plane question

[curtis rosche]

here are the picture of a plane i have. it is old and rusty i know, hasnt been taken care of. the blade is nicked like it hit some nails. is this plane any good? worth saving ? and whats the easiest way to fix the iron and take out the nicks and gouges?

the chip breaker says stanley. the front of the plane says Baileys the back of the plane says NO. 7

[Bill Houghton]

You'll need to clean it up and free up the adjusters for starters. I prefer SOS pads and warm water; others use mineral spirits and sandpaper. The adjusters should respond to penetrating oil (WD-40 or one of the better versions). On rare occasions, I've had to squirt penetrating oil, then gently apply a propane torch flame to the part for a bit, just enough to get the oil smoking. Let it cool, and repeat. You can also get bulk penetrating oil and immerse the part in a bucket of it for a week.

Whether to grind back the cutting iron past the nicks or buy an aftermarket replacement depends. How rusty is it? If there's a lot of pitting on the surfaces, then it may be better to buy an aftermarket iron. If you don't have a grinder and don't have the time to "stone" it back on coarse sandpaper and a flat surface (a chunk of MDF, for instance), then an aftermarket iron might be worth it - figure $40 or so.

The plane itself is a good tool, and the No. 7 jointer is a very useful tool, and not inexpensive in restored condition, so I think some effort will pay off for you.

[curtis rosche]

so this is an edge jointing plane? the nicks arent that bad, for me at least, for some of you sharpening freaks out there it would be a nightmare. i dont think the blade is pited just rust with a flake or 2. there is still some paint on the plane. is it worth saving the original paint, or can i just wirebrush the whole thing then sand with like 300

[Frank Drew]

Curtis,

Not just an edge jointing plane, but that, too.

Give it good cleaning and you'll know better what you have; to work correctly, the sole must be straight and flat and you can check that with a good straight edge and maybe some winding sticks.

Any nicks in the blade can be ground or sharpened out, but there are better replacement blades available these days. The rear handle (called a tote by some, but I don't know why) could use repair or replacing, but at the very least that awful paint has to come off :eek:.

The lever cap hole is the more desirable keyhole pattern; use the search function here to learn more about Stanley planes.

[curtis rosche]

do they sell the handles? this one is cracked at the base. whats a winding stick? and can you point me in the right direction to get a really good blade?

[Michael Faurot]

do they sell the handles?


Yes. However the price most places want for them seem overly expensive to me. Here's an example (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=635). For that price you could find a junker for less and and take the knob/tote. The other option is just to make some yourself. Lee Valley has these plans (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=63262&cat=1,46168) to do just that.



whats a winding stick?
You need two (winding sticks). They're used to help you find and see the wind/twist in a board. Take a look at this set from Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=53276&cat=1,41182). The pictures on that web page may also help you understand how they're used.



and can you point me in the right direction to get a really good blade?Again, Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42607&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1) has some. Another option is Hock Tools (http://www.hocktools.com/products.htm). Lie-Nielsen (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=512) also makes some excellent replacement blades for Stanely/Bailey planes.

[Dominic Greco]

do they sell the handles? this one is cracked at the base. whats a winding stick? and can you point me in the right direction to get a really good blade?

Curtis,
You can get a NICE replacement blade from Lee Valley or Hock. I've got one of each and find them both fantastic. You can also get replacement blades from LN. But be aware, they are around $40. They're expensive but can really make the plane sing!

Replacement totes and knobs can get pretty pricey. You're better off finding a junker plane with a good tote and knob, or even repairing the broken one yourself. You can re-glue those handles pretty easily with some Gorilla glue or Epoxy. I've done that on a number of occasions. You can use a length of 1/4"20 all thread, some fender washers, and a couple hex nuts as a "clamp" to hold it together while the glue dries. If your not crazy about that red paint, I'd use some paint stripper BEFORE re-gluing and THEN I'd glue it up.

About the rust, I recommend EvapoRust. I've rehabbed several planes using this stuff and have had great results. Here's a couple:

No 4 1/2 Type 19
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/Stanley45Type19_a.jpg

No 608C Type 5
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/BR608_after4.jpg

No 607 Type 4
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/BR607_after4.jpg

No 605C Type 5
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/BR606_After_3.jpg

No 605 1/2 Type 4
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/BR6055_After_1.jpg

You can get it at your local Harbor Freight store. I think there is a 50% off HF coupon floating around here somewhere.

[curtis rosche]

well, good thing i can fix it with epoxy. i just got 1 gallon of epoxy in the mail last week

[Jim Koepke]

there is still some paint on the plane. is it worth saving the original paint, or can i just wirebrush the whole thing then sand with like 300

You will be surprised how well that old paint stays on. A good repaint with a gloss enamel can really make a difference in how the plane looks and feels.

I think they are called totes because that is what a lot of people use to carry them when they are toting them to the job.


For that price you could find a junker for less and and take the knob/tote.

My biggest problem with that is the planes I bought for junkers to get the handles turned out to be every bit as good as the planes that needed new handles. Had to find some seriously broken planes before being able to get one for parts. Sometimes the unknowing sellers think the planes are as good as new.

For bad handle breaks, planing the edges can help. If the break is too rough to repair, it may be better to carefully saw the edges and make a piece to fill in the gap. Old totes should never be thrown away, they come in handy for making replacement pieces. Save the saw dust to mix in with the epoxy to hide or fill gaps in the mend. Sometimes rose wood, and other oily woods, benefit by being cleaned along the edge to be glued.

jim

[David Keller NC]

" is this plane any good? worth saving ?"

I think this depends - on whether you like to do this sort of thing, and whether you consider it "fun" and don't balance it against time for woodworking or other activities. It appears that you've a #7 C (C for corrugated sole). They're not rare, but because they're not nearly as common as #5s and there's demand for them, they cost between $100 and $200 in excellent user condition.

Regarding the tote, you're probably best off making one for the rear out of something like cherry or walnut. On old planes, the totes and knobs are the parts that typically suffer the most damage, so they're in demand to complete collectible planes - there's a lot more plane bodies out there than good condition knobs and totes.

If both the knob and the tote were trashed, it might make sense to buy a set. But it looks as if the knob's in good shape, so you'd be left with an extra kicking around if you bought a replacement set.

[curtis rosche]

the knob is great, just needs some finish on it.
wow, $200!!?

[Jim Koepke]

wow, $200!!?

That would likely only be for one in pristine mint condition with original box, also in pristine condition.

You would have to put a lot of lip stick on that plane to get it up to a $200 value.

There was a recent sale at $36 and change plus $20 something for shipping. There is also a current listing with a buy it now for $100.

The pricing is all over the place.

jim

[David Keller NC]

"the knob is great, just needs some finish on it.
wow, $200!!?"

$200 means never rusty, original and undamaged finish on the tote, near full original length on the blade, and a manufacturing date prior to WWII. That does not include the box, however. That would add about $100 if in good shape.

Note that these are not e-bay prices, which are exceedingly depressed over the last 9 to 10 months. There's reasons for this in particular with Stanley bench planes. One is that for a Stanely bench plane to be collectible, it must be perfect - and I do mean perfect, or it must be very early. Because perfection is nearly impossible to judge in photographs, high-quality planes bring a good deal more at national auctions where the goods can be closely examined.

Another reason that Stanley bench planes, at least the more common ones, don't bring a lot on the 'bay is that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of listings. And 99% of them are not worthy examples, at least from a collector's stanpoint. That makes having one stand out in the crowd difficult, which further depresses values.

Very rare items bring far closer to their auction values on e-bay - a Cesar Chelor wooden plow plane brought about $8k last summer on fleabay because they are incredibly rare and hotly competed for.

[steve swantee]

Hello Curtis, if you want to replace that tote and not go through the effort yourself, then have a look here: http://drozsoldetymestanleytotesandknobs.com

Greg does beautiful work, and at really reasonable prices. No personal affilliation, just a satisfied customer.

Steve

[curtis rosche]

once i take the rust off, what do i put on it? paste wax, or a clear metal sealer or something else?

[Dominic Greco]

once i take the rust off, what do i put on it? paste wax, or a clear metal sealer or something else?

After I remove the rust, and I mean RIGHT after, I give the plane and all it's parts a coat of 3-in-1 oil and allow it to sit over night. Then I wipe it off and give the sole and sides a coat of Johnson's paste wax, or Renaissance Wax.

[curtis rosche]

what can i use to take off the paint? is a heat gun safe to use, or will it heat the casting to much and warp it? i dont have any paint removal products and i would be a waste for such a small project.

also, the chip breaker and everything else is pited slightly. to they need to be replaced too?

[curtis rosche]

heres pictures of the plane taken apart.

[Jim Koepke]

It looks like you might want to see how successful you are at getting the rust off before you work on painting.

For rust removal, a stiff wire brush is helpful. Wear a dust mask if you go this route.

You might want to search on rust removal, citric acid and vinegar here on the creek. Different folks try different ways and they all seem to work. One person even reported that he did not have citric acid but did have some dry lemon aide mix. Just mixed it a bit on the strong side and was able to remove rust.

I am not sure if this is still the case, but a long time ago photo supply stores would sell single packets of chemistry for photography. The stop bath is just strong vinegar (acetic acid).

If you use chemicals to remove the rust, they will often also cause a lot of the loose paint to fall off. After that, a stiff putty knife can help to remove a lot of it. I would advise against heat, it can restart or speed up the oxidation process.

As far as strippers go, I have not had much luck with them. It seemed more paint came off in the citric acid bath than the paint stripper removed.

jim

[curtis rosche]

so a new blade. take off the rust. flaten the sole. and paint. and fix the handle. is there anything else to look at?

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think you should start with that basic rehab process and just ask if anything come up. One thing at a time. For inspiration, do a search on "rehab" "refurbishment" and you should see quite a few pictorials detailing finer points of rehabing.

[curtis rosche]

when i did some wire brushing it kinda pitted the surface. is that from rust, and is that bad?

[Sam Takeuchi]

If pits look like moon craters, they are from rust. If it's on non crucial part, pitting wouldn't be a problem. The most crucial part is the around the mouth. If a spec or two of small pits are at the mouth, you can still make do with that. It wouldn't make your plane useless, but if it looks like it was bombarded by comets, either you can lap it out if they are shallow, or use it for rougher work. Front of mouth has a function to keep wood fiber down, so if pits are present, it can't do that. Slightly gnarly or tear out prone wood might pose a problem for a plane with pitted or chipped mouth.

For sole, it's not too much of a problem if pitting is only on some parts. There's enough sole to keep plane level and flat even if some pits are present. What's important is at least toe, mouth and heel are on the same plane. Even if in between areas are rough with pitting, it shouldn't cause too much problem. Of course, if you are determined to make the whole area flat, that's fine, too.

Pitting on sides aren't much of a problem either. As long as sides are 90 degrees to the sole, you can use to shoot it. Pitting might not look good, but it'll do. You can lap that out if they are shallow as well. Just don't lap too much and make sides too thin.

Another crucial area is the frog and related areas. First of all, frog mating surfaces should be pitting/rust/paint/gunk/rough machining free. It's the part where frog mates with the base. And the frog bed where plane iron sits. Some pitting on that surface are ok. What's important is the bed is flat and square to the sides. You'll have to lap it flat, but don't need to lap pits out if they are only sporadically placed.

Personally I would get a new cap iron, but if you want to use that one, you'll have to make sure the lip of the cap iron is flat and smooth. If there is any pitting, you'll have to get rid of it, so it'll contact the blade solidly. Otherwise it'll clog with wood. From the pictures, looks like big chunk of rust coming off from the cap iron, if it's badly pitted and or became thin after de-rusting, it might be more practical to get a new cap iron than trying to salvage the old one. Stock cap iron is thin anyway, new replacement cap irons are thicker and will be an improvement in performance.

[curtis rosche]

which one is the cap iron?

[Sam Takeuchi]

Cap iron = chip breaker

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hey Dominic, your 607 just about needs a new blade!

[curtis rosche]

ok, so i soak it in vinegar. can i let it sit in the vinegar for 2 days while im not home?

[Dominic Greco]

Hey Dominic, your 607 just about needs a new blade!

Yeah, I know. But it still has a good amount of "meat" left. And if it's lasted this long (100 years+) who am I to ditch it? :D

[Dominic Greco]

ok, so i soak it in vinegar. can i let it sit in the vinegar for 2 days while im not home?

Curtis,
I'm not sure if Vinegar (That's Acetic Acid, right you Chem guys?) is strong enough to really harm it if left in for more than one night. But I'd be one of those people to err on the side of caution and NOT leave it soak for more than one night.

I notice what looks like a lathe in the back ground. If so, do you have a MT drill chuck for this? You know, one that installs in the Morse Taper in the headstock? If you do, then you have one of the handiest tools for rust removal and cleaning at your disposal. All you need is a brass wire wheel brush from Home Depot or Lowes. Be sure to buy the one with the mandrel. They have them in the Tool Department. I install one in my lathe, using the drill chuck to hold it and them set the lathe on a nice slow speed. With this I can clean every single metal part of a plane. I used to solely use this method before I discovered Evaporust. One thing, wear a dust mask. That is, unless you ENJOY rust colored boogers!:D:rolleyes:

[curtis rosche]

yeah, thats my 1930 something lathe. i have a chuck and a jacobs chuck for it. and i wire wheeled the out side of the plane body. but i couldnt get into the grooves on the bottom withot pushing hard, and that pits the matal a little more. also wire brushing the top is hard because of all the different surfaces. also, i have to be extra careful with the wire wheel because i cut my finger off today last month. it hasnt fully healed yet. and if i meesed it up the doctor would kill what left of me after my parents were done.
i did forget the dust mask yesterday. it leaves a funny smell in your nose for sure

[David Keller NC]

"also, i have to be extra careful with the wire wheel because i cut my finger off today last month. it hasnt fully healed yet."

Yikes! Well, at least with planes and handsaws you've little worry about a repeat experience, though that's not true of all hand tools - chisels and carving gouges can do a great deal of damage if not used carefully.

Regarding leaving metal parts in vinegar - you're safe on this one. Acetic acid has to be considerably stronger than as supplied in household vinegar to do significant damage to steel. That doesn't mean I'd leave it in the solution any longer than needed (a few weeks might not be so good), though.

[curtis rosche]

well, i got the metal as clean as i could. there is no rust on it and there are only a couple dark spots because i didnt quite get all of the paint off, but it just looks like it was heavily oiled. i cleaned all the knobs and bolts and holes. i didnt do anything to the front wooden knob. it looks fine to me just a few scratches and a little dusty, just lightly sand and refinish? and the tote, is there an easiser way to get the paint off other than a paint remover?

[dan sherman]

try evapo-rust to get the rust off. You can get a gallon for $20 at HF. It's great stuff non-toxic, reusable, and won't even hurt the japanning.

[David Keller NC]

"and the tote, is there an easiser way to get the paint off other than a paint remover?"

Unfortunately, it's difficult to remove paint off of antique stanley plane knobs and totes without removing the original finish (thought that may not be important to you). Because Stanely's laquer formulations are soluble in denatured alcohol and laquer thinner, neither will remove the paint without also removing the finish.

Potentially, you could try mineral spirits. Some older paint formulations are marginally soluble in paint thinner (mineral spirits), but the laquer on Stanley planes is not.

[curtis rosche]

well, i will just put it in the dna i already have for turning. i am going to use waterlox to refinish the tote and knob.

is there any use for the old blade? is the steel good for a scraper or a knife?

[Jim Koepke]

is there any use for the old blade? is the steel good for a scraper or a knife?

It depends on how bad the rust and pitting have gotten to it. I do use them for scraping and have made a marking knife from an old plane blade.

Then again, not much is thrown out in my world, even stuff that should be.

jim

[David Keller NC]

"is there any use for the old blade? is the steel good for a scraper or a knife?"

There's lots of things you can do with the old blade. If you know a blacksmith, many of these older blades are cast steel, which makes very good tools.

[curtis rosche]

do the other markings on the plane mean anything, or are they just run numbers?