Kitchen Barn Type Doors

[michael foster]

Hi guys ,

I have been contracted to build a kitchen. The doors are to be built of one inch oak. The oak is to be jointed vertically to form a finely finished barn type door. I am worried about the doors bowing and was thinking of inserting some horizontal strips on the backs of the doors . What do you all think is the best way to build these doors to make sure they stay together and do not bow ?

Thanks in advance

Michael from Barbados................

[Jamie Buxton]

The straightforward way to build a door like this is to butt the vertical planks together, and glue horizontal battens to the back. Do not do this. The door will be guaranteed to bow. The vertical planks will expand or contract in width with changes in the atmospheric humidity. The battens will not change in length. Ergo, bowing.

At the very least, put a little gap between the vertical boards. Better, put a tongue-and-groove joint between the vertical boards, but still leave a little gap. The tongue will keep the boards aligned, but the gap will still allow the boards to move. Often people chamfer the edges of the boards.

[michael foster]

Jamie'and all

the design requires the front of the doors to be completely flush no lines . What is best in this situation? Our weather hear is fairly constant. We have a rainy season but I do not think the humity varties a substantial amount. I will verify with the weather department.

Michael from Barbados.

[Jamie Buxton]

If you absolutely must butt the front boards tightly together, put the battens on the back with a sliding joint. You can glue or screw the middle of the batten, but near the edges use screws running through oval holes in the battens, and don't tighten the screws completely.

In any case, make the doors overlay, not inset.

Does oak grow on Barbados? I think of oak as a temperate-zone tree, and of Barbados as a tropical-zone island.

[John Schreiber]

At least around here, barn doors are not finely finished and if made with solid wood, they definitely have a loose fitting tongue and groove to allow for expansion/contraction.

[michael foster]

The Oak is imported. We have some very beautiffu woods in Barbados but very small quantities.No Timber industries the island is only 166sq miles ,mostly in sugar.The barn door description was only given to help clarify how the door was to be built . Sorry if it got you in a muddle , where you come from. I understand the concept of the strap and the slotted holes and screws. Are there any other options. The door is to be stained and cleared with an automotive flat clear. Will the changes in humity have that much effect through the finish.

Michael from Barbados

[Peter Quinn]

The finish is a vapor retarder, not a vapor barrier in most cases. So the wood is going to move. The best solution is not to use solid wood edge glued into a slab, but to use an engineered substrate edge banded with solid wood and veneered with a thick sawn veneer front and back. Get a vacuum press or make a traditional press, include this labor and materials in your price, or any warranty on the doors must be avoided. You might also sub this out to another shop if it is beyond the scope of your facilities.

The shop I work in made something similar for an exterior kitchen from teak, the client and architect insisted on a certain visual AND solid wood construction against all advice to the contrary, the stuff went wild and warped, then they asked "What happened to our doors?" Full overlay on framless cabs made of boat board with tight reveals between doors, everything bent and warped until it looked like a Dali painting.

Wood is wood, a client and or designer willing something doesn't make it possible or sensible. I would start by making one test door, hanging it in the space and watching what happens. Maybe it will be OK, either way some good physical evidence can often shed light on a situation like that.

[J.R. Rutter]

If they insist on this, then go with QS or at least rift sawn. Use battens with sliding dovetails and no glue. A single dowel pin in the center keeps it aligned. For a faster process, these could be full width with exposed ends.

For a more finished look, but fussier process, glue up the slabs in pairs about 1/2 final width. Route a stopped dovetail from one edge to an inch or two short of the other edge. Insert the dovetail battens and glue the halves together. Make sure that there is enough room inside the ends of the groove for the batten to more slightly as the door expands and contracts. No dowel needed.

I would still hesitate to give any warranty on these...

[michael foster]

I remember reading somewhere that panels can be made more stable if each board is split and one half rotated before the glue up.I can't remember if this process includes and end to end rotation also.
I will talk to the client and pass on the valuable information you have given . The increase in cost and no guarantee will also be dicussed
Thanks so far for all the good advice.
Please jar my memory on the splitting and rotation process above.

Michael from Barbados

[michael foster]

Sorry how does one make a traditional press ? I have seen a vacum press but I have no idea what this traditional press looks like. I made a desk top which was veneered with many pieces of varied colour greenheart . The clamp up process was done in one go and was a complication. The Kitchen requires one of the counters to be made in a similar way. The traditional press sounds like it would simplyfy my work.

Michael from Barbados........

[Peter Quinn]

Sorry how does one make a traditional press ? I have seen a vacum press but I have no idea what this traditional press looks like. I made a desk top which was veneered with many pieces of varied colour greenheart . The clamp up process was done in one go and was a complication. The Kitchen requires one of the counters to be made in a similar way. The traditional press sounds like it would simplyfy my work.

Michael from Barbados........

You can make one with pipe clamps and heavy cauls, MDF plattens and a few bolts. The cauls form a series of four sided open boxes joined at each corner with bridle joints held with the bolts. You can also buy screw jacks from Jorgenson that are a bit expensive but are made for the purpose. Others make them too, search veneer screw press for examples.

http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=143569&FamilyID=4362

http://books.google.com/books?id=s5M_pcBq69MC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=veneer+screw++press&source=bl&ots=0FPjmxFm-a&sig=u1kcqPUxp68ZOD8KNBcJqK-bWKs&hl=en&ei=ATg0SuSIKY-MtgfQion5Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA40,M1

Hit the second link, go to page 40 for a good picture of a pretty good set up, you can get away with much less for a standard sized cabinet door.

[michael foster]

I rember reading that if you are making a panel it is better to split each piece and rotate one half before the glue up . Could someone give me a brief on this and whether this will help in making the doors more stable.

Michael from Barbados..........

[george wilson]

I have a 19th.C. carpentry book that says "Never guarantee an oak door." I advise you to heed this advice.

[J.R. Rutter]

If you look at the growth rings on a board's end, you can tell which way it is likely to cup as it dries. The growth rings tend to straighten out as the board loses moisture. By ripping and flipping end over end, the cupping gets averaged out into more of a wavy pattern that is an approximation of flat. Whether this is desirable or not is debatable. Using quartersawn or riftsawn lumber makes this a moot point.

[Orion Henderson]

Strap hinges to hang the doors will help with bowing and to help keep them from sagging.

[michael foster]

the oak that I do have access to looks like second quality ,definitley not quarter sawn. I think the safe way to go is to use plywood and strip the edges and then clad the front and back with 3/16 x2 inch strips. I can't say that I am looking forward to this. To squeeze the strips together in one direction and then clamp the strips onto the face of the door in another direction will be challenging . To do it back and front and doing this for 20 or so doors is a big ask . What is the best way to go about this process . When I look at it, I know I can do it but I know it will be a struggle. I am sorry to keep bothering you all with all of these questions but oak doors and this type of door are both new to me . I do appreciate you all taking the time and giving me your good advice.

Michael from Barbados......,

[David Prince]

I made knotty pine doors like you are describing. I took a slab of 3/4 OSB. Edge banding with 3/4 x 3/4 clear pine. Tongue and groove 1/4 x 3 inch boards glued to the face with contruction adhesive and some small pin nails here and there to hold the boards.

They turned out fine and I feel confident that they will hold their shape. The client wanted them to look like a barn door style. I was concerned about the solid wood movement and warp with that. Maybe solid dimensional lumber for a storage shed, a barn, or a chicken koop, but not in a house where you want it to hold its shape for years.

I also had to make interior shutters for the windows and bifold doors for the closets. This approach allowed me to get all of the items into a similar design format.

Pic is attached.