Which 3M dust protection?

[jason lambert]

Ok I was looking at the 3M Airstream since that is what I see most people with, however I was trying to get a hold of a plug so I wouldn't have to spend $150 on there battery charger and called 3m. When speaking with the tech he sugested I go with the 6800pf power flow.
http://www.professionalequipment.com/3m-powerflow-papr-respirator-medium-3m-6800pf/respirator-masks/

he said it was more efficant and that is what most wood workers use and cheaper. I know they also have a unit where the blower is on the belt.

Since I can't go try these on what units do most turners use and why? What should I buy?

[Scott Hackler]

Holy Moly, I can tell you that I wouldnt spend that kinda money on breathing protection. I use safey goggles (sometimes) and only during sanding I have my shop dust collector wheeled right up to the lathe and the hose bungie corded to the ways. It captures, probally 90% of all the fine particles and for the rest I use the disposable paper masks.

If I thought that I was in an environment where that $600+ mask would be needed.... I dont think I would want to be doing it.... but thats just me.

[Judy Kingery]

Jason,

I find a half face 3M respirator works fine for me and use that when sanding or using chemicals (it's particulate and chemical both). I like it, have used it for years, change out the cartridges, can't even recall what I paid for it, maybe $45 or so.

Best to you finding what suits your needs,

Jude

[Burt Alcantara]

I have the 6800 but without the blower. Mine was about $85. I have a boat load of the 7000 cartridges so this was an easy buy for me. The mask is rated by OSHA and NIOSH. I find it easy to see and breath. Since I can use any cartridge I want, I can also put on vapor carts when spraying or in the event of some ecological disaster I can put on virtually any cartridge made for any situation.

Don't want no stinkin' batteries.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I would imagine spending that kind of money would depend on what income your turning generates. If you turn a LOT and make money that justifies that, then it would be a worthy investment. Health should not be a compromise. Or, if money is no object, health wins all the time.
For me, a hobby turner, I also use the half face respirator. I cannot justify spending any more than 50 bucks. If you do decide to go non forced flow, get the organic filters, they trap the smaller particles. If you can smell what you're turning, it's not an organic. It's kind of a bummer when turning the aromatic woods, but then, fungi are a drag too.

My .02. YMMV.

[David Hostetler]

Not going to bother with the powered respirator / face shield gizmos... I have been using the N95 disposables / face shield rig. I started out with a 3M 6200 / cartridge / safety glasses setup years ago, but got a bunch plumper over the years with too much home brewed beer and good food... So I am now using the large size 3M 7200 series with cartridges / safety glasses. (The over the prescription glasses sort from Lowes). I am quite happy with the setup. I have talked with several industrial safety and health engineers and gotten their recommendations on this setup. I am pretty sure I am okay here...

[Gordon Seto]

I would imagine spending that kind of money would depend on what income your turning generates. If you turn a LOT and make money that justifies that, then it would be a worthy investment. Health should not be a compromise. Or, if money is no object, health wins all the time.


I disagree. If every woodturner has to justify every tool purchase like a business should be. I dare say more than half won't pass the CPA test. I think if we add the shop supplies, reasonable cost of shop, automobile usage, minimum wage to ourselves; half of the expensive lathe owners should down grade to Harbor Freight lathes and sell at least half of their toys collection to balance the books.
I belong to two very active groups. Most of the members are retired or close to retirement. A lot of the members whose houses have been paid for, kids are grown up. They have earned their rights to spend their grand kids inheritance. This hobby is their live style.
For younger person, they have to balance between the family saving, kids education. The consideration is different.
Sorry for taking a detour on this discussion.

For that kind of money, the Airstream may not be that bad with the additional protection of the hard hat.

You may also want to look at the auction site for the charger. After the Y2K scare, I saw a lot of the 3M respirators dumped on the auction site.
I don't know whether this is the same unit, but the price is a lot better:
http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/product/3m-powerflow-respirator-3m-papr.html

[jason lambert]

Well I am 36 just had a kid so I guess I should save. My lungs are shot thought after remodeling 2 homes and woodwork so I am limited how much I can do. and every time I go work even thought I ware a mask I still wiind up blowing out wood dust ot if my nose. Never thought much of it. I figured with a power reperrator it would be better. I have gone through almost every non power one and the AO safety one I like the best but gets sweaty and wet and kind of uncomfortable, smelly + I can't fit it under a face shied. Maybe I am going the wrong direction, not sure now.

[David Walser]

Jason,

Back when I started working in a furniture mill, the only people wearing more than a simple disposable dust mask were those working in the spray booths. I'd come home after a day of work and I'd be spitting up wood-enriched phlegm for hours. Back then, we didn't think a little wood dust would do any harm -- it was natural, after all. Now we know better. (I don't think I was harmed, because I quit the mill after a relatively short time so I could finish my schooling.) With today's knowledge about the harmful effects of wood dust, I think a powered air respirator is something most, if not all, hobbyists should strive to acquire and use.

That doesn't mean everyone needs a top-of-the-line 3M Airstream. The Trend Airshield Pro or the (now out of production?) Triton Respirator should be more than adequate for most hobbyists. My concern about the Trend product is it uses non-standard filters and that I don't find it's balance to be comfortable for long wear. (The Triton uses standard canister filters available in many hardware and large box stores. In addition, it's belt power pack keeps much of the weight off the head.) My concern with the Triton is that it uses NiCad batteries and it does not come with a smart charger. (NiCad's slowly lose their charge once they are removed from the charger -- even if the device is not used. Worse, unless a smart charger is used, the batteries will overheat and be ruined if they are left on the charger too long. So, a hobbyest who only uses the resperator once or twice a month may find it hard to keep the Triton's batteries ready for use whenever he wants to work in the shop.) Despite these short comings, both products are better than a disposable dust mask!

While I prefer a powered respirator, a twin cartridge respirator (with a rubber mask that fits over the nose and mouth) or the resp-o-rator will also serve. My concern about making the twin cartridge respirator the primary mask in your arsenal is that it's rubber mask can make it far less comfortable than a powered respirator. My fear is that, human nature being what it is, too often we'll solve for immediate comfort rather than long-term health and leave the respirator work bench. (I have a twin cartridge respirator as the back up to my Triton, for when the batteries need to be charged. Too often, I allow myself to get by with the dust collector and large fan.)

HTH

[Jim Burr]

Hey Jason,
As a practicing Respiratory Therapist, trust me when I tell you, I can and have ranted like a mule about dust protection. I see people everyday that wish they had. The effects are cumulative and un-escapable.
To that end I use a Trend for bigger projects; bowls and peppermills or a OSHA\MSA duel filter respirator for smaller stuff.

Cheers!

[Brian McInturff]

I guess I'll chime in here. I've worn respirators for over 25 years. I'm in the environmental cleanup biz so it's just part of our tools of the trade. A regular twin cartridge respirator, I wouldn't dream of putting one on at home. Anyone that enjoys wearing one, well, there's something wrong with you. They are uncomfortable. Move around too much and the seal around the face can come loose and then the vision part will fog up from your own breathing. Spend the money and go with at least the Trend. I just decided over the weekend to spring for the Airstream, it's worth it to me. Respirators are fine but they take the enjoyment out of turning and so you will end up not using it. Put a face shield over the respirator and see how distorted everything begins to look. With the trend or airstream you get the added benefit of the hardhat and face shield. The little "dust mask" you pick up at lowes isn't going to give you any benefit. But hey, it's your money and your lungs. By the time you realize you have to have one it's usually to late.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Gordon. So, everyone who turns should use a forced fed respirator? I think not. I turn infrequently and my lathe costs WAY less than 600 bucks. I only own a Mini. A half face respirator captures most (99.9%) of the dust. Organic fliters should get rid of most fungi and aromatics. Yeah they not comfortable. Yeah, not all the dust. But I'm not talking those POS paper masks. I do think they are worthless. May as well use a rag. You can also go to the extremes and say you should use a forced fed respirator to vacuum your house. The same hazzards exist from your floor. Kicked up by the vacuum cleaner. Even a HEPA V/C is only 99.98%. The rest is in the air.

All I'm saying is 610 bucks is a lot to spnd for me, who turns once a week.

[David Walser]

Gordon. So, everyone who turns should use a forced fed respirator? ...

All I'm saying is 610 bucks is a lot to spnd for me, who turns once a week.

Gordon can speak for himself, but I think it's only fair to point out that I didn't read Gordon's comment to mean that everyone needs to buy a powered respirator. I thought he was just saying that many turners don't need to justify the cost of a respirator (or any other tool) on the basis of whether or not we can sell enough turnings to "justify the cost". For many of us, this is a hobby that provides a "return" in terms of satisfaction rather than dollars and cents. For those of us who have a budget that can afford it, a powered respirator is might nice to have.

Now, you might fairly read what I wrote to mean that every turner should have a powered respirator. That's not what I intended. I realize a powered respirator is a lot of money. So is a lung transplant. A dual cartridge respirator -- like the one you can buy at the local hardware store for less than $50 -- is adequate protection. My concern with them is the rubber half-mask is uncomfortable to wear and many of us will find it too easy to rationalize not wearing it. (Besides, the ONLY piece of turning equipment my beautiful bride hasn't questioned my purchasing was the Triton Respirator. She's the one that kept pestering me to get something better than the dust-b-gone that I was using because the dual cartridge respirator was uncomfortable. So, many of our spouses might actually make sure we have the budget to buy the powered respirator if they knew the health risks of going without adequate protection.)

YMMV.

[Chris Struttman]

Jason,

I used to use a half mask AO Safety device with the twin cartridges and it worked pretty well. However, it was so hot and sweaty that I ended up not using it much at all. I thought as long as I was only sanding for a couple minutes it wouldnt make a difference. Inevitably I would spend the next couple of hours blowing wood dust out of my nose. I also noticed that I was tending to get what felt like sinus infections every couple of months.

A couple months ago I picked up a Trend Airshield Pro and it I have not had the issue since. It feels great while wearing it and I would say that it even makes you feel cooler, which is important to me since I turn in my garage.

[Ryan Baker]

I will echo what Jim and Brian have said. Yes, these respirators are a lot of money, but it is a tiny price to pay to save your lungs. We all should get used to the idea of spending less on the lathe and tools if necessary to come up with the funds for good breathing protection. Don't underestimate the cumulative damage you get from even occasional exposure. Buy and use the best protection you can afford. Get something that is comfortable enough that you will actually use it. I recently started using the Trend Pro, and it makes an enormous difference in the amount of dust I breathe. I may still upgrade someday to the 3M or something similar, for the better filtering of the really fine stuff (which does the most harm).

[Don Carter]

Jason:
This is what I use: http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/product/3M-6000-Series-Half-Facepiece-Welding-Respirator-Assembly.html
I also use a face shield.

This is the first thing I put on when I enter my shop to work. It is very lightweight and comfortable. I think we all should use the most effective safety equipment that we can afford.

[Mark Kosmowski]

I'm budgeting for a 3M PAPR now too. I have a half-face that I don't wear too much anymore, mostly due to the iffy seal if my beard has gone too long since a trimming. Looking at all the crazy stuff people for their appearance I don't even feel all that vain saving up for about $1,000 to safely keep my beard.

Also, I'm still recovering from a nasty bronchitis that started a couple months ago. You only need one episode of coughing so bad that you just about lose consciousness driving in to work to decide that a grand isn't all that expensive relative to the total cost of our woodworking hobby for the benefit it brings.

We all make our own decisions on safety in our shops - as long as we know the risks properly, whatever decision we make is the right decision for ourselves. (Not saying everyone should go get a PAPR, but anyone who wants one should feel fine getting one - even if they're a hobbyist.)

[Gordon Seto]

Kyle,
I am afraid you have missed my point. To most of us, woodturning is just a hobby. Some may occasionally sell some turnings, very few can justify what we have. It would drive someone crazy if we want to keep up with the Jones. Only we can decide what priority we can spend our own money. The OP was asking a $610 alternative for a $690 Airstream which comes with hard hat.
http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/category/3m-airstream-papr-powered-respirator.html
What OP needs is just a $140 smart charger. IMO, I would just get the charger and continue to use the Airstream he already has.
I am not saying a passive respirator doesn't work. But being uncomfortable, some of us may choose to take the chance and not to wear it all the time. I have used them before. During the hot humid days; they are uncomfortable and fogging up the safety glasses. It won't do any good if we are not wearing it.

The following was the post in another forum today (it is a violation to link other forum in SMC), I hope the author doesn't mind I copied it here:
I am nearly 77 years old and worked the majority of my life in dusty environments. I can count the times I used a mask with just my figers and toes. Don't ever remember a dust collector in any of my places of employment. I also smoked heavily from age 11 to 50. And until 1992 I was known to take a nip or two or eight or twelve of the -------,(fill in the blank). I now have lungs that are able to inhale only 22% of capacity, my blood oxygen level is 80 when it should be at least 95. I use a nebulizer a few times a day. I sleep with an oxygen hose up my nose.
Get out of breathe when I walk from my garage to the road, about 60 feet.
So if you don't use dust control equipment you will probably be like me if you live to be my age.
We can't eliminate all the risks we have in life. They are our choices to make. I hope we can make them wisely.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I guess I have went overboard according to some. I went in for a breathing problem never thinking about sanding dust. When the Doctor told me that it can cause bronchitis or emphysema it got my attention real quick especially after watching my grandfather who was a cabinet maker die a long slow death from emphysema. I bought a Trend Pro, a air cleaner that hangs from the ceiling and my DC. I will say with the latter two that the dust laying around in my shop has decreased a lot. So I would say get the best you can. As the therapist told me you only got one set of lungs and when they are done it is done. I can say after 8 months I have my lung capacity back and it won't happen again. All three of the above go on when I walk in the shop.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I guess the bottom line is, if I use a 99.9% mask, for less than 50 bucks, is the 300+ bucks a worthy investment for that 0.08% additional protection. Yes, the half mask is a TINY bit uncomfortable. I live where it's 85 degrees 364 days a year and humidity is over 70% all the time. I don't think its uncomfortable to the point of not using it. I didn't look up the specs, but most air fed respirators are 99.98%. IF I turned every day, it would be in my shop. That would also be a no brainer. Being comfortable is a lot of the enjoyment of turning. Until I retire, I'll work 60 hours a week and turn once a week. Until I'm near retirement, I don't think I have the time to turn enough to warrant such an investment, for .08% effectiveness. It's your money if you want to spend it, kudos to you. IF I had spare money, I wouldn't hesitate. Kids in college puts a lot of cramp in the budget.

Yes 610 bucks is less than a lung. That is a moot point.

[Scott Conners]

I guess the bottom line is, if I use a 99.9% mask
The key word there is the if. For me, I end up grabbing my P95 fiber mask more often than than I should over my half face respirator, because I just can't wear the respirator for too long because of comfort issues. A trend air shield or similar is in my near future, because having that 99.9% respirator does me no good when it sits on the shelf because my neck aches too much to put it on.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Get a bigger or different half face that fits? I have a half face sitting on my shelf that I don't use due to lack of comfort. I agree, any mask does you no good sitting on the shelf.

For me the only time I don't use a dust mask and turn, well, I can't remember the last time I turned without a mask..... Probably 10 years ago. Maybe more.

[Hilel Salomon]

The operative word in deciding what protection , if any, you need , is CUMULATIVE. Damage from dust is just that. It's imperceptible, but it will inevitably cause irreparable damage. Some species of wood are worse than others, but even a few hours of turning a week, using non-spalted, relatively wet wood will hurt you unless you wear some form of protection. The occasional turner can probably get by with some HF nose and eye protection, but the point is that every individual has to make that choice.
When I started to go and visit friends in VA hospitals, I can't tell you the number of smokers who were there, dying. I know all about 100 year old chain smokers who have defied the odds, and I'm sure that there are turners who have defied the odds as well. They are lucky, but you may not be. I too have children and grandchildren, and I'm no longer interested in playing Russian roulette. Frankly, I'm appalled by those who make instructional videos and wear no protection, move the banjo while the lathe is turning and open CA glue bottles with their mouths. Can you assume that you will be as lucky? It certainly is your choice.
Hilel.

[jason lambert]

All I know is I am not a smoker, work a IT job so I am in a pretty clean envirnment most of the time. But after remodeling and demoing one house using little to no protection and now working on anoter another and wood work I now caught more, and feel it if I am around dust I start caughing. It is not going away which sucks and does effect me when I bike or do sports, cut the lawn anything with dust. Could just be age but I want to keep my lungs and keep woodworking and doing mechnical things I like. I understand it is alot of money that is why I asked for a opionion.

I congratulate you who ware 1/2 masks I feel they do a fine job but just not comfortable for me for hours worth of work, they wind up on the shelf and put them on when I sand but I think dust also comes when I am using a scraper and other tools so I should be waring it all the time.

Anyhow this has not been helpful to me at all, I was trying to decide which one so I don't spend a tone if not necessory, not if I need one I have already made that decision. Some of you may have lungs of steel I don't, just to much crap in my life has been sucked in. Oh yea being a fire figher for a couple of years, and working next to ground zero doesn't help but that I can't really prevent that exposiure, hobbie wood dust I can try to limit.

[Wilbur Pan]

I must be lucky, as I have a AO Safety 95090 Quicklatch PRO Dual Cartridge Respirator, and I find it very comfortable to wear. It's very easy to put on and take off, and you can really adjust the fit to your head quite nicely. I have worn it for up to 3 hours without problems. If you haven't tried this particular model, it may be worth looking into.

This may be opening up a big can of worms, but as far as the turning income vs. cost of a respirator issues, if you are generating income from your turning, and you file income taxes on that, you should be able to claim things like a respirator as a business expense and claim depreciation on it over time. That will go quite a ways towards defraying the cost of the respirator.

My wife used to do part time work as a marketing consultant from home, and we were able to do just that with some office furniture and computer equipment that she bought for that purpose. The various tax software packages out there like Quicken and H&R Block make doing this quite easy.

[James Baker SD]

I am about ready to take the plunge and get an expensive PAPR (my lungs are down to 50% and I cannot afford to lose the rest faster than necessary but don't won't to give up woodworking). I have seen several comments on the 3M Breathe Easy, but does any one have opinions of the 3M GVP system with the 501 headpiece? Thanks.

[Dan Kralemann]

Kyle,
I am afraid you have missed ...

The following was the post in another forum today (it is a violation to link other forum in SMC), I hope the author doesn't mind I copied it here:

I am nearly 77 years old and worked the majority of my life in dusty environments. I can count the times I used a mask with just my figers and toes. Don't ever remember a dust collector in any of my places of employment. I also smoked heavily from age 11 to 50. And until 1992 I was known to take a nip or two or eight or twelve of the -------,(fill in the blank). I now have lungs that are able to inhale only 22% of capacity, my blood oxygen level is 80 when it should be at least 95. I use a nebulizer a few times a day. I sleep with an oxygen hose up my nose. Get out of breathe when I walk from my garage to the road, about 60 feet. So if you don't use dust control equipment you will probably be like me if you live to be my age.

We can't eliminate all the risks we have in life. They are our choices to make. I hope we can make them wisely.

In researching respirators [battery operated or body operated (using the power of your body to pull air through cartridges)], I came across information (although I don't remember where the source of the information is) that dealt not only with the need for those that might have lung issues to use a PAPR, but also those that might have heart issues or those that are overweight to use a PAPR. Pulling air through cartridges can be stressful not only to your lungs but also to the heart; while it tries to keep enough oxygen in the blood stream. Of course, as the cartridges hold more dust because they were doing their job, it causes the body to have to work harder to get the air.

I did get a 3M Airstream respirator. I do not have a climate controlled shop, and I don't believe this benefit has been mentioned, but one of the things that I noticed while wearing the Airstream during the summer is that my face doesn't sweat. I also noticed that when the 18" x 6" (not totally roughed out bowl blank) came off the lathe and struck my face shield, that I only had a small area on my nose where the skin opened up and my nose was sore. I believe that the shield/hard hat combination saved my face from surgery.

[Dan Kralemann]

Ok I was looking at the 3M Airstream since that is what I see most people with, however I was trying to get a hold of a plug so I wouldn't have to spend $150 on there battery charger and called 3m. When speaking with the tech he sugested I go with the 6800pf power flow.
http://www.professionalequipment.com/3m-powerflow-papr-respirator-medium-3m-6800pf/respirator-masks/

he said it was more efficant and that is what most wood workers use and cheaper. I know they also have a unit where the blower is on the belt.

Since I can't go try these on what units do most turners use and why? What should I buy?


I am about ready to take the plunge and get an expensive PAPR (my lungs are down to 50% and I cannot afford to lose the rest faster than necessary but don't won't to give up woodworking). I have seen several comments on the 3M Breathe Easy, but does any one have opinions of the 3M GVP system with the 501 headpiece? Thanks.

Jason,

The 3M Airstream and the Trend are models that remove particulates only. The 3M Powerflow (the one that you have a link to in your post) and the 3M Breathe Easy are models that let you use different cartridges to eliminate particulates and organic materials. The last two can come in handy when using finishes for your projects/art. These last two, when using organic/particulate cartridges, will also eliminate mold, fungus, and other toxins that may come from the wood.

The 3M Airstream and 3M Breathe Easy are the only two that have approved hard hats as part of their protection. I made a comment in a previous post above, about my thanks for having had the shield/hard hat combination.

I have the 3M Airstream and I can see by looking at the Powerflow that it would restrict my vision when looking down. Instead of just moving my eyes as I do with the Airstream (or the Breathe Easy if I had one) to see through the full face shield, I would have to move my head down to see.

I do wish now that I would have gotten the Breathe Easy instead of the Airstream for the ability to have the organic/particulate cartridges. One reason is to do finish work with it, also because of the fungus, mold, toxin issues. The second reason is that my Airstream did not remove the smoke that escaped from the joints of the 90 degree elbow on my wood stove. The next time I went to use the helmet after the smoke incident, I keep smelling the smoke (the wood stove had no fire in it). For this reason, I had to replace the filter.

[Barbara Gill]

According to the specs. The North 7700 series face mask will give the same protection as the expensive battery operated ones. Jordan is using the 3M version which is probably just as good.
More $ does not always mean better.