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View Full Version : Help!!!! Need some PC help here.!!!!!



Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 11:00 AM
OK...while my home pc is running ok (at the moment) I figured I'd ask here and see what the concensus is.

Dell XPS T600r
256MB Memory
Ultra66 HD Controller
Original hard drive? 10GB Maxtor
New hard drive that replaced the old one? 80 GB Maxtor, 7,200 RPM, Ultra133
DVD Player
CDRW
ATI Rage64 Video Card

Since I replaced the hard drive (and I've had to rebuild the box TWICE since changing out the hard drive), I've had problems with the machine booting into W2K.

I get during boot:

Blah-Blah-Blah.....DateStamp.......ntfs.sys
or
Blah-Blah-Blah.....Registry Error

Booting? Well it boots itsself about 10 times with various errors (read Blue Screen of Death) before it FINALLY comes up and allows me to assume some resemblance of normal operation. :rolleyes:

As long as the power doesn't flicker :mad:
As long as I do NOT reboot the pc :mad:
As long as I do NOT shut it down :mad:

It runs fine. What say ye?

I do NOT have the money to buy a new PC. I was hoping to get by until next year before I had to do anything about a PC (read tax refund money).

Is it my Ultra133 hard drive and Ultra66 Promise card that aren't playing well together? I just want to resolve the booting problem and inject some stability back into my home pc world.

<b>I NEED your help!!!!!</b> :confused: :confused: :confused: :D

I forgot to add one thing....I do have WinXP Pro laying around. Just don't run it on this machine as it is already slow.......

Kevin Arceneaux
08-20-2004, 11:22 AM
When you installed the new hard drive, did you do a clean install?

Bob Hovde
08-20-2004, 12:55 PM
To fix PC, use Festool solution: Buy a Mac. Install OS X. Problems go away. :)

(This is from a PC. :( )

Bob

Rick Haigh
08-20-2004, 1:14 PM
Hi Dennis,

Did you add a HD controller card instead of running off of the motherboard HD controller? How many IDE devices do you have in your system?

Have you done a defrag lately? Is your virus software up to date?

Rick

Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 1:21 PM
I'm running Norton's complete suite of protection and firewall.

There is a controller on the MB but it's only controlling the CDROM and DVD Player. The HD controller is a Promise Ultra66 card and is the only controller running the new HD. Only one HD in the box.

Bob, I can't run a MAC and still have secure VPN into work from home. I used MAC's in the past but that was only for graphics design work. They had their share of problems as well. ;)

Install on the new hard drive has been from SCRATCH both times and takes me about 7 hours to get the machine back to where it needs to be.

Next theory?

Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 1:23 PM
One other thing I'd like to point out....The system has NOT been changed since I purchased it in Feb 2000 as far as hardware goes....except for the new hard drive I just installed as the other one was starting to create problems due to age on the drive.

John Miliunas
08-20-2004, 1:58 PM
I'm running Norton's complete suite of protection and firewall.



Dennis, when you say, "..complete suite of..." for Norton, you're not talking "System Works" or "Norton Utilities", are you? If so, that's the first thing I'd ditch!!!! :eek: This is just MHO, but largely based on what we see around campus: Norton Anti-Virus is generally, pretty good both, on and off campus. I can't speak for Norton Internet Security off campus, but on campus, it causes many issues and we don't support it. Both of the utility-type bundles are, as far as we're concerned, big, huge piles of doggy do-do *anywhere*, on or off campus! :eek: They're "designed" to prevent problems, but they don't. Today's operating systems are very dynamic. These apps (Norton) try to keep system files consistent, when in reality, they *need* to change with the updates. The utility, however, doesn't "know" this and then tries to change things back or may even try to prevent the change from happening. Basically, it's trying to "fix" something, that isn't broke! Again, just MHO, but a good place to start. :cool:

Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 2:12 PM
John,

I have Norton Anti-Virus and Norton Internet Security. I've been running them for 2 years now without any problems. Why now? I also use the "Parental Controls" in the Internet Security app for my kids. I have a hardware router/firewall that I used to use, but it was creating problems with access via my cable modem. So I took it out of the loop and things worked again.

My problem only showed up when I replaced the hard drive and done a fresh install on the new drive.

The old drive always had a fresh install of W2K on it as I usually wiped, cleaned and re-installed EVERYTHING from scratch about once every 18 months just to keep things in order.

I can remove the Norton stuff entirely, but I can't install just the AV piece for virus protection since it's part of the suite.


Dennis, when you say, "..complete suite of..." for Norton, you're not talking "System Works" or "Norton Utilities", are you? If so, that's the first thing I'd ditch!!!! :eek: This is just MHO, but largely based on what we see around campus: Norton Anti-Virus is generally, pretty good both, on and off campus. I can't speak for Norton Internet Security off campus, but on campus, it causes many issues and we don't support it. Both of the utility-type bundles are, as far as we're concerned, big, huge piles of doggy do-do *anywhere*, on or off campus! :eek: They're "designed" to prevent problems, but they don't. Today's operating systems are very dynamic. These apps (Norton) try to keep system files consistent, when in reality, they *need* to change with the updates. The utility, however, doesn't "know" this and then tries to change things back or may even try to prevent the change from happening. Basically, it's trying to "fix" something, that isn't broke! Again, just MHO, but a good place to start. :cool:

Chuck Wintle
08-20-2004, 2:17 PM
I would look at the RAM as a possible problem. A faulty stick of RAM can give manyb boot up problems. All ata 133 drives are backwards compatible with ata 66 so that may not be the problem. There might be an flash update for your controller card though.

John Miliunas
08-20-2004, 2:29 PM
Dennis, as long as it's not one of the "utility" suites, it should be OK and I understand your need for the IS one. If your connectivity to all necessary sites is OK, then I wouldn't consider it to be a problem. Given that, I'd be agreeing with Charles on the RAM as a possibility, though if it is, it would usually show up with random lockups/freezes/etc. while operating. Still, may not be a bad idea to check out. If you have multiple sticks of RAM in there, pull them one at a time and try to recreate the issue. If it persists through all the iterations of RAM combinations, then it's probably not the problem. The controller card is a possibility, as well. Sometimes just reinstalling the drivers for it can fix problems.

A few other things to consider, particularly seeing as to how this typically happens at boot: 1) Even though the drive itself is relatively new, there's no guarantee that it's not failing! I just ordered a warranty replacement for one over here, which I just replaced less than 2 months ago!!! :mad: 2) Power supply. Even though they are essentially solid-state (sans the fan), they can get weak with age. One of the main draws on the PSU is going to be at boot. Also, relative to that, the BIOS itself can cause problems at boot, including "power management". Go out to Dell and see if there's a BIOS flash update available for the system board. Good luck and keep us posted... :cool:

Brian Austin
08-20-2004, 2:43 PM
Aside from checking the basic hardware stuff already mentioned (and fully agreeing with the Norton System Works assessment), you might consider going to Win XP Pro. A LOT of BSOD issues were fixed in the upgrade from Win2K to WinXP. It's rare for XP to BS on my systems (50+ in a variety of hardware and software configs).

Paul Downes
08-20-2004, 3:54 PM
Wish I could help you Dennis but I am also having lots of problems with my home computer. I had the same type of problem a year or so ago and ended up doing a reinstall. I'm now setting up Linux SuSa and like it so far. I run xp pro and it is a POS in my opinion. I've had continual problems since I bought it in 2000. A programmer friend of mine tells me that many of his clients do a clean install once a year because the longer they run it the slower it runs and the more it crashes. I'm running a dual boot with partition magic w xp pro on a 80Gig HD and Linux on a 60Gig. The plan is to use SuSa for all internet access because 90%+ of the viruses are written for windows based systems.

Ken Fitzgerald
08-20-2004, 4:09 PM
Paul.....I've been running XP Pro for about 20 months with NO problems. I bought my wife a new system and it came with XP Pro, 2 Gig mem,and 120 G HD. We use MS Explorer to access the Net. I have Norton AV and use Zonealarm for security. I periodically run Adaware. My Norton anti-virus is set up to scan incoming and outgoing emails. Zonealarm is a free firewall which I've used from quite a few years. I recently purchased Zonealarm Pro but never experienced any problems using the free versions. My wife's system is hooked to the Net via a cablemodem that I'm required to have because of my occupation. I don't understand why others are experiencing problems...I haven't!

Kevin Arceneaux
08-20-2004, 4:50 PM
A basic question, did you check the BIOS to make sure it was seeing the drive? Some older computers have a hard time with a >50gig hard drive.

Rich Konopka
08-20-2004, 7:55 PM
A basic question, did you check the BIOS to make sure it was seeing the drive? Some older computers have a hard time with a >50gig hard drive.

Kevin brought up an excellent point. I would recommend that you also look at booting up off a boot disk and run chkdsk on the hard drive.

Another thing I would do is check the compatability of the HD controller with the drive by switching to the MOBO controller.

I assume the drive is formatted NTFS ??

Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 8:34 PM
Kevin brought up an excellent point. I would recommend that you also look at booting up off a boot disk and run chkdsk on the hard drive.

Another thing I would do is check the compatability of the HD controller with the drive by switching to the MOBO controller.

I assume the drive is formatted NTFS ??

Rich,

The drive is NTFS. I know that there is a BIOS upgrade out there. I have BIOS verison A10 and there is an A11 that was put out in Aug 2000 which is several months after I got the PC from Dell. What danger is there to flash the BIOS?

Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 8:39 PM
Aside from checking the basic hardware stuff already mentioned (and fully agreeing with the Norton System Works assessment), you might consider going to Win XP Pro. A LOT of BSOD issues were fixed in the upgrade from Win2K to WinXP. It's rare for XP to BS on my systems (50+ in a variety of hardware and software configs).

Brian,

Two questions.

Can a P-III 600 with 256MB RAM run WinXP?
Can I "upgrade" to XP Pro from the existing W2K? I HATE waisting a day with a stupid PC on putting everything back on the box. To me it's all a big waist of time. Can you tell I'm frustrated with all this mess? :eek: :o

Rich Konopka
08-20-2004, 8:40 PM
Rich,

The drive is NTFS. I know that there is a BIOS upgrade out there. I have BIOS verison A10 and there is an A11 that was put out in Aug 2000 which is several months after I got the PC from Dell. What danger is there to flash the BIOS?
I only flash the bios if I'm doing a clean install. Did you do a clean install for the new drive? or did you use a utility to move everything? The support site on dell.com has a forumn that is moderated by dell. Try searching that for any help.

Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 8:50 PM
I only flash the bios if I'm doing a clean install. Did you do a clean install for the new drive? or did you use a utility to move everything? The support site on dell.com has a forumn that is moderated by dell. Try searching that for any help.

Rich,

Everything including formatting the drive and all was done clean from scratch twice already.

Pulling my hair out on this one.!!!! :mad: :eek: :D

Chuck Wintle
08-20-2004, 9:02 PM
I would not flash the BIOS unless something is not working. Since your computer does boot up properly on occasion then I would still suspect bad ram. But have you run a diagnostic on the hard drive? If it is a Maxtor you can download PowerMax and use the utilities to check the drive for problems. I really recommend this. I had a Maxtor drive that gave problems like you describe and it was becaus eit was slowly failing. Powermax can check for this. Just don't perform the low level format.

Dennis Peacock
08-20-2004, 9:12 PM
I would not flash the BIOS unless something is not working. Since your computer does boot up properly on occasion then I would still suspect bad ram. But have you run a diagnostic on the hard drive? If it is a Maxtor you can download PowerMax and use the utilities to check the drive for problems. I really recommend this. I had a Maxtor drive that gave problems like you describe and it was becaus eit was slowly failing. Powermax can check for this. Just don't perform the low level format.

I have a CD that came with the drive "somewhere". Maybe PowerMax is on the CD. I'll check the drive first.....but if the drive is failing, I'm going to have warranty problems.

Drive was bought brand new last April (2003) Installed and used for the very first time Aug 2004. Manufacturers warranty is 1 year from DOP.!!! :eek:

Chuck Wintle
08-20-2004, 9:46 PM
You may need the latest version of Powermax because it will have the drivers for your ata card. I had a problem once using an old version. With version 4.09 it has all the drivers necessary. A boot disk will be created when you run Powermax and you can boot with the disk.

John Miliunas
08-20-2004, 9:46 PM
Brian,

Two questions.

Can a P-III 600 with 256MB RAM run WinXP?
Can I "upgrade" to XP Pro from the existing W2K? I HATE waisting a day with a stupid PC on putting everything back on the box. To me it's all a big waist of time. Can you tell I'm frustrated with all this mess? :eek: :o

Not Brian here, but I think I can answer the questions. Yes, a 600 with 256MB of RAM is fine for XP. No, not a screamer, but I think you may find it running as fast as 2000. Yes, you can do an in-place upgrade from W2K to XP BUT, it's not recommended. Actually, an in-place upgrade is NEVER recommended as a means of trying to "fix" a previous O/S. The best in-place upgrades are those which are done on a smooth-running system. :( Now, before everyone jumps in on the "Windows Sucks" bandwagon, 1/2 our shop is dedicated to Macs and we have a couple Mac guru's in there and their recommendation on the Mac side is the SAME when upgrading major O/S revisions or trying to solve major O/S issues! So there! :p

On the other hand, I would probably try to pursue some of the suggestions here, first. The major caveat today with doing an install like that is security. Admittedly, there are cavernous holes in the base install of XP and, if you go on-line to get the updates without a firewall in place, there's a good chance your machine will be compromised before you ever get all the updates on it! :mad: I'll bet one of the desktop techies at your place of business has all the patches and service pack(s) in-hand on a CD, so that you can do the install and put all the stuff on without having to connect to the Network. Yes, it's all a major PITA, but I've been running this machine from a virgin install for probably close to two years now, without any issues. Good luck and keep us posted! :cool:

Brian Austin
08-21-2004, 12:56 AM
Brian,

Two questions.

Can a P-III 600 with 256MB RAM run WinXP?
Can I "upgrade" to XP Pro from the existing W2K? I HATE waisting a day with a stupid PC on putting everything back on the box. To me it's all a big waist of time. Can you tell I'm frustrated with all this mess? :eek: :o
I'm going to disagree with John a little here but...

1. Yes, a P3-600 will run WinXP. Personally, I'd upgrade the RAM to 512Mb if you can swing it. You'll be happier with it in the long run.

2. Any other O/S and I'd tell you no way, you need to start clean. WinXP, however, has surprised me. Unlike previous upgrades that actually keep the old O/S running, copy a bunch of files, reboots and you have some issues, WinXP does it a little differently. It's almost like a full install without losing the data (and apps) that is already there.

In addition, files are replaced vs checked like old upgrades. It's pretty good at conflict checks, too.

My personal strategy on this one: buy the RAM upgrade and an WinXP Pro upgrade. Install the RAM and run the upgrade. Then run all of the service packs and patches EXCEPT service pack 2 (wait until they fix some things).

BTW, check to confirm that NAV is XP compatible. It should be (2000 and XP use common drivers) but be certain of it for peace of mind.

Good luck!

John Miliunas
08-21-2004, 9:26 AM
I'm going to disagree with John a little here but...

1. Yes, a P3-600 will run WinXP. Personally, I'd upgrade the RAM to 512Mb if you can swing it. You'll be happier with it in the long run.

2. Any other O/S and I'd tell you no way, you need to start clean. WinXP, however, has surprised me. Unlike previous upgrades that actually keep the old O/S running, copy a bunch of files, reboots and you have some issues, WinXP does it a little differently. It's almost like a full install without losing the data (and apps) that is already there.



Brian, definitely agree on "Point 1", but I was looking at a "no-cost/low-cost" solution for Dennis. Chances are, he's already going to need to purchase XP, as it is. LOL...We had a PII (350, I think) come into the shop a while back with a whopping 128MB on it and yes, it was running XP! :eek: What a dog! And, it was in to have a CDRW installed on it! :eek: If I recall, we talked the gal into, at least, kicking it up another 128MB, but that was the most we could get outta' her. Improved it, but no speed demon! :)

On "Point 2", we did a "semi-scientific" test with that approach. We had three identical machines in our Tech Lab and took a 98 box, a W2K box and a fresh one. (Identical Dell Optiplex machines, late model PIII's) Did upgrade paths on both the former installs (which were stable at the time) and a clean install on the latter. Basic business apps (Office, NAV, Oracle, etc...) on all three and tried to be pretty consistent that the same type of stuff was done on all three. At first, all of them were very solid. :) The former 98 box actually went quite well for almost 6 months! Then we'd start getting weird lockups and a couple BSOD's. The former W2K box went for probably close to twice that long before anomalies started to creep up and started getting memory dumps for no apparent good reason. The cold metal XP install ran fine throughout and, quite honestly, I think had gotten the most use, even though we had "tried" to be "fair" about useage. :rolleyes: In the end, we wiped the first two boxes and did fresh XP installs, but left the third alone. After close to two years from the begining of the "experiment", the original XP box is still running stable, though I will admit, seems to be a bit slower than the other two with more recent fresh installs! Obviously, not a real scientific experiment, but close to "real world" useage.

Now, I don't write code, nor even pretend to understand all the underlying intricasies of it, but it appears that some type of "interaction" occurs somewhere along the way. But, one of our top Technologists was indeed very adamant about NOT installing an upgrade path to a machine, which already had an unstable O/S in the hopes of "fixing" it. He agreed that it very well may "fix" the outstanding issues, "on the surface", but in the long-run, the O/S would "find a way" to trip back over whatever was hosing it up in the first place. This guy is a walking, talking, breathing and eating Microsoft brainiac and his advice has never led us astray! So, in the end, no disagreements, just passing along info/experience, which I've dealt with on the very disagreeable subject of operating systems! :eek: :D :cool:

Rich Konopka
08-21-2004, 12:15 PM
I have a CD that came with the drive "somewhere". Maybe PowerMax is on the CD. I'll check the drive first.....but if the drive is failing, I'm going to have warranty problems.

Drive was bought brand new last April (2003) Installed and used for the very first time Aug 2004. Manufacturers warranty is 1 year from DOP.!!! :eek:
Dennis:

Did you try switching to the controller on The Mother Board? You should just to verify it isn't the controller card. Also, can you boot uo off the win2k CD?

Dennis Peacock
08-21-2004, 1:34 PM
Dennis:

Did you try switching to the controller on The Mother Board? You should just to verify it isn't the controller card. Also, can you boot uo off the win2k CD?

The Controller on the MB is only for the "external" devices (meaning non-hard drive). They put the Promise Ultra66 Controller in them to boost the performance of the machine up at least 40% due to the slow IDE controller on the MB.

I can boot from floppy and from CD just fine. Eventually, I can boot from disk just fine. I never had a boot problem from the old 10GB drive replacement. So I'm beginning to suspect that it's "something" to do with large drive support. Yes, once I installed the 80GB drive, it saw it from the bios without a problem, formatting after booting from CD was no problem, full 80GB less the amount for formatting. Bare-Metal install of W2K was no problem and booted fine until we experienced about 3 power "flickers" within a 4 day period. Then it all started to roll down hill.

I may just build me a new machine.

Chaintech 9VIF1VA with 478 socket motherboard w/ P4-2.4GHz processor
2 sticks of PC2100 memory (512MB each)
Chaintech Dragon Black Mini-Tower Case
Sony DVR530A DVD/RW-CDRW drive

Use the existing HD out of my pC hereas well as the existing CDROM drive, keyboard and mouse. At this point, there are $80 in mail-in rebates for the MB and memory alone.

Thoughts?

Dennis Peacock
08-21-2004, 1:35 PM
Then maybe install WinXP? :eek: :D

Oh and did I mention that I found out yesterday that I can purchase WinXP Pro through our company for $90? Is that a decent deal or what? :)

Rich Konopka
08-21-2004, 4:18 PM
The Controller on the MB is only for the "external" devices (meaning non-hard drive). They put the Promise Ultra66 Controller in them to boost the performance of the machine up at least 40% due to the slow IDE controller on the MB.

I can boot from floppy and from CD just fine. Eventually, I can boot from disk just fine. I never had a boot problem from the old 10GB drive replacement. So I'm beginning to suspect that it's "something" to do with large drive support. Yes, once I installed the 80GB drive, it saw it from the bios without a problem, formatting after booting from CD was no problem, full 80GB less the amount for formatting. Bare-Metal install of W2K was no problem and booted fine until we experienced about 3 power "flickers" within a 4 day period. Then it all started to roll down hill.

I may just build me a new machine.

Chaintech 9VIF1VA with 478 socket motherboard w/ P4-2.4GHz processor
2 sticks of PC2100 memory (512MB each)
Chaintech Dragon Black Mini-Tower Case
Sony DVR530A DVD/RW-CDRW drive

Use the existing HD out of my pC hereas well as the existing CDROM drive, keyboard and mouse. At this point, there are $80 in mail-in rebates for the MB and memory alone.

Thoughts?

If you were able to install win2k and format it at ~ 80Gb then it sounds like the system was seeing it ok before the power spikes. I would boot off the win2k CD and try to repair the win2k install. It should not hurt any of your data on the drive if you repair or reinstall. Data will be lost if you format. If you have data that you want to preserve you may try booting from a floppy and try accessing the drive. It sounds like the NTFS drive is toasted. Is the drive split partitioned?

If you are considering another system check out techbargains.com they list some Dell deals that may make you reconsider the bare bones route.

NEWEGG.COM has the XP Pro Upgrade edition for $84 bucks. I have bought from them and they are great to deal with and very good prices on everything.

HTH

Kevin Arceneaux
08-24-2004, 4:15 PM
Me thinks he has a piece of hardware, probably memory, that is bad. IF you have Norton or one of the other diagnostic programs, run it and see what is what.

I put a new system together a few weeks ago - Proconn 600 MB, Athalon 2800+, 512 PC3200 DDR, 2 extra fans, and new case. For a little more than 500 bucks. (I got a real good discount from a local guy) This is my first foray with AMD and I have been more than happy with it. Runs a bit warmer than Intel, but that is the only negative with it. (My first was a homebuilt 286Dx) I just moved the HD's, CD burner, DVD drive, ATI 9700Pro, and Audigy Zx to the new one. I just dropped a new Maxtor HD to try out the ATA133. (I really wanted a SATA drive, but I thought that be a bit much to run by the CFO) The jury is still out whether the MAxtor 133 is any better, though I have noticed fewer lockups with high graphics area's in the sim.

Peter Stahl
08-24-2004, 4:41 PM
OK...while my home pc is running ok (at the moment) I figured I'd ask here and see what the concensus is.

Dell XPS T600r
256MB Memory
Ultra66 HD Controller
Original hard drive? 10GB Maxtor
New hard drive that replaced the old one? 80 GB Maxtor, 7,200 RPM, Ultra133
DVD Player
CDRW
ATI Rage64 Video Card

Since I replaced the hard drive (and I've had to rebuild the box TWICE since changing out the hard drive), I've had problems with the machine booting into W2K.

I get during boot:

Blah-Blah-Blah.....DateStamp.......ntfs.sys
or
Blah-Blah-Blah.....Registry Error

Booting? Well it boots itsself about 10 times with various errors (read Blue Screen of Death) before it FINALLY comes up and allows me to assume some resemblance of normal operation. :rolleyes:

As long as the power doesn't flicker :mad:
As long as I do NOT reboot the pc :mad:
As long as I do NOT shut it down :mad:

It runs fine. What say ye?

I do NOT have the money to buy a new PC. I was hoping to get by until next year before I had to do anything about a PC (read tax refund money).

Is it my Ultra133 hard drive and Ultra66 Promise card that aren't playing well together? I just want to resolve the booting problem and inject some stability back into my home pc world.

<b>I NEED your help!!!!!</b> :confused: :confused: :confused: :D

I forgot to add one thing....I do have WinXP Pro laying around. Just don't run it on this machine as it is already slow.......


Dennis,

check this out below, it's from the help section in the Western Digital web site. I bought a Ultra 100 card for my WD 80GB drive and they have this in the manual too. I think you said you're running Win 2K. I haven't had time to install it yet so I can't verify what they say.

Pete

Here's the link to it.
http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_faqid=948&p_created=1049921071

IMPORTANT (Windows 2000/XP Users Only): Hard drives connected to the Ultra ATA controller card will not boot into the Windows operating system without driver support. If you wish to use your current bootable hard drive with an existing Windows operating system on the controller card, you must first install the drivers onto the old drive prior to installing your new Western Digital hard drive. For instructions see Answer ID 403.