Is there a slippery slope for hand saws too?

[Dean Karavite]

Hello everyone. I was using my Woodcraft $30 or so gents saw the other day and though it isn't a great saw, it was fun and it got me thinking about the "slippery saw slope." Obviously there are some really nice saws out there, but where to start? Dovetail, sure I get that. Rip and cross cut, I understand as well, but what would be an "essential" set to have? How about recommending some good makers too? I understand, you get what you pay for. I'd like the same kind of experience in a saw I get with my LN 60-1/2, LN #4 and LV low angle jack.

[Peter Evans]

Have a look at Chris Schwarz's thoughts at

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,Saws.aspx

You cannot have too many saws, have a look at

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

You really need something like:

Rip 28" 3.5, 5.5, 7 ppi
Crosscut 26" 8, 10 ppi
now you need at least three of each size and ppi for - wet wood / dry wood / good finish - with different set
Panel 02" and 22" and 24" in 8, 19, 12 ppi

and that is before you get into backsaws.

Cheers
Peter

[Robert Rozaieski]

Depends on what you want to do with them. You don't need a lot of saws, but you need the right saws for the job you want to do. Here's a rundown of what I use (I do all of my sawing by hand). YMMV.

A good crosscut filed panel saw is great for breaking down boards into rough dimensions. Something from 20-26" and 8-9 PPI is what I like. They are quick to cut and a real joy to use. Crosscutting is no where near as tiring and demanding as ripping. Tuning up a vintage saw is the way to go here. They are plentiful and cheap and not hard to clean up and sharpen. Alternatively, you can buy from someone who tunes/restores old saws, like Daryl Weir, or send a saw you have to Technoprimatives for restoration. If you absolutely must have a new saw, Wenzloff has a good reputation, Adam Cherubini makes some saws (though I'm not sure of his order taking status at the moment), LN just introduced some panel saws, and Andrew Lunn (Eccentric Toolworks) makes some beautiful saws as well.

If you want to rip by hand, I would recommend a pair of rip panel saws. However, this is not for the faint of heart. You need to be pretty dedicated to doing it by hand to rip all of your stock with a hand saw. If you want to take the plunge, I like a 5-5½ PPI rip saw, 26-28" for ripping softwood and thick hardwoods (I've ripped up to 12/4 ash with this saw). For thinner hardwoods, more typical for furniture, I like an 8 PPI rip saw, 26-28". The 8 PPI rip saw is also good for ripping thin (¼"-½") softwoods for parts like drawer sides and such. Again, vintage is the way to go here but if you have to have new, the same makers as above apply.

For joinery crosscuts, like tenon shoulders and precision sawing of parts to final length, nothing beats a 14" crosscut filed backsaw, somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-14 PPI. Vintage is good here too, though a little harder to find good backsaws than panel saws but there are still plenty out there. Lots of new makers to choose from here as well. Wenzloff, LN, Adria, Eccentric, Grammercy, and probably a host of others.

For tenon cheeks, I like a rip filed backsaw, 14"-16", somewhere in the neighborhood of 11-12 PPI. Again, vintage can be had, though 16" saws are pretty rare on the old tools market. Same makers as the crosscut joinery saw above.

Finally, if you want to hand cut dovetails, a dovetail saw is hard to beat (though you can use the rip filed tenon backsaw for this as well if money is an issue). I like something 9"-10" long, relatively thin saw plate, little to no set, in the range of 15-19 PPI. Saws with less PPI will cut faster but leave a rougher cut. More PPI means a smoother cut but slower cutting. Same makers as the other two backsaws and LV has also just introduced a dovetail saw as well.

That's about it. I do all of my sawing by hand and that basically sums up my entire set of saws. Like I said, you really don't need a lot of saws as long as the ones you do have are tuned to the work you do.

One more thing to note is that these saws will need to be sharpened frequently just like your planes and chisels if you intend to do a lot of hand sawing. It pays to learn to do it yourself so you don't have to send them out all the time. If you don't do a lot of hand sawing then it may not be a big deal to you to send them out. However, if you intend to use your saws frequently, I highly recommend learning to sharpen them yourself. It saves a lot of time and money and your saws are always ready to go.

[Steve Thomas]

It's a whole new slope.

wait till you start making them!

Bob nailed it though. x2

[Bill Houghton]

Is there a slippery slope for hand saws too?

Dean, there's a slippery slope for EVERYthing.

And not just in wood. I have a cousin who's a quilter, and she can talk about them about as long as I can babble about woodworking; maybe longer (we've never tried a faceoff). And if you ever go to a county fair and hang out listening to the folks who restore those old motors used to power agricultural machinery...

[Pat Zabrocki]

I have a saw problem, there I said it. This weekend I put together two more temporary saw tills. I will be making much cooler versions similar to Dave Anderson's. Anyway, I'm a saw-a-holic as seen below.

I'd like to make some too, but I'm rehabbing them for right now until I think I'm ready to give it a go.
cheers
Pat

[Rick Whitehead]

"Is there a slippery slope for hand saws too?"
No, not really. I can quit any time.....
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/knifmann/DSCF4088.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y159/knifmann/DSCF4087.jpg
Rick

[Pat Zabrocki]

Hey Rick,
NICE STASH
:)

[Greg Crawford]

Good makers that I know of are Atkins (better than Disston IMHO), Bishop, of course Disston, some Keen Kutters. Do you know there is a difference between a hand saw and a panel saw? If you do some research, you'll learn what you're getting, and sometimes you can find out who made saws for old hardware companies and get some good deals on well made, off-brand saws.

Some things to watch for are a nice handle, made for comfort, not cracked or loose. No missing or mis-matched bolts and nuts. Very important is to make sure the blade is straight, unless you want to get into straightening. Good breasting can be important. I just got a saw that is opposite the proper breasting, so just to get the teeth level, I'll have to almost completely file off the teeth on the heel and toe, and re-cut them.

Is there a slippery slope? Nah. Just get a lot of wood to make tills, an anvil and several hammers to straighten bent blades, lots of files, a saw vise, a Stanley 42X saw set, and the proper saws to do the jobs at hand. If you get things you need and use, that's not a slippery slope, is it? I've used every one of my saws (except the newest) and all my planes except the 46 that doesn't have cutters (they're on order).

Wouldn't a slope be when a person has 6 braces and hasn't used any of them? 2 Stanleys, 1 Yankee, 1 Craftsman, 1 Millers Falls and 1 with no name that I can find. The sweet thing is that every one has been given to me. I guess that's why I can't bring myself to sell any of them.

[James Carmichael]

Yep, it's a slick one.

I was doing quite well, but LOML keeps coming across the darn things at yard sales. Last one was a Disston panel saw.

In all honesty, when I have a need for a handsaw, I usually reach for a Tashiro Z saw. But the pre-Depression era western handsaws have such grace & elegance, I just can't resist.

One of these days, like when my son is more interested in girls than hanging with dad, I'll get them all restored and sharpened properly.

[David Keller NC]

"Rip and cross cut, I understand as well, but what would be an "essential" set to have? How about recommending some good makers too? I understand, you get what you pay for. I'd like the same kind of experience in a saw I get with my LN 60-1/2, LN #4 and LV low angle jack."

Well, "essential" depends on whether you break down rough wood with handtool means only, or you use a tablesaw and/or circular saw.

If it's the latter, then "essential" usually means a dovetail backsaw filed rip about 15 ppi, a small carcass saw filed crosscut about 12-14 ppi, and a tenon backsaw about 12-14" long filed rip about 10 ppi. If it's the former, then you can add a 5-7ppi 20-26" long panel saw filed rip, and a 9-12 ppi 18-24" panel saw filed crosscut.

There are a lot of good makers in new Western-style saws these days. The least expensive option in the dovetail saw is Lee Valley's composite saw - about $65. A step up in aesthetics, but not necessarily performance, is a LN Independence tool dovetail. For carcass and tenon saws, LN tools are probably the cheapest high-quality ones. All of these are no-wait, order it now saws. In the same price range are Adria's dovetail saw, also probably an in-stock item.

On the higher end, but still considerably cheaper than the highest end, are Wenzloff and Sons. They are superb saws, but be prepared to wait - he's got a very long order book.

On the very highest end of modern saw makers, there's Rob Cosman's new saw with a composite handle, and Andrew Lunn's works of art.

For panel saws, your only choices in high-performance new saws are Wenzloff and Lie-Nielsen. Lie Nielsen has a wait list for their new panel saws, but not as long as Mike's (Wenzloff).

In new Western saws, the ones I'd strongly suggest avoiding are Pax, Lynx, Sandvik and Crown Tools. While the steel is good, the tooth geometry is acceptable, the handles are totally unacceptable. they are squarish, machine made handles that have very sharp arrises and, in my opinion, are very uncomfortable. I sold mine immediately when Lie Nielsen offerred a better option 5-10 years ago.

For antiques, just about any British maker that's pre-1920s are superb back saws. There are a lot of makers around that time period. One way to know what you're getting is to go with a dealer like Lee Richmond at The Best Things. You'll pay more than at a yard sale or a tool meet, but you'll know what you're getting. You can sharpen them yourself with the aid of Tom Law's videos or book, or you can send them to one of several individuals that have good reputations for hand-sharpening. Note - do not send a handsaw to a local saw sharpener in your city. Generally, these businesses really know their stuff when it comes to router bits and circular saw blades, but will trash a handsaw. There may be exceptions, but it's risky.

For antique panel saws, any Simmonds, E.C. Atkins, or Disston that were made pre 1917 are superb saws, depending on their condition. Again, it's possible to find a Disston at a yard sale in good shape for a few bucks, but you need to know what you're looking for. If you want an expert to pick it for you and are willing to pay for it, Pete Tarran has selected Disstons on his website for sale that he's sharpened for you. They're not cheap, but they hold their value well.

[Bill Houghton]

One of these days, like when my son is more interested in girls than hanging with dad, I'll get them all restored and sharpened properly.

You have no idea how much you'll miss him, and how many gray hairs you'll get when, in a friend's phrase, his hormones eat his brain cells.

[Joe Close]

For panel saws, your only choices in high-performance new saws are Wenzloff and Lie-Nielsen. Lie Nielsen has a wait list for their new panel saws, but not as long as Mike's (Wenzloff).

I've seen a couple of threads that mention a long wait list for Mike's saws. I'd check on that before discounting Mike because of a "rumored" wait list. I ordered a Kenyon panel saw on 4/30. I was told to expect a 2-3 week wait. I got the shipping notice on 5/5. Maybe the custom saws are taking a long time?

By the way, I love that saw! Sometimes I saw just for the fun of it!

[David Keller NC]

"I'd check on that before discounting Mike because of a "rumored" wait list. I ordered a Kenyon panel saw on 4/30. I was told to expect a 2-3 week wait. I got the shipping notice on 5/5. Maybe the custom saws are taking a long time?"

Perhaps Mike will chime in here. All I can relate is that he stopped taking orders last fall because the backlog was overwhelming - I heard this directly from him, BTW. It's possible that he pulled your Kenyon out of the regular line-up that was going to a dealer.

It is also possible that the slowdown in the economy has trimmed orders off of the front end to let him and his sons catch up a bit. I'll send him a PM and see if he can give us an update.

[Joe Close]

Maybe I should have mentined this before. The order was through TheBestThings. They did not have any in stock and told me the 2-3 week wait. So, I did not work directly w/ Wenzloff. I just assumed since TBT was out of stock, that Wenzloff was able to send them a saw pretty quickly. Maybe a poor assumption on my part. :(

[Dean Karavite]

Wow, thanks for all the information.

Yes, there is a slope for everything. I get it now.

[James Carmichael]

You have no idea how much you'll miss him, and how many gray hairs you'll get when, in a friend's phrase, his hormones eat his brain cells.

Already been through it with 2 daughters. He's my little mid-life surprise:-)

[Eric Brown]

Medallion Tools is similar to Wenzloff & Sons but IS taking custom orders and guarantees the fit of the handle to your hand.
They will be at the Chicago show in August.
http://medalliontools.com/

Chris Schwarz is currently working on a review of carcass saws.

Eric

[Mike K Wenzloff]

I've seen a couple of threads that mention a long wait list for Mike's saws. I'd check on that before discounting Mike because of a "rumored" wait list. I ordered a Kenyon panel saw on 4/30. I was told to expect a 2-3 week wait. I got the shipping notice on 5/5. Maybe the custom saws are taking a long time?

By the way, I love that saw! Sometimes I saw just for the fun of it!
Hi Joe--and everyone...

I am trying to type this without my glasses--they were a causualty at the shop yesterday.

The waiting list is being knocked back. But it is there. We did work on an order for TBT that was, well, old. So Lee got a bunch of stock. Basically, both LV and TBT run out of stock because we have favored working on the large direct order backlog. As our capacity has grown, we were able to clear up some of TBT's back log as well move forward on the direct list.

We have had some personal tragedies in the extended family this year. My father's health has failed, my great aunt recently passed away and another of the old guard before that. This has slowed down my participation in the business since late January. And I am the one doing the "special" project direct orders (like the early Kenyon saws), so those are even more behind.

Last August I did shut off adding to the list. There was a large spike in July for some reason. Once the back log is cleared, how we proceed will change a little, along with what will be new tool offerings. All to be explained whenever the new web site gets finished.

I am now able to devote most of my time to the shop again, so we are getting back to the normal madness.

Squinting is the pits. I'll check back on the thread tonight--with my other pair of glasses I forgot to bring home...

Take care, Mike

[Rob Luter]

Note - do not send a handsaw to a local saw sharpener in your city. Generally, these businesses really know their stuff when it comes to router bits and circular saw blades, but will trash a handsaw. There may be exceptions, but it's risky.

I may be the exception here, but I've had pretty good luck with three different shops in my area. Their bread and butter is circular saws and router bits as you suggest, but they were investigated in advance and found to have some experience in hand saw sharpening and even re-toothing. I wouldn't just send anything blind and hope for the best.

Out of 7 or 8 saws sharpened, I only had one that was a problem, a 26" Disston miter saw that had the rake set a bit too aggressive. It was a bitch to push, but a minor adjustment has it cutting like a razor now with very little effort.

The prevailing rate around here is between $4 and $5 depending on the size of the saw. More if it needs a retooth. This may cost more in your neck of the woods but it's worth checking out.

[Ray Gardiner]

Is there a slippery slope for saws? ... you're kidding right, more like a cliff with no way back once the bug bites..

Have a read of alf's (Alice Frampton) words on the subject

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=127911#127911

Regards
Ray

[Steve Hamlin]

Yup. Big, steep, well waxed slope. 15 DT saws to hand, with Wenzloff, Paik and Lunn in the pipeline and always on the lookout for oldies that catch my eye.

Have managed to keep other back saw numbers in check (even rationalised a while back) - just three cross cut (between 8" and 26"), 3 larger rips (between 12" and 19") and a few specialised saws (fret slotting saw, graded nut saws, scarf saw, couple of beading/razor saws, etc)

For when I'm going around the bend, I do have two table saws, compass saw, keyhole saw, pad saw and assorted framed saws.

Haven't looked over the edge of the hand and panel saw precipice yet, with only around eight rip, hand and panel saws.

So all told, still just around fifty I think.