren't what you're considering.

The PM2000 is an excellent saw. The table and build quality looks great and if I had one, I'm sure I wouldn't be disapointed.

The Sawstop is all that much more of a saw. To quote the people at my local Woodcraft "we have never had a saw this nicely built in out store before". Even excluding the blade braking feature, the saw is just massive and heavily built. As I understand it, the saw needed to be built this solidly due to the braking mechanism and the forces exerted during an actual blade brake. Again, I would be more than happy with one of these saws in my shop.

However, I really had a chance to play around with some of the Felder sliding table tablesaws. The sliding table really is the major selling point of a European machine like this. It's not even fair to compare the miter gauge on a traditional tablesaw to a sliding table, but a sliding table is like a miter gauge on steroids and human growth hormone. All of the various brands of sliding machines I've looked at have different outrigger tables and working surfaces that can be clamped on to the slider and they can all be adjusted to help you work with anything from small furniture pieces to full sheets of plywood. Having played with sliding tables extensively, I have decided that this is the way I want to go.

Even if you aren't looking to purchase a Felder or Hammer machine, check out their webpage and order a free demonstration DVD. This will give you an idea of what a sliding table can do and what the benefeits of a full combo machine are.

After looking at everything (a lot) I've pretty much decided that I'm going to end up purchasing a Felder CF531 Pro some time after next January. The only thing that would stop me from getting a CF531 would be if I could come up with enough money to get a CF741 P like Steve has!

Even if you don't end up with a sliding table machine, I'd at least go with a Jointer/planer combo. Hammer offers a 12" jointer / planer combo machine for about $3,900 (I've seen it on sale for as low as $3,100 if I remember correctly during the Felder Spring Open House). For the price you'd have a hard time finding a seperate machine that could match the Hammer A3-31's performance.

One more thing. I've read a lot of discussions about the merrits of a combination machine versus separates. The majority of the people who complain about changeover time haven't ever worked with a full combo machine. From my playing around with display models of Felder machines, changeover time is really negligable. If you can't take a minute to change you jointer to a planer or to set up the shaper on your saw/shaper, then you aren't really enjoying woodworking as a hobby. For the slight inconvenience of dealing with the changeover time, you get so much more machine for your money. I don't think there is an American standalone machine that can compete with any single function of a Felder machine be it saw, shaper, jointer, or planer.

[Mike Heidrick]

In the above linked woodweb post you have three or four guys that replied owned Laguna machines:

Rob - who does not list the machine he has issues with

Lendy who has had issues with the original Plat Mortiser (which did have issues IMO) but is MUCH MUCH nicer now with the V-way.

Marc - who in his posts spends the most time saying he flew back into a pile of wood twice when adjusting his planer. Really? Is he trying to be funny, serious?? WTF?

Todd - who does not list the problems he had with his TSS and Edge bandit

Take the reviews for what they are worth. I really doubt that the woodweb posts, if you read them, have any proof of the quality of the 5N1 Platnium machine the OP is looking at. Also maybe these folks are trying to setup a pro shop on hobby money and do need to look at old/used to accomplish their task - nothing wrong with that!

If folks were going to drop $6-$15K soon on 5n1 machines it would behoove them to spend $300 or so and get out to AWFS in July and see ALL the models that are available. Put your hands on them and see what you like. I think when you try out the Platnium 5n1 you will find its quality is NOT that of the Euro combos but it is still a VERY VERY nice machine compared to some consumer seperates that are available. Above all, try them before buying them! Then you are not disappointed.

Personally, I want High end seperates.

[Jim Becker]

IMHO, well built Euro combo machines are worthy of consideration by any one-man operation who wants "big separate" capacities in reasonable space and cost. And it's not either/or relative to a 5-machine combo or separates, either. My choice was a sliding saw/shaper(router) with a separate J/P combo. That worked best for the way I personally work on projects. (I don't have the mortiser attachment due to some space issues)

Felder/Hammer and MiniMax are the combos you'll find "most prevelent" in these discussions and in many shops for folks who choose them. (My tools are MiniMax and I also have one of their band saws) Laguna does get mixed reviews on their offerings; sometimes on product and sometimes on support. Given the investment required for both quality combos or quality "big" separates, it pays to research and consider all your options. Mike's suggestion to get to AWFS in Las Vegas in July is excellent. All the major vendors for this kind of stuff will be there and you can fondle the equipment. This is a big (!) industrial show, not a "weekend warrior" oriented woodworking show and is a totally amazing experience. Vegas is pretty "cheap", too, when it comes to travel.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, I should remember this, but when is AWFS?

[Stephen Flatt]

Thanks for the input. I used a slider TS at a recent workshop and really enjoyed it. I could see it replacing my miter saw. I have plenty of room in my shop for either system. Thanks

[Brian W Evans]

A few questions about the combo machines:

1) Do you have to use special blades? Are they more expensive than, say, a good Freud? How hard are they to find?

2) How useful are the router spindles for the shapers? Is it really feasible to use the shaper like a router table?

3) What about dado cutting? It always seems from the web sites that you need special dado blades (presumably from the combo manufacturer at great expense).

4) How hard is it to switch from the paradigm of miter-slot/fence-riding jigs to whatever system you use on a combo? I understand that crosscut sleds aren't necessary on a combo (?), but I like to cut finger joints, raised panels, tenons, etc. on the TS.

5) Any idea about the current pricing on the Felder CF531 right now? I don't want to register and get bombarded with sales calls, but I'm curious.

Thanks.

[Mike Heidrick]

Mike, I should remember this, but when is AWFS?
[/URL]
AWFS is the Association of Woodworking and Furnishings Suppliers - [URL="http://www.awfs.org/"]http://www.awfs.org/ (http://www.awfs.org/)

It is the IWF (International Woodworking Fair) of the even didgit years. Different vendors but all the Vendors are at both.

They are both amazing venues. They are geared towards "industrial" but last year at IWF I saw all the woodworking stationary tools most forums discuss so it was awesome even for a hobbiest. It is perfect for a Prosumer looking for detail on products usually only show-roomed in LARGE cities.

Manufacturers pay huge amounts of money for large square footage at these shows. When they do that they bring out all their guns to try and drum up business. Many of them have full on demos/shows right in their own booth. Little mini woodworking shows. It is a good time IMO.

[C Scott McDonald]

A few questions about the combo machines:

1) Do you have to use special blades? Are they more expensive than, say, a good Freud? How hard are they to find?

2) How useful are the router spindles for the shapers? Is it really feasible to use the shaper like a router table?

3) What about dado cutting? It always seems from the web sites that you need special dado blades (presumably from the combo manufacturer at great expense).

4) How hard is it to switch from the paradigm of miter-slot/fence-riding jigs to whatever system you use on a combo? I understand that crosscut sleds aren't necessary on a combo (?), but I like to cut finger joints, raised panels, tenons, etc. on the TS.

5) Any idea about the current pricing on the Felder CF531 right now? I don't want to register and get bombarded with sales calls, but I'm curious.

Thanks.

1) On a felder you have to have your blades drilled and reamed. The have a metric arbor plus 2 pins to keep it from spinning on power down when it brakes the blade.

2) Dunno
3) You can get a forrest dado for the felder. It has to be drilled as well.
4) I doubt you could find a euro combo without a slider. That is one of their biggest selling points.
5) I am registared on their site and don't get cold called. I did talk to Fergus about some equipment and he emails used machine deals every once in a while nothing major. if you register they have a 500 meg movie you can down load that answers most of your questions. It shows a guy making a desk start to finish using a combo. It is worth it to watch. It does not list a price but says discounts are available. Pure guess would be 14 to 18 grand. Pure guess

[Gary Curtis]

To set your mind at ease, here's what an expert said about the advantages of having an Euro Combination Machine. He said the equipment replaced having five separate machines on his valuable shop floor. Six machines, if you count the mortising accessory.

This was Mark Duginske, former Fine Woodworking Magazine editor and author of about 5 highly-regarded books on woodworking machinery. He said this at a weekend seminar at the Felder showroom in Northern California.

Though he doesn't talk about it much, Mark is the fellow whose own inventions are now marketed under the Kreg brand name. If you can, get Laguna to give you the email or telephone of a few folks who own their Combo equipment. Ask lots of questions. My friend, owner of a high end cabinet shop in Santa Monica, proudly showed me his Laguna sliding table saw, and he loves it.

To give you a balanced picture, Laguna has its detractors. And I myself sold a sliding tablesaw (made by General) because it was too much for my "plain jane" needs. But I am buying a jointer/planer combination.

Ask questions. Go to the Laguna online forum. Don't be emotional and fall in love with a machine.

Gary Curtis

[Jeff Wright]

I own a MM 410 Elite combo. Have owned it for about two years and like it. It has not failed me yet. I have yet to use the mortiser unit (hate to think about lifting the 68-80-100 pound unit so it sits on a shelf. I use the Festool Domino to make floating tenons mostly. I have not used the shaper yet either, although I have all the spindles from routing up to 1.25-inch. I am too satisfied with my router table and investment in router bits to use the shaper at this time.

One aspect about the sliding table combo is you will no longer have a use for many of your conventional table saw jigs, so if you are a jig junky you will be disappointed. The combo does not have a miter slot that most jigs use for alignment with the blade.

Although I like the combo unit, I could be pursuaded to replace it with a jointer/planer combo and a conventional table saw. I think that might free up some space. Currently the 410 sits in the middle of my two-car garage and reduces space considerably around all four sides. I sometimes think a SawStop or PM2000 (or 66) would free up some space - even with the J/P taking up some additional space.

It is hard to deny the increased safety (or at least the perception of more safety) with the sliding table. However, I still find myself ripping a lot of stock using the saw fence, causing me to reach across the rearward thrust path of the blade. I prefer to rip on my MM20 bandsaw when I can for safety reasons. The slider is heaven when it comes time to work large sheets of ply impressive precision and minimal tearout due to the scoring blade. The 16-inch J/P has spoiled me; while I have never had to use the entire 16-inch width, it makes working even narrower pieces a pleasure.

Sometimes I wake up at night worrying what I would do should I need a wierd part or significant service on the combo unit. (Just kidding; not much messes with my sleep, but parts issues is a concern as I look out into the future.). Perhaps my concerns for parts and service are not warranted, but something built in a foreign land (Italy in this case) and that requires precision operation always has the potential for frustrations.

The MM brand is a solid machine. It was well represented by my sales associate Sam Blasco. Sam is a good man.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

A few questions about the combo machines:

1) Do you have to use special blades? Are they more expensive than, say, a good Freud? How hard are they to find?

2) How useful are the router spindles for the shapers? Is it really feasible to use the shaper like a router table?

3) What about dado cutting? It always seems from the web sites that you need special dado blades (presumably from the combo manufacturer at great expense).

4) How hard is it to switch from the paradigm of miter-slot/fence-riding jigs to whatever system you use on a combo? I understand that crosscut sleds aren't necessary on a combo (?), but I like to cut finger joints, raised panels, tenons, etc. on the TS.

5) Any idea about the current pricing on the Felder CF531 right now? I don't want to register and get bombarded with sales calls, but I'm curious.

Thanks.

Scott's got you covered on most of those questions, but on #4, I'd like to add something. The sliding table and shaper interplay on a full combo will change how you work. Forget those clunky old jigs for your conventional saw. You don't need a miter gauge groove when you have an entire sliding table to clamp or attach anything too. The best part is, because the shaper spindle is right behind the saw blade pretty much, the table works equally well with the shaper. There is practically zero similarity between the American syle tools, and my Felder. Like I said before, it took me a month to get used to the Euro system, but then productivity really increased.

It's hard to describe some of these functional differences, so I highly encourage you to see one of these machines in action. The video on the Felder site is a good one. Check out Sep riding the sliding table at the end!

If you sign up for the Felder site, you won't be bombarded with calls. You can even specifically ask to not be bothered I think. What you will get though, is great service when you do want to talk to somebody.

BTW, I would be glad to show my machine to someone interested, as are other owners. I got a list of willing folks for references when I was shopping, from Felder.

Bottom line, these machines when used to their potential, work completely different (and better, I think), than "traditional" tooling.

One other thing about parts, the companies that make the better brands are well established and are not going anywhere soon. Kind of like buying a BMW rather then a Ford. The service and parts are different, but both approaches work fine.

Good luck!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'd steer clear of Laguna. ( zero tech support and zero customer service).

As far as a combo:
Too much enforced operational rigidity for my taste. Ya gotta be all the way through any given operation before you switch over to some other.
For me that would be pure hell.

If you are looking at spending all that money look at Felder, Hammer, MM, Format etc.

I recall when I was looking at a Laguna I asked the sales to help me learn some things about the way the slider was built: Things like bearing diameter and quantity in the slider carriages. He knew nothing that wasn't in the glossy brochures and not one single thing beyond that. So I asked him to get some one from tech or failing that could he get me a tech specification manual or sheet. He said they had no tech people and no manual and if they did it's not be in english anyway.

I didn't take any more of his calls.

On the flip side the Felder rep went into a parts cage and found the part in question got a micrometer and measured the bearing in question.

[Wes Grass]

Re Felder:

1. They have an excellent selection of blades, in various price ranges ($50-200). Or you can order blades from other manufacturers cut for the Felder arbor at extra cost.

2. The router spindles run at 'only' 15k RPM, and cost roughly what a complete conventional router table, with lift, would run. So they may be a bit slow for small cutters. On the flip side, with the mass and HP they have they'll drive a big raised panel cutter like no router in existence.

3. The Felder dado cutter is a beautiful piece of tooling, with indexable carbide inserts. At least 3 notches above any dado head you'll find for a conventional saw. And, unfortunately, priced to match.

Freud (and probably others) is an option. In fact, they have one on display in the Sacramento showroom.

4. You won't find a lot of stuff off the shelf. But if you tend to make your own jigs these won't be a whole lot different. You'll just be locating off of (and anchoring to) a t-slot in the slider. Again, you won't find a rail at the local Woodcraft to fit, but a chunk of plywood and a t-nut will work fine.

5. The CF-531 is about $12k, base price with a 39" table. The Professional is about $16k, with an 81" table, outriggers, and some other upgrades. Add another $500 for single phase. And of course there are all sorts of other goodies you'll want for a 'slight additional fee' ;-)

[Victor Philippi]

5) I am registared on their site and don't get cold called. I did talk to Fergus about some equipment and he emails used machine deals every once in a while nothing major. if you register they have a 500 meg movie you can down load that answers most of your questions. It shows a guy making a desk start to finish using a combo. It is worth it to watch. It does not list a price but says discounts are available. Pure guess would be 14 to 18 grand. Pure guess


Actually your 14-18 grand guestemate for a CF531 is pretty close. According to their 2008/2009 catalog, the CF531 starts at $12,092.64 and the professional model is $15,878.24. However, this doesn't include the mortising table attachment and a bunch of other options. A fully tricked out CF531 approaches the $19k mark.

The CF741 starts at $19,036.64 for the basic model and goes up to $23,651.04 for the professional with 96" sliding table. Add the powerdrive features and your talking another $3,000 at least. A tricked out CF741 easily breaks the $30,000 mark. A saw similarly specked to that shown on the 500 meg CF741 video I would guess costs about $26,000+ or so.

On the other hand, Hammer (also made by felder) is offering their "deal of the century" and have a nice looking combo machine with a 78" sliding table for sale at about $10,000.

[Craig McCormick]

I bought a used Robland X31 combo. I only owned it for a year and really liked it for the money.....$3000 delivered.

I had to sell it along with other toys to pay medical bills. I'll buy another when things are better.

Craig McCormick

[Gary Curtis]

Cliff R. stated a few things i was reluctant to reveal when I responded in my earlier post. Tread carefully when dealing with machinery from Eastern europe sold through a supply channel with a checkered history for customer service and technical support.

But to repeat, take your time and keep your checkbook locked away until you get a real deal on quality equipment. With a little bit of keyboard wizardry you can do searches for this equipment on Craigslist at cities around the country. You keep the search criteria (Tools-combination, etc) the same and change the city name in the address line and scan cities within driving distance from your home. These machines would be on sale on a "local pickup" basis only.

I did this in January, and found Felder, MiniMax and Knapp, SMC combination machines at bargain basement prices around the SF Bay and L.A. areas. Remember, there is a serious recession and a lot of professional shops are (unfortunately) going out of business, and selling off their premium equipment.

Gary Curtis

[Mike Wilkins]

Get in contact with someone at Laguna with your needs, and see if they can put you in touch with someone who has a similar machine. When I ordered my Laguna Pro slider, they asked if it was OK to allow any other potential customers to call me. Got one call from a guy somewhere in the northeast and I was happy to provide my first-hand experiences. I have found that it is best to go directly to current Laguna customers for an unbiased opinion, either good or not so good, for info on a particular machine. I would not hesitate to go back to Laguna for another machine, like I hope to do in the near future. By the way; I love my slider.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I'm a amature considering either a 5 in 1 combo(Laguna Platimum) or purchasing a cabinet saw(PM 2000 or Sawstop PCS) along with seperate jointer, planer, mortiser.
I like the features of the combo (big jointer, sliding TS, less shop space), but I'm unsure about the quality of the platium combo.
I currently use a festool 55 and a laguna 16HD for sawing and do quite a bit of hand work. Also have a Powermatic 60B jointer and a Dewalt 735 that I'd like to upgrade as well.
I can get the combo for 6,000 with a spiral cutterhead and of course the seperates would cost more.
Thanks for the advise.

Hi Stephen, I looked at the Laguna Platunum series expecting that "Platinum" meant high end. This is not however the case, the platinum series are made in the far east, are of a lesser quality than the conventional Laguna machinery.

I purchased a Hammer A3-31 to replace a General 8" jointer and 14" planer, and couldn't be happier with my decision.

I'm considering a sliding tablesaw/shaper next.

As others have said, the quality, performance and capacity exceed other machines capabilities unless you are considering real industrial machinery.

Good luck, look at Hammer, Felder, MiniMax as well, all great machines.

Once you've used a combo for a while, you won't go back.

I have my shop in the basement of a townhouse, and a combo allows me to have more capacity with more room left for the shop.

As to the dado cutter, you could have a conventional set bored for your machine, however the Euro dado sets look like a shaper cutter, with scoring and hogging cutters. You get a perfectly flat dado, with so little tear out that it obsoletes all other cutter styles.

Have fun looking at all the machinery........Rod.

[Charlie Plesums]

I also have the MM CU410 elite 5 function combo.

I chose it over Laguna because I couldn't get an honest answer from them, and the reaction to them on the forums was bad service.

I chose it over Felder because it was a simpler, less expensive machine, that probably would be easier to maintain over the long run.

After I got it, I had a Robland user visit my shop, and was shocked when I leaned against my machine... that lean would have knocked the Robland out of alignment. He is now a MiniMax owner.

Those reasons could have changed over the 4 1/2 years I have owned my combo, but I would do it again in an instant.

The precision the machine gives is unbelievable. Casework comes out square without fussing. Hardwood trims absolutely straight on the slider. Jigs are trivial or non-existant.

I recently made a table type base - legs and aprons, including all set up 16 mortises, taper two sides of four legs, in just under 30 minutes.

One of the best woodworkers in Texas visited my shop and worried about change over time. I switched from saw to jointer to planer and back again while he was asking about how long it took. No big deal.

Switching to/from the shaper is a bigger deal, so I recently got a separate shaper, but still count on the combo shaper for special function such as tilting spindle and sliding table. And I don't have a router table, so use the shaper for router functions.

I have had people from all over come to visit my shop, because they can't believe I can get an 8 1/2 foot sliding table saw/shaper , 16 inch jointer/planer, mortiser, (5 function combo) plus two bandsaws, drum sander, full size lathe, drill press, dust collector, etc. etc. in a two car garage. And if you give me 20 minutes, I can squeeze a car in too.

Ask me how I like my setup. Or give me a call.