A question that needs to be asked...

[Joe Tonich]

Can one learn and improve his/her turning skills and 'eye' for design if all they get are 'Attaboys'?

There have been some posts here that beg the question, IMHO.

It is my opinion that people need CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of their work to continually improve. If all they get are attaboys, they will get in a rut and their skills quit improving. Everything they turn will look the same as everything they turned yesterday, last month, last year...

I haven't turned much since I blew out my arm/shoulder a few years ago. I used to lurk here a lot, then less and less, as some members here flame others who dare criticise their turnings. I feel, if your showing what you turned here, you aught to be mature enough to take others opinions of it. There are a lot of great turnings by members here, but there are a lot that could use some criticism also. I always asked for it as that way my skills could grow. Believe me, I've turned some humdingers, and appreciated it when people told me where I messed up.

I hardly post because I'm not into 'attaboys'. Lifes too short to have to worry about offending someone with my opinion. If you don't want any opinions, please put it in your post....or a 'I'll be offended if you don't like it and try to teach me by your experiences' in the sig. line.

Please don't whoop me for this, I'm just wondering how everyone else feels about this subject. :confused:

[alex carey]

I definitely prefer criticism over attaboys. I am a self taught young turner who needs all the help he can get. I think I've done alright for myself but the more criticism the better in my opinion.

There is definitely a lot of "attaboy" attitude but often that is just fine. Many people post their work and do not ask for critiques and many of us newer turners don't have much advice to give to the older and "wiser" turners. ;)

Generally if a critique is asked someone will usually chime in. I think the key is to keep things positive though, often if too many critiques are given especially by the pros the newer people and even the intermediate people might be too intimidated to post again.

Like I said though, if I get 20 critiques and 1 attaboy I am more than happy.

Alex

[Bruce McElhaney]

That's a great question, Joe. I don't want to whoop on anyone, but I've seen a lot of stuff here get kudos that didn't really deserve 'em, IMHO. Of course it takes guts to stick your neck out and ask for honest criticism. OTOH, I'd venture a guess that many who post pics of their work aren't really looking for honest constructive criticism. They're mostly looking for some show and tell. attaboys.

Overall, most posted work here gets positive responses regardless, although some more enthusiastic than others. So the bar appears to be shifted up a bit here, and a standard polite response of, "Nice work" is kinda, ho hum and not worth as much as it should be.

[Norm Zax]

Poll has a missing option: "An ocassional attaboy for encouragement along with tips for improvement".
Attaboys have a great purpose and thats encouraging you along. We all know how addictive this hobby is but if you were a starter getting only criticism, you will bend and eventually break. Superb work gets Wows. Anything under that shouyld deserve a mix - well done, next time try to...
My 2c,
Norm

[Mark Norman]

Attaboy Joe!

:D

[George Guadiane]

Poll has a missing option: "An ocassional attaboy for encouragement along with tips for improvement".
Attaboys have a great purpose and thats encouraging you along. We all know how addictive this hobby is but if you were a starter getting only criticism, you will bend and eventually break. Superb work gets Wows. Anything under that shouyld deserve a mix - well done, next time try to...
My 2c,
Norm

I think Norm pretty much nailed it!
By now, MY skin is pretty thick, so I feel like I can take it, and to be honest, other than the odd piece, I kinda know where I missed the mark, BUT, I would still rather hear the CONSTRUCTIVE criticism (along with an "atta boy" encouragement is fine).


I started spending time on these sites with the express intent of learning whatever I could from whomever was willing to help. I understood (understand) that I don't know everything and I'm not already perfect.


When I have put myself out there, ASKING for critique, I have actually wanted to hear the truth. I want people to tell me what they think and why... A little "and here is how I would approach this issue" would be good too.

PROBLEM: I feel like I'm a decent turner (and a GOOD sander), but OFTEN, I don't feel comfortable giving critiques, because I don't want to offend... When I don't really know the other person, have a common language/terminology, I MIGHT say something innocent (or in fun) that gets taken the wrong way, so I often choose to say nothing "critical" about form, orientation of the wood, finish, etc. rather than risk offending.
Besides, I'm only so qualified in the first place, I mean I'm not going to tell David Elsworth how he could improve a piece. And there are a lot of really great turners on this site, for instance who really do great work, to which I have little if anything constructive to add - "the form could use a little more/less curve - it looks like you have a flat spot on the bottom 1/3 of this form - I notice that you have posted pictures of several pieces in that form, I think they would look more elegant if you..." Stuff like that.

My critique request often reeds:

"As Always, All Questions, Comments and Critiques Welcome
(and I CAN handle the truth)."


My intent was to let people willing to comment know that I WANT to know how I can get better. I think that we can let each other know what we want by how we ask for comments:
"Isn't this GREAT" would get one kind of response, etc.

[Steve Trauthwein]

I agree with George about not wanting to offend anyone. Another aspect of this is the format. When one reads a critic or opine without other input (ie facial expressions, timber of voice, body language, etc.) then a whole range of intent is missing. People will often mistake your intent when these critical communication components are present. When this mixture is absent then the object of the remarks must supply them, and that is when the trouble begins.

I think if one is really intent on learning they need to develop a critical eye of their own and ask a question about a technique or curve or color. I also believe that many post here for the boost that comes from a few friendly comments, any pros that have critiqued my work have picked the piece up and completely run their hands and eyes over it.

Really good question! (I hope that is not too much praise?)

Regards, Steve

[Joe Tonich]

I'm not saying that you can't give an Attaboy with your opinion....:(
I agree that superb work should get wows, and anything under that should deserve a mix - well done, next time try to...but how often do you see that happen? I always mix in something good with any criticism I have. It's important to know what you did right AND what you could correct in future turnings..ie..flat spots in the curves, bases being too large, etc....

JMHO.

[Don Eddard]

OK, I responded once to this thread and it already got poofed. Let's try again in a little less specific manner. :rolleyes:

I believe the majority of the people here genuinely want to improve their work, and look for constructive feedback to do so. And I'm talking about the entire range of skills, from rank beginner to seasoned professional. However, it's obvious that there are some individuals here who don't really want to hear suggestions for improving their work or the presentation of same. That's fine, it's their loss, and their work will always retain the amateur, made in the garage look it currently has. All they want are sugar-coated attaboys and pats on the back for producing and presenting mediocre work, and a number of regulars here seem to be willing to pile on the praise for it, while absolutely ignoring glaring problems in the work or presentation.

I agree everyone can use some positive reinforcement from time to time, especially beginners who are earnestly trying to learn and improve their skills. But when an experienced professional turner instantly attacks anyone who doesn't gasp in awe at his work, and refuses to accept that there is room for improvement in their work, I have a problem with that, and lose my incentive to be complimentary. Especially when there are simple things that could be done to improve their product.

I have been attacked on this forum for not sugar-coating my suggestions, called names because I prefer not to post pictures of my work, and berated for not paying the $6.00 for the "Contributor" tag next to my name. And yet I have never insulted or degraded anyone's work, I've only offered valid suggestions or opinions. I may come off brash, but I don't think anyone has disputed my suggestions. They've only taken offense that I offered them. I suspect it'd make a handful of people happy if I'd just storm off like a hurt little boy and stay away from the forum. Well you know what? It ain't gonna happen. Unlike some of the people here, I can take it as well as dish it. I learn a lot from this forum, and like it or not, I'm willing to share some of my experience in return.

[Barry Elder]

As Joe said, criticism needs to have a "constructive" bent. Otherwise it is just a "rant". "Attaboys" have their place also, but "silence" is golden! There have been some posts and pictures here that only rated "silence", but they are few. Once you realize that you can reveal the beauty in the piece of wood that God created for you to use, then you can use your brain to create different forms such as bowls, plates, platters, hollow forms, candlesticks, pens, etc., to reveal that beauty so others can see and admire it. Keep turnin' and learnin'!

[Harvey Schneider]

I agree with just about every thing that has been said here, but there is an important attribute that has been overlooked. Style, or sense of design, is not universal.
While critique of technique is fairly straight forward, individual sense of design is not. In order to be understood and accepted, critique of design needs to be expressed as opinion not as absolute.
I have seen people in one of the woodturning groups I belong to pick up a piece that I would have tossed in the scrap heap, and say, "I love this, isn't it charming?" To them the piece appealed to some inner value that I do not share.
So my feeling is that opinions that are expressed as truth can hurt and offend. Opinions that are carefully expressed as what they really are (personal preference) help to educate us as to how others respond to our work.
Just my two cents worth.

[Gary Max]

If everytime I post a pic here the same person bashes it---whats the point in posting. The reason I post pics is to share----nothing more----If I was trying to show off I would only post pics of finished work.
I have no trouble with "CONSTRUCTIVE criticism ".
Oh ----the stupid PM's from the same cheap jeck just add to the problem.

[Hilel Salomon]

Harvey and Norm are right on the money. This forum attracts many beginners and they need encouragement more than criticism. Unless a person asks for honest appraisals and constructive advice, "attaboys" are the best response.
Almost everything I've ever done, in academics, sports and hobbies, I've begun haltingly. I always knew that "attaboys" were encouragements to keep on learning and improving. If all I ever got was "Oh brother" I might not have continued. Certainly very sensitive people might choose to give up.
As someone who desperately needs some training to progress, I usually offer a picture of my work just to let my forum friends know that I'm trying. When, and I almost always do, I ask for advice, I'm prepared to listen and learn. Keep in mind that taste and preferences vary dramatically and the advice or commentaries that come in may be contradictory. Advice givers also have to take that into consideration and not get into a snit when their advice is not taken.
Of course, I offer that advice cautiously.
Hilel.

[RL Johnson]

I have to agree with Harvey. I find my taste do not agree with most of the general public. I remember turning a purple pen once and then I received 5 more request for purple pens. I just hate purple:(, but many people love purple. Am I right and they wrong? I don't think so but I would hate to offer some constructive criticism to someone who's design or color is not to my liking but could be a well excuted turning.
New turners are trying to master their tools and techniques and need all the encouragement they can get. It is a fine line you walk to criticise a new turner and inadvertently crush their desire to turn. That is why I try to only comment on turnings when asked by the turner. After all they are only getting what they asked but again any criticism must be offered to encourage the turner to improve what is being criticized; be that form, function, color, proportion, type of wood or some other attribute. IMHO.

[Neal Addy]

Nice form and finish, Joe! :D

[Scott Lux]

I don't often post because my stuff is more worthy of critique than praise.

It seems to me that there is a sticky post about the rules of criticism. When I post wanting critique, I'll be sure to ask for it.

Lux

[Wally Dickerman]

I agree with most that "attaboys" aren't any help to a turner that is trying to learn. However, I feel that unless a critique is asked for, then if you want to comment. an attaboy is all that should be given. There are a lot fragile egos out there.

A forum like this one is a good place to learn, so if you want help and advice, ask for it. I, along with others will offer suggestions. If you just want to showcase your latest work and don't ask for comments, then attaboys is what you should expect to receive.

As a long time woodturning teacher, I have given a lot of critiques, I do try to make it a point to offer a posititive comment before giving a negative one.

Wally

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This was addressed IIRC sometime back by Chris Hartley I thought.

If someone one wants a critique...put in the thread "Critiques Welcome" ...if they want comments...."Comments Welcome" .....If encouraging both...."Critiques and Comments Welcome".

The problem with giving critiques or constructive criticisms lies in a couple areas IMHO:

1. You can critique something without be brash, crude or unkind. If you can't, you need to work on your social skills and/or your use of the English language.

2. I have not seen an absolute definitive list of rules and guidelines on turning form and finish voted on and approved by any governing body. What looks like a sows ear in my eyes may be a silk purse in your eyes. This is especially true in form. Maybe...just maybe....I planned that flat area within the curve. You may not like it but I do. You can say you don't care for it....or in your opinion it would be more pleasing if the flat area didn't appear in the middle of the curve without be brash, crude or unkind.

[Malcolm Tibbetts]

It's hard for one to learn anything when one is doing all the talking. Giving good critique (when requested) is an art form in itself. Something positive can always be found in any piece - just that fact that the maker attempted to creative something. It's also important to be a good listener - knowing how to sort through the suggestions and not to take any constructive criticism personal.:)

[Kaptan J.W. Meek]

I think we're all grown ups on this forum.. Grown ups should be able to handle a little constructive critique. I know sometimes my finials lack nice curves, I know sometimes my bowl feet are a little heavy. I've seen some pieces on here that are "basic".. Some that were fantastic, and some that were a waste of good wood. I've found in some cases, the old: "If you can't say anything nice" rule, is probably the best approach. If you ask for the "CC" you should get it. If you don't ask, you don't get advice. If you can't handle it, Don't post it.

[George Guadiane]

OK, I responded once to this thread and it already got poofed. Let's try again in a little less specific manner. :rolleyes:

I believe the majority of the people here genuinely want to improve their work, and look for constructive feedback to do so. And I'm talking about the entire range of skills, from rank beginner to seasoned professional. However, it's obvious that there are some individuals here who don't really want to hear suggestions for improving their work or the presentation of same. That's fine, it's their loss, and their work will always retain the amateur, made in the garage look it currently has. All they want are sugar-coated attaboys and pats on the back for producing and presenting mediocre work, and a number of regulars here seem to be willing to pile on the praise for it, while absolutely ignoring glaring problems in the work or presentation.

I agree everyone can use some positive reinforcement from time to time, especially beginners who are earnestly trying to learn and improve their skills. But when an experienced professional turner instantly attacks anyone who doesn't gasp in awe at his work, and refuses to accept that there is room for improvement in their work, I have a problem with that, and lose my incentive to be complimentary. Especially when there are simple things that could be done to improve their product.

I have been attacked on this forum for not sugar-coating my suggestions, called names because I prefer not to post pictures of my work, and berated for not paying the $6.00 for the "Contributor" tag next to my name. And yet I have never insulted or degraded anyone's work, I've only offered valid suggestions or opinions. I may come off brash, but I don't think anyone has disputed my suggestions. They've only taken offense that I offered them. I suspect it'd make a handful of people happy if I'd just storm off like a hurt little boy and stay away from the forum. Well you know what? It ain't gonna happen. Unlike some of the people here, I can take it as well as dish it. I learn a lot from this forum, and like it or not, I'm willing to share some of my experience in return.

Don,
I don't disagree with you that there are times when I see undeserved "atta boys," but...
IMO, the general tone of THIS post sounds angry and defensive.
The "not sugar-coating my suggestions" - "like it or not" aspects of this post may put a point on why you may not be well received. There are gracious ways to say, "overall, this piece is crap." From THIS post, it sounds (to me) like this is an area where you could use some work. I could go on, in more detail, describing each area where I feel like your tone probably has more to do with how you are received than anything else, but I think that would be piling on.
You said you can take it, I hope this came across as constructive.

I was HAMMERED by someone else on another site, not about finish or materials, but about TASTE, design, form - the only thing that is subjective. Now I respect this person and their work, and have gotten EXCELLENT insight from this person in the past, but MOST of the comment made was WAY beyond the pale and completely out of line. When this person pointed out flat spots in my "perfect" curves, I was forced to look at them and refine them (it made me better), but this particular comment suggested that I should start thinking about doing something else, because this one piece (and it's design) might be my undoing.


If everytime I post a pic here the same person bashes it---whats the point in posting. The reason I post pics is to share----nothing more----If I was trying to show off I would only post pics of finished work.
I have no trouble with "CONSTRUCTIVE criticism ".
Oh ----the stupid PM's from the same cheap jeck just add to the problem.

Gary,
Since I don't have an example of what you are talking about, I can't comment on the specifics, but it SOUNDS like this is a person you could block from your view and live a happier life.
On the other hand, I have to ask, like it or not, is the "bashing" relevant, or is it mostly mean spirited?


I agree with just about every thing that has been said here, but there is an important attribute that has been overlooked. Style, or sense of design, is not universal.
While critique of technique is fairly straight forward, individual sense of design is not. In order to be understood and accepted, critique of design needs to be expressed as opinion not as absolute.
I have seen people in one of the woodturning groups I belong to pick up a piece that I would have tossed in the scrap heap, and say, "I love this, isn't it charming?" To them the piece appealed to some inner value that I do not share.
So my feeling is that opinions that are expressed as truth can hurt and offend. Opinions that are carefully expressed as what they really are (personal preference) help to educate us as to how others respond to our work.
Just my two cents worth.

Harvey,
I see the expression "nice form" on here often enough that I'm left wondering what it really means to the people who post it... Much of the time, I would be more likely to say "interesting form," because it doesn't fit any of the classic definitions of "nice" form.
I am toying with some multi-axis stuff, I KNOW I don't have it yet, and would be embarrassed to hear "nice form" on those, they don't have nice form... But the idea WILL yield some cool stuff soon.


Harvey and Norm are right on the money. This forum attracts many beginners and they need encouragement more than criticism. Unless a person asks for honest appraisals and constructive advice, "attaboys" are the best response.
Almost everything I've ever done, in academics, sports and hobbies, I've begun haltingly. I always knew that "attaboys" were encouragements to keep on learning and improving. If all I ever got was "Oh brother" I might not have continued. Certainly very sensitive people might choose to give up.
As someone who desperately needs some training to progress, I usually offer a picture of my work just to let my forum friends know that I'm trying. When, and I almost always do, I ask for advice, I'm prepared to listen and learn. Keep in mind that taste and preferences vary dramatically and the advice or commentaries that come in may be contradictory. Advice givers also have to take that into consideration and not get into a snit when their advice is not taken.
Of course, I offer that advice cautiously.
Hilel.

PERFECT form and finish!


The First one (Koa) was TRASHED as a "critique." The other two are the all turned multi axis concept I am working on.

[George Guadiane]

If you don't ask, you don't get advice. If you can't handle it, Don't post it.
I would say that anyone should be able to post anything (on topic) without fear... If you ask for comments, be prepared to hear comments.
When I make a comment, I will try to be constructive, but honest.

[Keith Burns]

George, I vaguely remember the comments on that piece but don't remember the piece being trashed. Anyway I went back to view the comments and it appeares you have deleted your album from that site. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Curt Fuller]

That's fine, it's their loss, and their work will always retain the amateur, made in the garage look it currently has.



Hey, hey, hey! Don I was going along with you pretty good until you said that. I happen to be very proud of my "made in the garage" look;).

For my 2 cents on this, but first, thank you Joe Tonich for asking the question that seems to hang in everyone's mind. Sometimes we get critiques and opinions confused. In my opinion, a turning might be awful, something I don't like at all. But in critique it might get gold stars in every catagory for the skills, talents, and abilities of the turner, etc. We all have our own personal opinion in what makes something beautiful, a work of art, a great turning. And that's a good thing because the forum would be pretty boring if we were all trying to duplicate the preferred look. But at the same time we all vary greatly in the skill it takes to get the look we're after. When I receive a critique, and I have a tough time remembering to type the standard 'all comments, critiques, and suggestions welcome' line into my posts even though I would always like a critique or opinion, I try to weigh in my own mind whether the person is telling me they like the piece or whether they're saying they admire what went into it but the piece sucks. And if they do or don't like it I like to hear why. But the old 'nice wood, nice form, nice finish' reply really doesn't give you much in the way of knowing what you've done well.

Because this thread is a bit of a boil over from one of Gary Max's origianal posts I'm going to toss in my last 2 cents about pictures. Regardless of why you post a picture of your work a good photograph serves to flatter your work. Steve Schlumpf and Keith Burns, just as two examples, both do incredibly beautiful work. But as an added bonus, they both know how to get the most out of their posts by taking a photo that comes as close to letting you hold that work in your hands as you'll get without actually holding it. Very few of us are professional photograpers, let alone professional turners, but if we want our turnings to be appreciated for what work we've put into them we need to get a photo that lets the internet viewer see them in their best light. It doesn't have to be a professional photo, but you should aspire to those photo's you seen that allow you to really see what the work looks like.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keith and George....if something happened at another site , I suggest taking the discussion about what happened off line via PMs or email. Anything that happens at another site is irrelevant at the Creek.

Thanks!

[George Guadiane]

George, I vaguely remember the comments on that piece but don't remember the piece being trashed. Anyway I went back to view the comments and it appeares you have deleted your album from that site. Please correct me if I am wrong.
It's GGuadiane on that site.

[George Guadiane]

Keith and George....if something happened at another site , I suggest taking the discussion about what happened off line via PMs or email. Anything that happens at another site is irrelevant at the Creek.

Thanks!
Sorry Ken, I posted a response to Ken before I read this one...
I used the post on the other site as an example of what has happened to me, so as to not be threatening about this site, and because noone has trashed me here (that I recall)... I thought that using an example would make it a bit more real, and I left out names, and the site.

Again, I'm sorry if I broke protocol.
G

[Tony Kahn]

Best thing i can say is this has all been covered pretty well in this sticky about critiques.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56171

I think this should be mandatory reading for anyone that wants or gives critiques. Just last wednesday in a workshop i was at, I brought this forum up in discussion, 5 out of the 9 people in the room said they no longer come to this forum either because they didn't ask for critique but got pretty negative (remember the sandwich rule) critiques or because they got blasted for giving critiques when people asked for them. Now in the defense of SMC i do not know what they asked for critiques on nor do i know their critiques given but it is the point that apparently there was something wrong with the forum in that aspect.

Me personally i have not posted any photos as of yet because mostly turned rough outs lately, but i will say that when the time comes i will want critiques as well as opinions. And i will have a shaker of salt handy to go with any i recieve.

EDIT: All that being said, i think it goes to show i think there is a lot to learn on this site, and considering the membership/contributorship many other people have the same opinion. BUT for the most part what you are going to get when you ask for a critique is an OPINION and i will do us all the favor of not using the old cliche about those.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

George,

Not a problem. As I said ...it's irrelevant and historically if we let something like that get too far along, it will get out of hand.

NP

[Keith Burns]

Thanks George for the correction. My mistake.

Ken, my apologies, I was only trying to get a grasp on what George was saying.

[Keith Burns]

Geogre, I went back and re-read the posts. I have to agree with you that it was pretty harsh but as grown men I think you guys worked it out.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Here's a sticky from the Turner's Forum:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56171

[Joe Tonich]

I'm not talking about style, or pushing your definition of style on others. People are different, in their views of what looks good.

OK....here's an example...

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/jt6089/critiques019-2.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/jt6089/critiques018-2.jpg

I turned this a while ago...been told it's cool and also been told it's butt ugly. lol I happen to still think it looks cool, but I can also see the others views too. I will turn something like this again, using some ideas that the 'butt ugly' club has offered....make the opening smaller, raise the shoulder a bit, make the bottom curve out instead of inverted (Yep, someone sent me that with their opinion. :D ), etc... and I'll probably find what I was after in the first place. :cool: If all I got were Attaboys, would I ever try to fine tune it? Probably not. We all try diff. things, and should, but not get angry because someone see's something and suggests it even if not asked.

Glad this thread has opinions coming forth, just ask that no-one singles out anyone and keeps it friendly. I think we're all mature enough to do that. ;)

[Ken Glass]

Joe,
Your last post begs the question I have been wanting to ask. Is Good Form truly that subjective. I know good tool work is an acquired skill, but artistic talent is of another breed of itself. I have seen some excellent talented turners who were skilled with a tool, but had very little concept of good form. I do believe you can't have one without the other and be considered a Professional Turner. There is sometimes a fine line between amateur and professional. It may be what his or her turnings sell for, or it may be how it is received at an art gallery, or if the turner is making a living from turning, but none the less there is a standard. Look on most magazine covers of turning magazines and you will see some amazing turnings by some very talented professional turners. I have never seen one that lacked great form. So, what is great form?

[George Guadiane]

First of all, I think this might be a hijacking, BUT...

Joe,
Your last post begs the question I have been wanting to ask. Is Good Form truly that subjective. I know good tool work is an acquired skill, but artistic talent is of another breed of itself. I have seen some excellent talented turners who were skilled with a tool, but had very little concept of good form. I do believe you can't have one without the other and be considered a Professional Turner. There is sometimes a fine line between amateur and professional. It may be what his or her turnings sell for, or it may be how it is received at an art gallery, or if the turner is making a living from turning, but none the less there is a standard. Look on most magazine covers of turning magazines and you will see some amazing turnings by some very talented professional turners. I have never seen one that lacked great form. So, what is great form?

Great form IMO is two things
The "classic" perception which can include things like the "golden rectangle," and historic - Greek, Roman, Gothic, Native American, ETC.
Anything that holds your attention and makes you want to be an owner, either as a collector or as an artist.

[Joe Tonich]

It's not totally hijacking because it leads back to the question, Can one learn and improve his/her turning skills and 'eye' for design if all they get are 'Attaboys'?

If a form is absolutely awful, would you want to know or would you want to keep doing the same thing in utter bliss, cause nobody told you it was actually awful?

From what I see in the poll.....this question is something that actually needs to be looked at further.

I just want Attaboys. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar2-r.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/clear.gif 1 1.37%

I'd like honest opinions and constructive criticism http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar3-r.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/clear.gif 71 97.26%

I've learned all I can so don't bother me with opinions http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar4-l.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar4.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/polls/bar4-r.gifhttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/clear.gif 1 1.37%

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe,

I suggest that if someone wants constructive criticism they should ask and get it in a civil manner.

This has been previously covered:
As requested, here the the Critique "Rules" document for use when serving as a mentor. This was written by Christopher K. Hartley.



Read First When Requesting Project Critiques



These guidelines are the composite work of the members of the Turning Forum. They are established to promote the ongoing Learning, Skill Development and Fun for all those who would elect to participate in seeking constructive critiques of their work. Within this process there are two areas of responsibility. The first is the responsibility of the person requesting a critique(referred to as Student from this point on) and the second is the responsibility of the person giving the critique(referred to as Mentor from this point on) . Both of these individual responsibilities will be addressed here for the purpose of establishing clarity, understanding and unity of purpose.

Student Responsibility and Expectations(Your Commitment):

When you submit a project for critique enter the words "Critique Requested" in the subject line. Only those posts containing this identifier will fall under this program. This identifier will indicate that you know and understand the parameters of this process and give the Mentors the liberty to openly and honestly critique your project.

Provide a clear description of the project to include: Dimensions, Wood Type, Sanding grits used, finish used.

State any specific challenges you faced.

In the body of your request, state any artistic goal or objective or vision you had in mind for the project. Without this information the Mentor may not have a clear picture of your objective and call in question something that you intended to be a part of the project. Remember some things tend to be more subjective than objective in nature.

Provide pictures as clear as you are able to take. there should be a top view, bottom view and side view. This is not a display picture. the picture should be as close as possible and with no attempt to hide flaws in the work.

When requesting a critique be more ready to listen than to defend. If your intent is merely to display a work for comments of encouragement use the normal approach and do not ask for a critique.

Trust your Mentors, in the majority of cases those Mentors who comment will have experienced what they comment on and have experience in overcoming that obstacle. Be teachable. Always remember that there are no negatives or failures only opportunities for improvement.

Be willing to unlearn and re-learn if necessary.

Feel good that you have taken the steps to improve and develop your skill.


Mentor Responsibility and Expectations(Your Commitment):

Anyone can step into this role. You can be a student and be a mentor as well. Just as we all have things we excel in, we all have areas for improvement. Comment only on those things you know you have developed skill or knowledge in. To be credible with the Student we must have integrity.

Be Humble, remember you once were where they are.

Be Honest, You can tell someone almost anything as long as they feel that you have their best interest at heart. Holding back the truth is more hurtful than helpful. the issue is how that truth is shared.

In giving a critique, there may be multiple areas for improvement. Identify the areas but have the student focus on the one or two that will bring the greatest impact first. Don't let a student become overwhelmed with four or five areas to work on. If another Mentor has identified something, don't repeat it unless you can add more depth or a different perspective.

As a Mentor it is ok to ask a student if they are willing to accept an assignment to adjust or develop a skill.

Use the Sandwich Technique when assessing a student's work. (Start with a plus, address the area for improvement, end on a positive)

Sometimes there is more than one right answer or approach. Be flexible.

Always remember, true mentors are not those who accept the title nor those who are assigned to the position. We truely only become Mentors when those we serve choose us as Mentors.
__________________

[Jeff Nicol]

First let me say that everyone likes to be stroked and given a warm fuzzy! Not all turners will ever reach the highest marks as a turner but want to continue to learn and here that what they did has merit, but could possibly be improved by trying some other method or adding something here or there.

If the people who are unhappy about the ATTABOYS would read and follow the posts they would be able to see that many of the young, new and inexperienced turners recieve more encouragment through phrases like: Great finish, nice shape, cool wood, or something else that is pretty benign but "TACTFUL AND ENCOURAGING"!!!! There are some turners who have turned for 30 years that may not be as good as someone who has turned for 6 months. The pride that the turner feels from being told he did a good job is better than tearing them down with cruel and ignorant comments. If you think you are better than anyone one this forum you should stop posting and go elsewhere. How everyone responds to a given post with pictures with positive remarks is not for the unhappy, bitter, uncaring, disrespectful, self agrandizing, non sharing know it alls to respond to. If you are so good at turning and only wish to bring others down to make you feel superior I for one don't wish to here from you ever!

I am not a DaVinci, Rembrandt, Monet, Rodan, Ellsworth, Bin Pho, Malcom Tibbitts, or any of the many others who I hold to be artists and great at what they do but I hope to get there some day, but the comments should be tactful, sincere, and Respectful. By understanding and getting to know each and every person you respond to will give you better insight in how you respond and not stick your foot in your mouth.

If you are happy in your own life you can be positive to others, if not, fix yourself first.

Saddened by this,

Jeff

[Don Eddard]

Don,
I don't disagree with you that there are times when I see undeserved "atta boys," but...
IMO, the general tone of THIS post sounds angry and defensive.
The "not sugar-coating my suggestions" - "like it or not" aspects of this post may put a point on why you may not be well received. There are gracious ways to say, "overall, this piece is crap." From THIS post, it sounds (to me) like this is an area where you could use some work. I could go on, in more detail, describing each area where I feel like your tone probably has more to do with how you are received than anything else, but I think that would be piling on.
You said you can take it, I hope this came across as constructive.

Thanks, George. I do take your comments as constructive, and you're correct, my post was angry, although the defensive aspect wasn't intentional. I'm generally a bit less brusque in my comments here, but I'm angry because of comments like the one I quoted above yours. I don't appreciate being called names or being told to "get a life" by clueless people.

RE: the various comments from people about form and design being subjective, I agree completely with that notion. In the two above-referenced posts that seem to have started some of this melee, my suggestions had nothing to do with form, but instead were photo-related. I suggested a non-plaid background in one, and to turn the photo 90 degrees in the other.

Because of the subjective nature of forms, there are always going to be well-turned pieces that I'm not fond of. Joe's piece above is an example. Although the form doesn't do much for me, Joe turned that particular form very well, so my only suggestions would be regarding the photos, in an effort to help him show it off better.

[Mark Norman]

Well said Jeff!

I'm with you 100% on this.

[David Christopher]

I think if you dont like something that is said scroll down to the next post.....Im not going to waste my life being mad at someone I dont even know.....lets all grow up

[Mike Svoma]

Well said Jeff. Words to live by.

Mike

[Keith Burns]

Well I know I for one want honest critiques of my work. If you think a piece I have done needs improvement tell me what needs improved in your eyes. Will I go right back out to the shop and incorporate into my next piece immediately, probably not. Will I file it away in my corticle island to draw on from my subconsious in future turnings, you bet I will.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keith...I can only speak for myself. When I post something and put "Critiques and comments welcomed"...I mean it.

I can also understand that beginning turners need the positive pats on the back as well as constructive criticism. If they don't ask for a critique, then one shouldn't be given IMHO.

If someone asks for a critique, it should be given to them in civil manner.

If someone else has already critiqued something, I don't think that everybody should "pile on" just because you agree. This can appear to be almost a "gang" mentality.

The manner in which the critique is worded has a lot to do with the way it is received.

Being too critical of someone's turnings...especially to a beginning turner can be counterproductive IMHO.

[David Hostetler]

For the most part, we are all adults, or at least mature enough young people that can handle and put constructive criticism to proper use. HOWEVER, some people flatly slam another's work offering nothing constructive at all. As far as my woodturning goes, I am an absolute newbie, and I know it. I have only recently been able to reproduce coves and beads with any real consistency. I know I stink... Having that reinforced won't help much. But being told something like... I see a good start here here and here, where you are on the right track, and this this and that are ways you can improve would go THOUSANDS of miles toward actually helping me... Flat out slams will just get me, and probably other folks thinking (gee that person is an, well, other word for Donkey...)

[Joe Tonich]

I think some clearing up is in order...

In my post I never mentioned slamming, piling on, or destroying anyones self esteem. I was talking about even tho liking a piece, being able to offer opinions of other design features that may make it even more appealing. Not shoving it down their throats, just giving them something else to think about. Just because your just beginning doesn't mean you don't have great ideas. Guys that have never turned before can offer valuable insight into design features and forms. Heck, the people who buy them probably never turned anything, but they could look at something and offhandedly mention something that will stick in your mind. Something that you might find interesting and try...and like it better than the one you thought was the best you could ever do. You never know, thats why even tho you just started turning or have turned for 30 years, your opinion could count in making someone better in their design ideas. Don't be afraid to let your opinion fly, and let the recipient do with it what he/she will, just be sincere and polite. At least thats how I feel about it. ;)

[Jim Becker]

Joe, I think the bottom line is that it's perfectly acceptable to offer suggestions, critique, etc., as long as the original poster requests it. That's pretty much the normal "convention" here at SMC and most other online sites that feature turnings. It works pretty well, too.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Barry Stratton]

Joe, I think the bottom line is that it's perfectly acceptable to offer suggestions, critique, etc., as long as the original poster requests it. That's pretty much the normal "convention" here at SMC and most other online sites that feature turnings. It works pretty well, too.

Jim
SMC Moderator

Not picking on you Jim, but,based on your and others posts on this thread, if the original poster does not ask for suggestions or comments or critiques..then whats left??? All I see left to respond with is "attaboy".........:p

I don't post much anymore (life is hectic) but always assumed posting pictures of my work would prompt folks to share their opinion of it (good and bad) whether I specifically asked for it or not.

[Jim Underwood]

I'm a little late in responding to this, but here goes...

I'm with those posters who say that you should not critique unless it's asked for.

I really liked the "sticky" on that subject on this forum, which essentially says....

If a critique is asked for, then don't just slam the piece, sandwich the criticism between things you like about it or are good about it.

Something I thought about after you asked this question, is that some folks are just in this to have fun, and have no pretensions of being artists whatsoever. Their forms will pretty much stay the same no matter what. And then if you do offer criticism, even constructive criticism, their feelings may be hurt, and they may be discouraged from participating in the forum, and even from turning. I'm sure I don't want that.

I'd rather give everyone attaboys than discourage someone from this great hobby.

That being said, I personally would like constructive criticism on things I post. I would love to improve on what I'm doing. And of course... I like the positive attention as well as anyone. So all in all, I think the "sticky" is right. Balance constructive criticism with the positive comments as well.

[Cody Colston]

I may not always ask for it but I definitely prefer getting critique on anything I post. Now, I WILL consider the source of any critique when deciding what to file away for future reference. I tend to discount suggestions from members who rarely post pics of their work or whose work is IMHO inferior to my own. In other words, show me, don't just tell me. But, the critique is still welcome even if it may not be accepted.

Also, if I don't like a piece, I generally just withhold comment rather than give them an ingenuous attaboy. With a new turner, I may encourage them but I certainly don't try to "blow smoke" with anyone. That does not help anyone get better.

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Joe.

I agree that CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is important for improvement. However, most of us are not expert photographers and a lot of flaws don't show up. The BEST way to look at the piece in person.

Lately, most of the work I've seen, has been very good. If someone wants a critique and I see something to improve, not just something I don't like(beauty is in the eye of the beholder), I will send a PM.

Also, While there are some here that are eminently qualified to offer critiques. I don't always believe that I am experienced enough to look at a picture and decide what needs to be improved.

Bruce

[Kim Ford]

In my view everyone has an opinion and everyone is entitled to an opinion. The determining factor for this or any forum that I am a willing to be a part of is:

Are the members willing to give an honest opinion without attacking the work or the person?

If the members are, then the artist needs to be able to accept that opinion as exactly what it is "an opinion" and grow from it. That may mean ignoring it, embracing it, or somewhere in between.

For me it truly means something when a turner I respect, (from both the work they have posted and the responses they have made to other posts), makes a comment because I consider the source and try to learn from it.

Do remember that everyone who posts a picture here has made the effort to actually take tool in hand and present that tool to a whirling chunk of log. That's a huge step and committment on their part and the only honest way to swim in this pool. To effectively discount someone's effort by attacking the work or the person is just not acceptable behavior.

I post very little, mainly because I just don't get the time to turn that much, but when I do post I truly want your honest opinion. It is then mine to deal with.

[Curt Fuller]

I'm not trying to kick a dead horse, stir up the hornet's nest, or otherwise create havoc. But I ran across this quote that I felt fit this thread.......



When you see yourself doing something badly and nobody's bothering to tell you anymore, that's a very bad place to be. Your critics are the ones telling you they still love you and care. (Randy Pausch)

[Wally Dickerman]

I've been visiting this site off and on for quite a while. In reading this thread I'm seeing a lot of comments about "trashing" and "piling on" etc. I have to say that I really can't remember ever seeing any of that. Most of the critiques are about changing a curve or making a finial smaller or using a smaller foot or whatever. Nothing that I would call offensive. Could it be that there are some fragile egos out there?

Am I missing something?

Wally

[David Walser]

No, Wally, you're not missing anything. As internet forums go, this is one of the best behaved and courteous I've ever encountered. Still, when you're new at something (or even if you're not) even well-intentioned, constructive, criticism of "your baby" can seem harsh.

So, yes, some (all?) of us are, at times, overly sensitive. Instead of being grateful that someone took their time to give us their honest feedback, we take offense. However, the alternative -- getting no real feedback -- is far worse. The lack of feedback slows the learning process. Most of the posters to this forum seem to understand that getting honest criticism is worth whatever pain it might cause. Most of the posters on this forum also understand that there's no reason to make the process more painful than it need be, which is a very good thing.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Wally,

This has already been addressed in the past and there is a sticky on this forum concerning it.


IF a member wants critiques, all they have to do is put that in the post. Simple.


In the past there was a group of people who did, in fact, get a little rough and pile on IMHO.

So what could be easier? You want critiques...ask for it....you don't want critiques....you don't.

You are thickskinned ask for it....you aren't don't ask for a critique.

What is the problem with that?

[Brian Brown]

I'm seeing a lot of comments about "trashing" and "piling on"
Wally

I have no doubt what "Trashing” is, but what exactly is "Piling on". It seems to me when I get a suggestion about changing a curve, or removing a flat spot, I may or may not agree. If more people agree with the need for change, I will take another look. The more people that feel a specific change should be made, the more likely I am to try and see their point. For example, one of my early pieces that I finally felt I had gotten perfect, was a vase with a flat spot where there should have been a continuing curve. Somebody mentioned it, and I couldn't see it. I dismissed the comment. After several others agreed that the flat spot needed to be changed, I got out a ruler to prove my curve was continuous. Gol dang.... they were right. I just couldn't see it, and never would have gone looking if the extra comments weren't there. The comments don't have to be viscous, just a simple I agree with so and so about the curve.

I have been an artist (in another medium) for 25 years, and have received thousands of critiques on my work. In that time I have grown a skin thick enough to deflect bullets. Somebody’s negative comments don’t affect me, and I crave constructive comments. That is why I post my pictures. I have gotten so many of the constructive comments here at SMC, and I thank all of you that have made them. I can’t remember ever having received a bullet. So back to my original question, how is the correct way to say you agree with someone’s comment without appearing to be “Piling on”?

[Brian Novotny]

there's a great book on shapes and very informative finishing info called "woodturning projects....a worksop guide to shapes" I'm a self taugt turner too and you kind of have to be critical yourself......if you like it forget what the gallery has to say because there are many woodturning galleries all geared toward a different audience. I would suggest going to the libraray and getting books on antique pottery, art deco, ancient greek forms, and so on. If you like it forget the negatives, if you're on the fence, then maybe listen more, but stick to your guns and if you like it someone else will too. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and when I was an antique pottery dealer there were people that paid hundereds of dollars for things I didn't like at all. Sometimes I like to leave the tenon on a piece for a few days and take several looks at a piece and sometimes I decide I don't like this or that and it can still be changed before finishing the bottom.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

Nobody needs 49 different methods of caustic comments saying the same thing about one's turnings. It can become like a school yard gang of bullies and has in the past.

It's simple....You want critiques...put "Critiques Welcomed" in your posting.

You don't want critiques....don't ask for them.

[Brian Novotny]

Brian,

Nobody needs 49 different methods of caustic comments saying the same thing about one's turnings. It can become like a school yard gang of bullies and has in the past.

It's simple....You want critiques...put "Critiques Welcomed" in your posting.

You don't want critiques....don't ask for them.

What you are talking about Sir, I have NO idea. It sounds like greek to me....are you refering to something I did, or this post?

What it sounds like most is that you're slamming ME, possibly in ways I've done to others???? Which is just as bad. Don't tell me not to do something and then turn around and do it to me! Notice I'm not 'slamming" you. please explain.

[Brian Novotny]

Don,
I don't disagree with you that there are times when I see undeserved "atta boys," but...
IMO, the general tone of THIS post sounds angry and defensive.
The "not sugar-coating my suggestions" - "like it or not" aspects of this post may put a point on why you may not be well received. There are gracious ways to say, "overall, this piece is crap." From THIS post, it sounds (to me) like this is an area where you could use some work. I could go on, in more detail, describing each area where I feel like your tone probably has more to do with how you are received than anything else, but I think that would be piling on.
You said you can take it, I hope this came across as constructive.

I was HAMMERED by someone else on another site, not about finish or materials, but about TASTE, design, form - the only thing that is subjective. Now I respect this person and their work, and have gotten EXCELLENT insight from this person in the past, but MOST of the comment made was WAY beyond the pale and completely out of line. When this person pointed out flat spots in my "perfect" curves, I was forced to look at them and refine them (it made me better), but this particular comment suggested that I should start thinking about doing something else, because this one piece (and it's design) might be my undoing.



Gary,
Since I don't have an example of what you are talking about, I can't comment on the specifics, but it SOUNDS like this is a person you could block from your view and live a happier life.
On the other hand, I have to ask, like it or not, is the "bashing" relevant, or is it mostly mean spirited?



Harvey,
I see the expression "nice form" on here often enough that I'm left wondering what it really means to the people who post it... Much of the time, I would be more likely to say "interesting form," because it doesn't fit any of the classic definitions of "nice" form.
I am toying with some multi-axis stuff, I KNOW I don't have it yet, and would be embarrassed to hear "nice form" on those, they don't have nice form... But the idea WILL yield some cool stuff soon.



PERFECT form and finish!


The First one (Koa) was TRASHED as a "critique." The other two are the all turned multi axis concept I am working on.

IMO rediculous. That top section on the koa piece is awesome!!! Not only because It's extremely pleasing to my eye, but original, something alot of people aren't. I can see where you're going with piece #2 and I think it has something lacking, while piece #3 is a very nice piece and if the eccentric stuff is new, you're definitely on the right path as piece #3 is leaps and bounds over piece #2. good job.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian Novotny,

In no way was I slamming you or even referring to you. I was replying to my friend Brian Brown who posted just before you.

I was explaining to Brian Brown the definition of "piling on".

I was simply stating that this has been discussed before and explaining why there is a sticky at the top of this forum concerning this subject.

If a person wants a critique, ask for it.

If a person doesn't ask for critique, don't give it.

[Brian Novotny]

That's probably why I didn't understand what you were talking about.

Here's an analogy:

If someone dyes their hair purple and goes into public they can expect comments.
when you expose anything to the public it is open for critiqiue, IMO, I don't know anything in the world that this doesn't apply to.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian,

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

The reasons we decided several years ago not to allow outright critiquing is because 1)some people don't know how to critique something without being caustic, hostile and crude and 2) there was a number of folks here who IMHO acted in a gang like manner and if one gave you a negative critique..crudely.....caustically...the entire group jumped in...3) we didn't think those type of comments were good for beginning turners. We saw all of the above.

In response to these thoughts Chris, from Houston, a member, wrote the sticky and I posted it. It was accepted as the policy with which we'd run the forum.

I really don't understand the problem.

IF someone really wants a "CRITIQUE"....they ask for it in the post.

IF some doesn't ask for a critique in their post...don't give one. There's nothing wrong with me proudly posting a photograph of my new turning and not wanting to hear somebody flame it.

I am not saying all critiques are flamings. I'm saying a person has a right to post a photo and not have to listen to a few who want to sarcastically run down their turning.

Again, Brian, none of this pertains to you..I'm just explaining why we decided to go this route.

[George Guadiane]

That's probably why I didn't understand what you were talking about.

Here's an analogy:

If someone dyes their hair purple and goes into public they can expect comments.
when you expose anything to the public it is open for critiqiue, IMO, I don't know anything in the world that this doesn't apply to.
Here's a question:

If the purple haired person is built like Mr America and is carrying a handgun, do you make the comments to his face???

Discretion is my point, you are right, people have opinions, people express opinions, SMART people use their heads in choosing whom they make the comments to, when they make them, and how they couch them.

A person should not need to be built like Mr America, nor should they need to carry a handgun to be accorded common courtesy. It has now been politely pointed out SEVERAL times on this thread that there is a protocol on these boards for how and when to post a comment or critique.

If you MUST comment on items where no comments are requested, do like I do, say it out loud. Be as offensive as you need to be, then move on.