Do you refuse to use ply?

[dan sherman]

As I've gotten into "finer" woodworking, I've found my self refusing to use ply more and more often. To me using ply seams cheap, especially when I spend ridiculous amounts of time making custom moldings, applying finishes etc.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that feels this way!

[Art Mulder]

If you're a hobbiest, you can build with whatever you darn well please.
If you're trying to make a living with this... that's another story.

I'm in the hobbiest camp. I use generally what I feel like, but I'm also a pragmatic person who does not have buckets of spare time. So I also use what I think suits the project and situation.

over the winter, I built a small bookcase, and put on a shiplapped solid-wood back, just cuz I wanted to. A few years back I built a bookcase with a plywood back. Later this year I'm thinking of a stand/cabinet that will hold an aquarium. That'll probably have lots of cabinet plywood in it also.

Works for me. It's my hobby, and I'm pleased with it... :D

[Chris Padilla]

There are wood and wood products that have their place for certain situations for certain people. There is nothing wrong with using solid hardwood if it works for you just like there is nothing wrong with using plywood if it works for you. I have a project (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396) that is 100% veneer-covered MDF with a little hardwood thrown in. :)

I think the only reason furniture of 100-200 years ago was made of solid wood was because that was all they had. Craftsman of that time might have actually liked to used plywood here and there as it probably could have saved them time and agony (in dealing with wood movement).

[Neal Clayton]

i don't like plywood either.

the only use i have for it is flat door panels. even then i don't really like it, just use it out of convenience.

[Don Selke]

There are times when using plywood makes a lot of sense. When making up large panels for case work or tops, you do not have to worry about or make allowances for wood movement due to humidity changes. Good and I emphasize good, plywood is a very stable product.

[Prashun Patel]

Um, have you ever tried to buy a sheet of furniture grade cherry or sapele plywood? It's almost cheaper to buy solid stock.

[Steve Clardy]

Being in the kitchen cabinet business, it would be tough without using plywood. No way am I going to do casework out of solid wood.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Yah I'll use Ply. However the caveat is like any other such consideration: It all depends on the application and the final look.

Plywood is large and flat. If that's what you need it may just do the trick.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

What are you building?
Cabinet bases I would use plywood, since it's more stable and easier. Cabinet grade ply is as expensive as solid wood at times, it's just much easier to use. It would take a lot of time and gluing and sanding and more gluing and more sanding to make an 8 foot cabinet with 8 or 12 inch boards. And it probably won't be totally straight and level. 1 cut on a table saw for plywood....... No brainer for me.
I guess you could tongue and groove......

I'm not a plywood snob.

[Larry Fox]

Not adverse at all to using it for things like, not-seen parts of casework, drawer bottoms, veneer substrate, backs of things like dressers, etc. It has it'a place in my opinion.

[Fred Hargis]

Someone else mentioned this...but good cabinet grade ply can be, and usually is (at least around me) more expensive than hardwood. I'll use it when the advantages of ply contribute...and they (advantages) can be considerable in some projects.

[Jamie Buxton]

...good cabinet grade ply can be, and usually is (at least around me) more expensive than hardwood. ....

Wow. That's very different from my sources. I buy hardwood-veneer 3/4" plywood suitable for making cabinets, at prices from the area of $60/sheet (oak, maple) to $100/sheet (cherry). From the same dealers, 4/4 oak and maple are in the $5/bdft area, and cherry is in the $8 area. That is, the per square foot the lumber is three or four times the cost of the plywood.

[Rich Hoffman]

I feel that plywood can be used in conjunction with solid wood without detracting from the overall beauty of the furniture. I have always grouped the two together with great success. Of course making all the trim pcs such as crown, bases and door frames with solid. Once the piece is finished you really can't tell the difference just by looking at it. But your jointing must be perfect. The last large built in it did for a client was 22' long 10' high and 26" deep. I used 25 pcs of plywood in it. Now how mush longer would it have taken to glue all that up I hate to think.

What we know as plywood today was invented by Emmanuel Nobel, father of Alfred Nobel, the famous inventor of dynamite and founder of the Nobel Prize. (In the 1850s)

[Roger Jensen]

I live in northern California and just paid $114/sheet for 3/4" cherry plywood. Not sure how this compares to cherry hardwood pricing, but it doesn't feel like I'm saving money by going with plywood. I'm building kitchen cabinets so hardwood isn't an option in this case. (BTW - I'm using cherry for some end cabinets that will have open shelves, the rest of the cabinets are pre-finished maple).

[dan sherman]

let me quantify my post a little more. I'm a home shop guy, so I only really need to worry about my own personal satisfaction.

take this night stand for example.
http://www.kincaidfurniture.com/item_detail_type.cfm?pid=2666
It's got nice ogee feet, fluting, an looks pretty good to my eye.

If i would build something like this it would be all hard wood, as using ply, would feel like cutting corners or cheating (at least to me).

Like others have said Quality ply cost more in my area than hardwood.

[Jeff Dege]

If i would build something like this it would be all hard wood, as using ply, would feel like cutting corners or cheating (at least to me).
If I had such a piece, I'd feel not the least cheated if the back and/or the drawer bottoms were ply, and it wouldn't detract from my evaluation of its quality. I'd not expect ply on the top, sides, or drawer fronts.

[Jason Beam]

let me quantify my post a little more. I'm a home shop guy, so I only really need to worry about my own personal satisfaction.

take this night stand for example.
http://www.kincaidfurniture.com/item_detail_type.cfm?pid=2666
It's got nice ogee feet, fluting, an looks pretty good to my eye.

If i would build something like this it would be all hard wood, as using ply, would feel like cutting corners or cheating (at least to me).

Like others have said Quality ply cost more in my area than hardwood.

Heck no ... i'd use all sorts of ply in that project. Cheating? Short cut?

No way - ply has distinct advantages where i'd use it. Like for the back panel. Having it be one single piece adds a whole lot of rigidity to the piece.

Or for the drawer bottoms? Dimensional stability is a huge factor here since I wouldn't really want to have to deal with the movement issues of solid wood for the drawer bottoms.

I'd also use it for dust panels if I were going to use 'em. This is my favorite because cheap ply will suffice since it isn't visible, it is stable so I can mount it firmly and as a result would further add more rigidity to the piece.

I'm a self proclaimed wood snob, to be sure. If you want something that color, i say use a wood that IS that color. I'm absolutely anti-stain. But when it comes to ply vs. solids, there are distinct engineering and design advantages to "abandoning" tradition and going with the ply. I would argue that you're actually following tradition - the tradition of using the best possible material to produce a quality piece.

Quality is a tough thing to define, but just because something has plywood in it doesn't mean it's of lower quality. It depends on where it's used. The ancient Egyptians used plywood for things. There is a time and a place for it. I'd argue that the same cannot be said about stain :P

[Billy Chambless]

If I had such a piece, I'd feel not the least cheated if the back and/or the drawer bottoms were ply, and it wouldn't detract from my evaluation of its quality. I'd not expect ply on the top, sides, or drawer fronts.

That's pretty much how I see it, too.

[Caspar Hauser]

I may be being overly simplistic, but it seems to me that.. Plywood, Flake Board, Rare Hardwood, Knotty Pine, Screws, Nails, exquisite formal Joinery, Metal, Glass, MDF, Electronics, Plastic, Fabric, Leather, Paint, New, Reclaimed, Recycled, Chippendale, Bauhaus, Surely it doesn't matter, Form follows Function, but you decide the function and therefore the form and the materials, use all of your skill and whimsey, have more fun than is humanly possible, innovate and make stuff!
:)

[Thomas S Stockton]

Couldn't make the furniture I do without plywood. The biggest difference is the consistancy of figure and grain you get with a veneered panel. I also do a lot of curved work that is made easier with plywood.
As for price difference a sheet of plywood has 32 square feet in it so your lumber would need to cost less than $3.10 a bdft if the ply was $100 a sheet to break even. Cherry is easily more than $5 a bdft and you have to glue up and sand your panels.
Bottom line is use what you want and feel is right for the piece.
Tom

[Peter Quinn]

I use plywood for all sots of things. Keep in mind when you price plywood that there is a waste factor, as in solid wood. You pay for 32 sq feet, but you wind up with drops that can't be used for much, unless you are building stock sized kitchen type cabs whose sizes are geared to utilize sheet goods efficiently. So you may want to divide the price by your actual yield for the project at hand to figure out the true cost.

And there are many different grades of plywood. Have you priced AA architectural grade cherry with plain sawn, not rotary sawn veneers on both faces lately? Or mahogany/sapele in flat sawn, which can run $220+. If you find AA cherry for $100 a sheet buy it quick and send it to me, cause its going for $180 around here. And that puts it neck and neck with solid wood construction until you factor in labor. Sure, rotary sawn red oak is cheap, but I'd rather work with cardboard aesthetically.

I wouldn't say fine furniture can't include plywood, but admittedly I shy away from it generally for that use for the simple things I build for myself. For tables it seems particularly ill suited, but for bigger case work it can simplify things considerably. And for veneer work its a blessing. Would you want to build doors or drawer fronts from solid walnut burl or crotch considering its lack of dimensional stability and great cost, and would you want to go through the work of creating what is essentially lumber core plywood in your own shop for veneer work to have bragging rights as the guy who doesn't use engineered products in his shop?

[Joe Cunningham]

If I had such a piece, I'd feel not the least cheated if the back and/or the drawer bottoms were ply, and it wouldn't detract from my evaluation of its quality. I'd not expect ply on the top, sides, or drawer fronts.

That pretty much mirrors my feelings. The back and drawer bottoms being ply seems quite sensible to me, unless the back is going to be highly visible. In that case I'd do a frame and panel back.

[Paul Ryan]

I generally use solid wood when ever possible. As others have said there are times when it doesn't make sense you use plywood. Like places where you generally use 1/4, such as backs of a shelf. And don't use it when when dealing with wood movement can be a real problem. But for me cost is about even.But as a hobbiest time isn't as much of a concern. But when trying to make money gluing up panel takes extra time and money as well.

[sean m. titmas]

i build a variety of projects that involve solid wood only, veneer plywood, mdf or a combination of all of them. to be successful at building furniture and cabinets i cannot rule out using a particular product just because some manufacturers build their cheap and crappy products with the material in question ie, plywood and mdf. i can take mdf and veneer plywood and build a $3000 entertainment unit that will not only please the client but stand up against a close inspection by my critics and pass muster. The choice of materials doesn’t affect the quality of a piece rather the skill of the craftsman building it does. being a good carpenter means that you can work with any kind of material and through the process of cutting it up into small pieces and than joining them back together into a pleasing shape you can cause the client to form an emotional bond with the finished piece and than pay me lots of money for it.

when im building something for a client the choice of using plywood or not has a lot to do with what they want the piece to look like and how much they are willing to pay. on many projects there ways to use both plywood and solid wood for the same piece. and than there are times when plywood is the only way to achieve the desired look. no matter what the material is i try use it in a way that amplifies its strong qualities and avoids the negatives.

personally i love to build stuff that uses all solid wood. frame and panels, bent laminations, large glue ups and steam bent curves get me all excited by putting my skills to work to make the wood take a shape that is beyond the obvious.

i try to emulate the carpenters of 100 years ago by using every modern tool and material at my disposal to produce the most beautiful hand crafted pieces that i am capable of. i aim to have my work last long after im gone to give pleasure to whom ever uses it.

[Mike Henderson]

i try to emulate the carpenters of 100 years ago by using every modern tool and material at my disposal to produce the most beautiful hand crafted pieces that i am capable of. i aim to have my work last long after im gone to give pleasure to whom ever uses it.
Very well said.

Mike

[Dan Lee]

Well I disagree somewhat.
I make plywood for some projects by vacuum pressing. The inside bottom, flat panels and inside pieces and top in the pics are baltic birch with 1/16" home sawn veneers vacuum pressed. Dont need to worry about expansion contraction in these cases
I don't normly use commercial ply veneer cause its to thin

[Jim Becker]

Depends upon the piece. I do utilize BB ply a lot more than I used to, but generally for internal carcasses for casework where I'm wrapping with the "good stuff", both solids and veneers. But some projects don't lend themselves to this and I'll use solid stock--usually cherry which I happen to love.

[Joe Mioux]

nothing wrong with plywood.

consider the advantages of it over solid wood.

both have their place.


joe

[Stephen Tashiro]

Refuse to use plywood? The next thing you know, you'll be refusing to use power tools.

How do you make the back of a bookshelf? It would be interesting to me to make it out of some pine boards that I could buy at the hardware store. But I don't think it would be practical for my skills and equipment.

[Jim Kountz]

I think there are times when ply is a suitable alternative. I guess it depends entirely on what you're building.
Of course if you're doing an authentic reproduction of something its out of the question. Other than that however its all good.

[Frank Drew]

I'm with most others here; ply is appropriate for some jobs, certainly something like a wall unit or built-in bookcase, but if the client is expecting "heirloom" quality freestanding furniture, I'd probably use solid except for drawer bottoms, backs perhaps, etc., or make my own ply for panels. No matter what the job, I wouldn't use commercial plywood for any surface liable to wear, such as a table top.

At one point, some years ago, I just couldn't seem to buy a piece of hardwood ply that stayed flat; maybe the quality has improved since then.

[Chip Lindley]

"GOOD" plywood is a joy to use. It has it's place in project building. The crappy stuff found at BORGs everywhere lends a bad name to what once was a flat, stable and attractive choice for wood projects. Add to ugly, the worry of delamination, and it is not a viable alternative for any sort of quality woodwork.

Rotary-sliced red oak, and birch ply at BORGs has an A-face that I would not consider a C-face. I looked through 20 pieces of 3/4 RO stuff to find one piece without a dark blotch or knot in the veneer, suitable for my son's high school wood project. AND, the crap was $60 a sheet!!

Sliced-veneer hardwood ply is some beautiful stuff. Pricy, but certainly an alternative to veneering a substrate by hand! Quality ply is stable dimensionally, and certainly much lighter than MDF or PB for cabinet use! And does not swell or disintergrate at the first hint of Moisture!

In my woodworking infancy, I remodelled a friends kitchen with only a table saw and router! The frame/panel doors were simplistic but turned out very nicely. (much nicer than the "mediterranean-black and red" I tore out!! Door panels were made by laminating two thicknesses of beautiful, sliced 1/8" RO ply, to give an A-face on both sides. I also used the 1/8" stuff to reface cabinet ends on uppers and lowers. Now I cannot find 1/8" RO ply locally at all!

YES, Ply has it's ligitimate uses, but not just ANY PLY!!

[Sean Nagle]

Dan,


I'm with most others here; ply is appropriate for some jobs, certainly something like a wall unit or built-in bookcase, but if the client is expecting "heirloom" quality freestanding furniture, I'd probably use solid except for drawer bottoms, backs perhaps, etc., or make my own ply for panels. No matter what the job, I wouldn't use commercial plywood for any surface liable to wear, such as a table top.


Frank is dead on with expectations for the piece.

Heirloom furniture in many traditional styles really needs to be built with solid wood construction, involving all the difficult and time-consuming techniques to deal with wood movement of case goods such as frame and panel or dovetailed construction of cases and drawer boxes, sliding dovetailed applied moldings, lapped backs attached with mechanical fasteners, etc. Now these can be built using plywoods and lower-quality solid woods and stained to look like traditional, old pieces. They can be quite convincing to the untrained eye and are exactly what you find in furniture stores.

However, Dan Lee shows an excellent example of heirloom quality furniture with contemporary styling cues and construction employing engineered sheetgoods. His technique allows artistic expression with efficient use of rare, figured woods using handsawn or flat-sliced veneers. The top of his table really needs a stable surface like MDF for the veneer that can then be wrapped with a mitered framed without having to deal with wood movement.

Built-ins and cabinets (kitchen, bath, laundry and shop) are most easily built using engineered sheetgoods. Dealing with wood movement would be a serious challenge. In my opinion, making built-in cabinets using solid wood construction is simply a waste of precious wood.

[David Keller NC]

let me quantify my post a little more. I'm a home shop guy, so I only really need to worry about my own personal satisfaction.

take this night stand for example.
http://www.kincaidfurniture.com/item_detail_type.cfm?pid=2666
It's got nice ogee feet, fluting, an looks pretty good to my eye.

If i would build something like this it would be all hard wood, as using ply, would feel like cutting corners or cheating (at least to me).

Like others have said Quality ply cost more in my area than hardwood.

What you've referred to qualifies my opinion greatly. While there is no question that engineered wood products in some circumstances offer a dimensional stability impossible with solid wood, plywood has no place in a high quality reproduction that you reference.

I should note that I've used plywood for modern pieces extensively. An aquarium cabinet, for example is actually lower quality if it's built completely of solid wood. There's a couple of reasons - context and safety. The high humidity/liquid water aspect of aquariums makes using all solid wood and being confident that a joint won't pull apart and dump 850 lbs, of water and broken glass on a living room floor very, very difficult. Moreover, an aquarium, at least the kind we have now with 5 sides of glass and no corner reinforcement is 100% modern.

However, the piece you reference is a scaled-down example of a Boston case piece from the 1770s. Putting aside for a moment that it's marginally appropriate to make a "nightstand" out of such a form (nightstands are a modern invention), in my opinion you cannot separate the historical context of such a piece and its construction.

Part of this has to do with our modern expectations. There is a tidal wave of cheap 'n crappy furniture that's so-called "traditional" in places like Ethan Allen and Havertys. There's no doubt that it will hold books and clothes, but it is (rightly) percieved by woodworkers and the public alike to be "curb" furniture.

I do not wish my reproductions to ever be confused with such junk. Even though a plywood drawer bottom will be more dimensionally stable than the equivalently sized solid wood bottom, the expectation of someone trying to determine if the piece is an antique or not is to pull open a drawer and find solid wood. My aim is to make it extraordinarily difficult for even an expert 100 years from now to figure out whether the piece was made in 1770 or 2009. To that end, absolutely no plywood is used in any part of the construction, including the drawer bottoms and backs.

That said, if I've got a request to build a kid's toy box, I'd probably knock it out of plywood, except for one ugly consideration. It's becoming increasingly difficult to source US made plywood - it gets mixed in with a lot of stuff manufactured in Asia. Much of the Asian stuff is even made of US hardwood veneer. However, my experience with this stuff is that it emits a strong odor of formaldehyde, to the point where some of it I've purchased bubbled a polyurethane finish - US made plywood parts in the same piece had no odor, and there was no evidence in the same coat of finish that out-gassing was occuring.

Throw in the CSPIA act of 2008. Even though the regulations have been stayed for a year, it's pretty clear that even in the best case articles intended for children will either have to be tested (an impossible provision for most home woodworkers), or it will have to be made of raw wood with no finish - manufactured materials are not allowed.

[Dan Lee]

Agreed with a classic design such as this. Not much opportunity or benifit to use ply home brew or otherwise anyway


let me quantify my post a little more. I'm a home shop guy, so I only really need to worry about my own personal satisfaction.

take this night stand for example.
http://www.kincaidfurniture.com/item_detail_type.cfm?pid=2666
It's got nice ogee feet, fluting, an looks pretty good to my eye.

If i would build something like this it would be all hard wood, as using ply, would feel like cutting corners or cheating (at least to me).

Like others have said Quality ply cost more in my area than hardwood.

[Frank Drew]

In my opinion, making built-in cabinets using solid wood construction is simply a waste of precious wood.

Sean,

A friend of mine, during his "purist" phase, built a walnut bookcase (built-in) and used top quality solid walnut for all the shelves. Made me crazy thinking about it.

[David G Baker]

I like good plywood but finding good plywood locally is almost impossible. There are areas where the best wood to use is plywood.