GE Service Warning

[Mike Henderson]

I'll pass this story along in case any of you encounter the same thing - so you won't be shocked as I was.

I have a GE side-by-side refrigerator and it started icing in the freezer section - ice was running down the sides. So I call GE Service and they tell me the service call will be $100 (rounded). The guy comes in, opens the freezer and says, "Yep, there's ice. You need an ice kit."

After some discussion, he discloses that the "ice kit" is about $900. To say I was surprised is to put it mildly, and I was somewhat at a loss for words.

I pay the guy the $100 and after he leaves, I do some research on the web. Looking at the operation of the defrost, it seems to me that the most likely cause is a "tray heater" which sells for about $60. If I add $100 for labor to install it, we're in the ballpark of what I expected the repair to cost.

The more I think about this, the more upset I get. Here's my major complaints:

1. The service technician did nothing to find the failing part. He just looked in the freezer and said, "You need an ice kit". I told them when I ordered the service that there was ice in the freezer, running down the sides, so they could have told me at that time about the "ice kit". There was no need for me to pay $100 to have the technician verify my observation.

2. I object to putting in a "kit" when there's likely only one failed part. Putting in a kit is just putting a cost on the owner so the technician doesn't have to do any diagnostic work.

They could argue that, if one part failed, the others might be ready to fail. But that's a decision for me to make, not for them to force onto me. I may decide I'm willing to take the chance. If it fails again, I'll pay more but if it doesn't fail, I saved some money. But it's my decision to make, not theirs.

To add insult to injury, after the guy left, I took a hair dryer and defrosted the ice. Since then, it hasn't iced up again. So maybe the drain got blocked and my defrosting it cleared it. Only time will tell.

So if you need service from GE, make sure you come to an understanding with the service tech before you allow him/her into the house.

Mike

[Eric Larsen]

Mike, went though this two months ago.

Ended up paying $300 for a $20 solenoid so it would make ice again. General Electric can [censored, censored, censored, censored.]

If it breaks again, I'm going to replace it with a brand that isn't out to unfairly chisel their customers. Everyone in this development has GE refrigerators, and ALL OF US have similar stories about the ice system. Every single one of us.

To heck with GE. Next time, Sub-Zero.

[Greg Cole]

I had GE try to hoodwink me on a dryer. $100 service call (mandatory fee I was told) even though the dryer was not even a month old.
The part would be replaced under warranty, labor was out of pocket.... (calling a local appliance repair shop & 3 minutes on the phone diagnosed it). I ordered a replacement valve for $45.00 from the appliance repair shop and ordered a spare as the guy at the repair shop said they fail "occasionally" & still came out ahead. The GE brand of said valve was something like $250.00 (not too mention the aftermarket brand valve has been in service for 7 years now).
I'll never give GE a nickel for another appliance, part nor service.

[Wes Bischel]

Mike,
I feel for you - and have had a similar experience only with the servicing of our boiler. Seems many servicing companies have a policy of not "taking into consideration the customer's amateur diagnostics." I guess it's a nice way of saying they ignore the customer and need to look at it themselves. Allows them to make more calls per day.
In your case I think I would be calling the management and demanding my money back. $1000 for a repair - at least half the value of the unit is ridiculous. You should have been informed about that before they scheduled the appointment. Then again, they probably make more money on these false calls than we might think.

I hope the unit keeps working - at least long enough for you to have time to pick out a new one.:rolleyes:
Of course, this is one reason we have our 1946 Philco in the basement.:D
Wes

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

Did you order and install the heater? Did that fix the problem?

Was the service guy an employee of GE or was it a local contractor? Did you report your dissatisfaction with someone with the company?

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.repair2000.com

This is a great site for DIYers like most of us who read this forum. I've saved a fair amount of dough fixing things myself by posting there.

I had a Maytag refrigerator (will never buy Maytag again) that had an ice problem as well. After following advice from the above site, I measured a few things with my ohmmeter and figured out my defrost heater had died...I picked up a new one for $35 and was on my way.

Later on, I noticed my oven cooking funny. I figured out that the lower burner element had died...followed advice from site...measured some resistance...ordered new lower burner for $60...oven is back to normal.

The guy who runs the above site KNOWS his stuff...no doubt about it...and he answers all questions and so far, he has been dead nuts on for all my issues.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,

Did you order and install the heater? Did that fix the problem?

Was the service guy an employee of GE or was it a local contractor? Did you report your dissatisfaction with someone with the company?
Ken, since the freezer has not "frozen over" since I defrosted it, I'm waiting to order the part. I've studied the manual and feel pretty confident I can replace the part, if it comes to that.

The service rep, as far as I know and could tell, is a GE Service employee.

I did send GE an e-mail with the same information I posted and was contacted by a representative this morning. He was absolutely unwilling to do anything for me. But at the same time, he could give no justification for installing a "kit" instead of just replacing the failing part.

I intend to escalate my complaint to higher levels but I'm not optimistic. I told them I'd only communicate with them in writing (either e-mail or snail mail) from now on because of the attitude of the representative that spoke to me. I'm not optimistic that anything will be done, and that's why I posted here.

Chris - thanks for that pointer, I'll check it out.

Mike

[Bonnie Campbell]

Seems to be the thing for companies anymore, making shoddy appliances. I've an frost free up right Whirlpool freezer, and I'll never buy another. The design of the drain hole for the self defrost is set up so it plugs up. After one service call where we lost a freezer full of game meats (By the way, WAS still under warranty and I'll give Whirlpool credit, they did pay for what was lost, that time), that time some relay switch had never even been hooked up at the factory. Second time we called another service guy, he said that all their freezers have the bad drain. So the third time it started building up ice I went ahead (after eyeballing what the service guy had done before) thawed it myself and bent the tinfoil lip to the drain. Now the water ices up in the bottom and I can just bust it out with a screw driver when it starts building up. Before it would back up into the coils so it required a complete thawing. I'll be selling this piece of junk as soon as I can find someone desperate enough to buy it, WITH an explanation of the problem. I'll stick to a chest freezer from now on.

As for the Whirlpool refrigerator, I won't even get started on that piece of junk. I WON'T be buying any Whirlpool brand appliance again, I know that!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

For future reference, I recommend Repairclinic.com. They have a self diagnostic program. You can also email them to diagnose the problem, then order the part from them.

They also have exploded views of many appliance types and brands. I own GE and Maytag products, so I use Repairclinic.com often. :)

-Jeff :)

[Brent Ring]

I buy my appliances at Costco. If something goes wrong - I just take it back and they replace it - No questions asked. I have had some washer and dryer problems and they keep swapping them out - it is a bit inconvienient, but I only have the cost of my time and gas.

[Rick Moyer]

If it only happened once and has not re-occurred, is it possible that the freezer door was not shut properly?

[Mike Henderson]

If it only happened once and has not re-occurred, is it possible that the freezer door was not shut properly?
I thought about that, Rick. I did have this happen once before and after I defrosted it I didn't have the problem again for more than a year. At that time, I wrote it off to leaving the door open.

This time, I really checked and while I can't be absolutely sure, I don't think I left the door open.

But in any case, that's even more reason for the service technician to do a better job of diagnosis. You can imagine how pi**ed I'd be if there were NO failing parts and the problem was just leaving the door ajar (and I paid $1,000).

If the door was the problem, I'd gladly pay the $100 and kick myself for leaving it open.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Let me add a fairness comment. The refrigerator is about 15 years old and has worked well up to now. So having a service call in 15 years is not something I see as a problem.

What I do have a problem with is the approach of GE Service in trying to make this a $1,000 service call, when it probably should be a less than $200 service call.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

Laugh if you want, but my "go-to" people for appliance repair is Sears. (I won't shop in their stores, but that's a completely separate issue.) They change supplier brands for "Kenmore" often enough that their guys are fairly savvy regardless of what you actually have in your house.

Symptoms identical to yours on a similar vintage GE, guy was in and out in about 45 minutes, new heater installed, about $140 total. (This was several years ago, I'd expect it to be higher now.)

[John Fricke]

The problem I've had with factory technicians, you call and describe the problem, tech comes out makes his own diagnosis and of course doesn't have the right part. He then orders the part and comes back wanting to charge another service call. We have a local repair guy, self employed I try to use whenever possible. I can describe the problem to him over the phone and normally he has the correct part for the repair when he arrives. If he didn't happen to get the correct part he doesn't charge extra to return.

[phil harold]

Well dont go out and buy a new one yet and if you do dont buy Whirlpool who owns kithen aid, maytag, amana, and afew others.
with all this enrgy star ratings manufactures are making compressors chaeaper and smaller and then they give out if the coils get dusty on frig / freezer. Then it is not covered by warranty if the coils are dusty

and lets not even mention my maytag neptune (leaks Mold/mildew, and circutboard replacements) with the class action suit I was offered 100 off on the next maytag I bought with in the next year

the stove...

/rant

[Chris Kennedy]

Laugh if you want, but my "go-to" people for appliance repair is Sears. (I won't shop in their stores, but that's a completely separate issue.) They change supplier brands for "Kenmore" often enough that their guys are fairly savvy regardless of what you actually have in your house.


I won't laugh. I am not a wild fan of Sears as a store, but I have always found their service techs to be very good. Honestly, can't complain.

Cheers,

Chris

[Eddie Watkins]

I've had good service from Sears, they are a little pricy but results have been good.
I buy a GE product about once every ten years then I remember why I swore never to buy another GE product ever.

[Al Willits]

Mike,
I feel for you - and have had a similar experience only with the servicing of our boiler. Seems many servicing companies have a policy of not "taking into consideration the customer's amateur diagnostics." I guess it's a nice way of saying they ignore the customer and need to look at it themselves. Allows them to make more calls per day.
In your case I think I would be calling the management and demanding my money back. $1000 for a repair - at least half the value of the unit is ridiculous. You should have been informed about that before they scheduled the appointment. Then again, they probably make more money on these false calls than we might think.

I hope the unit keeps working - at least long enough for you to have time to pick out a new one.:rolleyes:
Of course, this is one reason we have our 1946 Philco in the basement.:D
Wes


Hate to burst your bubble, but servicers rarely take customers diagnostics as fact, way to many wrong parts and the servicer then has to deal with all them wrong parts then.
Customer are more often wrong, way more often.

So, they don't know if you've been in a related field for 30+ years or just some guy who thinks he knows what's wrong, so they come see for themselves.

They should listen to what you have to say and use that in diagnosing the problem, customers usually are pretty good at giving clues as what's wrong.

If they come and get the wrong part ordered, that's another matter.
But with todays electronics and ever changing updates and models, it gets harder and harder to get it right, factories aren't always open or correct with technical info too, that makes matters worse.

I don't know the model you have, but I'm betting GE probably has a update on it, their updates on frost or ice in the fresh food or freezer section goes on page after page.

The last I heard, GE is still trying to get out of the appliance game, those in the field say its because of poor products, who knows.

Al

[Eric Larsen]

Mike, went though this two months ago.

Ended up paying $300 for a $20 solenoid so it would make ice again. General Electric can [censored, censored, censored, censored.]

If it breaks again, I'm going to replace it with a brand that isn't out to unfairly chisel their customers. Everyone in this development has GE refrigerators, and ALL OF US have similar stories about the ice system. Every single one of us.

To heck with GE. Next time, Sub-Zero.


Guess what?

Take a wild [censored] guess what just happened????



My ice dispensing system just failed in the exact same way again -- 24 days after their oh, so generous 30-day service warranty expired.


I HATE GENERAL ELECTRIC APPLIANCES. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I hope they build their [censored] nuclear reactors with a little more care than they build their [censored] refrigerators.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Guess what?

I hope they build their [censored] nuclear reactors with a little more care than they build their [censored] refrigerators.

Each of the GE companies are run as totally independent companies.

[Rich Stewart]

I checked the BBB after I bought a GE fridge. Something in the neighborhood of 30,000 complaints just on the refirdgerators. It has been my understanding GE is now making appliances that will last for just over a year. Builders buy them for new houses and all they want is for them to work for the warrantee period on the house. Bought a Maytag before this one and the door warped. The service guy told me 800 bucks to fix it. Are there any appliances that ARE worth anything?

[Wes Bischel]

Al,
Understood - but in my case a power vent for a boiler - bearings went bad - one part number for the whole assembly. I don't expect them to take my diagnostics as fact, but I do expect them to at least listen especially when not doing so would leave me without heat for three days. Sorry Al, no bubble to burst here.

Wes

[Mike Henderson]

To prevent this from becoming a GE bashing thread, let me again say that my GE referigerator has been a good unit. It's about 15 years old so I don't mind having one service call in 15 years.

My complaint is that the service guy did not do any diagnostics but simply recommended a very expensive "icing kit" when there's probably only one failing part. Basically, he threw the expense on me, so that he wouldn't have to do any diagnostic work.

A kit makes sense when it's very inexpensive, such as a carburetor kit (for those of you old enough to remember carburetors), because as long as you're taking it apart, you just as well change everything. But those carburetor kits were less than $20, not $900.

Mike

[Dustin Lane]

I've had some bad luck with our Whirlpool duet washer. They put a filter in front of the water pump but then didn't tell anyone about it. It doesn't show up anywhere in the owners manual and is hidden behind the front kick panel with no label so it seems clear they don't want you to know about it. Seems like a repair trap to me. Washer throws an error code and so you have to call a service tech to come fix what is nothing more than removing three screws and emptying a filter. Unfortunately it seems the water pump ran dry too long and burnt up so that needs to be replaced. The part is $50 from ebay. 5 times that from a repairman + labor. DIY rules all.

[Eric Larsen]

It's about 15 years old so I don't mind having one service call in 15 years.


I think that's the operative sentence. Me and 10 neighbors have had more than 25 service calls in 14 months. All with the same ice-maker problems. There have been flooded freezers, no ice, no crushed ice, flooded floors, burnt-out ice makers, etc.

I'm on my second ice-maker and my third solenoid.

Perhaps we ALL got refrigerators from a horribly-made batch. It wouldn't surprise me. But I think I have every right to have an axe to grind with the GE appliance division.

Whenever I talk with my neighbors, conversation invariably turns to the [censored] ice maker.

EDIT -- Every time the technician comes calling, he tries to sell me a $600 extended service contract. I want no part of that. I'll take the $600 and put it towards a refrigerator that will last more than four months without a malfunction. This time was it was free. I called GE and politely read them the riot act. Next time it involves more money, I'll replace it. What a waste.

[Mike Henderson]

Eric - I wasn't throwing stones at you. I just wanted to note that I'm only complaining about GE Service, since I'm the one who started all this.

Maybe I didn't word it properly. sorry.

Mike

[Eric Larsen]

Eric - I wasn't throwing stones at you. I just wanted to note that I'm only complaining about GE Service, since I'm the one who started all this.

Maybe I didn't word it properly. sorry.

Mike


No worries, it's all good.

But I do feel a bit of a responsibility to tell people here how frustrated I am with GE.

I'm having a similar conversation with a woman on another forum whose 'fridge flooded her basement. Same problem I've had, and all my neighbors have had as well. I'm lucky in that I don't have a basement. Otherwise I'd be in the same boat. She's reported tens of thousands of dollars of damage. And it's the same part that has plagued me.

My refrigerator was assembled in [country that doesn't have a good record of quality control], made with parts that are made in [country that also doesn't have a good record of quality control.]

These appliances came with the house. I didn't really want them, but they were essentially "free." If I had it to do again, I would kick these appliances to the curb and install better appliances. I firmly believe that if I had sold these appliances as "basically new" on Craigslist and used the money to purchase more reliable equipment it would be worth it.

But we had thousands of dollars of work to do, and kitchen appliances were near the bottom of our list. If we knew what we know now, we would have swapped it all out.

[Al Willits]

Al,
Understood - but in my case a power vent for a boiler - bearings went bad - one part number for the whole assembly. I don't expect them to take my diagnostics as fact, but I do expect them to at least listen especially when not doing so would leave me without heat for three days. Sorry Al, no bubble to burst here.

Wes

I think I mentioned the listening part, but many electrical parts can not be returned and depending on the size of the servicer, doesn't take to many eaten parts to chew up profits.
Just trying to show you their side.

Just wondering why three days for a common part, unless you have some sort of specilized boiler?

Al

[Mike Cutler]

Just to add a little balance here, I had my first ever warranty service a few months back.
We had purchased an obsolete, floor model, Sub Zero refrigerator from Percy's in Worcester Mass. It came with the remainder of the factory warranty, and an extended warranty.
We got the 'fridge home, plugged it in and it was not working. Called Percy's and they sent a repair tech out the next business day. Long story short, either the unit had never been charged, or lost it sitting on the floor for so many years in the demo mode.
When the repair tech came out he called Sub Zero and gave them the serial# for the unit to get the warranty authorized and they told him the warranty was expired on that the unit in Oklahoma:eek:. The Tech worked through the issue with Sub Zero, as clearly the unit was sitting in my kitchen in Connecticut,and had been purchased 3 days prior in Mass. He ultimately replaced the evaporator, cooling coil, and condensor, as all of these parts had outstanding issues with this particular model, and then he charged the unit. Basically he rebuilt the unit in our kitchen.
Point being that the tech could have just thrown a charge in it and called it a day, but he didn't. He took the time and initiative to make everything right.
There are good techs, and companies out there.

PS
Eric
Yes, GE apparently makes better reactors than appliances. I've been working on their reactors and turbines for 25+ years.;)

[Bonnie Campbell]

I think a big point IS the service technicians themselves. Are they good enough to go the extra mile to help out getting warranties straight.

The first tech we had out on the upright freezer said he would say the freezer was defective if he got a cut of the money paid for the food that went bad. Needless to say HE will never step foot in this house again. I went a head and got all the info together without him and turned in the claim. And I DID let the appliance store about his tactic, so he wasn't getting anymore referrals.

[Mike Henderson]

Just to let everyone know how this came out.

I finally was able to get into GE and contacted Kelly Johnson, Program Manager, Executive Consumer Relations via e-mail. After I explained the situation to him, he did some checking and then replied that he would refund the money for the service call.

But it took some real work on my part to find the right person. The first line customer service people just would not do *anything* to respond to my complaints.

And on the refrigerator, I ordered a part through the web and installed it. I don't know if that fixed the problem yet because it takes several weeks for the ice to build up. But I know the parts that make up the defrost "system" and will install them one at a time until I fix the problem.

Even if I replace every part in the defrost system, it would only cost me a couple hundred dollars - compared to the $1,000 they wanted to charge me. And if I'm lucky, it'll be less than $100.

I doubt if I'll call GE for service again, however.

Mike

[Frank Hagan]

If its any consolation, a $100 service call doesn't pay for itself from the company's standpoint. Our burdened cost for a factory service tech was $135 per hour IF we had him fully utilized (which they almost never were, unless they were on a 8 hour job). That's why I managed the transition to sub contractors with two national companies.

Independent service companies use a lower overhead structure, so they can charge from $80 to $125 and "make money" (not really; they pay their wage but rarely have any profit, the same problem a lot of woodworking shops have).

It may not be easy to tell which part of the defrost system is the culprit. I have no idea about refrigerators, but let's say that's the case for argument's sake. So let's say he charges you the minimum $100 to diagnose one part ... like you did ... and then another service call of $100 plus the install labor cost plus the cost of the part when it comes in. Then, you find out it really is another part of the defrost system, so they evaluate it (another $100 service call, plus install labor, plus part). Two weeks later, the same thing happens. About the third service call and the consumer is totally frustrated, he's spent $600 to $700 and the problem keeps recurring. Two more parts and you're easily above the $1000 kit.

That's a scenario I've seen played out on warranty calls time and time again. Its why we would replace "kits" rather than diagnosing down the part level on warranty calls. The goal was to solve it on the first call if possible, and if not, the return call for sure. The initial part cost was higher, but repeated service calls (and the un-calculated cost of customer dissatisfaction) were always worse.

Every now and then we'd get a fresh new MBA who would try to save money by limiting warranty to "system level parts only", and warranty costs would rise. I finally started suggesting they go out on service calls, and that would completely change their viewpoint.

You could have gotten a bad tech, and GE may make lousy products, so I'm not challenging what you guys are saying. I am just trying to provide a different perspective from someone who has managed national service fleets and consumer products for the past 25 years.

[Mike Henderson]

I've thought through some of what you point out. I have no objection to paying $100 for the tech to come out and diagnose the problem. But he didn't do any thing except look in the freezer and see the ice.

There's a limited number of things that can go wrong in the defrost system and a small amount of diagnosis can isolate down fairly quickly. For example, there are two heaters in the freezer section which are used to defrost the unit. Getting to them is difficult, but the tech doesn't have to physically get to them. The defrost timer is readily available (about two screws) and there are wires running from the defrost timer to each of the heaters (there has to be so that the timer can turn the heaters on and off). A simple Ohm test will tell him if either is not working.

I also object to paying an enormous sum in order to minimize the possibility of a call back for the tech - it's his/her business to be able to properly diagnose these kinds of problems. The reason we call a trained tech is because the tech is supposed to be able to figure out what's wrong. For example, the most likely failure part is the drain trough heater, which is $80 from GE and about $50 from another parts supplier (but genuine GE part). That's a lot less expensive than the $525 they wanted to charge me for parts - a kit of everything associated with the defrost system plus the defrost timer.

Also, the total labor would be almost $400. It was $100 for the first "diagnostic" call, then an additional $100 for the second home visit, plus $190 for "labor" to install the kit.

I take my car in for service and I can count on one hand the number of times I had a bill that equaled what they wanted to charge me for repairing my refrigerator (about $1,000 total, with tax added). If the dealer took the same approach, when I had an engine problem, they'd want to change the engine because some other part might go bad, or they couldn't diagnose what was wrong. And while the appliance company has to pay for the truck, the auto dealer has the cost of the space for the shop, and carries a full line of parts (or has quick access to a full line of parts from a wholesaler). Both have the challenge of keeping their technicians fully busy. I doubt if the appliance repair company has significantly higher overhead than an auto dealer.

Maybe I'm cheap, but that appears to me to be grossly excessive charges.

Here's what I think is reasonable. The first guy comes in and diagnoses the problem. That means he runs tests that isolate down to the failing part(s). He orders the parts and comes back to install them. I'll pay $100 for the diagnosis and an additional $100 for the labor to install the parts. I'll even pay the excessive price for the parts because it's part of the deal.

I'd expect the parts to be no more than about $100, and with two $100 labor charges, the total should not exceed $300. That would be reasonable to me.

After this episode, I went and looked at new refrigerators. A very good refrigerator can be purchased for about $2,000 or maybe just a bit more. That's generally a top end refrigerator, not a low end economy refrigerator. Paying half of new to repair an old refrigerator is too much.

BTW, I went on the web and found the icing kit, which would make up about $450 of the $525 in parts, for $160. I ordered it and will install it myself.

As I said, maybe I'm cheap, but I was shocked and dismayed at the cost and the way it was handled.

Mike

[And if the service tech installed a part and it didn't fix the problem I would not expect to pay for another service call and labor to install additional parts. I'd pay for the parts but not the labor because s/he should have done a better job of diagnosing the problem in the first place. If I pay for more service calls and install labor, the tech has *no* incentive to fix the problem the first time. They'll make more by doing things wrong. Their motto should be "We fix it right the first time or you don't pay."]

[Tell me where I'm being unreasonable, if you think I am.]

[glenn bradley]

I maintain a whole house warranty. It was part of the deal when I originally bought the house and I was not going to re-up after the first year. A buddy talked me into giving it one more year. I have re-upped every year since and it has always paid for itself; dishwasher motor one year, fridge another year. Always little things but service calls are expensive even before the things get fixed. I hope my air conditioner explodes as it is too old to fix and will have to be replaced.

[Frank Hagan]

[And if the service tech installed a part and it didn't fix the problem I would not expect to pay for another service call and labor to install additional parts. I'd pay for the parts but not the labor because s/he should have done a better job of diagnosing the problem in the first place. If I pay for more service calls and install labor, the tech has *no* incentive to fix the problem the first time. They'll make more by doing things wrong. Their motto should be "We fix it right the first time or you don't pay."]

[Tell me where I'm being unreasonable, if you think I am.]

No, I don't think you are unreasonable. I think that's how everyone feels, including me. If he replaces a part, and that doesn't fix it, you want him to return with the right part and fix it, with no charge for the labor. Everyone feels that way.

That's why they want to replace the entire kit.

They do have a problem with their pricing structure if you can get the kit for $160 from an online retailer, and they want to charge you $450 for it. The kit probably costs the online retailer $145, so its hard to justify a price higher than $290 (the service company within GE probably pays more for the kit from their own company than the on-line retailer does; my service department "bought" parts at 50% off list when our distributors were buying at a 50/10/5/5 discount.)

Would your response have been different if he spent another ten minutes with a meter, then said "Listen, there's really no way to tell which part it is. If I replace this controller that tests bad, it could be just the first link in a chain of things that have failed. Its $100. I won't know if that fixes the entire system until I replace it. I have seen these ending up costing a bundle, and we've found the best way to handle these situations is to replace the entire defrost system with a kit that costs $300. Its in my truck, and we can get you back up and running today, with a 90 day warranty." It probably would have been OK then, but that technician is no longer in the field; we promoted him because he was too smart.

Think about your car analogy for a minute too. You drive (or tow) your car to the shop, they don't send a mechanic from the shop to your home. The mechanic in the shop can be fully utilized ... 8 hours of solid, revenue generating work. The technician coming to your home has "windshield time". That $100 service call is to help compensate for that time, but the burdened cost of that tech, with his truck, insurance for the truck, tools, etc. He also doesn't have the benefit of 5 other mechanics he can consult with while diagnosing the problem.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how much you save by doing it yourself, counting all the costs (but not your time). The difference between the $1000 they were going to charge and what you end up spending is the value of your time. Compare that to what you earn at your job, and then figure out if it was worth it or not (only you can say; I enjoy conquering problems, so I'm willing to pay more per hour for enjoyment than I earn.)

[Mike Henderson]

I understand your position, Frank. But when I take my car in for service, I've never had them tell me "We replaced this part but it could the tip of an iceberg of problems." And I've never known them to replace a whole bunch of parts to cover their butt. They seem to be able to figure out what's wrong and fix it. I don't see why an appliance technician can't do the same thing. If anything, refrigerators are much simpler devices than cars, especially today.

I realize the service tech has windshield time, and I'm willing to pay a reasonable amount for that.

But I strongly object to paying for things that benefit the service technician instead of me. Putting in a kit is not an advantage for me, it's an advantage for the technician - but I have to pay for it. That's my objection. The technician should be able to figure out what's wrong and only do that much repair.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should pay for more than what I need so that the service tech doesn't have to make a return trip. In essence, you're asking me to buy insurance that benefits the technician and not me. If the technician would do what s/he is suppose to and properly diagnose the problem, I wouldn't have to pay for that "insurance". Basically, what you're saying is that I should pay a very large fee because the technician may not diagnose the problem correctly and may have to make a return trip. Using your logic, we (consumers) are paying an enormous sum because the service technician is not properly trained, does not have the right diagnostic tools, or is not competent to do the diagnosis. What you need to do is make sure the technician can properly diagnose problems and only replace what's not working, not every part in the subsystem.

The only reason for the existence of a "kit" is that the technician can't do his/her job properly. You seem to take it as a "given" that the technician can't do a proper job - and that the problem must be solved through the use of a kit (and excess cost to the customer) rather than training and equipping the technician to do the proper job. And all of us (the business owner and the customer) should *expect* the technician to do a proper job - not accept that the problem cannot be properly diagnosed. But the main beneficiary of the "kit" policy is the owner of the service appliance business: it increases the billings (and profit), reduces the callback, and allows the hiring of lesser trained technicians.

Are auto mechanics smarter than appliance technicians? Probably not. Are they better trained? Maybe so. Do they have better diagnostic tools? I think so.

All I want from my appliance technician is the same service I get from my automobile technician. That's not very much to ask.

[Let's extend your logic to automobiles. My car breaks down on the side of the highway and I have it towed to the dealer. The dealer tells me they must replace the engine because it could be the beginning of a cascade of problems. Or the dealer wants to change everything (the engine subsystem) to make sure there aren't any "callbacks". Absurd? Of course. But it's exactly the same thing you're advocating be done with appliances.]

Mike

[Al Willits]

""""""""
I understand your position, Frank. But when I take my car in for service, I've never had them tell me "We replaced this part but it could the tip of an iceberg of problems." And I've never known them to replace a whole bunch of parts to cover their butt. They seem to be able to figure out what's wrong and fix it. I don't see why an appliance technician can't do the same thing. If anything, refrigerators are much simpler devices than cars, especially today.
""""""""

Car dealers don't aways get it right, took 2dealers and 6 times to figure out what a vibration was in my 1986 F250.

But more to the point, problem comes when your frig/appliance doesn't work, and the tech can't figure out why they can contact the factory for help, here's where the problem lies.

In many cases, especially new appliances, the factory tech support hasn't a answer for them, and their usual reply is to replace all suspect parts.

OK if warranty, not so good if its coming out of your pocket book.

Once a appliance gets some time on it, usually the bugs can be figured out, its that new period when everybody is trying to figure whats wrong that hurts.

Al

[Frank Hagan]

Absurd? Of course. But it's exactly the same thing you're advocating be done with appliances.]


Well, no, I'm not advocating anything. I'm trying to give you the perspective from the national service company's standpoint. Sorry if I offended you, as that wasn't my intention.

It will be interesting to see if the part you bought fixes the problem.

[Mike Henderson]

Well, no, I'm not advocating anything. I'm trying to give you the perspective from the national service company's standpoint. Sorry if I offended you, as that wasn't my intention.

It will be interesting to see if the part you bought fixes the problem.
Well, I bought the exact same "icing kit" that they wanted to sell me (but I paid a lot less than what they wanted to charge me). The part number was on the "estimate" they gave me.

I'll also be interested to see if it fixes the problem. I'll post a follow up after I install the parts. It takes a while to ice up - several weeks - so I won't know for a month or more if I solved the problem.

Mike

[Actually, I studied the design of the defrost system and I'm pretty sure I know what part is not working. It is included in the kit. I could have just bought that part but since I'm a novice, and I got the kit at a decent price, I decided to go with it. Less than $200 is a lot better than $1,000, and is about what I expected to pay for the technician to do the work.]

[Frank Hagan]

Once a appliance gets some time on it, usually the bugs can be figured out, its that new period when everybody is trying to figure whats wrong that hurts.


I would disagree with this. You simply don't know if replacing a part will fix a problem or not, even if that part is bad. It could be bad because something else failed.

I now work for a high tech company producing superconducting RF filters for cellular networks. When we get a unit back for repair we often have to replace several components before we get to the "root cause" part. Is it the $2 fuse or the $5,400 dewar? Is it the $1,500 DSP board or the $4,000 cryo cooler? We start with the cheap stuff, and then work our way up to the ladder until we find out what really caused the problem.

Trying to do this in the field would be very hard.

The test for this situation will be if Mike's refrigerator is fixed with the part from the kit the technician identified for him (that identification was probably worth the $100 service call). If Mike ends up replacing the entire kit, he's still ahead of the game because of the exorbitant cost GE was going to charge for the kit.

[Mike Henderson]

I would disagree with this. You simply don't know if replacing a part will fix a problem or not, even if that part is bad. It could be bad because something else failed.
That might be true in some complex system, but the defrost system of a refrigerator is pretty simple - in fact, most "white goods" appliances are pretty simple devices. There's a defrost timer which has a cycle time of 10 hours of compressor operation (on my system). When the timer gets to "defrost" it turns off the compressor and turns on the heaters. That's it.

It's very, very hard for me to see how something would make one of those heaters go bad. You could wire it directly across the line and it would work fine - it's designed to work with full line voltage.

In thinking about the situation a bit more, I came up with an even simpler diagnostic test. You can advance the defrost timer with a screwdriver. All the technician has to do is advance the timer to "defrost" and then put his/her hand on one of the heaters. If it's not getting warm, either a switch on the timer is bad or the heater is bad. Do a voltage check on the wires coming out of the timer. If no voltage, the timer switch is bad. Otherwise, the heater is bad.

Pretty simple and foolproof and there's nothing else involved (power comes to the timer, and is switched - that's it). If the timer was not running, you wouldn't have ice running down the side - one of the heaters must be working in order to melt the ice, which means the timer is cycling.

Automobile mechanics do similar diagnostic tests to isolate the failing part. As an electrical engineer, I did that all the time when searching for a failed part in a circuit. It's pretty basic and something we should expect the technician to be able to do.

Sears service has the diagnostic process on the computer they bring to your home. They call up your model number and enter the primary complaint. The computer tells them what to check and asks them to enter the result of their test or observation. Pretty quickly, they get to the solution.

Mike

[Phil Thien]

If its any consolation, a $100 service call doesn't pay for itself from the company's standpoint. Our burdened cost for a factory service tech was $135 per hour IF we had him fully utilized (which they almost never were, unless they were on a 8 hour job).

There is something wrong within an organization when the burdened cost of a $25/hour employee gets to $135/hour. :eek:

BTW, my friend's mechanical contracting biz's burdened cost for an electrician (union shop) is less than $135/hour. :confused:

[Frank Hagan]

There is something wrong within an organization when the burdened cost of a $25/hour employee gets to $135/hour. :eek:

BTW, my friend's mechanical contracting biz's burdened cost for an electrician (union shop) is less than $135/hour. :confused:

Well, the problem for my department was we were given several costs that weren't totally ours ... the entire phone system and all of its costs (service, long distance, all the cell phones, etc.) were part of the Customer Service department's budget. SG&A percentage on parts was up to 540% when I left the company, so that was a real challenge (I could buy parts from my distributors cheaper than I could from my own company). Warranty labor (but not parts) were assigned to the Service department.

The lowest paid tech I had earned $45k, and the top tech was just over $100k (they had an incentive plan on labor, but not on parts). I think the average was closer to $40 than to $25. We replaced service vehicles every two years, and the budget for the vehicle was $40,000 when I left. I don't recall what insurance, maintenance and the other direct costs were, but they were not minor costs. Travel expenses were well over $100k per year.

The cost structure for a nationwide service fleet is larger than your average local shop. In the last two companies, we transitioned to using local sub contractors because it was cheaper to pay a contractor than it was to maintain a factory guy.

[Phil Thien]

I think the average was closer to $40 than to $25. We replaced service vehicles every two years, and the budget for the vehicle was $40,000 when I left.

Was that GE?

I have had a GE tech living upstairs from my business for a number of years, and I've gotten kinda friendly with him (mostly while helping him push his RRD GE van out of snow several times. I'd say the truck is 4-5 years old). I wouldn't think a guy making $83k/year would live in a one-bedroom $400/month efficiency.

Next time he comes in a begs a Coke off me after work I'll hit him with a "no free Cokes for guys making $83k a year" and see what he says. You never know, maybe he is frugal. I know another guy living upstairs that is approx. 85 and I'm thinking he is absolutely loaded.

[Pat Germain]

To heck with GE. Next time, Sub-Zero.

FWIW, Consumer Reports has listed Sub-Zero as one of the most repair-prone brands on the market. This has been consistent year after year. It's about the same with Fisher Paykel. The ratings are based on consumer feedback from people who actually own the appliances.

[Al Willits]

"""""
I would disagree with this. You simply don't know if replacing a part will fix a problem or not, even if that part is bad. It could be bad because something else failed.
""""

True, but most techs try and dianose what's wrong and keep that to a minimum, this ain't high tech, only so many parts to a appliance.
The major problem comes to play when the factory screws up a design and the time it takes to figure out what the problem is, GE has a lot of them lately, along with a few other brands, especially in refrigerators it seems.

Al

[Frank Hagan]

Was that GE?

I have had a GE tech living upstairs from my business for a number of years, and I've gotten kinda friendly with him (mostly while helping him push his RRD GE van out of snow several times. I'd say the truck is 4-5 years old). I wouldn't think a guy making $83k/year would live in a one-bedroom $400/month efficiency.

Next time he comes in a begs a Coke off me after work I'll hit him with a "no free Cokes for guys making $83k a year" and see what he says. You never know, maybe he is frugal. I know another guy living upstairs that is approx. 85 and I'm thinking he is absolutely loaded.

No, these guys were boiler technicians. The ones at the higher end of the earnings ladder were troubleshooting everything from 5,000,000 BTU/hr boilers to 125,000 BTU/hr swimming pool heaters. The guys with the worst job were the ones in areas where we sold domestic boilers; less earnings per ticket and the people are usually pretty upset, and therefore a bit harder to work with.

[Frank Hagan]

"""""
I would disagree with this. You simply don't know if replacing a part will fix a problem or not, even if that part is bad. It could be bad because something else failed.
""""

True, but most techs try and dianose what's wrong and keep that to a minimum, this ain't high tech, only so many parts to a appliance.
The major problem comes to play when the factory screws up a design and the time it takes to figure out what the problem is, GE has a lot of them lately, along with a few other brands, especially in refrigerators it seems.

Al

The OPs fridge is older, but I'll bet the newer ones are harder to diagnose. Electronic control systems are particularly hard to figure out for field techs. I guess there's only three components on the older one, all 11 years old, and two of them are resistance heaters. I don't know how long those last, but I would probably recommend the entire kit too. But, I would have spent the time to put a meter on it and show the homeowner, test ohms resistance of the two heaters, etc. The end result is the same, but the homeowner feels that you "did something" for the $100 rather than use just your experience to quickly provide the answer.

[Phil Thien]

No, these guys were boiler technicians. The ones at the higher end of the earnings ladder were troubleshooting everything from 5,000,000 BTU/hr boilers to 125,000 BTU/hr swimming pool heaters. The guys with the worst job were the ones in areas where we sold domestic boilers; less earnings per ticket and the people are usually pretty upset, and therefore a bit harder to work with.

Oh, I think that is a little different. I wouldn't be surprised at all that an experienced boiler tech working on large commercial installations could make $80k+/year.

[Mike Henderson]

The OPs fridge is older, but I'll bet the newer ones are harder to diagnose. Electronic control systems are particularly hard to figure out for field techs. I guess there's only three components on the older one, all 11 years old, and two of them are resistance heaters. I don't know how long those last, but I would probably recommend the entire kit too. But, I would have spent the time to put a meter on it and show the homeowner, test ohms resistance of the two heaters, etc. The end result is the same, but the homeowner feels that you "did something" for the $100 rather than use just your experience to quickly provide the answer.
Amen - except the decision on whether to put in a "kit" or to just replace the failing part is a decision for me to make, and not for the service company to force on me. I may decide that I'm willing to take the risk of another part failing for the benefit of the lower cost repair. And resistance heaters last a looooong time. People with electric stoves rarely replace "burners", for example.

The most likely heater failure is a part that would cost $80 from GE and about $50 from a reputable web supplier (genuine GE part). That's a whole lot less than $450 for the kit.

If you agree with me on that, we are essentially in complete agreement.

Mike

[And BTW, if anyone's interested I can post a scan of the repair estimate - just in case anyone thinks I'm making this stuff up.]

[Mike Henderson]

Oh, an additional thought. The more electronics you put into something like a refrigerator, the easier it should be to service it. Unless the processor unit fails, there should be a readout location that the technician can plug into to be told exactly what's wrong.

Cars have done that for a while now. In fact, I wonder if some auto techs can diagnose anything that doesn't have a computer in it.

Mike

[If there was some way for the refrigerator to communicate through the Internet (maybe if the home had WiFi), the frig could report the failure to the company and they'd call you to schedule a service call. And they'd have the parts to fix it on the first visit.]

[Bart Leetch]

The local Appliance dealer won't stock any GE appliances any more he told me they have the highest failure rate & the parts cost more than most & he received more call backs on GE appliance than any other appliance brand.

[Mike Henderson]

Well, I finally got around to installing that icing kit I bought. I had procrastinated because I knew the installation would be a pain - and it was. I would defrost the freezer with a hair dryer to keep it going.

But in doing it, I found the root cause - THE DRAIN HOSE WAS CLOGGED!!!!

It actually looks like a design defect to me - the drain hose just does not have enough slope to it so crud can collect in the hose. Given enough time you get a clogged hose. And I'll bet those technicians knew that. At the minimum, they should have checked on what the common problems were on that unit.

Now, you can't see the drain hose until you disassemble part of the unit, but that's my complaint about the service tech. If he had tested the resistance heaters he would have found that they were good and maybe (if he was a good tech) he'd consider the drain hose and check it.

So those bozos were going to charge me $450 for a kit which was not needed in the least bit - about $1,000 total with labor - when all that was wrong was that the drain hose was clogged. At worst, it should have been a $200 labor job. So perhaps you can understand how outraged I am by this situation. I don't mind being cheated a little bit but I really object to being cheated to the tune of $1,000.

My "faith" in appliance repair people is about as low as it can get.

Mike

[I thought of a way to flush the drain line. Take some tubing that will fit into the drain hose (it's about 1/2" ID). Use a small pump and pump water through the small hose as you snake it into the drain hose. Eventually, you'll flush all the crud out. I'm sure that clogged drain lines are a common problem, and I expect the repair people to solve the problem in the way that's lowest cost to me, and not in the way that makes them the most money.]

[Rod Upfold]

Here is an interesting place...I have gone there a couple times for help.


http://www.applianceblog.com/mainforums/index.php?


Rod

[Phil Thien]

I don't mind being cheated a little bit but I really object to being cheated to the tune of $1,000.


I understand (and share) the sentiment. But it is a shame we have arrived here. The reason I do so many projects like these myself (appliance repair, car repair, etc.) is that I quite simply refuse to remain permanently bent over.

[Mitchell Andrus]

To heck with GE. Next time, Sub-Zero.

My 5 yo Sub-Zero developed a freon leak. $600.00 to replace the coil and re-charge the system. It's likely a $150.00 part.

The ice maker quit and leaked a few months ago. I turned the water off and now use ice cube trays. They can pound salt.
.

[Mike Henderson]

Here is an interesting place...I have gone there a couple times for help.


http://www.applianceblog.com/mainforums/index.php?


Rod

Thanks, Rod. That looks like a good place and they only charge $5 for a lifetime membership. Very reasonable.


I understand (and share) the sentiment. But it is a shame we have arrived here. The reason I do so many projects like these myself (appliance repair, car repair, etc.) is that I quite simply refuse to remain permanently bent over.
I used to do everything, also, Phil, but mainly because we didn't have a lot of money. I've done a lot of major car repair (rebuilt engines, for example) because we owned older cars. But I reached the point in my life where I don't enjoy getting greasy and dirty any more so I take my car to a mechanic. In the beginning, I would check their work - I'd ask for replaced parts or check if the brakes had been flushed, for example (and they weren't offended that I did that). But now I trust them. They're not the cheapest but do good work and are honest - and they do a lot of business.

So all I ask is that the repair person be competent, honest, and have my interest at heart (basically figure out how to do the repair at the lowest cost - the same as if they were paying for the repair). I really don't think that's unreasonable or too much to ask.

Mike