Have/Will "guided saw systems" change your shop

[JayStPeter]

There has been a number of discussions recently about the guided circular saw systems (GCSS). They have some advantages over traditional tablesaws when it comes to sizing large panels, but they definitely have some disadvantages.

When I get a piece of equipment that can perform the same function as another, I tend to reevaluate what I will use each for and wether I need both. For example, I recently got a Jointech SmartMiter and thought seriously about removing my miter saw from the shop (or at least relegating it to a "portable" tool.

I find that every sheet good I get goes to the GCSS. I have a tendency to use lots of sheet goods, so the sytem is almost always on call. I am currently trying to come up with a way to make it a permanent part of the shop. I still find the table saw indespensable. But, I'm thinking that if I were in the market for a TS right now, I would consider getting something with a shorter fence. I feel like most cuts over say 30" are going to the GCSS.

Let's try to use GCSS (wether F, E, or other) and avoid brand comparisons/bashing. It's getting annoying and I'll be the first to alert the moderators to close the thread if it becomes an E vs F. I realize certain brands sell different accessories that may come into the discussion, but please try to generalize. Thanks.

Jay

[Ken Salisbury]

Let's try to use GCSS (wether F, E, or other) and avoid brand comparisons/bashing. It's getting annoying and I'll be the first to alert the moderators to close the thread if it becomes an E vs F. I realize certain brands sell different accessories that may come into the discussion, but please try to generalize. Thanks.
JayI am already alerted :) . Please try to observe the TOS when repsonding to this thread.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

[Jamie Buxton]

The tablesaw is more convenient to use, but limited in size. For a plywood-based project, my "panel saw" appears long enough to break down the big sheets, and then it stows away.

[Steven Wilson]

I use a sliding table saw so I have no need for a guided circular saw system. However, I do have a need for System32 holes and my decision was between a hole guide system or a boring machine. I chose a hole guide system that looks to be nearly as robust as a boring machine, as accurate, and significantly less expensive. I chose the Festool router and guide system with the 32mm hole accessories (guide rail with holes, etc); total was less than the least expensive boring machine I could find (Delta). As is, the combination is cost effecitve but their are some unexpected benefits. First, I have half of a great circular saw guide system and half of a jig saw guide system if I want to go that route. Second, I get a very accurate system for producing stopped datos and sliding dovetails. I would consider adding the circular saw and/or jig saw if I was building on site away from my shop (i.e. buy a new house, build a cabin, customer site, etc). In any case, adding the functionality would be fairly inexpensive. If I was starting out now I would probably choose an integrated router, jig saw, circular saw, guide system and skip a lower end table saw. In support of that I would probably get a jointer/planer and a bandsaw. That would give me rough stock prep and ripping capability and most of it would be portable. It would be nice if Festool would step up and import their portable tablesaw.

[Tom LaRussa]

Let's try to use GCSS (wether F, E, or other) and avoid brand comparisons/bashing. It's getting annoying and I'll be the first to alert the moderators to close the thread if it becomes an E vs F. I realize certain brands sell different accessories that may come into the discussion, but please try to generalize. Thanks.

Jay
Jay,

I've never used a GCSS, but I have to say that I'm not the world's biggest fan of the table because I think it's a very dangerous piece of machinery.

On the other hand, one problem I see with the GCSSs -- which may or may not be realistic, given that I've never used one -- is that they do not appear to be as convenient to use as the TS. The TS is alway right there, ready to go at the flip of a switch. Ironically, I think that the very convenience of the TS is one of the things that makes it dangerous.

I've been building a lot of jigs and such for my shop lately -- router table built into the TS extension table, overarm TS blade guard with DC, and the like -- and I find myself going to the TS more and more often for smaller and smaller jobs, and with less and less of that healthy fear with which I once approached it. This is one of the reasons I am so looking forward to the arrival of my new Grizzly G0555 Ultimate Bandsaw with Riser Block & curved resaw fence, i.e., I think that the BS will be a safer "go to" tool for quick, small jobs. (How's that for mixing in a stealth pre-gloat? Even used company colors! :D )

As I said, I use the TS, but that doesn't mean I'm all that comfortable with its importance. And, frankly, it freaks me out a bit when I read posts from woodworkers who seem to use the TS for just about every job in the shop.

Take tenon cutting, for example. It seems to me that a table-mounted router will cut a smoother tenon than any TS ever could -- even a TS using the "Holy-of-Holies," i.e., the Forrest WWII! :p -- without the danger of maiming oneself in the process. Sure, you could feed your finger tip into the router bit, but I seriously doubt any but the most utterly inept could manage to amputate a finger that way.

It seems to me that a bandsaw is another superior method for cutting tenons -- it cuts slower, so you have more chance to fix a cut before it goes completely wrong, plus you can get a lot closer to the action, so can see what the heck you're doing. Sure, one certainly could damage onself quite badly with a bandsaw -- butchers use them to cut up steer carcases after all -- but again it seems like one should much more easily be able to confine the damage to a knicked finger tip, rather than a missing digit or digits.

Now then, back to the issue of GCSSs...

I would be much more interested in one of these if they could be mounted vertically like a vertical panel saw. I brought up panel saws in an earlier thread and was poo-pooed by several posters who explained that those VPSs available for the home user, i.e., those that sell for less than a couple grand, are only good for rough cutting sheet goods on a 90 degree angle. This may be so, but that does not mean it is necessarily so.

A panel saw wherein a very good saw -- my choice would be a Skil Mag Worm Drive -- rides linear ball bearings along solid steel rails should cut 90 degree angles with engineering precision. Add to that an strengthened version of something like an Incra or FasTrak miter guide and now you're cutting angles with accuracy of 64ths of a degree, it seems to me.

JMHO, and all that.

One issue that I have not seen addressed regarding GCSSs is that of dust control. I'd like to see comments from those who use GCSSs on this.

In the meantime, I look forward to using my TS less and less once my new Grizzly G0555 Ultimate Bandsaw with Riser Block & curved resaw fence arrives this coming Friday. :eek: HOLY COW, HE DID IT AGAIN! :eek:

:D

Tom

[Steve Clardy]

Well I use my tablesaw most for ripping sheet goods. It is the center of my shop seems like.
I do have the complete system from Smartguide, out of the box, but have yet to mount a saw to it and give it a test drive. Just have not had the time.
I end cut sheet stock with my table saw as well as rip. The disadvantage to this is that it is quite dangerous, being the piece being cut off is shorter than whats left. I do use another table on wheels with roller bearings on top of it, sitting to the left of the table saw to help support those long end cuts.
Other than buying a true panel saw, lots of money, and takes up lots of wall space which I do not have, I went with the guide rail system.

I have been wanting to try the guided rail system out and do a small review on it, mainly to see if it fits into my shop and helps with the work load, and making it safer to end cut sheet goods. But with the threads on them going amuck, I haven't done anything.

Steve

[Tim Sproul]

GCSS are indispensable for installations. You should bring some milled stock to cover up discrepancies between your very square cabinetry and the very unsquare walls. As one site's example shows, you can make tapered millwork to fit. Try doing that with a portable, or even a stationary table saw. I really like this feature!

GCSS are great for making moldings. They are the least expensive/easiest way to get one edge straight and square on a 16 foot length. The least expensive/easiest being a combination thing. A jointer plane is likely the least expensive but requires quite a lot of skill to get a 16 foot edge flat and square. Something like the woodmaster with the gang rip attatchment or a commercial rip saw are likely much easier.....but cannot even compare to the price points of a GCSS. My GCSS has enabled me to mill my own long moldings now that I can edge joint beyond 8 or so feet. I can do by hand but don't have the patience NOR the skills.

[John Miliunas]

I believe my response to the original thread, still holds validity within this one. I have and use a GCSS. Simply put, I love it and am almost passionate about it, as it's allowed me to do things I otherwise was having difficulty with, primarily in terms of large sheet-goods. I also have used it as a great time-saver prepping rough-sawn lumber before hitting the jointer. I can accurately, effortlessly and safely get nice, clean cuts on all the materials I throw at it, including tapered cuts on very narrow stock. I'm currently in the middle of a lot of "carpentry" work on the house repairs/remodels, which brings the portability of such a system to the forefront. The savings in time, as well as wear & tear to this old body, by not having to go clear out to the shop for each cut is extremely significant. Anyone would be extremely hard-pressed to ever talk me out of having/owning such a system! :)

Ah, but I also have a nice cabinet saw. Setup with a high-quality mitering system, top-notch blade, good fence, out-feed table, splitter, dust collection and hold-downs, it's accurate, safe and effortless to get nice clean cuts on all the materials I throw at it. (Sound familiar?) The differences? Well, pretty obvious. First, it's not exactly portable. Secondly, it's not really setup for full sheet-good processing. Also, I've not had tremendously good luck with accurately cutting lo-o-o-ong tapered cuts on it. So, why in the heck does it continue to take up valuable real estate in my shop?! :confused: For starters, super-accurate miters from 90* on down. Repeatable accuracy. Accurate bevel cuts and, not just at 90* or 45*, but anywhere in between, as well. Again, repeatable. Stopped cuts, by virtue of the stop on the miter fence. I can cut the exact same length at whatever miter angle I want all day long and the finished products will be identical in dimension. Always. Sorry, but I just can't see myself trying to line up some type of straightedge across a 1-1/2" frame, cut it 45* and get all four corners to be a perfect match *all* the time! Period! If the need arises to cut 8/4 stock, guess what: I can do it on TS. (Oh yeah, sure...The BS is good for that too, but I'm trying to restrict myself to a more narrow discussion here!) :)

I'm sure I've missed points on either system, but the major point I'm trying to relate is, BOTH systems have their advantages and shortcomings. And, even within each system, there are advantages and shortcomings over the next one. I think it's all relative to the type of work you wish to do and often what your budget and, sometimes physical space, allows for. In the final analysis, MHO opinion is that, you can do *most* of what needs to be done with *either* system. BUT, for the sake of efficiency, safety and ability to *expand* on one's creativity, BOTH systems are in order! So, in my tool arsenal, the GCSS, as well as the TS will remain as integral parts of my woodworking experience. :cool: (Sorry for getting so long-winded... :o )

[Jim Becker]

I've been giving this a lot of thought lately and am glad this question is getting more refined and granular.

The GCSS (and in the context of my comments refers to the new generation of products where the guide and the saw are more integrated, as opposed to a simple clamped straight edge "guiding" the tool) offers some really great capabilty to both the hobbyest and pro woodworker, both in the shop and away from the shop. I do believe it will enhance the way we work when we employ such a system where it makes sense and offers advantages over other solutions for a given task.

That said, I don't think that the GCSS is going to be a "universal replacement" for the table saw (of whatever form you prefer), both in my own woodworking activities as well as for most other folks. GCSS is the perfect choice for breaking down material very accurately, either to rough or final dimensions, when the pieces to be cut are of a size that can be safely handled by the system. For many of us, including myself, that makes for easier material handling, especially when working with heavy stuff, such as MDF. It also means that one can make very accuate cuts "on site" when the shop isn't available. On the other hand, and as some folks have pointed out, repetitive ripping is a much more pleasant process on the table saw, as are a number of other tasks that you want to make "one setup" and then make some sawdust.

So, for me, the GCSS will make a lot of things easier to do, but not take away my need for a quality table saw. (especially since I don't use much in the way of sheet goods in my work) I suspect the same is true for the professional cabinet maker where a true sliding TS in the shop combined with a GCSS, both there and "on site" will make for efficient and accurate work. Bottom line...they are complimentary, not exclusive.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for starting this thread Jay, and thanks to those who have contributed so far. There are definately some points being made here that I had not yet considered.

I also like the Guided Circular Saw System and the GCSS acronym.

Right now, I am leaning toward using a GCSS system (with a guided router and guided jig saw thrown into the system for good measure) as the core my new shop and investing in a small but good table saw as an auxilary piece of equipment.

[Frank Pellow]

Jay,

One issue that I have not seen addressed regarding GCSSs is that of dust control. I'd like to see comments from those who use GCSSs on this.

Tom

At least with Festool, it is easy to hook up a vacuum to the saw. That's a big saving in price over a good cyclone dust control system. What I am not yet sure of, is whether I might get annoyed with the vacuum hose getting in the way.

[Jim Becker]

At least with {certain GCSS}, it is easy to hook up a vacuum to the saw. That's a big saving in price over a good cyclone dust control system. What I am not yet sure of, is whether I might get annoyed with the vacuum hose getting in the way.Regular DCs and cyclones are not the best solution for the small, hand-held tools, such as those that are used in a GCSS...the ports are so small that you need the exact opposite properties for extraction than you want for larger tools. You need very high SP with lower air volumes for this job through small hoses. Therefore, efficient vacs, such as brand F (black and green) or brand F (orange) or similar, represent the best possible dust extraction for these smaller tools. The cyclone is what you want for the big stuff...a small vac can't move enough air for that job.

It's true that the "hose tether" can take some getting used to, but so does the cord! The first time I used a tool with this kind of setup, it was a challenge, but now it's become a natural process to position the tool, extractor and my body to accomodate the hose and cord.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Regular DCs and cyclones are not the best solution for the small, hand-held tools, such as those that are used in a GCSS...the ports are so small that you need the exact opposite properties for extraction than you want for larger tools. You need very high SP with lower air volumes for this job through small hoses. Therefore, efficient vacs, such as brand F (black and green) or brand F (orange) or similar, represent the best possible dust extraction for these smaller tools. The cyclone is what you want for the big stuff...a small vac can't move enough air for that job.

It's true that the "hose tether" can take some getting used to, but so does the cord! The first time I used a tool with this kind of setup, it was a challenge, but now it's become a natural process to position the tool, extractor and my body to accomodate the hose and cord.
Hello Jim.
The Festool dust collection system is the best.
(I will not be afraid to give credit where credit is due).
Hi Frank. If you need to cut panels race your vaccum and the cord
above your cutting table.
And think of your system as a (manual) CNC woodworking center.
YCF Bino

[Mark Singer]

I think a lot of this comes down to personal preference and experience. I have a fine tablesaw and a great GCSS. I use the GCSS to "breakdown" full sheets. After that I rely on the exactness and repeatability of the tablesaw. Let say I needed 5 matching drawer fronts of the same size. The fence of the tablesaw will insure equal dimensions, moving the guide system even with a measuring stick will create some variation the same is true of squarness of the cuts. If I cut to exact pieces using the tablesaw and flip them end to end...they are exact and square and that is important and nice to rely on. If I were making some cabinets in the field rather than in the shop like a remote location, I would not hesitate to use the CGSS and a Kreg Jig. I could work fast and get reasonably good results without a full shop of machinery. That is an amazing difference from just a few years ago.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I have one in the plans for my shop....right after I buy the right tilt 1023 and a sliding table. I will be using both on my shop since I build cabinets on about 25% of my jobs. I could never see one taking the place of the other, but then right now I have neither...http://sawmillcreek.org/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I don't think I'll be getting one. I don't work with plywood much and when I do I use a circular saw to cut it into small pieces that I can run through the table saw. I think I'd buy a sliding table if I used sheet goods often enough to consider a one.

[Jack Young]

On the dust extraction issue raised by Frank, and considering Jim's response, I am rethinking the business of DC in my interim configuration. Space (and 220 volts) requires me to put my new bandsaw in my half of the garage where there is no DC. The jointer and planer in my modest workshop space elsewhere have 4" dust ports, as does the bandsaw. I'm thinking I will move the jointer, planer and Jet two-bagger DC unit into the garage, and use the "F" DC unit in the workshop where, with an adapter, I can use it for the TS and router table (which is on a lateral extension of the TS) each of which has 2" ports, and for general cleanup, as well as for the GMCC system for which it was designed. Question: Jim, or anyone(s), can the "F" DC make a dent in the dust from the TS and router table, which have 2" ports?

The problem will be moot next Spring, when I build a freestanding shop to house all of it in one place, but I don't want to buy another major DC unit in the interim. A heater for the garage, moveable to the new workshop when built, would be a more appropriate acquisition.

On the primary topic, I would consider a panel saw to be a GCSS. It has the requisite features of a GCSS, except for portability.

Jack

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I'm just wondering if it's worth buying a super accurate guided system IF you're going to re cut using a table saw? It seems that you could just rough cut your sheet goods with a circular saw then go to the table saw and make things perfect. What am I missing here?

I'm sure I'd want some sort of guided system if I started working with big sheet material. I presently don't do much of that and when I do I just clamp a straight edge to the ply on the garage floor and cut it. Then I refine with my table saw as stated above. I do hate bending down on the garage floor for this though. :)

Also could somebody describe to me what a "smart table" is? I read this term on another thread here and couldn't understand what it is.



Alan in Md.

[Frank Pellow]

...
It's true that the "hose tether" can take some getting used to, but so does the cord! The first time I used a tool with this kind of setup, it was a challenge, but now it's become a natural process to position the tool, extractor and my body to accomodate the hose and cord.

I have the Festool circular saw, vacuum, and portable guide rails and have sort of gotten used to the vacuum hose. But, it is the thing that I like least about the system.

I don't (yet) have a fixed table with guide rails and I am concerned that, if and when I do, that the hose will become an even greater encumberence. I would like to try to use such a table for repetative operations that are "traditionaly" done with a table saw but I am wondering if the hose will be such a big pain that I either will not use it or that I will gravitate back to my table saw for such operations.

[Frank Pellow]

...

On the primary topic, I would consider a panel saw to be a GCSS. It has the requisite features of a GCSS, except for portability.

Jack

And, at least with the panel saws that I have seen, panel saws have niether the accuracy nor the clean cuts of a GCSS. To me, panel saws are clearly inferior to GCSSs.

[John Miliunas]

I'm just wondering if it's worth buying a super accurate guided system IF you're going to re cut using a table saw? It seems that you could just rough cut your sheet goods with a circular saw then go to the table saw and make things perfect. What am I missing here?

I'm sure I'd want some sort of guided system if I started working with big sheet material. I presently don't do much of that and when I do I just clamp a straight edge to the ply on the garage floor and cut it. Then I refine with my table saw as stated above. I do hate bending down on the garage floor for this though. :)

Also could somebody describe to me what a "smart table" is? I read this term on another thread here and couldn't understand what it is.
Alan in Md.

Alan, I'll try to address your inquiries as best I can. First, there's the "IF" question. IF you have one of the GCSS units, you really don't have to go to the table saw after the initial cut. In the cases where you *need* an agled cut along the length of a sheet, this would be extremely hard to do on the TS, at best. I have found this to be invaluable in my repairs/remodel of an older home where, thus far, absolutely *nothing* is square to start with! :mad: Another consideration in favor of the GCSS is in material savings. We've all been taught to index off the factory edge of sheetgoods to try and attain the squarest final product. It works. But now, if you do that freehand or with a less than accurate guide, the subsequent cut off the leftover piece of sheetgood, may not give you the advantage of a perfectly straight and square factory edge. So now you index off the opposite edge (factory edge) of the leftover piece to make another rough cut and then on to square it up on the TS. What happens to the drop in the middle of those cuts? Two long edges, which may not be square, straight or have a lot of tearout on them, that's what. At the price of sheet-goods today, I like to maximize on using as much as I can toward a finished product! :)

The "smart tables" in question are just that; They are tables which get the work closer to you and offer support for both, the object piece and the drop, helping prevent accidents and tears at the ends of the cuts. On one, the clamping system is integral to the table. On the other, the clamping system is integral to the guide itself. One has numerous options for using multiple tools and setups, while the other is more simplistic in its approach. Yet, referring back to a previous thread, another "smart table" may be something as simple as a couple pieces of 2" styrofoam board on saw horses to support and help prevent tearout. Suffice it to say, these tables get the work closer to the user and off the floor, generally making the work more comfortable, safer and more accurate. Space, specific use(s) and budget concerns come into play quite a bit on this one. :cool:

[Steve Jenkins]

And, at least with the panel saws that I have seen, panel saws have niether the accuracy nor the clean cuts of a GCSS. To me, panel saws are clearly inferior to GCSSs.


Frank, assuming you are referring to verical panel saws, in the price points most small shops are restricted to I think that is very true. If you happen to get to the IWF in Atlanta you can see some "Panel Saws". But with vertical panel saws,even the really high priced ones trying to do angled cuts is problematic.
Most of them the saw can travel up and down and left and right. If you want to make an angled cut you have to set the panel on an angle.I'm referring to angled across the panel not a mitered edge. Steve

[Dennis Peacock]

Let's try to use GCSS (wether F, E, or other) and avoid brand comparisons/bashing. It's getting annoying and I'll be the first to alert the moderators to close the thread if it becomes an E vs F. I realize certain brands sell different accessories that may come into the discussion, but please try to generalize. Thanks.

Jay

No to worry Jay....You have <b>TWO</b> moderators watching this thread. :)

[JayStPeter]

Now we're cooking. My sentiments echo most of yours. I have a table saw that I've spent lots of time and money to make accurate. I find the GCSS to be a step backward. But I feel like it is a step in the right direction as far as safety goes. I agree with John that angled and tapered cuts work great. I also love it for jointing an edge in the grain direction I choose.
Accuracy and repeatability are issues that I have with the GCSS. I have built a little jig to help with that. It remains to be seen wether this keeps me from sweetening up my cuts at the TS. The GCSS certainly makes nice clean cuts in ply (usually cleaner than the TS).
As for DC, the GCSS I have has incredible DC. It beats the heck out of my TS (which includes overhead DC guard). I cut up a number of pieces of MDF (probably 20 4' and 8' cuts) and had nothing to clean up. These were final cuts as I was scribing them to unsquare walls.

Since I started this thread, and I know the rules, here's some pics.

Pic1- My GCSS parallel/repeatability jig. It's probably not an original idea, but I simply took a piece of scrap ply and made a dado for a piece of t-track. I can see making it slicker and adding a cursor/rule if this works well. So, far only a couple cuts with it.
Pic2- GCSS jig in use. Sorry to show what brand I have, but it should work with any brand (including homemade). I did hide the saw and vac (different brand) to avoid as much brand identification as possible :cool:
Pic3- My GCSS station. Semi-permanent installation in my shop. I got some folding legs to make it a little less permanent.

Jay

[Dennis Peacock]

I'll say this:

The TS is a great tool for what it was designed for.
I use the TS a LOT as it gets almost as much use as either of my lathes!! :eek:

Breaking down sheetgoods? When I don't use my TS to cut the sheet up into more manageable sizes, I have two 4 ft straight pieces that I snap together and clamp to the plywood with C-clamps and run my skillsaw down the edge. In fact, I built my entire router table with just that tool.

GCSS for me? I would like to have one in my shop, but it is not a requirement as I don't currently work with enough sheetgoods to justify buying one (maybe 15 sheets a year).

In my view? A GCSS is a complimentary tool to the shop and TS AND the TS is a complimentary tool to the GCSS.

If you look at the general specs and abilities of both "F" and "E"....They compliment each other really well. I can honestly see where one would have a need for BOTH in their shop.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

If you look at the general specs and abilities of both "F" and "E"....They compliment each other really well. I can honestly see where one would have a need for BOTH in their shop.

What's an "F" and "E"?

On another note, does it bother anyone else to be threatened in advance with calling the moderator or is it just me?

Then again I was "out" from the end of May until the end of July, maybe I missed something......

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi folks,

I'm really impressed of the interesting responses in this thread. Due to a lack of space and money, I currently do not own a table saw. Table saws seem to be more expensive in Europe than in the US - at least if you want to go for quality. Sliding tables are an important part of Euro table saws and even available for small saws (apart from noname products). Here's a pic (http://www.metabo.at/media_metabo/generate/bilddaten/big/0125600A_10.jpg) of such a small saw, please don't care for the brand.
I plan to get a table saw with a sliding table, of course, when budget and space allow. While I have no real idea of my future saw a big one is in my mind. But I have to admit that a small type might be sufficient because I can use my GCSS for large items. IMO one of the major problems is that it's difficult to find a small table saw which offers the same accuracy as a large Euro style saw. I don't expect that a small saw can handle full sheets of ply but I would like to see a small saw with a fence, sliding table etc which are as precise as their bigger pendants.
As others already stated it's hard do achieve repeatability and to cut small pieces with a GCSS. A "smart table" and Jay's parallel jig (I will probably make something similar) might help but a table saw still has its advantages.
However, I don't think that those GCSSs where initially designed to compete with table saws. I'm not even sure if they were designed to cut large sheetgoods in the first place because many pro shops use a vertical panel saws and/or format sliding table saws - at least here in Europe.
I guess the idea behind the first GCSSs was to offer as much accuracy as possible for onsite work (for example trimming doors).
Later it seemed to turn out that GCSSs would be an interesting alternative to hobbyist and small pros who can't afford a large Euro style slider (and vertical panel saw) or don't have enough space for it.

Regards,

Christian

[Frank Pellow]

...

If you look at the general specs and abilities of both "F" and "E"....They compliment each other really well. I can honestly see where one would have a need for BOTH in their shop.

Dennis can you elaborate on why you think it would be good to have both. I have "F" and I would like a good reason to also purchase "E" and to give them both shop space.

[David Rose]

What kind of tolerance will a GCSS hold? There has to be "room" for movement, but is this measured in fractions of thousandths or thousandths or what? I guess my real question is whether a finish cut can be just that. Will these things produce glue joints right off (out from under) the saw as some can get with a table saw? Obviously, I'm not just thinking sheet goods here. Are circular saws with a quality blade capable of this?

All I've used is a shop made guide with no control over the movement *away* from the guide. I find it very difficult to get this quality cut with my leftie PC. But I keep thinking it's me and the guide that is the problem rather than the saw and blade.

David

[Jack Young]

Frank Pellow-

The guide I have, same system as yours, has a smooth fitting for the end behind the saw, etc., which tracks the hose and cord and eliminates hang-ups, as on the sharp edges on the end of the guide. I think you have to order it as an accessory, but it's a dandy one for a few bucks. It's smooth as silk once you get the vac positioned properly.

Jack

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan, I'll try to address your inquiries as best I can. First, there's the "IF" question. IF you have one of the GCSS units, you really don't have to go to the table saw after the initial cut. In the cases where you *need* an agled cut along the length of a sheet, this would be extremely hard to do on the TS, at best. I have found this to be invaluable in my repairs/remodel of an older home where, thus far, absolutely *nothing* is square to start with! :mad: Another consideration in favor of the GCSS is in material savings. We've all been taught to index off the factory edge of sheetgoods to try and attain the squarest final product. It works. But now, if you do that freehand or with a less than accurate guide, the subsequent cut off the leftover piece of sheetgood, may not give you the advantage of a perfectly straight and square factory edge. So now you index off the opposite edge (factory edge) of the leftover piece to make another rough cut and then on to square it up on the TS. What happens to the drop in the middle of those cuts? Two long edges, which may not be square, straight or have a lot of tearout on them, that's what. At the price of sheet-goods today, I like to maximize on using as much as I can toward a finished product! :)

The "smart tables" in question are just that; They are tables which get the work closer to you and offer support for both, the object piece and the drop, helping prevent accidents and tears at the ends of the cuts. On one, the clamping system is integral to the table. On the other, the clamping system is integral to the guide itself. One has numerous options for using multiple tools and setups, while the other is more simplistic in its approach. Yet, referring back to a previous thread, another "smart table" may be something as simple as a couple pieces of 2" styrofoam board on saw horses to support and help prevent tearout. Suffice it to say, these tables get the work closer to the user and off the floor, generally making the work more comfortable, safer and more accurate. Space, specific use(s) and budget concerns come into play quite a bit on this one. :cool:


I'm beginning to understand these things. Since I don't own any system yet, I'm looking for anything to help with large sheet goods. I find them a real bear cutting them on my TS in my small shop. Thanks again for your excellent explanation. Alan in Md.

[Steve Clardy]

What's an "F" and "E"?

On another note, does it bother anyone else to be threatened in advance with calling the moderator or is it just me?

Then again I was "out" from the end of May until the end of July, maybe I missed something......
Dennis. F is Festool. E is Eureka Smart Guide.
And it doesn't bother me that the moderators are LOOKIN IN.:eek:
The last 2-3 threads on this subject got way out of hand and had to be closed, some rather heated debates. :(
So that's why they are LOOKIN IN on this one close. ;)

Steve

[Steve Clardy]

Now we're cooking. My sentiments echo most of yours. I have a table saw that I've spent lots of time and money to make accurate. I find the GCSS to be a step backward. But I feel like it is a step in the right direction as far as safety goes. I agree with John that angled and tapered cuts work great. I also love it for jointing an edge in the grain direction I choose.
Accuracy and repeatability are issues that I have with the GCSS. I have built a little jig to help with that. It remains to be seen wether this keeps me from sweetening up my cuts at the TS. The GCSS certainly makes nice clean cuts in ply (usually cleaner than the TS).
As for DC, the GCSS I have has incredible DC. It beats the heck out of my TS (which includes overhead DC guard). I cut up a number of pieces of MDF (probably 20 4' and 8' cuts) and had nothing to clean up. These were final cuts as I was scribing them to unsquare walls.

Since I started this thread, and I know the rules, here's some pics.

Pic1- My GCSS parallel/repeatability jig. It's probably not an original idea, but I simply took a piece of scrap ply and made a dado for a piece of t-track. I can see making it slicker and adding a cursor/rule if this works well. So, far only a couple cuts with it.
Pic2- GCSS jig in use. Sorry to show what brand I have, but it should work with any brand (including homemade). I did hide the saw and vac (different brand) to avoid as much brand identification as possible :cool:
Pic3- My GCSS station. Semi-permanent installation in my shop. I got some folding legs to make it a little less permanent.

Jay
Jay. That's a great jig you come up with there. But, what about keeping it square to your alum. track? Or have you found that it matters?
If it does, how about a triangle piece of wood, with two knobs, keeping the wood more square with the track when adjusting it?
Steve

[Frank Pellow]

Frank Pellow-

The guide I have, same system as yours, has a smooth fitting for the end behind the saw, etc., which tracks the hose and cord and eliminates hang-ups, as on the sharp edges on the end of the guide. I think you have to order it as an accessory, but it's a dandy one for a few bucks. It's smooth as silk once you get the vac positioned properly.

Jack

Jack I have the accessory and I use it. It makes dealing with the hose easier, but I still find that the hose gets in my way. Also, this accessory will not help when the saw is mounter on a "smart table" and that is my bigger concern.

[Jay Knoll]

As with many things in life, I think that the decisions we make are as much a function of what we already have and the constraints in which we operate. Whew, that sounds deep doesn't it! Anyway, what I mean is that perhaps it would be helpful to know what space constraints each of us operate under, and how that influences our choices. For example, if I had a big dedicated shop, then I would certainly opt for a super cabinet saw with a sliding table. However, I share the two car garage with cars and lots of other "stuff". So my table say is a Dewalt bench saw, built into the "Norm" portable stand. I've found that all it does is take up space, the dewalt can rip a 4 x 8 panel, but it still has a small fence and I need a lot of help when I"m working with large panels. I have a SCMS and a pand saw, both of which I can push around and save space.

So the GCSS alternative is becoming more appealing, especially since I anticipate a bunch of case work projects in the near future.

I would like to hear from others who are grappling with space constraints and how that influences their equipment choices.

Perhaps I'm jumping threads, but the core of my shop is SPACE to work in. I'm always moving things around, cleaning up etc to have enough space to work in. The GCSS looks like it will help me achieve accuracy without tying up a hunk of space and bucks. Given the other equipment I have, I think I can get repeatability and the ability to cut tenons safely. Am I wrong?

Jay

PS I'm in Portland Maine and sawsome onwerfully designed albeit very expensive "knock down" cherry furniture at Green Designs.

For design inspiration alone its worth a look,

Enjoy!

[Bob Marino]

This is a great post with thoughtful answers. I will probably echo some of the same thoughts as have been posted in this thread, but I will offer my perspective as some one who is a hobbyist, has a small shop (garage based), owns a Dewalt 746 TS with 52" fence and the Dewalt slider and happens to be a sales rep for Festool, so I am familiar with both systems.
I use both systems on my projects for different applications. For cutting any and all sheet goods, be they MDF or hardwood ply, in my situation, the GCSS system is the most advantageous. I have always found it a challenge, to say the least, in hoisting the sheet goods on the saw, exert just the right lateral pressure against the fence, push it through, set up the outfeed table at the correct height, worry about kickbacks and hope that I made a perfect cut. Now if I had a sliding table capable of holding and moving that 4 x 8 sheet let alone a Euro-slider, that would be a different story and I don't suggest to people with Altendorfs that they would be better off cutting that ply with the GCSS.
However, cutting angles on the sheet goods, as Bill Grumbine had mentioned in an earlier post, would and is much easier, faster and safer with a GCSS. Also making an angled cut, particularly a beveled angle cut, on a long board is a piece of cake with the GCSS. I also like the better dc on the GCSS, especially when working with MDF. And the quality of cut with my GCSS is at least the equal of anything I can get with my ts and Ridge Carbide blade. Portability for the pro cutting stock in someon'e kitchen is another area beyond my scope, but it's an adavantage to those who do so as is the uses of the GCSS system for the flooring guys.
I am leaving out some of the GCSS benefits for sure, but there are many advantages already stated for the dedicated, old fashion ts. Repeatability of the cut is one. Cutting narrow, and often very narrow, strips is another. And then there are dado cuts. Many applications are just plain better suited to the ts, don't mattter which brand.
I realize that the GCSS can be fairly easily tweaked to overcome some of its' inherent disadvantages, just as jigs can be so done for the ts, but I am talking kind of right out of the box type pros and cons, where each system excels in certain applications.
In the real world, in a reasonably well equipped shop, I don't see one system obviating the need for the other other, but rather each complementing each other, depending on the application. I would never get rid of my ts, nor suggest that a GCSS can totally replace the ts. I think that's incorrect as well as false economy. Just my quick thoughts.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

On another note, does it bother anyone else to be threatened in advance with calling the moderator or is it just me?

Then again I was "out" from the end of May until the end of July, maybe I missed something......
Yes, you missed some major "food fights" where knives and forks were flying...hence the "warning" on this particular topic.

[John Miliunas]

Yes, you missed some major "food fights" where knives and forks were flying...hence the "warning" on this particular topic.

Yeah, but they were just the plastic kind! :D :cool:

[David Rose]

Steve, it really wouldn't matter. He's using it for a spacer to get the guide consistently aligned parallel to one edge. A little error would be of no consequence. Even if he put a tape on the cross piece to measure, a slight deviation from square would have very minute effect.

David


Jay. That's a great jig you come up with there. But, what about keeping it square to your alum. track? Or have you found that it matters?
If it does, how about a triangle piece of wood, with two knobs, keeping the wood more square with the track when adjusting it?
Steve

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Yes, you missed some major "food fights" where knives and forks were flying...hence the "warning" on this particular topic.


Well that 'splains things. Thanks for the update Jim.

[Frank Pellow]

Bob, you mention dado cuts as an advantage of a TS over a GCSS. The GCSS that I am contemplating includes a router and, with it, I expect that dado cuts will be a breaze. Am I correct?

Dado cuts are certainly not a breaze with my 35 year old Crapsman table saw.

[Bob Marino]

Bob, you mention dado cuts as an advantage of a TS over a GCSS. The GCSS that I am contemplating includes a router and, with it, I expect that dado cuts will be a breaze. Am I correct?

Dado cuts are certainly not a breaze with my 35 year old Crapsman table saw.
Frank,

Yes, that is correct. I was speaking specifically to the "saw" part of the equation.

Bob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

After the great number of posts on this thread and the others that were "terminated" it would seem IMHO obvious.....all types of saw systems have their advantages and disadvantages. NO TOOL is the PERFECT tool in all applications. For a given application...use the safest, most applicable tool you have. Try to learn to use each tool to it's and your fullest ability. What's right for me, might not be right for you! Most importantly.......to the best of your ability, build with wood and ....make some sawdust! There's a tremendous shortage worldwide! :eek: :D :rolleyes: Enjoy....improve your skills and try to learn new techniques daily! :p

[JayStPeter]

Steve, it really wouldn't matter. He's using it for a spacer to get the guide consistently aligned parallel to one edge. A little error would be of no consequence. Even if he put a tape on the cross piece to measure, a slight deviation from square would have very minute effect.

David

That's correct. The jig itself is pretty darn square. And, since I'm shooting for parallel it does need to be square to the workpiece. At the end of the day, that should equate to square to the guide if all goes well.

A little use today. It works pretty decent. Lots of back and forth from end to end to get it lined up just right.

Now, something to make parts square. Anyone use the brand F angle jig? Looking at it, I'm concerned about repeatability (ie having to realign if I remove it from the guide). My other thought is just a triangle that I somehow just clamp to the back of the guide. I would like to use it in conjunction with the other jig to make matching parts though, so the angle jig seems like the right thing.

Jay

[JayStPeter]

What kind of tolerance will a GCSS hold? There has to be "room" for movement, but is this measured in fractions of thousandths or thousandths or what? I guess my real question is whether a finish cut can be just that. Will these things produce glue joints right off (out from under) the saw as some can get with a table saw? Obviously, I'm not just thinking sheet goods here. Are circular saws with a quality blade capable of this?

All I've used is a shop made guide with no control over the movement *away* from the guide. I find it very difficult to get this quality cut with my leftie PC. But I keep thinking it's me and the guide that is the problem rather than the saw and blade.

David

David,

The beauty of these systems is the marked improvement over the homemade guide setups. The joints are usually ready to glue. I use mine to "joint" an edge where I want my part at a different angle relative to the grain than came off my jointer. I don't really pay too much attention which edge is which, so I assume I must've glued some before. The quality of the cut is fantastic. The only reason I "sweeten" the cuts at the TS is to ensure parallel or square. You can see that I'm attempting to solve that problem, but it will be a while before I have the same confidence I do in the TS.
The problem with the cuts your talking is it is difficult, if not plain dangerous, to use the guide on a piece less than about 6" wide.

Jay

Jay

[Cecil Arnold]

I'll chime in late and say that Jay has started a great thread, and Alan, at least for me, has brought up my main item of interest. Those of us in small shops with limited space sometime have to spin the TS around when we go from ripping to crosscutting. My space is 11X23' with way too many tools for the floor space. About 25% of what I do is sheetgoods and something easier than a straight edge and some C clamps would definately contribute to a productivity increase and a decrease in product waste. While the F or E may one day find a place in my shop, there are other priorities for now.

[Mark Singer]

I have a jointer(DJ20) and also a portable electric planer(Hitachi). When the workpiece is very large, such as a door...I use the hand planer. When the object is manageble I use the jointer. The DJ 20 is very accurate and requires less measuring and checking to produce great results on manageable size pieces. This seems analagous to the present discussion...it is just a popular subject because CGSS saws are new and popular. I even have one! They each have their place and it it comes down to preference and the task at hand. At the end of the day ....they are just a couple of saws!

[David Rose]

Jay, I'm not sure what you are thinking about the "6" wide cuts". With my normal setup, I just bandsaw when I only need to remove less than 11 & 1/2" from one end or don't need to cut deeper than 12 & 1/2". I've built a slider and support frame to get to depths of about 3' but it is a hassle to set up. It is the 11 & 1/2" limitation to the left of the cut that leads me to the guided circular saw. You are probably gathering that my primary saw is a bandsaw. This is correct.

You have me fascinated with the cut quality of the GCSS. I think we will see some at the BBQ at Terry's in a short time. That will be interesting.

David


David,

The beauty of these systems is the marked improvement over the homemade guide setups. The joints are usually ready to glue. I use mine to "joint" an edge where I want my part at a different angle relative to the grain than came off my jointer. I don't really pay too much attention which edge is which, so I assume I must've glued some before. The quality of the cut is fantastic. The only reason I "sweeten" the cuts at the TS is to ensure parallel or square. You can see that I'm attempting to solve that problem, but it will be a while before I have the same confidence I do in the TS.
The problem with the cuts your talking is it is difficult, if not plain dangerous, to use the guide on a piece less than about 6" wide.

Jay

Jay

[Dan Mages]

This weekend I used a bar clamp and tool guide setup to crosscut some 4x8 sheets of plywood. It sure worked wonders and made things easier!!

Dan

[Paul Berendsohn]

After the past threads I fell almost silly chiming in but my purchase of a guide system was the single biggest change I've made in a dozen years of carpentry.
As someone remarked earlier, the accuracy improvement over any homemade, or inexpensive clamp wannabe "guide" is astonishing. I get much more accurate, and safe cuts on sheet goods than I ever hoped for, as well as sorts of nifty tricks that are almost impossible or at least scary on a TS. I'd be hard pressed if I was forced to decide between giving up my guide or my TS...

[Frank Pellow]

After the past threads I fell almost silly chiming in but my purchase of a guide system was the single biggest change I've made in a dozen years of carpentry.
As someone remarked earlier, the accuracy improvement over any homemade, or inexpensive clamp wannabe "guide" is astonishing. I get much more accurate, and safe cuts on sheet goods than I ever hoped for, as well as sorts of nifty tricks that are almost impossible or at least scary on a TS. I'd be hard pressed if I was forced to decide between giving up my guide or my TS...

I feel the same way about the portable quide system that I purchased about 6 months ago. :)

[Paul Berendsohn]

I'm thinking we need a secret handshake for members of the Brotherhood of The Guided Saw...

[John Miliunas]

I'm thinking we need a secret handshake for members of the Brotherhood of The Guided Saw...

Yeah, something incorporating ALL ten digits, might be appropriate! :D :cool:

[Frank Pellow]

Yeah, something incorporating ALL ten digits, might be appropriate! :D :cool:

Good response, John! I wish I had thought of it.

[Greg Mann]

When those of us with space constraints ponder the advantages of one system (TS or GCSS) over another, a point that has not been mentioned is the extra space it takes to move the plywood rather than the saw. If I am cutting up a 4x8 sheet I will need by default at least that much square footage plus a little to stand in, walk by the sheet, and end off the cut. Say 10 or 11 lineal feet. On any TS, you need that much in front of the blade and about 8 or 9 feet beyond the blade. I'll bet many of us who have wrestled a sheet of ply through the TS had to do some serious re-arranging of project space just to make a single cut. Many of you understand this and all of us can grasp it easily but I think it is important to make the distinction. Cutting on the TS will take twice as much floor space as the GCSS. Once again, this is an advantage that will be most obvious with sheet goods and not necessarily appreciated by those who are blessed with adequate space.

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

It all come down to the right tool for the right job and I'll add in...the right person! :)

There are many ways to skin the many cats here and all work for that person for their own personal reasons.

I rip/crosscut plywood all the time on my cabinet saw--these are usually precision/final cuts. I also rip/crosscut plywood as needed on my driveway/garage floor, on a 2" piece of foamboard with my Clamp-it or my straight 2x4 and my Skil worm-drive saw; these are usually rough cuts.

I have the Eurekazone stuff (everything they sells, I think) but haven't had time to use it at all. I imagine it will make my life easier and change the rough cutting to more of a finish cut.

I am a hobbyiest and have little need to travel to worksites since I do everything at home and usually for my home but that could change as my skills get better.

One thing I miss right now is good DC on my Skil saw. The Festool would take care of that very nicely.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-50.htm

I believe this is germaine to the topic here. An example of the Festool system making a 4 sided box/column using the saw tilted at 45 degrees.

[Jack Young]

Greg-

You are describing my layout. I have a room about 16' wide 22' long with double doors on one end of a longer side. To get the travel space for a sheet of ply I have to position my TS so I can work within the door itself and into the hall, at an angle, at that. The room isn't large enough for a large TS and have space for much else, so I have a small one. The GCSS is a godsend, and I'm considering a smarttable for rough initial cuts in the garage and do the finish cuts inside on my GCSS table with guide and miter.

So far, I'm getting better work even than I had expected from it. Got amazingly accurate parallel cuts to a jointed edge on 7" wide mahogany and think I could have gotten it down to about 4" safely enough, using the large collapsible table and fixed guide system on it.

Jack

[Mark Singer]

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-50.htm

I believe this is germaine to the topic here. An example of the Festool system making a 4 sided box/column using the saw tilted at 45 degrees.
Chris,
I agree since the saw is made in Gremaine!:D You could do that on a table saw too .

[JayStPeter]

There seems to be lots of responses that "you could just do that on the tablesaw quicker and easier". But, I've had the system out in my shop over the course of my current project and found myself using it as the easier solution.
I have the saw plugged into the vac and all hooked up. All I do is measure up and lay the guide on and I'm ready to go. With MDF, I don't wind up with the front of my body covered in MDF dust as it collects completely. Even with the overhead collector guard, the TS still spits dust at me.
Since I don't yet really trust myself and the system, I eventually do a batch "sweetening" on the TS of the presized parts. Hopefully, I'll eventually trust some jig or device and eliminate this step.
Since I really don't have the room for both it and the TS, I'll eventually take down the GCSS table and make it deployable. At that point, I'll go back the the TS for just about everything ... lazyness will prevail. :cool:
I sure wish I had the space for both the GCSS and TS to be ready to go. Maybe next shop :eek: .

Jay

[Chris Padilla]

Yes, Jay, the "next shop" will always solve all our problems!! :D

[Frank Pellow]

Yes, Jay, the "next shop" will always solve all our problems!! :D

It is my next shop that will be centred either on a GCSS or a cabinet table saw. I am hoping that this thread will help me to decide.

Chris, thanks for posting the link to the demo. I found that to be helpful.

[Chris Padilla]

Frank,

Are you sticking to picking one or the other or have you contemplated having both in your shop?

My thoughts are simply that there will be times when one or the other is the best choice...maybe just have both? Is that too overkill for you or your budget?

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

Are you sticking to picking one or the other or have you contemplated having both in your shop?

My thoughts are simply that there will be times when one or the other is the best choice...maybe just have both? Is that too overkill for you or your budget?

I will have both, but I am trying to decide where to spend the bulk of my budget and which to devote the most shop space to. As I said earlier in this thread: "Right now, I am leaning toward using a GCSS system (with a guided router and guided jig saw thrown into the system for good measure) as the core my new shop and investing in a small but good table saw as an auxilary piece of equipment."

[Steven Wilson]

... investing in a small but good table saw as an auxilary piece of equipement.
Just pick up a Powermatic 66 with 30" rails and you should be all set. You could also look at something like a MiniMax Lab300 or similar.

[Tom LaRussa]

Let's try to use GCSS (wether F, E, or other) and avoid brand comparisons/bashing. It's getting annoying and I'll be the first to alert the moderators to close the thread if it becomes an E vs F. I realize certain brands sell different accessories that may come into the discussion, but please try to generalize. Thanks.

JayJay,

I know I'm supposed to generalize and avoid mentioning specific products, and I apologize in advance for sort of violating that rule. I hope that if the following causes trouble our esteemed moderators will delete it post-haste...

I do not do a whole lot with sheet goods, so I don't want to devote much of my very limited tool budget to the problem. When I do work with sheet goods, however, it's a major pain in the posterior region. I'm only 5'4" tall, so bear-hugging a 4x8 sheet is not exactly an option. In addition, the ceiling in my shop/garage is only about 8'4" high, so getting one of these things ready to rip on the TS is a real adventure. (I nearly showered myself with glass just the other day when I smacked a sheet of 3/4" hardwood ply against a light fixture.)

I have looked at one or two less expensive GCSSs -- or maybe they are just semi-GCSSs? I don't know enough to say -- which I have not seen mentioned here.

So, to get to the point at last, I'd be interested in any knowledgeable opinions on these less expensive GCSSs (or pseudo-GCSSs).

Now then, without actually naming names, here is a pic of one of these maybe-GCSSs so folks can tell what I'm talking about. It retails for only $99, exclusive of the saw.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Tom

I prefer the home made jig to the one you show because you still have to guesstimate where the cutline is. With a homemade jig or either of the more expensive jigs you put the jig right on your cutline. The jig you show does not provide any control for splintering as even the homemade jig does.

If you need direction to make the homemade one I have made improvements each time I have remade mine and can give you a few tips based on the mistake that I have made making them in the past.

Just my $0.02

[Chris Padilla]

...I have remade mine and can give you a few tips based on the mistake that I have made making them in the past.
Chuck,

You didn't make any mistakes, they were learning experiences! :D

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Jay,

I know I'm supposed to generalize and avoid mentioning specific products, and I apologize in advance for sort of violating that rule. I hope that if the following causes trouble our esteemed moderators will delete it post-haste...

I do not do a whole lot with sheet goods, so I don't want to devote much of my very limited tool budget to the problem. When I do work with sheet goods, however, it's a major pain in the posterior region. I'm only 5'4" tall, so bear-hugging a 4x8 sheet is not exactly an option. In addition, the ceiling in my shop/garage is only about 8'4" high, so getting one of these things ready to rip on the TS is a real adventure. (I nearly showered myself with glass just the other day when I smacked a sheet of 3/4" hardwood ply against a light fixture.)

I have looked at one or two less expensive GCSSs -- or maybe they are just semi-GCSSs? I don't know enough to say -- which I have not seen mentioned here.

So, to get to the point at last, I'd be interested in any knowledgeable opinions on these less expensive GCSSs (or pseudo-GCSSs).

Now then, without actually naming names, here is a pic of one of these maybe-GCSSs so folks can tell what I'm talking about. It retails for only $99, exclusive of the saw.


Tom,

That's a good question as I've seen several in the Tool Crib catalogue. I'd be interested in these also but wondered if they're any good.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi Tom

I prefer the home made jig to the one you show because you still have to guesstimate where the cutline is. With a homemade jig or either of the more expensive jigs you put the jig right on your cutline. The jig you show does not provide any control for splintering as even the homemade jig does.

If you need direction to make the homemade one I have made improvements each time I have remade mine and can give you a few tips based on the mistake that I have made making them in the past.

Just my $0.02


Hi Charles,
Could you post a pic of yours or give a basic outline how you made it? I saw one that was made of hard board for the anti splintering section. This was attached to a thicker straight board for the saw guide it self. Is that how your's is made? Alan

[Charles McKinley]

Since there is an interest I'll go over the basic construction.

The basic contruction is you take a new peice of sheet goods and to make an 8' guide you rip a strip 2" or so wide from the factory edge. Flip it ontop of the piece you just cut it off of with the straight edge on the inside of the sheet. Glue and screw it down. Place the motor side of your saw foot against the straight edge, making sure the motor will clear the guiding edge, and rip you new guide free of the sheet.

The first one I made I followed the instructions from a magazine and used all 3/4 material and it was too thick. The motor hit on the guide. It really limited depth of cut due to the thickness of the base and having to raise the motor to clear the guide. It was also a pain to clamp. The clamps hit the motor.

The second one I used 1/2" material and it was nicer.

The next one I will not put the back of the guide piece on the very edge of the base. If you hold it in a couple of inches from the edge of the base you will be able to clamp the back side of the guide and have no interference with the motor.

If you can get a piece about 2" or so wide and straight on both sides you can put it in far enough on the sheet you are using for the base and run your router with a straight cut bit down the one side to make a dadoe guide and your saw down the other for a cutting guide. Clamps are put on the side you are not using and out of the way.

Write the saw and blade used to make the guide on it as saws have different widths of the base. It is nice to have the guide slightly longer than the piece you are cutting so the saw can rest on it at the beginning of the cut. I like to have one around 5' long for cross cuts

The next one will be constructed as above with a 1/2" piece for the guide and hard board for the base.

Hi Chris,

You are very right. The most important thing I learned in Grad. school; properly framing the problem is the most important part of solving the actual problem not just a symptom of it.

I'll get a pic posted tonight.

[Steve Jenkins]

Hi Tom

I prefer the home made jig to the one you show because you still have to guesstimate where the cutline is. With a homemade jig or either of the more expensive jigs you put the jig right on your cutline. The jig you show does not provide any control for splintering as even the homemade jig does.


If you want to be able to see exactly where the cut will be you could attach a piece of 1/4" hardboard or mdf onto the bottom of the angle wide enough to rip off with you circ. saw.. You would also need to attach a piece of the same material to the saw base so it would ride flat. Steve

[Frank Pellow]

Just pick up a Powermatic 66 with 30" rails and you should be all set. You could also look at something like a MiniMax Lab300 or similar.

They both qualify as good :) , but I would never pay as much as they cost for an auxilary saw. :(

[Chris Padilla]

Since there is an interest I'll go over the basic construction.
Charles,

Great points...glad to have learned from your experience. I got to thinking that along with Steve's comments, you should be able to make this jig universal for any saw/router if you have the section that gets cut off be replaceable or changeable for different saws/routers. etc.

Just a thought.....

[JayStPeter]

Tom, Alan,

I have a homemade version similar to the one Charles described. I also have versions for my router to make dados and such. For cheap construction, I used 1/4" hardboard. Some have pieces of jointed 3/4" for fences and some angle aluminum. For the circular saw one, I cut along one side with the wide side and one with the thinner side. That way, you can choose which direction you want to go just by flipping the guide around.
My former circular saw isn't a super nice one by any means. But, I had installed a nice Freud blade on it. The cuts I got on it were nowhere near as clean and nice as the ones I get now. Plus, no DC. But, it worked good for getting a 4x8 sheet into something more manageable. The router one works pretty well.

Jay

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Tom, Alan,

I have a homemade version similar to the one Charles described. I also have versions for my router to make dados and such. For cheap construction, I used 1/4" hardboard. Some have pieces of jointed 3/4" for fences and some angle aluminum. For the circular saw one, I cut along one side with the wide side and one with the thinner side. That way, you can choose which direction you want to go just by flipping the guide around.
My former circular saw isn't a super nice one by any means. But, I had installed a nice Freud blade on it. The cuts I got on it were nowhere near as clean and nice as the ones I get now. Plus, no DC. But, it worked good for getting a 4x8 sheet into something more manageable. The router one works pretty well.

Jay


Jay and Charles, Thanks for the info. One of those guides would be nice to have. Can you post a pic of yours? Thanks.

[Stewart Crick]

Interesting thread. Any thoughts on combination machines? I'm currently looking at a couple, and it seems to me they peform the functionality of both the traditional (ie: American designed) tables saw and the GCSS. Price aside, they seem like a viable option.

Stu

[Frank Pellow]

Interesting thread. Any thoughts on combination machines? I'm currently looking at a couple, and it seems to me they peform the functionality of both the traditional (ie: American designed) tables saw and the GCSS. Price aside, they seem like a viable option.

Stu
They are a great option for those with the money and the sapce. But, that option has been covered in other threads and we are trying to limit the scope of this thread.

[Stewart Crick]

I appreciate your concern Frank, and I agree that keeping the discussion on target is important. However, I think it's well within the scope of the topic to consider given that Jay said:

“…if I were in the market for a TS right now, I would consider getting something with a shorter fence.”

Functionality wise a combo machine can certainly be considered capable of performing TS functions as well as GCSS functions. Given Jay’s query regarding ways to perform TS and GCSS functions, a combo machine seems right on target. Especially since Jay did not put a cost caveat on his post; rather he offered a topic to discuss the best way to achieve specific functionalities.

My post focused on functionality, your response focused on price and space, neither a limitation Jay placed on the discussion. I believe it’s well within the scope of the topic to ask if a combo machine would give the functionality of a GCSS and a TS. Not trying to get the thread shutdown, but it seems if were going to discuss the best way to achieve a certain set of functionalities we should explore all the options.

Stu

[JayStPeter]

Stu,

The "format style" sliding table saws (in combo with other machines or not) are definitely the ideal solution if you have the space and cash. I don't think you'll find too many who disagree.
The GCSS is a way for those of us who don't have the space and/or money to get the results. The GCSS also has the advantage of being portable (not that I'd let that stop me from getting a nice euro slider if I could).
What I meant by getting a TS with shorter rails is that I no longer feel like I need a 50" ripping capacity on my TS. It could maybe free up some valuable shop real estate by cutting a couple feet off the TS width. It's sort of an "if I was starting again" type of thought. I think the combination of a 30" (or less) tablesaw, GCSS, and SCMS would do everything I require. In the past, I've always felt that 36" was the minimum acceptable rip capacity for me.

Jay

[JayStPeter]

Hi Charles,
Could you post a pic of yours or give a basic outline how you made it? I saw one that was made of hard board for the anti splintering section. This was attached to a thicker straight board for the saw guide it self. Is that how your's is made? Alan

Alan,

That's exactly what mine was. I cut along one side with the narrow side of the saw and along the other with the wide. I also made it about 8'4" by using 2 pieces of hardboard and a longer center piece. That enabled me to start the saw off the board but still against the guide. The extra size made it difficult to deal with, so now that I have a replacement, it has been destroyed. I still have a 4' one made similarly, but for the router with a 1/2" bit. I used angle aluminum instead of wood for the guide. I use it to cut dados.

Jay

[Frank Pellow]

See a description of this at http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=41707&category=1%2C240%2C45313&ccurrency=2

Has anyone had experience with this that they can report upon? The quality of Lee Valley stuff is usually excellent so I am optomistic about the system.

[Stewart Crick]

Jay,

Thanks for clarifying. Not being either a GCSS or combo machine expert, I had my suspicions, but wasn't sure whether or not there was functionality delivered by the GCSS that wasn't available with a combo.

Stu

[Greg Mann]

See a description of this at http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&page=41707&category=1%2C240%2C45313&ccurrency=2

Has anyone had experience with this that they can report upon? The quality of Lee Valley stuff is usually excellent so I am optomistic about the system.
Frank,

The LeeValley system looks like an upgraded Tru-Grip with a few adapters for saw, router, etc. Since you already have a GCSS, I would consider using the investment you might make there to enhance the system you already have, especially since you are considering more investments within that system already and it is a world-class collection of products. DAMHIKT:D My thoughts are that you-know-who has already done the designing and refining for you so that everything will work together as they intended. Gee, do you think anybody will guess who I am talking about?:D :D

Greg

[Greg Mann]

Interesting thread. Any thoughts on combination machines? I'm currently looking at a couple, and it seems to me they peform the functionality of both the traditional (ie: American designed) tables saw and the GCSS. Price aside, they seem like a viable option.

Stu
Stu,

I think it has been pretty well agreed upon that a good combo can eclipse the capabilities of conventional TSs and GCSSs with a few important concessions to price, portability and space. If those three things were of no consequence, all our threads would be titled 'Altendorf or Felder?':rolleyes:

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

Gee, do you think anybody will guess who I am talking about?:D :D

Greg
[mod hat on]
Greg, Greg, Greg...you walk a mighty fine line here...Mighty fine...
[mod hat off]

:D ...jest bustin' yer chops.... ;)

[Chris Padilla]

...would be titled 'Altendorf or Felder?':rolleyes:

Greg
...or MiniMax....

[Dennis Peacock]

On another note, does it bother anyone else to be threatened in advance with calling the moderator or is it just me?


Dennis M......

There is no "threat" here.....Just advanced notice that this topic has already gotten out of hand before and very easily could again and is simply being watched closely. ;)

[Greg Mann]

...or MiniMax....
Exactly, Chriss. Just picked two out of my hat. Besides you just told Betsy you got a Grizz.:D

Greg

[Greg Mann]

Dennis M......

There is no "threat" here.....Just advanced notice that this topic has already gotten out of hand before and very easily could again and is simply being watched closely. ;)
Dennis P. is exactly right here. Or to paraphrase him: "If you can't be kind, at least have enough skill to be funny."

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis can you elaborate on why you think it would be good to have both. I have "F" and I would like a good reason to also purchase "E" and to give them both shop space.

Frank,

Thanks for the PM to remind me to respond to this question. ;) :p

I was thinking about it the "other way around"....or maybe not. :rolleyes:

I have a sliding table for sheetgoods on my Robland X31. Is it accurate? Nope. Do I use it for sheetgoods when accuracy counts? Nope.

I have a Jet JTAS-10XL Cabinet Saw. Do I use it for cutting sheetgoods? Yup shore do. Is it accurate? A lot more accurate that my other saw, so I use it for almost all of my sheetgoods cutting.

Way back when....and that's not too many years ago :rolleyes: I purchased a pair of 4' straight edges with a piece that would make them both into an 8' straight edge and by using the 2 supplies C-clamps I would line it up at 2-1/2" from my mark (on both sides) and make a cut following the rail of this little guide to make a straight cut and fairly accurate cut on sheetgoods. Worked very well for what I needed it for.

Have I fussed and fumed over cutting dado's and cutting sheetgoods with a straight edge guide? Yup shore have.

The TS is the honest heart of my shop and I use it for a LOT of cutting and ripping. Out of all the years I've been doing woodworking and using a TS (about 36 years now) I have only experienced kickback ONE TIME. That was because I was too cheap to buy a piece of decent lumber to rip and used a severly twisted piece instead and it caused me 6 weeks of wearing a chest bruise.!! :eek: Do I use overarm guards? Nope. Do I use a splitter? Nope, never have. With good planning and careful cutting with a well aligned machine, kickback is minimized....not eliminated....but reduced. Now, don't get on me for not using 100 different safety items on my TS. I do what I do and you do what you do. End of that debat ok.

There are many needs at times for a good guide system. I would get guide "1" because I already have a nice skill saw and want to use it since I am already used to the saw and how it handles. I would also use guide "1" because it will adapt to my existing router for router cuts with a guide system.

<b>However!!!!</b>

I would get guide "system" 2, and notice I said "system" because the only other one I have considered is part of a complete system to include the saw and router for the specific guide system. I would get this entire setup for use in my shop when I'm operating under "closed doors" to keep in the heat and cool during various seasons due to the superior dust collection abilities of the total guide "system". There are other features of the power tools that are part of this system that make this a great choice.

In short, a guide-rail system is a guide rail system. Have I ever used guide "1" or guide "system 2"? Nope....but I have done an awful lot of pretty accurate cutting with a simple piece of angle-iron and a couple of C-clamps. Will I ever buy a guide rail setup? More than likely so. Will it be a complete system setup or will it be a guide rail that I can use my existing tools with? That depends on how deep my pockets are at the time I have the need for this particular setup. Will it replace my TS? NEVER!!!!!

My overall decision will be strongly based on the review of the two setups at the Dallas BBQ in October. :D

[Chris Padilla]

Will we have a set-up in AR in September?? I can bring my E stuff if you like. In fact, YCF sent me 5 SmartBases and I plan to distribute them around in some fashion I've yet to figure out. I don't have an F system, however.

[Dennis Peacock]

Will we have a set-up in AR in September?? I can bring my E stuff if you like. In fact, YCF sent me 5 SmartBases and I plan to distribute them around in some fashion I've yet to figure out. I don't have an F system, however.

Save me one Chris....I want to do a review of things I can get my hands on. :D

If I had the money I would buy BOTH setups and properly evaluate them and post them with pics and findings. I just can't get my hands on both setups at the moment without spending a "bundle" that I don't have at the moment. :eek: :D

[Dennis Peacock]

I did mention that I saw it would be good to have both setups.

Let me clear that up. The guide "system" would be beneficial in a sense to where I would have it set in the shop for a more permanent use for speed and repeatability. I would own guide "1" because I could use it for quick cuts, more accurate cuts than my current setup, repeatability and maybe even use it as much as I would the other setup. Cost overall is a factor for me. I would love to have both setups in the shop. Not because I like collecting tools....but because I strongly belive that there are benefits to both systems. One for lower initial cost to get a guide rail in the shop, its accuracy and repeatability and the use of a saw I'm already very familiar with, the other for what I would classify as a total system solution.

I really can't say more as I don't have a hands-on experience with either of them.....wish I did....but I don't. :rolleyes:

[Scott Coffelt]

Now Chris, don't forget to accidentally leave one of those "E" things in my shop for a Santa Clause surprise. :rolleyes: Of course, I hope to some day be able to afford the "F" system, too.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

" of wearing a chest bruise.!! Do I use overarm guards? Nope. Do I use a splitter? Nope, never have. With good planning and careful cutting with a well aligned machine, kickback is minimized....not eliminated....but reduced. Now, don't get on me for not using 100 different safety items on my TS. I do what I do and you do what you do. End of that"

You know David Marks doesn't use a splitter or a guard at least on his tv show. I wonder what his and you rationale is on this. I'm not criticising you Dennis or David Marks for that matter. I assume he has not had too many if any problems with his technique. I just wondered why you never adopted these safey devices? If this is an off bounds subject for you then disregard this question. I was just wondering. Alan in Md.

[Dennis Peacock]

You know David Marks doesn't use a splitter or a guard at least on his tv show. I wonder what his and you rationale is on this. I'm not criticising you Dennis or David Marks for that matter. I assume he has not had too many if any problems with his technique. I just wondered why you never adopted these safey devices? If this is an off bounds subject for you then disregard this question. I was just wondering. Alan in Md.

Alan,

I learned using the TS without any guards and such and I've always done it that way. No real reason other that additional expense and "fid-ling" with things to get them to work properly and such. I have a Micro-Jig splitter but I have yet to install it. I will in time....I just have too many other projects that I HAVE to get done in the next 6 weeks....or else!!!! The only real thing I have strongly considered is an overarm guard and the Micro-Jig splitter. These seem to not get in the way of how I work and can be easily moved/removed when needed.

Once kickback incident in many years of woodworking? I guess I'm forturnate. :D

[Steve Jenkins]

My overall decision will be strongly based on the review of the two setups at the Dallas BBQ in October. :D

Dennis, if you can get away a day early you are more than welcome to spend as much time as you want messing with the two GCSS's. I will have plenty of panel stock and can always get more if needed. Anyone else that wants to is welcome too. It will be less crowded too. Steve

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

...

My overall decision will be strongly based on the review of the two setups at the Dallas BBQ in October. :D

Thanks for the response Dennis.

I am really looking forward to reading the reviews. I wish that i could be there to try out the systems myself.

[Steve Jenkins]

Thanks for the response Dennis.

I am really looking forward to reading the reviews. I wish that i could be there to try out the systems myself.


Hop on a plane and come on down Frank. You're travel time would be less than half Dennis's. Probably find a great rate this far in advance:>) Steve

[Frank Pellow]

Hop on a plane and come on down Frank. You're travel time would be less than half Dennis's. Probably find a great rate this far in advance:>) Steve

Thanks, maybe next year.

Although I am retired, October is already FULLY booked. :(

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis, if you can get away a day early you are more than welcome to spend as much time as you want messing with the two GCSS's. I will have plenty of panel stock and can always get more if needed. Anyone else that wants to is welcome too. It will be less crowded too. Steve

I'm going to try and be there by 11AM Friday, start getting "familiar" with the two setups and then start trying them out. Pics....of course....lots of pics.

Terry Hatfield.....??? You coming to ride with me?

[Steve Jenkins]

Sounds good Dennis. Steve

[Chris Padilla]

Scott/Jack,

What time will be in Springdale on Friday? I'll have, ahem, 4 SmartBases with me (probably misplace one somewhere me thinks...).

Should I bring my E system? It is all still in the original boxes...might all fit in a suitcase with the B stuff! :D

[Scott Coffelt]

It's about 3 - 3 1/2 hours to Sprintgfield I think, we'll spend some time in the Grizzly store and then head to Arkansas, not sure how long it will take to get there from Springfiled, but we should be there in plenty of time for the afternoon/evening festivities.

[Jerry Golick]

Hi everyone,

I know this thread is somewhat old, but as a new member I thought I'd throw in my .02 - fwiw.

I've been using a CSGS for about 6 months now. I chose it over a table saw because:

- I felt it was safer
- I felt it was cleaner
-NB: I have the F system with the dust extractor
- It meant I didn't have to purchase a SCMS
- I am mostly working with full size sheet materials (melamine and MDF in particular) and manhandling that weight on a TS didn't look like fun
- The system does a very good job minimizing chip out on the melamine for a reasonable cost
- It was portable
- Angle cuts are trivial to make both ripping and cross cutting
- It doesn't take up too much room
- Its great for cabinet making and flooring type jobs
- There are more accessories available that I can add over time to increase its functionality
- Replacement blades are fairly low cost.

Downsides - have mostly been mentioned so far - but I am still sold on my CSGS.

Overall I find the system very accurate and easy to use.

[Steve Clardy]

After rereading this post again I though I would post here again.
I got my Eureka system up and running and took it to the CCBBC.
Had quite a bit of interest in it.
I personally say that it does a great job. Though it will not replace my table saw, it will be very handy end cutting panels. I will also use it on job sites where I need to rip panel stock.
The anti chip is great. It is almost impossible to have chipout on plywood, especially on end cuts.

Steve

[Richard Blaine]

I got my Eureka system up and running and took it to the CCBBC.
Had quite a bit of interest in it.
Steve
I'm curious as to what brand and model saw you are using, and whether you mounted it with double stick tape or screws.

Anybody else with this system, please chime in with your choice of saw and method of attachment.

[John Miliunas]

I'm curious as to what brand and model saw you are using, and whether you mounted it with double stick tape or screws.

Anybody else with this system, please chime in with your choice of saw and method of attachment.

Richard, I have the same system and concur with all Steve has said about it. Neat system, no tearout, very portable and extremely versatile. As for saw, I've actually used my system with two different saws. First was a Dewalt with a CMT blade and I had the base screwed on. Worked very well, but kicked up a storm of dust, as does any regular circular saw. Then, for my B-day, I was gifted a Ryobi 7-1/4" with a dust port on the back. On this one, I decided to just try the base with double-stick. It works BUT, I have found that it like to get a bit loose. I will be re-doing it and drilling holes, so that I can fasten the base with screws. The DC port, by the way, does a pretty admirable job. It get the bulk of the chips, especially those which seemed to kick off the back of the saw and make their way up toward the eyes and mouth. :) There still is a fair amount of sawdust, which escapes off to the side of the blade, as well as off the front. Still better than stock, though. :) :cool:

[Paul Berendsohn]

As has been ummm well documented I'm a big ummmm (looking around nervously for moderator) ... Eureka SmartGuide fan. I've used the Ryobi saw mentioned previously and it did quite a good job. On my second set up I popped for a Porter Cable 325 Mag and installed a Diablo blade on it. No question that I get superior performance from this saw/blade combo albeit at a price of nearly three times the Ryobi. I also use the double stick tape and haven't had any loosening on it myself. Largely for jollies, I made a cut with the OE "Framer" blade, and then with the Freud. Attached is a rather large image of the results for anyone interested...

Best Wishes to all...

Paul

[Steve Clardy]

I'm curious as to what brand and model saw you are using, and whether you mounted it with double stick tape or screws.

Anybody else with this system, please chime in with your choice of saw and method of attachment.
Hi Richard. I opted to bolt my base on over using the tape. I have only one saw, and figured if I need to remove the base, it would be lots easier than dealing with the tape.
I am using my Porter Cable framers saw, model 447. It has a nice large base, and set in the E base real nice. I did have to remove some of the casting ribs on the pc base with a rotozip bit. So the bolt heads and washers would set down flatter. After drilling the holes and finding the bolts and washers sitting at an angle didn't suit me. Some of the other brands of saws with the stamped metal base probably won't have that problem.

Steve

[Curt Putnam]

The question is: are or will current practices be modified by guide systems.

The answer is yes & yes. I do not possess the skills to cut an 8' line without a guide. The question then rapidly devolves into what system? I believe that the major contenders will do what they claim to do equally well. So the question then breaks down into what saw(s) and what blade(s).

The only commonly available blade (that I know of) that does a decent job is the Freud 40 tooth. It's only made in 7 1/4" which leaves out the PC trim saws and SawBoss. One problem, for me, is that blade right saws are incomprehensible and reprehensible - I just can't function with them. However, with a good guide I suppose I can manage to avoid cutting me. It seems to me that a required part of the equation is a saw that has close to zero runout. PCs, Festool (and maybe others) seem to be that good.

So, one system allows one to mix and match gear and the other requires a total marriage. OTOH, if one has to buy a saw anyway, then the systems are comparably priced (ignoring vacuums.)

Watching & Reading,

Curt

[Mark Blumer]

I have a basement shop with a single entry...an internal set of stairs with a 90 degree twist at both top and bottom. I have a very good and very heavy table saw (I don't want to remember what I had to do to get it down to my shop) but it is physically impossible to get a full sheet of 3/4" plywood or MDF down my stairs. I recently bought a GCSS to aid in precutting the sheet goods in my garage before I bring the wood down to the shop. I expect that it really will make a huge difference in my ability to make projects based on sheet goods.

Mark Blumer (East Lansing, MI)

[Bart Leetch]

Tom LaRussa

." It seems to me that a Band-saw is another superior method for cutting tenons -- it cuts slower, so you have more chance to fix a cut before it goes completely wrong, plus you can get a lot closer to the action, so can see what the heck you're doing. Sure, one certainly could damage oneself quite badly with a band-saw

Tom I believe that if you use a tenoning jig you'll find that the cheek cuts for a tenon are smoother on a Table-saw than when done on a Band-saw.
Also your hands don't come anywhere close to the blade & the material is clamped solid in the jig & you can see what your doing. All this was pointed out by Norm Abrams as the reason that they use the Table-saw to cut tenons on a resent show. :)

[Tom LaRussa]

Bart,


Tom I believe that if you use a tenoning jig you'll find that the cheek cuts for a tenon are smoother on a Table-saw than when done on a Band-saw.
That's probably true, but Bob Smalser makes the point that tenons should always be cut outside the lines anyway and finished with a hand plane. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13260



Also your hands don't come anywhere close to the blade
Your hands don't come anywhere close to the blade -- except by accident. And a table saw accident is generally going to be much bloodier than a band saw accident, IMHO.


& the material is clamped solid in the jig & you can see what your doing.
I don't think it's so much that you can see what you're doing. It's more that you don't need to see what you're doing. You simply set up the mechanical process and the machine does the woodworking for you while you watch.

I like Norm. He's a great carpenter -- but that's also his problem. He thinks like a framer, not a cabinet maker. He produces one-offs but his methods are those of the factory. Maybe if Lie-Nielsen gave him a few thousand dollars worth of planes... ;)

[Steve Jenkins]

I don't expect that a gcss will ever replace my ALtendorf BUT I actually did use one the other day on a project. I was making a template for table legs that was sort of in the shape of a boomerang except the edges were straight.
Four edges four different angles. Rather than messing around on the big saw I just used the guide. Lined it up on the marks and cut,moved to the next ones and cut. At that point I didn't know or care what the exact angles were, I just knew it looked right. When I had to glue up stock for the legs of course I had to measure the angles but the guide sure made it easier and faster to cut out the template.

[Tom LaRussa]

Have/Will Guided Saw Systems Changed Your Shop?
After my recent disaster with the plywood cascade -- http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12951 -- I have to answer NO to this question.

Why?

Because I have made a solemn vow that no full sheet of anything will ever enter my shop again!

If I simply must use plywood (or MDF or whatever) to build something, I will have it ripped slightly oversized by the supplier and cut it to fit on my TS.