"Fixing" panels in a frame... ?

[David Rose]

I depend of my wood movement calcutor for most cross grain movement. As many say, "longitudinal movement, along the grain, is negligible". What exactly does "negligible" mean? My calculator does not show it, of course.

I am building several 9 to 14" wide by 15" tall cherry panels that will go into a frame. This is for a blanket chest so no doors will be slamming or anything like that. I am out of space balls, and find the idea of nailing in panels a little inelegant. Is that a word? :eek:

I have with smaller panels simply put a spot of glue at the top and bottom center of the panels. My concern is that 15" (vertically, with the grain) might expand/contract enough break the top or bottom glue bond. I know yellow glue has some creep and therefore maybe a little give. Am I asking for trouble doing this?

David

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

You can make your own 'spaceballs' with a dab of hot melt glue.

KC

[David Rose]

Kirk, I've also heard of using silicone caulk. Hot melt glue would be quicker. It just seems (I've not tried it, so...) awfully rigid.

David


You can make your own 'spaceballs' with a dab of hot melt glue.

KC

[Steve Clardy]

Hmmm. Get you a sheet of wax paper and a tube of silicone. Lay down some 1/4" long beads and let dry. Cook till done, then taste and salt to suit.
Oops, got off track there David. Guess it's feeding time. Ha
Silicone works for me when I run out of space balls, though not to often as I buy them by the 1000. Expensive little buggers aren't they?
Steve

[Jamie Buxton]

David --
Here's a couple ideas...

1) In antique furniture, I occasionally have seen a wooden peg driven through the back of the frame members, only at the long-grain ends of the panels. (This might be a little more elegant than the nails you don't want to use, but serves the same function.) If you're a fan of exposed joinery and pegged M&T joints, you could peg the panels from the front.

or

2) Glue the panels into the frame, but only for the middle few inches. The sides of the panel get to breathe in and out. (Structurally, this is pretty similar to solution 1 above, but uses glue instead of pegs.) Don't bother with space balls; the old guys built lots of floating panels without 'em. If you nail down the middle of the panel, the only thing the space balls are doing is to maybe stop rattles when you slam a door. In your chest, as you say, there won't be a lot of slamming.

As for expansion, the long-grain expansion is really negligable. Furthermore, the frame member parallel to the panel's grain direction is also long-grain -- that is, it is going to be expanding the same as the panel.

Jamie

[Jeremy Griffith]

David,

I always used the beading that you put in screens with. I did this for a long time before I broke down and bought space balls. It has a fair amount of give to it and will compact enough to absorb the effect of any expansion. I don't put it the whole way around the panel. I just cut it in small chunks and put it in the same way you do space balls. It works great and I never had a panel or frame split from using it.

Jeremy

[Dale Thompson]

David,
The only "space ball" I can think of is my head. :confused: Anyway, on raised panel doors, I like to use the the "peg" idea. It makes me look like an old-time craftsman. Actually, I'm old but I'm certainly NOT a craftsman. A 1/8" peg in the middle of the vertical grain of the panel and another in the middle of the panel does a nice job for me. The panel is held in both the horizontal and vertical directions. Pegs are also "cheap". If "rattle" is a problem, a piece of one of those little felt dots stuffed into the gap will disappear and solve the problem.

Lastly, "negligible" means virtually ZERO! You've heard the old saying about, "I cut it off twice and it's STILL too short". Try cutting your panel off short and then wait for it to grow. Don't hold your breath. ;)

You've gotten some good input, bud. Mine is just another opinion from an old guy who can't afford "space balls" - whatever THEY are. :eek:

Dale T.

[Greg Heppeard]

David,

How soon do you need the space balls?? I can send some to ya, at least enough to get your job done. In order for the corner of the panels to meet right, you need to keep your spacing the same on all four sides of the panel. If you make the panel too long, the corner of your cope in the panel looks narrow at the top and bottom. The dowel idea will work, too.

[David Rose]

Steve, let me get through with this piece of grilled corn on the cob. Yes, they are expensive. ...back to the burger...

Jamie, duh... on the frame/panel grain direction. I think you answered that question. :rolleyes: I thought about pegs but couldn't "see" it through the thumbnail cut on the rails.

Jeremy, that is an interesting idea. I'll look at it next time I hit the borg.

Dale... oh yeah Dale... I did not really expect you to understand "spaceballs". I think they were invented in the 20th century. ...that is after the year 1900... When I post a question, I do not ever expect a response from folks who have no idea what I am talking about. Spaceballs are little foam balls designed to take up space. Hence they are called "spaceballs". Catchy huh? And I don't mean that you can't *try* to reply to my advanced (for you) posts. Making comments is as good a way to learn as asking questions... if you listen to the responses. As for the "peg the panel" idea, are you intending the end to come through where it shows? Do you know how teeny that thumbnail area is? I have an idea that you are going to suggest putting a 1/2" peg through that 3/16" area. And yes, I have more than one board growing in the shop right now. If you water them, they will grow. Ask anyone here. I thought maybe Miracle Grow would do even better, so I am really socking it to it. Is that green color mold???

Greg, I really hate to get you involved in a post with Dale. I mean... there's nothing wrong (did I say that?) with the OLD guy, but... Do you sell space balls or is this from your own stock? I'm needing to get to Tulsa soon anyway. This groove is pretty small. I can't remember what they offer, but these will need to fit into a groove about 3/16". If you sell them, I may get there in time. If they are from your private stock, many many thanks. :) If I can't get there soon, I'll probably just try the hot glue. Thanks for the tip on the spacing too. I had a feeling that was the case, though it hasn't happened to me yet. :D

All: (don't know about Dale) Since no one suggested my "glue idea" I suspect that is not a number one choice. Thanks.

David

[Wes Bischel]

Lots of neat ideas and yet, I can't help thinking of Mel Brooks. :rolleyes:

Wes

[Mark Singer]

Lots of neat ideas and yet, I can't help thinking of Mel Brooks. :rolleyes:

WesMy favorite "2000 year old man":eek:

[Greg Heppeard]

David,

We sell them, but I was going to send you a few from my private stash...I probably have about a thousand or so, left from my commercial shop days. I use them once in a while, but can spare a few.

[Dale Thompson]

Dale... oh yeah Dale... I did not really expect you to understand "spaceballs". I think they were invented in the 20th century. ...that is after the year 1900... When I post a question, I do not ever expect a response from folks who have no idea what I am talking about. Spaceballs are little foam balls designed to take up space. Hence they are called "spaceballs". Catchy huh? And I don't mean that you can't *try* to reply to my advanced (for you) posts. Making comments is as good a way to learn as asking questions... if you listen to the responses. As for the "peg the panel" idea, are you intending the end to come through where it shows? Do you know how teeny that thumbnail area is? I have an idea that you are going to suggest putting a 1/2" peg through that 3/16" area. And yes, I have more than one board growing in the shop right now. If you water them, they will grow. Ask anyone here. I thought maybe Miracle Grow would do even better, so I am really socking it to it. Is that green color mold???
David

David,
You have hurt me deeply. I am a very sensitive person you know. No more free "space balls" for you!! :p

The pegs are SUPPOSED to show on the inside of the door. That's the "crafty" part of it. Just trim them off with one of those flexible saws with no tooth rake on one side. SHAZAM! No "space balls" required! :)

You guys in Arkansas are really something. You can make wood grow WITH THE GRAIN!! DAVID: Woodworking 101 - You should cut the tree down BEFORE you make your cabinet doors!!

You claim that you were actually EATING a cob of corn. I thought that all the corn down your way went into those big copper cookers hidden out in the back forty to fool the revenuers!? ;)

Dale T. :cool:

[David Rose]

Greg, this chest has 9 panels (54 spaceballs?) with grooves of .160" or 5/32". This is using the mini rail/stile set that I'm still trying to get lined out. Do you guys carry a spaceball that should work in that dimension? I wouldn't mind buying a few from you (or your personal stash) if you have some that would work.

David


David,

We sell them, but I was going to send you a few from my private stash...I probably have about a thousand or so, left from my commercial shop days. I use them once in a while, but can spare a few.

[David Rose]

Dale, I am so sorry. Here I go again hurting your feelings. :( You nawthun guys sure have thin skins. :eek: But U B OK in my book. Hope I don't offend any *real* people up there. That is not my intention.

And yeah, I know what a flush cutting saw is. I even have one. :rolleyes:
Oh, sorry (again). Let's back up... Dale, they call those saws that cut on one side a "flush cutting saw". I have one. Thank you for suggesting that. Is that better?

Wood comes from trees??? Get real! That's like saying that milk comes from cows instead of bottles or cartons. I thought all you people "up there" understood basic things like that. If you will listen to me (for a change) I'll 'splain stuff like that to ya. psssst! Wood comes from saw mills. I think they make it from old news papers.

Nope! We eat corn ourselves. Copper hopper first, cows second, then we get our share. We quit trying to fool the revenuers years ago. Now we pay 'em off with the white stuff. That is when sugar is not too high. :)

David the nonrepentant


David,
You have hurt me deeply. I am a very sensitive person you know. No more free "space balls" for you!! :p

The pegs are SUPPOSED to show on the inside of the door. That's the "crafty" part of it. Just trim them off with one of those flexible saws with no tooth rake on one side. SHAZAM! No "space balls" required! :)

You guys in Arkansas are really something. You can make wood grow WITH THE GRAIN!! DAVID: Woodworking 101 - You should cut the tree down BEFORE you make your cabinet doors!!

You claim that you were actually EATING a cob of corn. I thought that all the corn down your way went into those big copper cookers hidden out in the back forty to fool the revenuers!? ;)

Dale T. :cool:

[Greg Heppeard]

David,

Guess what...they are for quarter inch stuff, both at home and at work. You could do what we used to do at the first shop I worked at...use surgical tubing (very small) or use a foam insert. All it's there for is to keep the panel from rattling around and give it room to expand. I just had a thought :eek: maybe you could use some non-expanding spray foam and just put small dots in for the cushion. That way it keeps the panel from rattling and let's it expand when it wants to.

[David Rose]

Oh, well... Thanks for the offer. I really appreciate it. The hotglue is probably as easy an idea as any.

David with visions of foam pouring out of all the crevices... :D


David,

Guess what...they are for quarter inch stuff, both at home and at work. You could do what we used to do at the first shop I worked at...use surgical tubing (very small) or use a foam insert. All it's there for is to keep the panel from rattling around and give it room to expand. I just had a thought :eek: maybe you could use some non-expanding spray foam and just put small dots in for the cushion. That way it keeps the panel from rattling and let's it expand when it wants to.