Rail and Stile fitting question

[Frank Dominski]

Made my first cabinet door today and could not get a good fit on the front of the door where the rail meets the stile. The front side of the rail was about 1/32'' short of the style at all four corners. The tenon seemed to be just as short of the stile but the back side of the rail fit flush with the stiles. I was using a brand new Freud 2 piece beading profile bit set. Was I doing something wrong or is there something wrong with the bit set.:confused:

[Danny Thompson]

So the backs, which do fit flush, were not cut by the router bits; they were precut using a saw, right?

Sounds like your rail wasn't fully buried into the rail bit and maybe the same for the stiles.

Were you using a fence? If so, is it possible the fence wasn't back enough to generate a full depth cut?

[Fred Belknap]

You need to check that the rails and stiles are touching the bearing on the bit so that you get full depth. Just move the fence a bit. Should cure your problem.

[glenn bradley]

Sounds like whatever method you are using to pass the narrow end by the bit is not staying at a consistent angle. Or rather that it is staying at a consistent incorrect one ;-) Ergo the same problem at each location(?). Coping sled? (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=79265&d=1200375598)

[Matt Tawes]

The likely result is not necessarily your method but the bits.

I've got an assortment of Whiteside, MLCS, Infinity, Jessem etc. rail and stile bits and have to say that Freud bits are crap.
Freud makes great blades but their router bits, at least where rail and stile are concerned are junk. I got a set from them few years ago and experienced the same as you and misaligned joint profiles as well regardless of shimming. I sent the set back 4 times direct to Freud one set due to excessive chips in the carbide on an unopened set, and the others due to joint fitment issues. The first time they suggested that perhaps I was probably just inexperienced with making cabinet doors and setting up joints so I kindly reminded them I do this for a living with over 20yrs. experience so with 3 of the returns I sent sample cuts showing the ill fitting joints. End result was they said it must have just been a bad die when they were made and that the ones I had likely were on the same run. In the end the last set with shimming fit tight except for the tenon portion lacking 1/32 from meeting the groove (even after they sent me another chipper that cuts the groove it was still deeper than the profile for the tenon on the other bit) had no chips so I kept it consdering they did not offer a refund.

I still use Freud blades and will continue to but won't ever take a chance on one of their rail/stille bit sets again no matter how cheap the set.

[Charles McCracken]

Made my first cabinet door today and could not get a good fit on the front of the door where the rail meets the stile. The front side of the rail was about 1/32'' short of the style at all four corners. The tenon seemed to be just as short of the stile but the back side of the rail fit flush with the stiles. I was using a brand new Freud 2 piece beading profile bit set. Was I doing something wrong or is there something wrong with the bit set.:confused:

Frank,

Sorry to hear of the trouble and I understand your frustration. I believe that the solution is simple. You need to be sure that you are getting full depth of cut on both the rail and stile cuts. You can verify this by setting the fence so that you know the cut is just a little too deep (the wood will have to come away from the fence a little to ride the bearing. If you make test cuts in the manner and check the fit I believe you will find it is correct. At that point you will just need to adjust the fence to be aligned with the bearing and make the cuts.

[Bob Genovesi]

you need to check that the rails and stiles are touching the bearing on the bit so that you get full depth. Just move the fence a bit. Should cure your problem.

bingo!! :)

[Charles McCracken]

Matt,

I don't know what to say that will make your situation better at this point. It doesn't sound like the way a situation as you describe would be handled by any of the people I have worked with at Freud for the past 13+ years. I'm not trying to say it didn't happen, only that I can't imagine who would offer such crappy customer service and, evidently, bad information. If a defective profile is suspected we will ask for the return of the bit(s) and a sample cut. We can typically determine from this if it is defective. If so, we will replace the product. Since a defect of this nature is a really rare occurrence we most always will make samples of our own showing that the profile is correct and return it with the bit(s). The only thing close to a die in the manufacturing process would be the carbide mold and these are made with tolerances that are so tight it is unbelievable. Again, I'm not disputing what you are saying, just the person who supplied you with the info. Any chance it was your dealer you were dealing with and not Freud directly?

[Matt Tawes]

Matt,

I don't know what to say that will make your situation better at this point. It doesn't sound like the way a situation as you describe would be handled by any of the people I have worked with at Freud for the past 13+ years. I'm not trying to say it didn't happen, only that I can't imagine who would offer such crappy customer service and, evidently, bad information. If a defective profile is suspected we will ask for the return of the bit(s) and a sample cut. We can typically determine from this if it is defective. If so, we will replace the product. Since a defect of this nature is a really rare occurrence we most always will make samples of our own showing that the profile is correct and return it with the bit(s). The only thing close to a die in the manufacturing process would be the carbide mold and these are made with tolerances that are so tight it is unbelievable. Again, I'm not disputing what you are saying, just the person who supplied you with the info. Any chance it was your dealer you were dealing with and not Freud directly?

Hey Charles, you're partially right about my experience as the first call was likely to the vendor I dont recall (purchased through Amazon, maybe one of the stores selling through them) maybe it was them who made the comment as it was some time ago. But I specifically spoke with you personally on the phone at least on 2 occassions and corresponded via email a number of times. Like I mentioned I ended up keeping the bit and I still have it in the drawer and use it on occasion but as I said before it still gaps 1/32 or so on the tenon depth.
You did offer oustanding customer service and you did return/replace the bit a number of times (there were no cut profiles showing me that it was a good fit from Freud by the way) and would have several more until I was satisfied I'm sure but the profile fits tight so I just lived with the tenon gap. I still love Freud blades as I mentioned and own several and they're all I use but I still feel (in my opinion) that your rail/stile bits are lacking (or at least they were), sorry. I'm not knocking the brand just that particular product. Besides this was more than a few months or year ago, probably 3 yrs. maybe and things have changed.

[Frank Dominski]

Charles M.- When I set up the cutter I made several marks on the bearing with a felt marker. I ran a stright edge along the fence until the bearing just started to turn, I also used a coping sled to cut the rails. I will try making a few test cuts with the bearing protruding just past the fence and see if it makes any differance. I also forgot to mention that the rail seemed to fit rather loose into the stile. And I will agree with Matt about your blades. Thanks Frank

[Peter Quinn]

I'm staring at the Freud cutter diagram, and thinking about it. If you weren't making a full cut on the sticking profile, you would have the a different problem than you are currently experiencing. The bottom shoulders would have a gap, perhaps the top edge too, and the cope and stick would hit each other at some point in their profile. This is to say the two parts would not meet well, but they would do so at both the top and bottom edge.

My best guess is there is some error in your coping method, or the stock is not entirely square in one or both of your parts, or both issues exist. That would be my first check. See that the fence is in as tight as the cutter will allow, check that the fence is in fact flush to the bearing, and pass the copes through the cutter with a square coping block or sled and consistent but not excessive pressure both downward and toward the fence. Also check that your fence plates are straight and aligned with each other, particularly along the last few inches before and after the cutter.

I have used a variety of Freud bits and have found them to be consistently very accurate. Their door making sets are not my favorite for a variety of reasons, but accuracy is not one of them. I feel similarly about their sash sets, not bad bits and a good value if you need to make what their geometry allows, but not the most flexible sets available. And for the record, if a cabinet set meets at the top and bottom edge and makes crisp coped corners along the molding profile but the tenon is just light of the groove bottom, I would call that excellent. A tenon that bottoms out in the groove is a major PIA and poor design by the tool maker IMHO. A slight gap is preferable at that intersection in my thinking.