Shoulder planes

[Thomas Crawford]

I need some type of shoulder plane to clean up tenons (specifically on my Roubo bench right now). I can't afford a LV or LN at this point. Is there an old Stanley equivalent? I looked on the Blood and Gore and it looks like the #90 or #92 would be what I want.

Also need to clean up my glue squeeze-out :) Would one of these do the job or should I look for something else?

[Mike Henderson]

You can clean up tenons with a chisel. You don't really need a shoulder plane.

My experience with Stanley shoulder planes has not been good, but, as others have pointed out, they were used successfully for many years, so they may work for you. If you do decide to buy a Stanley, get the 92 or 93, rather than the 90.

I would use a paint scraper to clean up glue rather than any plane.

Mike

[Brian Kent]

On the glue, I use a carbide paint scraper on rough surfaces and scraper cards on finer surfaces.

I tried two cheap solutions for shoulder planes and neither worked well. I look forward to your answers on the old Stanleys. Several years ago I tried an Anant bullnose rabbett plane, which after much work is just barely worth keeping and using, and a Mujingfang rabbet plane which I could not tune effectively to get rid of chatter. My other Mujingfang planes are great, but not this one.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I'm with Mike. I had the LV medium several years ago and sold it. I have never missed it. I use a chisel to clean up shoulders. Using a shoulder plane can actually make the fit worse if your tenon cheeks are not perfectly parallel to the stock sides. The plane will only make the shoulders 90 degrees to the tenon cheek. If the cheek is off, the shoulder will be off as well. With a chisel, you can slightly undercut the shoulders so that you get a nice tight fit at the outside of the shoulder. You also cannot use a shoulder plane on angled tenons where the shoulder to cheek angle is not 90 degrees such as those for joined chairs.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm with Mike. I had the LV medium several years ago and sold it. I have never missed it. I use a chisel to clean up shoulders. Using a shoulder plane can actually make the fit worse if your tenon cheeks are not perfectly parallel to the stock sides. The plane will only make the shoulders 90 degrees to the tenon cheek. If the cheek is off, the shoulder will be off as well. With a chisel, you can slightly undercut the shoulders so that you get a nice tight fit at the outside of the shoulder. You also cannot use a shoulder plane on angled tenons where the shoulder to cheek angle is not 90 degrees such as those for joined chairs.
I may follow in Robert's path. I started with a couple of Stanley shoulder planes and was not happy. I bought a LV medium and found it to be a wonderful plane.

But when I trim tenons, I use a chisel. It's just easier for me, and as Robert said, you have more control.

Mike

[harry strasil]

I use a shoulder plane very seldom to fine tune a shoulder, but to clean up tenon's I use my version of a hand router, I call a tenon router, no problems getting the tenon square with the main part.

disassembled.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/tenonrouter01.jpg


bottom view.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/tenonrouter02.jpg

in use. just hold one end down on the main body and rotate the cutting end in a short arc. The cutter is set askew to give a shearing action.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/tenonrouter03.jpg

A Stanley 71 mounted on a piece of plexiglass or stiff plywood will also work.

[Thomas Crawford]

Thanks for the replies, my problem is that my chisels suck (crown butt chisels). Too short for what I need to do.

So - suggestions on chisel brands? (also need a mortise chisel) I think I could probably sell a camera flash to raise ~$300. I have an upcoming project with dovetailing (drawers and case), and will also need a 1/4 mortise chisel.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Your chisels should be plenty long enough for paring tenon shoulders and cheeks. What are you finding them too short for?

If you're set on getting new/longer chisels, for the money the Irwin/Marples blue handle chisels are hard to beat. There's really nothing wrong with them at all. Heck, they get Frank Klausz's top rating.

If you want something a little nicer than the blue handles, I use and like the Ashley Isles very much. They sharpen up fast and easy and hold an edge plenty long. A lot of folks like the LN but I can't justify $60/chisel for bench chisels. If you can swing the price though I'm sure you'll like them.

Vintage chisels are great too, especially the cast steel ones. It can be time consuming to put together a set of them though buying one at a time. If you want to go the old chisel route, look for the smaller sizes first (like 1/4" to 5/8") as they are the most useful. One wide one (1" to 1-1/2") is good to have too for paring wide areas.

I typically use a 1/2" chisel for paring tenon shoulders and I pare from the outside toward the tenon, using the knife line left from scribing the tenon shoulders as a guide and a place to start the chisel. This keeps all your paring cuts in one plane.

[glenn bradley]

+1 on Marples for getting by on the cheap. I have other, better chisels but I still use the blue-chips the most. They are only about $10 a chisel so you could buy one to get you through your bench and then decide on what to do.

[Thomas Crawford]

The crown's are too short for my taste - plus they are all ridiculously out of square new in the box (they were a gift a few years back). They don't fit any of my sharpening jigs, and the sides are too tall to clear out dovetails. My idea is to get a few of a different brand and see what a good chisel can do, then use the bench grinder to modify the crowns. Like here:
http://www.hand-cut-dovetails.com/tools/8chisEgs/edges.html

[Don Dorn]

I'm glad someone else said it - I thought I had to have a LV medium shoulder plane. I ended up getting one and frankly, I haven't used it yet for anything other than making a few shavings when I first got it.

It's certainly a nice plane, but one of those things in which the money could have been much better utilized. As to tenons - I've done them quickly with a light file scraping and it hasn't let me down yet.

[Sean Hughto]

Very clever tool. I've used my router planes, but this makes registration on longer tenons so much easier. You ought to get a patent! ;-)

[Bill Keehn]

That's pretty cool Harry. :)

[David Keller NC]

I need some type of shoulder plane to clean up tenons (specifically on my Roubo bench right now). I can't afford a LV or LN at this point. Is there an old Stanley equivalent? I looked on the Blood and Gore and it looks like the #90 or #92 would be what I want.

Also need to clean up my glue squeeze-out :) Would one of these do the job or should I look for something else?

Thomas - lots of respondents have guessed, but you don't say what specific part of the tenons you need to clean up. The shoulders can be done with a shoulder plane if used carefully, and assuming that the cheek is parallel with the length of the stock. A chisel will also work, but it's necessary to have sawn a bit short of the marking gauge line (when I mean a "bit short" of the line, I mean leave a little bit of fuzz - not a 16th of an inch). Without this line, you've no reference on what to remove with a chisel, and things can go South pretty quickly from there.

If you have erased your gauge line, you've a couple of choices - you can offer the tenon up to the mortise, and mark where the shoulders are a bit high. This is where a shoulder plane can be quite handy, because if used carefully, it can re-straighten the tenon shoulder and remove only the high spots.

The second option is to use a square and a marking knife to re-establish the cut line all the way around the stile. At that point you can use a chisel to pare down to that line. One note about this - depending on the width of the frame, you may have to shorten the other stile by the same amount to avoid a trapezoid-shaped result.

If, on the other hand, you're needing to clean up the cheeks of the tenon so that it will fit the mortise, then a shoulder plane isn't the tool to use, nor is a chisel. The shoulder plane is usually not wide enough to cover the entire width of the tenon, and a chisel is very, very tricky to use for this purpose because the grain on a sawn piece is usually not exactly parallel with the length of the tenon, and even though you're cutting from the side, it's pretty easy to either have the chisel cut on the first part of the stroke and not the last, or dig on the last part of the stroke. Either situation will result in a tenon whose cheeks are not parallel (and usually is too loose in the mortise after you're done).

To fit the cheeks, you've several choices. If the cheeks are out of parallel with the length of the stile, then using a router plane is your best option (as described by Harry - Veritas and Lie Nielsen make modern iron versions of these). If it's not too far out, but just too wide, then you can use a block rabbet plane like the one that Lie-Nielsen makes, or (and my preference), a float. Floats are generally thought of as plane maker's tools, but they are superb at this job. One of the reasons is that there are many cutting edges on the face of the float, which limits the tendency to dig and will generally ignore the grain direction somewhat like a file or a rasp, and the shaft length is long, so keeping the cheek parallel with the tenon length is easier.

A second choice is a rasp, though it's preferable to have one that is wide enough to completely extend across the tenon cheek. Most of the time, the old standby Nicholsons are too narrow. I've an Auriou that fits the bill here, but it may also be possible to get the cheaper Grammercy rasps in this width.

[Thomas Crawford]

Basically I am building a Roubo bench and need the following:

1) Chisel to make the mortises
2) Something to get the glue squeeze-out cleaned up (think I got my answer)
3) Something to get the tenons fitted if necessary, just now starting to glue up the legs and stretchers

At this point I only have the crown butt chisels and don't like them. My original question assumed that a shoulder plane was the answer to 2&3 but now I'm convinced otherwise.

Long-term I am planning on making furniture with hand-cut M&T and dovetails. I am at the point in life that I will find the money up front to buy the tools I'll have long term rather than make an intermediate step. So that leaves me with these questions:

1) are the blue handled marples an intermediate step, i.e. should I just spring for lie-nielsen's or others up front? or should I just use the crown's for now?

2) do I need a mortise chisel or can I get away with using a bevel-edge bench chisel for the mortises? (both on the Roubo's 2.5"x5" M&T and on future furniture with 1/4" mortises) I am planning on drilling out most of it with brace & bit and then cleaning up the sides/corners.

[glenn bradley]

I'm glad someone else said it - I thought I had to have a LV medium shoulder plane. I ended up getting one and frankly, I haven't used it yet for anything other than making a few shavings when I first got it.

Just more proof that we all work differently. I would give up a lot of items before I would part with my LV medium :).

[Richard Dooling]

I have an 80s era Stanley 93 that is pretty useful. I don't use it a lot but this past weekend I needed to finesse the shoulders on some tenons and was very glad for the plane. It did take some tuning to get this plane working right, but now that it is I'm glad I have it.

Having said that, I do most of my adjustments with chisels. I cannot justify the $$$$ for a LV or LN shoulder plane - other planes yes but not a shoulder.

BTW a recent revelation to me is the cabinet makers float - I bought a 3/8" from LV and it is very useful.

.

[Mike Henderson]

Basically I am building a Roubo bench and need the following:

1) Chisel to make the mortises
2) Something to get the glue squeeze-out cleaned up (think I got my answer)
3) Something to get the tenons fitted if necessary, just now starting to glue up the legs and stretchers

At this point I only have the crown butt chisels and don't like them. My original question assumed that a shoulder plane was the answer to 2&3 but now I'm convinced otherwise.

Long-term I am planning on making furniture with hand-cut M&T and dovetails. I am at the point in life that I will find the money up front to buy the tools I'll have long term rather than make an intermediate step. So that leaves me with these questions:

1) are the blue handled marples an intermediate step, i.e. should I just spring for lie-nielsen's or others up front? or should I just use the crown's for now?

2) do I need a mortise chisel or can I get away with using a bevel-edge bench chisel for the mortises? (both on the Roubo's 2.5"x5" M&T and on future furniture with 1/4" mortises) I am planning on drilling out most of it with brace & bit and then cleaning up the sides/corners.
You'll get a lot of opinions on chisels - so here's mine. I've been searching for the "perfect" chisel for years (meaning one that feels good and holds an edge for a long time). I've bought Two Cherries, Hirsch, LN, Witherby, Swan, DR Barton, Ward, Blue Spruce, Japanese and a few others (I probably have over 100 chisels). They all get dull when used. There is no perfect chisel.

The ones made from A2 steel, like the LNs, hold their edge a bit longer but they dull also, and they're a bit harder to sharpen.

At this point in my woodworking, I think the secret is to keep a fine stone on your workbench and "hone" your edge whenever you think it's not cutting well.

The blue handle Irwins (used to be Marples) will require honing a bit more often than the LNs because the LN steel is harder but you can do very good work with the blue handle chisels.

I think all of us are searching for the "perfect" chisel and that's why so many are sold. You may succumb to that same quest eventually, but for now, you can do excellent work with the blue handle chisels.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Oh, you probably don't need a mortise chisel. Drill out your mortise and use your bench chisels to clean up the mortise. I have a bunch of pigstickers but rarely use them for mortises (I usually use the drill and trim method).

If you don't have a drill press, that's what you should save for.

Mike

[David Keller NC]

"Long-term I am planning on making furniture with hand-cut M&T and dovetails. I am at the point in life that I will find the money up front to buy the tools I'll have long term rather than make an intermediate step. So that leaves me with these questions:

1) are the blue handled marples an intermediate step, i.e. should I just spring for lie-nielsen's or others up front? or should I just use the crown's for now?

2) do I need a mortise chisel or can I get away with using a bevel-edge bench chisel for the mortises? (both on the Roubo's 2.5"x5" M&T and on future furniture with 1/4" mortises) I am planning on drilling out most of it with brace & bit and then cleaning up the sides/corners."

Whether or not the blue-chip chisels are going to be intermediate tools for you are not answerable by anyone on the forum (or anyone else, for that matter). There are probably some exceptions out there, but just about every chisel, whether bought at a big box store or from a high-end small maker like Blue Spruce will cut wood if properly sharpened.

What you get for more money is the nicety of wood vs. plastic handles, (most of the time) better and harder steel that will take an edge that will stand up to mallet work better, improved bolster/tang/socket design (i.e., tougher) and better grinding from the factory.

Most of us that have been at this a while have replaced or retired our plastic-handled starter sets with something better from L-N or Blue Spruce, or some other high end brand, but not everyone.

If you are planning on making furniture by hand, you would be well advised to get a small set of traditional mortise chisels. You can certainly get away with drilling out and paring the mortises on your bench, and beyond a certain width, this is the preferred method anyway. However, when you are working with the smaller widths (less than 1/2"), mortise chisels tend to be considerably faster and more accurate than drilling and paring. You can, of course, teach yourself to pare the sides of a mortise square to the face of the stile, but that isn't all that easy. Mortise chisels make getting square sidewalls pretty automatic, at least as automatic as hand tools get.

[Frank Drew]

I like shoulder planes and the related rabbet plane (rebate, in England), and used them whenever the occasion warranted. The Record 778 rebate plane is a very fine tool, IMO.

The shoulder plane's heyday was really back when joints were largely handcut, and some cleanup was usually necessary.

I agree that the Stanley 90 and 92 aren't so hot; I'd call them barely decent if I'm in a generous mood.