Rigid Saw with Granite Top

[Lewis Ehrhardt]

I saw a Ridgid saw today in HD. It had the granite top. The miter slot had chipped out. Not sure this is a viable option for a saw's top.

[Matt Armstrong]

Wow, where have I been? Ridgid makes granite-surfaced table saws and sells them at home depot? Pretty cool, I guess

[Chris Harry]

I saw a Ridgid saw today in HD. It had the granite top. The miter slot had chipped out. Not sure this is a viable option for a saw's top.

A lot of the demo saws have this issue. People just not taking care of it.

Steel City has sold their granite saw for a while, and its pretty popular. The Ridgid is a close copy of the same saw. I have the Ridgid version and like it.......just to be extra cautious I removed the T-adapter from my miter gauge to make sure it doesnt snap off the miter slot.

Some people have replaced the T-adapters with round plastic washers, so the gauge stays in the slot but the washer should break before the granite does if they happen to lift up on the gauge.

[Myk Rian]

Exactly the reason I won't buy a granite surface tool. Once it's chipped, that's it.

[Jim Rimmer]

I've been looking for a new TS and thought the Ridgid might be the way to go. However, I'm thinking now that a a few $$$ more and get the Grizzly 0478.

[John Thompson]

Steel City has not had one person who purchased their granite top have the miter slot break. They have replaced 6 sitting on showroom floors. Customers are curious as to how much pressure it can take before it breaks. Customers that have purchased them seem to not be so curious and use common sense since it is theirs.

Steel City used a metal tab on the end of the original miter gauges.. they replaced it with a plastic one that eliminates the problem. Any that have the old metal washer on an early saw can call and get a plastic replacement as most used common sense an removed the metal tab.

I have a granite fence on my jointer which has been banged pretty good. No chips but if I did get one.. I will fill it with epoxy.. smooth after dry and move on as the jointer had already seen over 20,000 linear feet in 2 1/2 years and that's just the tip of the iceberg as too what I intend to run across it.

Sarge..

[Bill Huber]

Exactly the reason I won't buy a granite surface tool. Once it's chipped, that's it.

I am thinking the same thing.


I've been looking for a new TS and thought the Ridgid might be the way to go. However, I'm thinking now that a a few $$$ more and get the Grizzly 0478.

When they first came out I thought it just maybe a really neat thing but the more I here I am just not sure.

I have seen some marks on cast iron saws in stores but I have never seen one that had chips in it. What will these saws look like after 20 years or more. My first saw was 54 years old and the top was just as good as the day it was new.

I guess time will tell.

[Peter Quinn]

A Rigid with a granite top? You sure some monkey didn't just abandon a piece of countertop from the kitchen department on top of a TS?:D Seriously though, I've never figured granite would be strong enough or in any case malleable enough for that T slot most miter gauges have. Thats some pretty thin stone at that point, very brittle I would think. I think the tool department of the Borg is the perfect place to test designs for durability given the abuse such products will face from the maelstrom of tire kickers that walk through.

What is it Frank Sinatra said, "If you can make it there, you'll make it any where...."?:D

[Bob Genovesi]

Exactly the reason I won't buy a granite surface tool. Once it's chipped, that's it.

Agreed!

I may be old fashioned but there's no way that a granite top with outlast a precision cast iron top. I'd like to compare saws after 20 years of use.....

[Myk Rian]

Agreed!

I may be old fashioned but there's no way that a granite top with outlast a precision cast iron top. I'd like to compare saws after 20 years of use.....
I did precision tool repair for 20+ years. The granite surface plates I used (black and pink) had to be checked and ground every year. That was with light usage and not pushing rough objects around on them.

[John Shuk]

I saw a Ridgid saw today in HD. It had the granite top. The miter slot had chipped out. Not sure this is a viable option for a saw's top.

I saw the same thing. I'd have pass on that. Too bad cause Rigid makes nice tools.

[Paul Ryan]

Agreed!

I may be old fashioned but there's no way that a granite top with outlast a precision cast iron top. I'd like to compare saws after 20 years of use.....


I think a granite top will probably outlast a cast top by...................... OH lets say a couple million years or more. The grainte has been aged just a little longer than the cast and is equally strong, plus is totally maintenace free, and completly flat. Having own a granite top saw, I can say they are really nice and better than any cast topped saw I have used.

I have never heard an owner of a granite machine complain about it. It is just the none believers that don't own one complaining.

[Myk Rian]

I think a granite top will probably outlast a cast top by...................... OH lets say a couple million years or more. The grainte has been aged just a little longer than the cast and is equally strong, plus is totally maintenace free, and completly flat. Having own a granite top saw, I can say they are really nice and better than any cast topped saw I have used.

I have never heard an owner of a granite machine complain about it. It is just the none believers that don't own one complaining.
You didn't read my last post, I take it.

[John Thompson]

I did precision tool repair for 20+ years. The granite surface plates I used (black and pink) had to be checked and ground every year. That was with light usage and not pushing rough objects around on them.

With all due respect Myk.. I installed a polished black granite fence on my jointer 2 1/2 years ago. It was ground to about .001 when I installed it. You got my curiousity up and I just went and checked it. If what you say is true.. why is it still .001 after about 20,000 linear feet of wood stock has riden it over that time? I cannot even detect a scratch... so far.

Everyone... As far as my cast iron TS top... I have had it for 9 months and have some light scratches from metal tenon jigs being run across the top and two pits where the spring loaded anti-kick-back palls dropped down in the same spot before I took them off just for that reason. I have a neighbor that builds outside furninture for a living. His Uni-saw's cast iron top stress cracked after owning it for 8 years. Why is that when we seem to tout cast iron as in-destructible. He applied J B Weld and smoothed it out as the top was out of warranty and it works fine.

Today I had a few drops of prespiration drop from my forehead to my saw top as the temps were in the 80's here in Georgia and I didn't catch them at the time. Two hours latter I had to use a rust eraser and get it off before applying more wax in that area. I just waxed it about 4 days ago.

Perhaps all of us should have faith that cast iron is in-destructable and go do a test on our tops. Pull your miter gauge back so the metal tip is about 1"-2" from the front of the table and press down hard to see what happens. Before you do though.. I suggest you do a Google on cast iron and read it throughly.

I worked around Muscle Car Restoration for over 30 years. Do you suppose their is a reason cast iron was used on blocks but steel used on crank-shafts and for cylinder liners inside a cast iron block. Have you seen any cast iron engine valves that are subjected to constant friction lately?

Most of my machines are cast iron but I don't personally see cast iron as being in-destructable like Superman and only Krypto-nite being the solvent. Now... am I the only one that has gotten cast iron that is not the holy grail or just the only one that will admit it is not perfect to avoid an argument that will most likely pursue.

Nobody with the granite tops here has made any negative remarks toward the granite. Why is that? Not one pertinent question has been asked as how thick is the top.. does it stand alone or is it re-enforced in any way. I assume you know that.. or do you? Have the actual owners had any problems with the miter slots... etc. etc..?

That's my final .02 as I am done with this thread...


Sarge..

[Nick Abbott]

Steel City has not had one person who purchased their granite top have the miter slot break.

Blanket statements such as this are always false.

Here's a post quote from another forum:

"I happened to speak to a Steel City rep the other day and he told me that the chipping in the miter slots was being corrected by a plastic insert inside the "T" slot.They've had several owners crack the slot by tipping the miter gauge up, then pushing down on it. Don't know why anyone would do that but??????? Anyway, the rep assured me that the granite tops, if chipped, could easily be repaired ,and there's a ten year warranty on the granite, so not to worry."

One from SMC:

"I went to the Canadian Workshop Show in Toronto at the beginning of the month and to tell you the truth I'm not impressed with granite tops on any tool, The Steel City display had one of their units and the mitre slot was all chipped at the the front edge, while thay may be true and don't rust, if you drop something on it, the top is not as forgiving as cast iron.
I'm not sold on them!"





I have never heard an owner of a granite machine complain about it. It is just the none believers that don't own one complaining.

I have heard several complaints from granite topped tool owners. IMO the Rigid R4511 granite topped table saw looks like a pretty nice hybrid saw and it has some nice features for the money. I like Rigid tools but I wouldn't purchase the R4511 because to many folks have had issues with the granite top.

There is a bunch of threads here at the http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=25 concerning the R4511. Some folks like them, some don't, some are sorry they purchased one, some are pleased with their purchase.

[Bob Genovesi]

I think a granite top will probably outlast a cast top by...................... OH lets say a couple million years or more. The grainte has been aged just a little longer than the cast and is equally strong, plus is totally maintenace free, and completly flat. Having own a granite top saw, I can say they are really nice and better than any cast topped saw I have used.

I have never heard an owner of a granite machine complain about it. It is just the none believers that don't own one complaining.

Last is a subjective term but I think what we're trying to quantify is the likelihood of any damage due to mishaps or use over time.

Like another gentleman here I've been in the precision tool and die business for over 35 years. Granite surface plates are used as a reference surface for checking precision pieces using a wide variety of indicators down to 0.00005.

Granite surface plates feel hard to the touch but trust me, they do wear. sliding pieces across them will wear the surface thus the reason they need to be resurfaced annually. Just about every surface plate I've ever seen, except for new, was chipped along the edge and some even a corner missing. Another issue you'll discover is they do scratch very easily.

I've seen two cabinet saws with granite tops on display right next to comparable units with a traditional cast iron tops, both had chips on the outside edge and one even had a huge chunk missing from the miter slot.

Both materials have advantages and disadvantages. Granite will not rust which is huge for lots of folks but it does stain and you need to be careful what liquids com in contact with it as granite is porous.

In my opinion, in the long run you'll find that a cast iron top will wear better and suffer less damage over the course of time than the new granite tops.

[Phil Thien]

I did precision tool repair for 20+ years. The granite surface plates I used (black and pink) had to be checked and ground every year. That was with light usage and not pushing rough objects around on them.

I know the ones I've seen were routinely checked by whatever metrology firm is responsible for the inspection gear. If they aren't certified they are relatively worthless.

But I had no idea those things were getting reground every year. I'm surprised my local metrologist firms can even surface the larger ones I see to .00005". They don't seem like their shop has that kind of gear. Do they have to send them back to the manufacturer?

[Phil Thien]

Granite surface plates feel hard to the touch but trust me, they do wear. sliding pieces across them will wear the surface thus the reason they need to be resurfaced annually.

Do they do this on-site or what? How does a metrology outfit grind a larger plate to .00005 or better? Does it have to go back to the manufacturer?

[Loren Hedahl]

If I were in the market for a new table saw, I would seriously consider one with a granite top.

In my normal use of a table saw I never use a miter gage extended out over the table. Any cutting of something that size would either be done on a sled or with a circular saw. So I see the chip-out of the miter slot complaint as a non-issue.

The greatest issue for me is I have learned to love those magnetic feather board accessories. They are so quick and handy that this is more likely to be a deal-breaker for me! On my little bench-top DeWalt 745 I have even attached a piece of light weight steel angle to sheath the left side of the fence to allow me to use my mag stuff. If I could do the same with the aluminum top, I would.

Now if they would come out with a magnetic granite . . . . .

[Chris Harry]

If I were in the market for a new table saw, I would seriously consider one with a granite top.

In my normal use of a table saw I never use a miter gage extended out over the table. Any cutting of something that size would either be done on a sled or with a circular saw. So I see the chip-out of the miter slot complaint as a non-issue.

The greatest issue for me is I have learned to love those magnetic feather board accessories. They are so quick and handy that this is more likely to be a deal-breaker for me! On my little bench-top DeWalt 745 I have even attached a piece of light weight steel angle to sheath the left side of the fence to allow me to use my mag stuff. If I could do the same with the aluminum top, I would.

Now if they would come out with a magnetic granite . . . . .

THAT is actually what Im missing the most right now: I cant easily attach my Incra LS super system to the router extension on my granite saw. If I kept my TS3660 with cast iron top, all I would need are 2 MagJigs.

OTOH, the granite topped saw has many improvements over the cast iron 3660. And, I actually didnt WANT the granite top, but with the power tool deal HD was running I couldnt pass up the really inexpensive upgrade.

[Loren Hedahl]

THAT is actually what Im missing the most right now: I cant easily attach my Incra LS super system to the router extension on my granite saw. If I kept my TS3660 with cast iron top, all I would need are 2 MagJigs.

OTOH, the granite topped saw has many improvements over the cast iron 3660. And, I actually didnt WANT the granite top, but with the power tool deal HD was running I couldnt pass up the really inexpensive upgrade.

What's the power tool HD is running?

Did I miss it?

[Paul Ryan]

As a previous owner of a grainte saw, I can safely say that the top will not be damaged unless you do something stuipd. I have not heard of anyone complaining about the top. I checked through the thread posted, what I did get out of that is. The few of those that have damaged their tools are stupid. They weren't being careful. If I did that to my cast top I would have problems too. The smart thing to do it take off the washer on the miter bar. I took it off my granit saw, and I took it off my cast saw. But if you use the washer on the saw can be used with out worry if you use your head.

[John Thompson]

The source of my blanket statement on how many tops have been replaced was Jim Box who was the head of technical department when I asked the question. He went through warranty claims and called me back the nest day. Your rep (who is a salesman basically) gave the info you stated. What was his name and what was the source of his infomation? Or was he just making a blanket statement which is obvisously always false.

Granite surface plates do wear and manufacturers recommend you check them 1-2 years as they become useless for a machinist purpose which is to establish 0 flat. But we didn't mention that .00010 is relevant to machinist but totally irrelevant to WW'ers where wood after being severed and moisture exposed will move more than that overnight. Nothing was mentioned about grit... grime.. grease will increase wear by ten thousands on a plate. Every plate not in use should be covered. Every plate should be wiped clean after use but... how many machine shops really do that? The answer will never be known unless you survey each and every one of them.

If we are going to compare.. why not mention cast iron processing which is lenghty and has to be fully monitored. And even when monitored.. there is no guarantee that the carbon will evenly distribute throughout the batch of CI. And if it doesn't ... it can cause stress which may show it's head down the road as my neighbor Bill found out. In comparison black granite has been stress relieved for 5 million years. I won't get into differences of hardness of granite which is relievant to machine tops. And certainly not grades for those that I have heard compare machines tops to thinner kitchen counter tops. Apples and oranges without the grade and source.

And please don't mention about the standard bearing Uni-saw's before the recent up-grade with a multi component cast iron trunnion. The one that has the weak link in the left rear. The one that if dropped in shipment has a tendency to break on the crate and the reason Delta sold Factory Re-conditioned Uni-saw's by the tractor trailer load to larger dealers. My source for that info is Greg at Redmond and Son Machinery here in Atlanta which has been installing machines for many years to commeercial shops.. schools.. etc. and last by not least two Delta reps I was introduced to at IWF in Atlanta last August as we discussed it.

I'm going down to my shop where I crank out a large carcass about every two months average (the source for verification is Sawmill Creek WW Projects if you won't to look to find out if that is a blanket statement) and run some wood across both my cast iron tops and black granite jointer fence. The same fence that came ground to around .001 and I expect to be no more than .002 in 20 years which I consider an irrelevant issue.

BTW... Popular WW Mag recieved a granite top over 2 years ago that came with a chipped corner. They told SC not to send another as it was irrelevant to Woodworkign and they are Woodworkers. I do believe they mentioned that in their favorable review of the saw.

I really don't care what type top someone purchases but.. I really hate to see one sided debates so I will present the other side of the coin in lieu of I have used Crest tooth-paste for 50 years and the other brands are not as good. Did I mention I was happy with Crest and have not actually looked into or tried the other brands? I must have miissed that..

Sarge..

[Chris Harry]

What's the power tool HD is running?

Did I miss it?

Yeah its over now (unfortunately), but it was the "Ultimate Power Tool Sale" theyve been running for a few years now.

Tiered discount, spend up to 599 get 75 off, 600-99 get 150 off, etc.

The 4511 was 599, spend 1.00 more (an SURPRISE! pneumatic fasteners count, so I spent 3 bux on a pack of nails) to put you past 600 and you get the items for 602-150. Basically the saw cost me 450+tax.

Considering my 3660 was 399+tax, this was a pretty good upgrade.

As far as cast iron vs granite, since cast iron is brittle, Ive read of a few people that have snapped the miter slots in their CI tops....so its not necessarily unique to granite (although Im sure it might be at least a little easier to do it to a granite top)

[Bob Genovesi]

Do they do this on-site or what? How does a metrology outfit grind a larger plate to .00005 or better? Does it have to go back to the manufacturer?

Believe it or not, granite surface plates are lapped in by hand. The technician uses a special flat plate and compound for this purpose. Today the surface flatness is checked using lasers.

I'm sure there are places that surface plates can be sent but where I work mostly are resurfaced in house.

I mentioned annually but unless the plate sees heavy use probably every 2 years should be sufficient.

[Bob Genovesi]

Do they do this on-site or what? How does a metrology outfit grind a larger plate to .00005 or better? Does it have to go back to the manufacturer?

Here's just one of the companies that perform this service.

http://www.standridgegranite.com/calibration.htm

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Excuse the ignorance on my part, but what is the advantage of granite over cast iron other than the obvious of no rust? I can't see a benefit other than maybe the "wow that is a pretty saw". I live in the rust capital of the world, and with reasonable care, rust should not be a problem. So, with reasonable care, either should last more than my lifetime, I should be able to give my saw to my sons. I have to say, I would think that a CI top will not be true to .00005 just the same as granite, so all that accuracy stuff is out the window. As long as it's within .001 its fine.

And I do like my magnetic featherboard.

[Chris Harry]

Rust, added weight (dampens vibrations better), *should* be flatter but that is subjective.

If Ridgid made two versions of the 4511, I would buy the cast iron version. Unfortunately they dont (Steel City does, but pretty hard to get the Steel City version for 450.00!!). The other benefits of the 4511 were what got me (better dust collection, much heavier duty trunion setup, riving knife)

[Kerry Verne]

Owning a Steel City cabinet saw with a granite top, the biggest drawback I've found is that my magnetic featherboard is now a paperweight.

Now, I don't use it on a daily basis, but I don't baby it either. I bought it last October and it's working perfectly. The top is perfect, and I've little fear of leaving the garage door open during a summer shower these days. I even leave my water bottle on the top from time to time. It's dead flat, stays dead flat, and as my first cabinet saw is very easy to adjust alignment on. The granite also drags less on wood and I've never felt a need to wax it.

As far as chips, the entry point for the miter slot is a little dinged up. It's straight cut to the front, and the front edge is beveled down, which leaves a sharp edge that takes abuse. There's probably something they can do to round off those corners in production, but nothing I couldn't accomplish with five minutes and a file. I also have a tiny chip out of the top of the miter slot, but that was due to the miter gauge being bent somehow during shipping or manufacturing (SC quickly sent another for free.) SC customer service suggested JB weld to clean things up, but I've ignored it so far. I removed the locking disc from the front tip of my miter gauge, so that I need not feed it in point first but instead lay it in the slot. (I've done this for every miter gauge I've ever owned.) The stock gauge was retasked for my router table.

As for significant chipping, my original saw was somehow abused in shipping and SC had to ship me another. They're sent in a welded steel cage to prevent tipping and damage, though some drunk dockhand ran mine into a pillar or tipped it over and tore up the front corner. Again, not the fault of SC, but the freight company. As you can see from the pic, the damage was hard to detect from the outside. I'll never accept anything with a tripped ShockWatch tag again though.

Above all, Steel City customer support has been top notch.

[Chris Harry]

FWIW the Ridgid granite saw comes in a steel frame very similar to that pic.

Pretty funny when the packaging of your saw weighs 50 lbs or so!

[Nick Abbott]

If Ridgid made two versions of the 4511, I would buy the cast iron version.

Good point!!

[Peter Quinn]

Wow, this conversation has gotten strange. "Hey guys, which material is way harder than wood, cast iron or granite? Well cast iron is harder than wood by far, but granite is WAY harder than wood! So is the cast iron going to wear out in a life time in any appreciable way by passing wood over it? No, not really, not likely. That's one of the reasons why they use it. One of the jointers at work is a forty year old powermatic that has seen hundreds of thousands of board feet in its lifetime. They used to use it to straight edge flooring lumber with a power feeder for years before they got a straight line saw. And guess what, IT STILL WORKS GREAT, ITS STILL FLAT, AND NO GROOVES OR WEAR MARKS. But is the granite going to wear appreciably by passing wood over it? Well no, not likely. So remind me, what difference does it make?

Back to the Achilles heal of granite, the miter slot t groove. Ever laid granite tile? It has great wear resistance, incredible impact resistance, but you had better mortar it down to a solid substrate, because if it flexes, my two year old on his red flyer wagon can snap off an unsupported edge. I'm sure they use a higher grade of granite for table tops, but do you expect me to believe that stone milled as thin as it is at that point is going to be durable regardless of its grade? I usually pull those washers off the miter gauges anyway, but I have one tenoning jig whose washer won't come off easily and I always try lifting it straight off try as I may to remember its there. Am I stupid? Quite so. And my feather boards are held down by those rousseau nut/washer things that ride in the T slot, I crank the BLEEP BLEEPING BLEEP out of them to tighten them, and my iron top has yet to crack, chip or warp. Guess I would have to make a new plan with a granite top? So, no t slot washers for feather boards, no mag jigs, what's left exactly?

[Chris Harry]

As far as 'whats left', I know Incra makes some "miter sliders" that can be used to hold something stationary via the miter slot.

BUT Im not sure exactly how they work.........do they expand out the length of the miter slot? or are there just multiple washers like on a normal sliding miter bar. I suppose if they expand out the length of the miter, it *might* be a little safer for a granite top saw.

I need to mount my LS positioner to my router extension, and Incras suggestion is to just clamp a board down to the saw table and mount the LS to that board. While it might not be the most elegant solution, it should suffice.

[Paul Ryan]

I used the feather boards with the expandable holder in them on my granite saw and never had any problems. I wasn't too worried about that because the pressure was to the sides of the grove not pulling up. I believe that the grainte top would be the cats hind end, if the miter slots were machined and a stainless miter slot was installed in them. If that were the case. I believe the granite would be a far superior tool to the cast iron. But since they are not you just have to be carefuly when using a miter tool with a washer. Just like you have to be careful that your brother in law doesn't leave his beer can on your cast iron table saw over night.

[Ryan Sparreboom]

I just bought a SC granite top saw. Just finished assembling it and uing it for the first time last night.
So far I absolutely love it.
I can't see the miter slot being a problem, but I'm careful with my tools and don't abuse them. If your less careful I can see your concern about the granite breaking at that point. But don't think for a minute that your cast iron is without faults.

Granite top tools are an excellent product and a great option. It has it's benefits over CI, but CI has a few over granite (magnetism for one). Granite tools are not for everyone, if it ain't for you, don't buy one. But stop trying to make up bogus excuses to justify why.

I also bought the new SC bandsaw with the granite table and lower wheel. The machine is amazingly smooth and I'll bet that lower wheel is heavier and truer than any CI or aluminum wheel.

Ryan

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I find it hard to believe that granite could be harder than cast iron. My cabinet saw top probably weighs 200 pounds. I've been hurting since I lifted it onto the truck.

I'd like a granite top though.... Pretty..... And carefree. I can put my beer on it and not worry. JUST KIDDING!!!! I do not drink and play with power tools. Coke on the granite top....

[Bob Genovesi]

I just bought a SC granite top saw. Just finished assembling it and uing it for the first time last night.
So far I absolutely love it.
I can't see the miter slot being a problem, but I'm careful with my tools and don't abuse them. If your less careful I can see your concern about the granite breaking at that point. But don't think for a minute that your cast iron is without faults.
Ryan

I think a granite top is a nice option for some folks. Both cast iron and granite have their pro's and con's and each will have their own following. My personal opinion is that granite is harder than its cast iron counterpart but it also more brittle which makes it susceptible to some of the damage mentioned throughout this thread.


Granite top tools are an excellent product and a great option. It has it's benefits over CI, but CI has a few over granite (magnetism for one). Granite tools are not for everyone, if it ain't for you, don't buy one. But stop trying to make up bogus excuses to justify why.
Ryan

I don't this anyone is trying to make up excuses to avoid buying a tool with a granite top; from what I've read they're merely pointing out some valid observations and cautions.


I also bought the new SC bandsaw with the granite table and lower wheel. The machine is amazingly smooth and I'll bet that lower wheel is heavier and truer than any CI or aluminum wheel.
Ryan

Granite tops are certainly prettier than its cast iron counterpart but I'd really like to know the real reason some of the manufactures decided to switch; was it the WOW factor?

Granite seems to be the latest craze for kitchens and bathrooms and it isn't necessary a bad choice in materials at all. Could it possible be less expensive from a manufactures point of view, quite possibly, but they're not passing it along to the consumer.

Look at it another way; if it weren't for this option we would have nothing to talk about. ;)

Bottom line; each to his own.

[Paul Ryan]

I would believe that cost has a lot to do with it. It has to cheaper to maufacture than cast. All they have to do is find a good piece and cut it. It has been aged by mother earth so that isn't and option. There arn't any material costs for SC because they own the pit that the granite comes from. And I think that it does have some wow factor that they were counting on. But it does have its advantages, as does cast iron. Personally I find my cast iron top nicer looking than the granite I had. The granite that I have seen for the table saws isn't choosen for its looks, like they do for kitchens. The tops I have seen and the one I had, they had almost like blemishes in them, where the colors didn't seem right, it hard to explain. A piece of granite has a certian pattern or style, these tops are just granite nothing really asthetically pleasing about them. I would love their band saw with the granite table and lower wheel. I bought a grizzly over the SC band saw due to cost, and the saw with the grainte lower wheel wasn't available when I bought mine. Maybe someday I will change but not in the near future.

[John Thompson]

I find it hard to believe that granite could be harder than cast iron. My cabinet saw top probably weighs 200 pounds. I've been hurting since I lifted it onto the truck.

I'd like a granite top though.... Pretty..... And carefree. I can put my beer on it and not worry. JUST KIDDING!!!! I do not drink and play with power tools. Coke on the granite top....

Do a Google search on cast iron, Kyle. You will discover cast iron is not steel by a wide margin. Drill a hole in cast iron and you have a very simple task done with any HSS bit. Then drill a hole in granite... you won't unless you have a diamond tipped bit.

Regards...

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

Back to the Achilles heal of granite, the miter slot t groove. Ever laid granite tile? It has great wear resistance, incredible impact resistance, but you had better mortar it down to a solid substrate, because if it flexes, my two year old on his red flyer wagon can snap off an unsupported edge.

The granite tops are 1 1/2" thick Peter. They are re-enforced with Stainless Steel rods expoxied into them which I have already mentioned. The black granite is load bearing granite. Pink Crystal granite was mentioned earlier in a post about wear on machinist plates. Pink crystal is actually smoother than black granite because of the crystal but... pink cyrstal granite is not a load bearing granite.

Hope that helps...

Sarge..

[John Thompson]

Granite tops are certainly prettier than its cast iron counterpart but I'd really like to know the real reason some of the manufactures decided to switch; was it the WOW factor?

Granite seems to be the latest craze for kitchens and bathrooms and it isn't necessary a bad choice in materials at all. Could it possible be less expensive from a manufactures point of view, quite possibly, but they're not passing it along to the consumer.

Look at it another way; if it weren't for this option we would have nothing to talk about. ;)

Bottom line; each to his own.[/QUOTE]

Bob.. granite is very expensive really. Go price some at a granite counter-top supplier. The last I priced was around $50 a square foot for standard couner top mill. The price of the granite in China was very cheap when the price of cast iron rose drastically.

Some guys were sitting around a table in China drinking beer talking about the rise in cost of cast iron. One of them mentioned we should just go to granite as their is a high grade quarry about 9 miles from our WW factory. They all laughed and joked about it with the exception of one Chinese engineer who made a trip to the Quarry mentioned the next day. The rest is basically history to a degree.

But... if you have been watching markets on granite the Chinese may very well be raising their prices on granite to closer match the other world competitors. So... the price was cheap but maybe not tomorrow. The majority of Chinese have raised labor rates I was told at IWF last fall by a company that had sunk millions into a factory there. The Chinese raised their labor rate on them and the company said NO. They left millions sitting in a plant they were building and went back to the U.S... wrote off what they could and began construction on a new plant here at home.

So.. "what is today" is not necessarily going to be "what is tomorrow" as the world changes almost on a daily basis.

So.. now you know why a company decided to try granite in lieu of a long cast iron process that is expensive and with no guarantee of perfect results even under very close scrutiny.

And since I was accused of making a blanket statement earlier.. my source of info is Scott Box who was the president of Steel City at the time I was told and the Chinese owner of the plant Steel City manufactures in while eating B-B-Q ribs and drinking beer last fall during the IWF Show in Atlanta.

Hope that helps...

Sarge..

[Bob Genovesi]

Bob.. granite is very expensive really. Go price some at a granite counter-top supplier. The last I priced was around $50 a square foot for standard couner top mill. The price of the granite in China was very cheap when the price of cast iron rose drastically.

Some guys were sitting around a table in China drinking beer talking about the rise in cost of cast iron. One of them mentioned we should just go to granite as their is a high grade quarry about 9 miles from our WW factory. They all laughed and joked about it with the exception of one Chinese engineer who made a trip to the Quarry mentioned the next day. The rest is basically history to a degree.

But... if you have been watching markets on granite the Chinese may very well be raising their prices on granite to closer match the other world competitors. So... the price was cheap but maybe not tomorrow. The majority of Chinese have raised labor rates I was told at IWF last fall by a company that had sunk millions into a factory there. The Chinese raised their labor rate on them and the company said NO. They left millions sitting in a plant they were building and went back to the U.S... wrote off what they could and began construction on a new plant here at home.

So.. "what is today" is not necessarily going to be "what is tomorrow" as the world changes almost on a daily basis.

So.. now you know why a company decided to try granite in lieu of a long cast iron process that is expensive and with no guarantee of perfect results even under very close scrutiny.

And since I was accused of making a blanket statement earlier.. my source of info is Scott Box who was the president of Steel City at the time I was told and the Chinese owner of the plant Steel City manufactures in while eating B-B-Q ribs and drinking beer last fall during the IWF Show in Atlanta.

Hope that helps...

Sarge..

Sarge,

Good explanation!

I knew there had to be more to it then someone saying; "let's make the tops out of granite now".

[Chip Lindley]

06-07-2009, 10:30 PM !!
That's my final .02 as I am done with this thread...
Sarge..

...And that was THREE posts ago! LOL

John?? Own lots of stock in a Granite Quarry...or Steel City? Or Ridgid????

FWIW, Humanity moved from the *Stone Age,* through the *Bronze Age,* and into the *Iron Age*, thousands of years ago!

[John Thompson]

...And that was THREE posts ago! LOL

John?? Own lots of stock in a Granite Quarry...or Steel City? Or Ridgid????

FWIW, Humanity moved from the *Stone Age,* through the *Bronze Age,* and into the *Iron Age*, thousands of years ago!

Sorry to disrupt the wonderful experiece you probably have posting on the internet with the additional post but... as I stated I don't care to see a topic viewed from the Tilt position. So.. who do I pay the penalty fee too for doing so?

I'm not sure what relevance the questions you ask about what stock I may own have to do do with the subject Chip? I assume none and you're only making a valiant attempt to become the internet police without an official badge.

Even though none of your business personally which you need to be personally clear about.. I'm going to answer them to show what a really nice guy I am after you make a BS post as you just did.

No stock in a granite quarry but I live about 13 miles from one..

No stock in Steel City but I do have 2 free T shirts from the company..

No stock in Ridgid and I wouldn't personally buy the saw as not enough HP and I don't care for the fence.

There ya go.. now you can run along and play internet soldier with someone else as the internet is loaded with keyboard warriors as youself that just love to waste peoples time.

Have fun and ya have a good day, son..

Sarge..

[Nick Abbott]

I ran a test last night with my cast iron topped table saw. I opened a can of beer and left it on the table saw all night. This morning when I arrived at the shop the only issue I had was the beer was a little flat. It looks like my cast iron topped saw passed the brother-in-law test.

[Chip Lindley]

Wheww! John, lighten up POP! Was only my valiant attempt at a bit of humor, on a *FORD/CHEVY* subject that will never be settled in any forum. IMO, this granite vs. cast iron thingie is 2nd only to the voracious threads on dedicated router tables (or not) in its polarization of opinion-holders!

It's a wonderful thing I can spend my hard-earned Bucks as I please, on any machine I please. Nobody is holding a gun to my head forcing me to buy anything granite! But after this experience, rather than being laid under a traditional granite headstone, I may just order one in Cast Iron! LOL

Contrary to some posters here, when I say I'm Done, I'm truly Done! Adios, Granite vs. CI thread! LOL

[John Thompson]

Wheww! John, lighten up POP! Was only my valiant attempt at a bit of humor, on a *FORD/CHEVY* subject that will never be settled in any forum. IMO, this granite vs. cast iron thingie is 2nd only to the voracious threads on dedicated router tables (or not) in its polarization of opinion-holders!

It's a wonderful thing I can spend my hard-earned Bucks as I please, on any machine I please. Nobody is holding a gun to my head forcing me to buy anything granite! But after this experience, rather than being laid under a traditional granite headstone, I may just order one in Cast Iron! LOL

Contrary to some posters here, when I say I'm Done, I'm truly Done! Adios, Granite vs. CI thread! LOL

If I responded from a mis-conception of what you intended in your post Chip.. you have my apology. I was simply responding to the tone of the wording with no smiley faces or grins to tip off you attempting humor. Face to face.. tone is not as relevant as you can read a person's intent by their facial expression. On the internet that creates a problem as you cannot see them.

So.. if humor was your intent.. sorry.. If in truth not, how I responded stands as is.

Sarge..

[Nick Abbott]

And since I was accused of making a blanket statement earlier.. my source of info is Scott Box who was the president of Steel City at the time I was told and the Chinese owner of the plant Steel City manufactures in while eating B-B-Q ribs and drinking beer last fall during the IWF Show in Atlanta.

Hope that helps...

Sarge..

Well John if true then they flat out lied to you.

[John Thompson]

Well John if true then they flat out lied to you.

Yes..it is true that is what I was told. Now.. if they flat out lied to me you perhaps could tell my what the truth is and your source as your post indicates you know.

Sarge..

[Ryan Sparreboom]

I think a granite top is a nice option for some folks. Both cast iron and granite have their pro's and con's and each will have their own following. My personal opinion is that granite is harder than its cast iron counterpart but it also more brittle which makes it susceptible to some of the damage mentioned throughout this thread.

Thats the thing, the idea that it is more brittle is a misconception. No one has yet said they have experienced owning a granite top saw and accidently breaking their miter slot. Only a few people have even seen it in a floor model/demo, which was intentionally abused. If intentionally abused a CI saw I could certainly damage the top as well. If care and common sense are used, Granite is far harder and more stable than CI, thats why it's used.


I don't this anyone is trying to make up excuses to avoid buying a tool with a granite top; from what I've read they're merely pointing out some valid observations and cautions.

I disagree, people are making all kinds of uneducated comments based on nothing more then their biased views. That is not a valid observation.


Granite tops are certainly prettier than its cast iron counterpart but I'd really like to know the real reason some of the manufactures decided to switch; was it the WOW factor?

Granite seems to be the latest craze for kitchens and bathrooms and it isn't necessary a bad choice in materials at all. Could it possible be less expensive from a manufactures point of view, quite possibly, but they're not passing it along to the consumer.

They are not necesarily prettier. That is subjective, and besides, anyone who buys a saw because it's "pretty" is an idiot. As has been pointed out, granite is likely not less expensive. Also, from what I understand the granite used on saw tops is very different than couter top granite, so the comparison is irrelevant. See what I mean about people making excuses when they are uneducated?

Other than the unfounded complaint that the miter slot could chip out (unfounded IMO because you would have to intentionaly be careless to damage it in that way), I am yet to hear a single good reason that granite is NOT better than Cast Iron.

Ryan

[Bob Genovesi]

Thats the thing, the idea that it is more brittle is a misconception. No one has yet said they have experienced owning a granite top saw and accidently breaking their miter slot. Only a few people have even seen it in a floor model/demo, which was intentionally abused. If intentionally abused a CI saw I could certainly damage the top as well. If care and common sense are used, Granite is far harder and more stable than CI, thats why it's used.



I disagree, people are making all kinds of uneducated comments based on nothing more then their biased views. That is not a valid observation.



They are not necesarily prettier. That is subjective, and besides, anyone who buys a saw because it's "pretty" is an idiot. As has been pointed out, granite is likely not less expensive. Also, from what I understand the granite used on saw tops is very different than couter top granite, so the comparison is irrelevant. See what I mean about people making excuses when they are uneducated?

Other than the unfounded complaint that the miter slot could chip out (unfounded IMO because you would have to intentionaly be careless to damage it in that way), I am yet to hear a single good reason that granite is NOT better than Cast Iron.

Ryan

What some of us try to do is to present data or information representing both sides of a discussion in an attempt to invoke thought, discussion, and to avoid an argument. Several post have indicated seeing damaged tops on display at local stores yet your rebuttal is the comments are unfounded and the damage was intentional from abuse.

Your comments are full on emotion and based on conjecture. You obviously own a tool with a granite surface or want one very badly and feel the need to defend it like your first born. Like you said; people here are uneducated and idiots.

What you've uncovered is a right winged conspiracy of cast iron topped tool owners in an effort to topple the unrelenting advancement of granite topped tools into shops across America and ultimately the world... Bravo!

As I clearly stated, to each his own...

[Nick Abbott]

Yes..it is true that is what I was told. Now.. if they flat out lied to me you perhaps could tell my what the truth is and your source as your post indicates you know.

Sarge..


John, my source is the following is an inaccurate statement:


Steel City has not had one person who purchased their granite top have the miter slot break.

Sarge..

Hell if you want to let the two guys you met drinking beer tell you different that's fine with me. (Did one of them happen to have a big "SC" on his chest?) Maybe they can sell you a saw while their at it :)

[Nick Abbott]

Thats the thing, the idea that it is more brittle is a misconception. No one has yet said they have experienced owning a granite top saw and accidently breaking their miter slot.

Ryan

Ryan, I know two guys who have had problems with the tops on their Steel City saws.

[John Thompson]

John, my source is the following is an inaccurate statement:



Hell if you want to let the two guys you met drinking beer tell you different that's fine with me. (Did one of them happen to have a big "SC" on his chest?) Maybe they can sell you a saw while their at it :)

Nick... I highly suggest you go back and read my post of what I said... and read it carefully. Your post to me stating they lied had my quote about how the granite top came about isolated at the top and then you stated they lied. hey lied. If you take the time to read carefully (which I doubt) the two guys at dinner statement I made were referring to how SC chose to use a granite top and absolutely nothing to do with chip-out on the miter slot which I will get to also.

The comment about the origin was made by Scott Box ( I will repeat myself here as that has already been stated in the original post you quote from) who was the PRESIDENT of Steel City at the time it was made. The other gentlemen the comment was made while he was listening was a partner in Steel City and the owner of the manufacturing plant in China who didn't dis-agree with the statement.

Now.. regarding the chip out... my quote on that (and again I will repeat myself because you didn't read and comprehend) is that at that time SC had not replaced a granite top to anyone after it was purchased.. taken home and in use. I didn't mention that more tops had been replaced from damage in shipment. What I did say that was 6 at that time. What I didn't that the dealers reported they had been broken by customers pulling the miter slot back too far at the time SC used a metal tab and the exact reason SC decided to replace the metal tab at the end with a plastic one which eliminates the problem. I will add that a number of tops had been replaced for having corners chip in shipment which is mainly the fault of a freight company as the saws come packaged with a steel cage around them. Steel roll cages don't stop fork lift tines. Those statements were given to me on a phone call (again I will repeat myself) by Jim Box who was the head of technical department and warranty returns at the time they were given to me.

And yes.. the two guys at dinner did have shirts with Steel City logos. One was the president at the time.. the other a partner and the Chinese manufacturer. As a matter of fact.. I introduced about 30 people from this forum to Scott Box during the IWF WW show as Steel City hosted Sawmill Creek at the show as a round-a-vue point. I worked as the host and I also worked demonstrating WW machines for SC at that week long show as most here can attest to.

Thank you but I already have a SC TS that I purchased with 100 hours of labor working for them demo'ing at the International WW Fair in Atlanta. For that matter I have an 18" BS and 8" jointer from them that were purchased full retail out of pocket. All have cast iron talbes but the jointer now has a granite fence as it was given to me to test immediately after it was introduced at AWFS in Las Vegas 3 years ago.

I have high respect for Scott Box.. I don't really know the Chinese partner that well. You basically accused them of telling me a lie. I have no reason to doubt them what-so-ever. But I gave you the benefit of the doubt to explain why I was lied too and where you got your source of information. You misquote me due to the fact you didn't really take the time to read what I actually said and didn't ask for clarification if you were in doubt.

So far you have accused me of a blanket statement which I replied to with a source. Now you accuse the source which I highly respect of telling lies even though they were at the time high ranking owners and employees inside the company.

So.. I think I will trust my source over yours in this case and I really don't appreciate the attack on their integrity when you simply recklessly read and twist what was said.. why and the sources which are much more reliable about company matters than you will ever hear from the average poster on an inter-net.

Have a good day, sir...

Sarge..

[Peter Quinn]

I get that the "top" is thick Sarge, and I have no doubt it is up to the challenge of the task at hand. But the miter slot is only .375" deep, which leaves those little ears that form the T of the miter slot some what less than .250"? That's the part that seems like unsupported tile to me. Not thick enough to resist the force that will be applied to it. It seems they do chip and crack at that exact point? I use that T slot as a clamping source for jigs and feather boards on my saw and I wonder what other options would be available for that purpose on a granite top.

My instincts say this could be better handled with a design meant for the granite material than by milling a T slot which may be more appropriate for iron tops.

[Bob Genovesi]

I get that the "top" is thick Sarge, and I have no doubt it is up to the challenge of the task at hand. But the miter slot is only .375" deep, which leaves those little ears that form the T of the miter slot some what less than .250"? That's the part that seems like unsupported tile to me. Not thick enough to resist the force that will be applied to it. It seems they do chip and crack at that exact point? I use that T slot as a clamping source for jigs and feather boards on my saw and I wonder what other options would be available for that purpose on a granite top.

My instincts say this could be better handled with a design meant for the granite material than by milling a T slot which may be more appropriate for iron tops.

Peter,

When I saw my first granite top with milled T-slots I thought the same thing. My second thought was; "why don't they just mill a grove in the granite and glue in a nice steel T-slot insert? A nice smooth granite top with a very strong steel insert, makes sense to me anyway...

[John Thompson]

I get that the "top" is thick Sarge, and I have no doubt it is up to the challenge of the task at hand. But the miter slot is only .375" deep, which leaves those little ears that form the T of the miter slot some what less than .250"? That's the part that seems like unsupported tile to me. Not thick enough to resist the force that will be applied to it. It seems they do chip and crack at that exact point? I use that T slot as a clamping source for jigs and feather boards on my saw and I wonder what other options would be available for that purpose on a granite top.

My instincts say this could be better handled with a design meant for the granite material than by milling a T slot which may be more appropriate for iron tops.

Peter... even though the miter slot really becomes a non issue with either a plastic end tab or simply removing the tab (the newer ones come with the plastic tab) my first though was exactly what Bob G. just posted after your post... use a steel miter slot expoxied into it. But.. they didn't ask me so I really have no clue why they did it the way they did.

I would not hesitate to put a granite top on either my TS.. BS.. love one on the jointer to accompany my granite fence (even though I am much more concerned with the fence being dead flat than the table) but... I would pass on the TS and here's why...

I hire out to prep thousands of feet of rough on occasion for those without the equipement.. time.. etc. so I am highly considering a power feed even though I for some reason enjoy ripping 12'-14' rough stock manually. I have the time and I just enjoy the challenge. But.. you need holes to mount a power feed and drillng in granite is not cheap nor something you can at home without the proper equipment.

In your case where you use the miter slot as an attach point to clamp I would also not recomend the granite as it defeats your need. Life is simple really and if what you want to do can't be done.. you have to take a different approach so CI should be your call just as it was mine on the power feeder issue.

And .. I also drill holes in the left extenion table to attach an additional piece of stock with another miter slot in it. I use a homemade springboard in lieu of a featherboard which allows me to rip stock 22" wide with support to the left so.. I cannot drill in the left extension as the granite is a solid one piece and there are no pre-drilled holes. I am not equipped to drill them and add a threaded insert expoxied in.

Another issue is the magnetic feather-boards. I don't use them because I I have lightly scratched the CI removing them but some do use them. If they do they have no choice to go CI.

The main reason I got involved in this post is simply things were being said about granite they frankly are way out of the ball-park in truth. Why? I suppose speculation and assumtion that seems to run rampant on forums for whatever reason? I really don't care what type top people chose but.. I do care about presenting the truth in pros and cons on both sides of an issue to help those that haven't been around make a deicision. Bob G. made a similar statement on this issue and I commend him for having that attitude.

I will challenge a statement if I know better or ask for clarification if in doubt. But.. I will call a spade a spade as no matter how you attempt to camoflage it.. it's still a spade and not a heart.. diamond or a club. I try to keep my mouth shut when I don't have a clue and listen but I hate to see something presented with not trues or partially true statements that without further explanation changes an entire meaning.

An example is the machinist plate that may have to be lapped every 1-2 years from wear. If you are in know on granite machinist plates you know that is irrelevant to this issue as we talk about wear under in the .0000 range and that has no relevance to WW what-so-ever. Some of the entry levels that look at a statement that might be considering granite are going to re-act... Opps.. it wears out from having to grind it and I don't have a top down the road out of warranty. The truth is it won't wear more than probably .001 over the life of the machine and that is peanuts when most CI tops come from the manufacturer around .002-.004 and some CI wings have dips as much as .015 which doesn't matter what-so-ever in the middle of a wing in true usage as long as the outer perimeter of the wing is basically flat. But a mis-conception is created by the original statement to those that don't know.

Anyhoo.. got to go pull some detail parts out of the clamps. I hate killing time with glue drying but you do what you have to do.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Kyle Iwamoto]

This topic is strange. What was the original question anyways? Yes, I did re-read the first post.....

Would I buy a granite table saw? Probably.

So, I just HAD to bump this thread back up.... LOL

[Chris Harry]

In regards to adding a steel "channel" in the miter slot.......whats really odd is that they did just that *for the support rods underneath each wing*. You slide the support rods into the main table top and then the extension wing over the support rod portion thats sticking out. They put T-slots in for the rods to slide into.

So, why not do it in the miter slots!?? No idea. Maybe that will be a "new feature" on the Ridgid 4512

[Blake Barr]

It's kind of funny the things people are chocking up to opinion that are easily verifiable and measurable facts like hardness, brittleness, cost of manufacture etc...

In all reality granite is harder, more brittle, cost alot to mine ie. cutting slabs takes hours to days when at the quarry using expensive machines. Mining is a high fixed cost business, kind of like mining gold. I would even be willing to bet that cast iron is at least as expensive or even cheaper than granite.

Now for my opinion... it makes no sense to even argue this point. Some people like pepsi, some people like coke. If you are constantly fighting rust or fiddling with a dial indicator checking flatness to 1/1000th of an inch maybe granite makes sense. If you don't want to tiptoe about your miter slots then get CI...

Ohh and I agree... why not just machine the miter slot and use an insert for the track... seems obvious to me

[Bob Genovesi]

I was just sitting here thinking, I know, my first mistake.

Are the granite tops coming on tools today natural granite or man made? The reason I ask, and I have read in detail everything posted, the grain and uniformity are near perfect in the samples I've seen.

I had the opportunity to get a good close look at a Steel City top over at WoodCraft and I swear it looked man made which is not necessarily a bad thing. Crushed granite combined with some space age polymers or resins should result in a very durable product and improve its impact resistance as well.

I dunno, just thinking out loud. :cool:

[Chris Harry]

In the biggest thread about the saw on RidgidForum.com I believe someone said its pure black granite thats used for the top/extensions. Pure black granite is supposed to be the hardset to chip, least amount of veins (so it wont crack along the vein lines), etc.

Not sure how true it is, but its there somewhere.

[Paul Ryan]

It is mined granite, not man made. The top that was on my saw had a couple of color imperfrections in it. Mine was one of the 1st few that were sold in MN. If you look at the pictures you can see a darker spot in the middle and some streaks on the left. Those were the colors in the granite, that is how it looked clean. That is why I say that a cast top is better looking to me, that shiny steel is mesmerizing.

[John Thompson]

I was just sitting here thinking, I know, my first mistake.

Are the granite tops coming on tools today natural granite or man made? The reason I ask, and I have read in detail everything posted, the grain and uniformity are near perfect in the samples I've seen.

I had the opportunity to get a good close look at a Steel City top over at WoodCraft and I swear it looked man made which is not necessarily a bad thing. Crushed granite combined with some space age polymers or resins should result in a very durable product and improve its impact resistance as well.

I dunno, just thinking out loud. :cool:

It is mined and comes from a quarry close to the SC manufacturing plant in China, Bob. High grade black granite but even that has to be culled out to use as a load bearing granite as needed on a machine top. Culled meaning that even from one high grade quarry, some will contain a stress streak visible that has to be rejected from use for a load bearer.

Sarge..

[Bob Genovesi]

It is mined and comes from a quarry close to the SC manufacturing plant in China, Bob. High grade black granite but even that has to be culled out to use as a load bearing granite as needed on a machine top. Culled meaning that even from one high grade quarry, some will contain a stress streak visible that has to be rejected from use for a load bearer.

Sarge..

Cool, thanks for the reply!