What is the core of your shop?

[Paul B. Cresti]

Jack Young,
I figured I would give it a shot since I was the one that introduced some of the "philosophy" of woodworking machinery, American vs European style. So here it goes. The opening questions/discussion is: How is your shop set up? Do you a one centrally located "core" piece of machinery that all of your other machines compliment or do you have mutliple machines that each serve its own particular purpose thus being "periphery"? So I will coin two types of shops, "core" and "periphery". How is that Jack?:)

[Donnie Raines]

for me its the work bench. Sure, the table saw is great and so is the router station....but everything happens at the work bench.

[Clint deal]

Well, i guess I'd have to say my tablesaw is the core in both pysical locations and work methods. it is located in the middle of my shop. i have my work bench on the infeed side, on wheels so if I need and infeed I roll it over.
My SCMS is on the left along with my jointer. my pocket hole machine, shaper and drill press are on the right side. Everything kind of revolves around the tablesaw. if I'm shaper stuff I can use the right tableboard to set stuff on between operations. If I'm cutting to length I can use the home made sliding table on the left to set stuff on.
Is that what you meant?
Clint

[Clint deal]

Well Donnie, we posted at the same time and after reading yours i guess you are probably right. When I'm at the work bench my back is usually towards the tablesaw and about 4 foot away. I guess it's a toss up too me between the bench and saw

Clint

[Jack Hogoboom]

For me, it's an assembly table. I'll make cuts or shape things on the machines, but normally most of the time is spent at the assembly table. I tend to sand, joint, etc. right there.

Jack

[Rob Russell]

Paul,

My shop has been centered around my tablesaw. At first it was a cabinet saw; now is a euro-slider. Same thing with jointer and planer (off to the side and benchtop) - the new combo j/p is large enough so it has to be a central part of the shop.

Rob

[Chris Padilla]

I grew up around a table saw and not much else. Dad and I did everything on his little Craftsman contractor saw. I sometimes wonder why I have and am accumulating all the woodworking crap that I have but so be it...I must need it right!? :D

I now have a nice large bandsaw (MM20) that I am still learning to incorporate into my thinking when planning projects. Soon I will have a very large 16" jointer/planer (MiniMax FS-41) to complete the "big 4" of woodworking equipment.

I dunno...I grew up around the TS and that is what I know but I'm trying to open up to the bandsaw more.

Actually, since I gutted my garage my shop is centered around clutter, clutter, and more clutter. I guess it gets worse before it gets better? :)

[Dennis Peacock]

The center core of my shop is my Jet cabinet TS and my Robland X31 combo machine which has a jointer/planer that I use all the time.

[JayStPeter]

In my old shop, there were very few flat surfaces. My tablesaw and my large 2.5' x 4' router table were the main work surfaces. The router table was actually designed to be multi-purpose and even includes a small vice.

Now that I have a little more space, I have a semi-permanent installation of a plywood grid with a 4x8 sheet of 2" foam board on some sawhorses. I have found that I do most of my assembly, buscuit cutting, pockethole cutting, routing, and panel sizing with my festool there. My Fein vac has taken up residence underneath and I have a couple pieces of MDF that I throw on there to become hard work surfaces. For my current project of building some cabinets, it has become the core of my shop. I've been giving some serious thought as to what type of permanent fixture(s) to make to improve the situation as the 4x8 size and location are difficult and the sawhorses make it less stable than I'd like. I'm almost thinking the core should be 3 things, a powertool bench, a handtool bench, and an assembly table. Unfortunately, still too little space for that.
As for core tools, my tablesaw is still it. Almost all pieces still get sized there. My jointer and planer are next as I wouldn't be able to use rough wood without them. While I do find handplanes fun, it would stop being fun after a few large boards ;) . I would love a euro setup, but I'd rather have the separate TS/shaper and jointer/planer machines than the big combo. My shop is odd shaped and one side of each would have to be against a wall.

As an aside, my previous discussions with Jack on the "philosophy" issue have been regarding the new "guided circular saw systems" (regardless of brand), how they have changed your shop and the 'table saw as core tool concept'. Obvious from my answer above, I think there is something to that. Maybe a future thread. Anywho, I don't know if that's what Jack intended, or how I twisted it. :D

Jay

[Jim Becker]

For flat work, the core of my shop is the "work triangle", consisting of my TS (a left-tilt Jet cabinet saw) and my Mini Max FS350 J/P. Since I use largely solid stock for my projects, all three functions are essential to my joinery. The CMS, BS, DP and drum sander play peripheral roles as necessary, although with the hefty BS, it may start to play a bigger role over time like Chris talked about.

Of course, I'm also a turner, so my Stubby 750 lathe is the "core" of that part of the shop, directly complimented by the MM16 bandsaw.

I may opt for a Euro slider someday; probably a saw/tilting shaper version if I do that, but for now, the work I do would not justify the investment other than to satisfy the pleasure I take in working with precision equipment. (I also have a space problem for that) Should I ever move to generating some portion of my keep via woodworking, I'd probably jump on the Euro slider in a second due to the efficiencies it offers when "time is money", especially since cabinet work, and hence, the need to deal with sheet goods, makes for more commercial opportunity.

[Ian Barley]

I'm not sure that there is a "core" to my shop. My situation is diffent from most in that I am making many repeats of the same item. That means I work in batches and the tool that I am using to process the batch at the time becomes the centre for that time.

I have recently acquired some big kit - Onsrud Inverted Router, Large (16") Thicknesser, Spindle Moulder. All to be properly spoken about when I have a bit more time. I suspect that the Onsrud will become more important as I develop templates etc.

I probably have what you would call a "Euro slider" in that the sliding table is an integral part of the saw not an add on. I use this for ripping and jointing as I can then accomplish both tasks at the same machine without having to handle timber twice.

The next most important items are my assembly jigs. If there was a fire I would probably grab those first along with the ratty old bits of MDF that serve as templates.

And if we are gonna venture into philosophy - the core of my shop is the wood that I use. Understanding how it behaves and know how to get the best out of it is the most challenging part of the process.

I really think that it is important to remember that the result is infinitely more important than the method and the tools are just a way to get the result

[Chris Padilla]

I really think that it is important to remember that the result is infinitely more important than the method and the tools are just a way to get the result
Ian, I must disagree with the above statement. I find the process just as rewarding as the product. Woodworkers often like to showcase their methods (of joinery, for example). The folks who prefer handtools over power might also disagree with you. I had a chance to use some Japanese planes many weeks ago and boy was it cool making shavings--even if the end result was only a nicely jointed piece of cedar and many shavings on the floor. Oh, the smell was wonderful, too! :D

And gosh darn it, it is FUN using cool, precise tools or even a simple template!! :D

[Frank Pellow]

In the thread entitled "Excaliber sliding table vs. Festool saw and rails?", I responded to this comment:
-

All-

On the one hand, there the traditional notion of the table saw as the core, the ultimate workhorse, of a respectable workshop. On the other, there is an emerging approach, manifested presently by Festool and Eurekazone, which makes the center of the shop quite something else, in which the table saw becomes a fringe item moreso than the center. The philosophies are quite different systemically, even though they both go to the same end.

Jack

with:

Jack, what you say above really has me thinking. My table saw is a 35 year old Craftsman and my current plan is to replace it with a good cabinet saw once I get my new workshop up and running and to make that the centre of my shop. Maybe I will purchase a less expensive (but still good) table saw and make smart tables and guide rails the heart of the workshop. I have about 6 months to decide. :confused:

I look forward to additional posts in this thread and I hope that they help me to make a decision.

[Pete Harbin]

Like Jack I spend a lot of time at the assembly table, with most of the smaller power tools, finishing, sanding, etc... Mine is the outfeed for my table saw, so the two together are probably what I would call the core of my shop.

Pete

[JayStPeter]

I really think that it is important to remember that the result is infinitely more important than the method and the tools are just a way to get the result


I'm with Chris, I'll also have to respectfully disagree. I'll definitely agree that the tools don't make the craftsman. But your statement is analagous to saying that cars and motorcycles are all about getting from point a to b. I've spent plenty of money to simply go around in circles fast, so I know that isn't true.

Some of us (myself included) do this for reasons other than what we actually produce. In this case, the most important thing is the process, methods, tools and of course ... shop (is that what Chris said?? :D ). Don't get me wrong, I expect to create some fantastic works in my shop. But, having fun doing it is what it is all about to me. I could probably buy custom stuff for less than the tools and wood I use to make it.
Some days, I'm all about going in and tweaking my tools to within 0.001", then making some test cuts and self gloating over the results. From then on, every time I use that tool, I internally pat myself on the back for setting it up to perfection. Makes me happy :rolleyes:

Jay

[JayStPeter]

Jack, what you say above really has me thinking. My table saw is a 35 year old Craftsman and my current plan is to replace it with a good cabinet saw once I get my new workshop up and running and to make that the centre of my shop. Maybe I will purchase a less expensive (but still good) table saw and make smart tables and guide rails the heart of the workshop. I have about 6 months to decide. :confused:
[/QUOTE]

Frank, A similar discussion in a ROS thread ?? lead me to comment on this. I sort of feel like the next generation smart tables and guide rails may be a valid replacement for significant functionality of the TS. I was thinking that my 50" rails may fade into uselessness if mfrs come up with improved versions of this stuff.

Jay

[Frank Pellow]

I really think that it is important to remember that the result is infinitely more important than the method and the tools are just a way to get the result

I must join Chris and Jay in their responses to this comment.

For me, the planning and the process are usually as important as the result. You might think that this true for me because woodwork is a hobby, but it was also true in my "for-pay" career as a software developer.

[Richard Allen]

The core of my shop is my lathe. All other tools in the shop are there to support the use of the lathe. The lathe takes up the center of the shop. There are many times when no other power tool in my shop gets used to make an item.

For me the process is more important than the result. If I only want the result I would just as soon buy it from someone else. And if someone talks nice I am likely to give the result free or for little money as I have already recieved the majority of the value during the process of making.

[Jack Young]

Paul and All-

I sign off the website for a few hours and look what's happened. Paul, you did great!!!

I suppose I'm much like a beginner, though I've messed around with ww over about thirty years, having a tiny shop in Little Rock, a garage shop in Chattanooga with a Craftsman Radial Arm Saw, band saw and jointer, all of which I sold when we moved here to the beltway twelve years ago, and, except for hand tools, which I kept, am starting over. The books I've read lately generally point to the TS as the core of things. But, in light of the fairly new innovation of guided systems using individual hand tools (which are not treated in any of the shop books I've seen) it has occurred to me that these systems are, in effect, for less than, say, industrial applications, anagalous to an inverted table saw you can easily carry around.

Based on, I think, one of Torpins recommendations, I bought the floor model of the Ryobi TS carried at Home Depot when I worked there a couple of years ago (I can hear you laughing now) and it is very good for lighter applications and tasks, but not for what the big boys, including sliders, are capable of doing. I find myself not using it much these days.

As it stands presently, the core for my shop is a Festool table with guide, etc., CS, jigsaw, sanders, vac and all. Ancillary items are router table, jointer, drill press, band saw, sharpening gear and a stationary belt/disc sander. I am designing a job for a friend, including panelling a basement room with real T in G material, built-in bookshelves on one wall and a built-in chest/dresser. With the "core," a jig or so and a router, I can do the whole project right there in my friend's basement, or do it in my shop, carrying the pieces back and forth, or both. The trade-off, I suppose, is that there is a limit to what the system approach can do, just as there are limits in transportability of the big stuff and, for most of us, the space in which to put it.

Jack

[Jim Becker]

I have a suspicion that what Ian said is being taken too literally. I took it as meaning there are multiple ways to get to the end result and whichever you choose, you're ultimately working for that excellent end result. I sure don't think that he meant (and Ian, if I'm wrong, correct me!) that we shouldn't care about what tools and/or techniques we use. Even a pro will take enjoyment from the process...whatever process he or she prefers. And I say this having had the priviledge of seeing first hand both Ian's work, methods and work ethic...we should all be fortunate to be so rich in all these things.

[Jerry Olexa]

Table Saw. Try as I may, the old Delta Tsaw ends up the center (core) of most projects . Of course, there are time you're heavy into the router table or the bandsaw or handwork on the workbench. But my winnner overall is the Table saw!

[Greg Mann]

This is a great thread. I have been slowly assembling an array of hand and power tools to establish a baseline capability for various projects, the width and breadth of which I do not know yet. This discussion is central to the issues I have been pondering for some time. I have a Bosch 4000 TS which functions reasonably well relative to my present skill level. I have come to understand its limitations and have also overcome many of them by aquiring the Festool saw and guide and constructing a clone of Festool's MFT. The TS, the Festool system, and a very nice router table (my first project) are the core of my shop. Unfortunately, at this time, my shop is better defined by what it doesn't have. No jointer, planer, no band saw. Regardless, because of the capabilities of the Festool system (and it could have been Eurekazone just as easily) I will not upgrade my TS until long after the other basic tools are aquired. But Paul has me thinking in terms of the combos as being much more viable than I might have thought. As this is a hobby for me, needing separate machines always at the ready for saving time is not such a big deal. I do also love high quality tools, the 4000 notwithstanding, so when the time comes to fill the holes I will be willing to go high end. My kids will have a great estate sale someday.:D

Greg

[JayStPeter]

Here's some of my response from the ROS thread run amuck. I've done some edits.

The advantages of the guided saw system are:

* Safety

* Size and portability.

* Dust collection that works. I suspect some euro saws may have this, but not US spec cabinet or contractor saws.


I think that compared to a table saw, the guided circular saw systems fall short in a few areas:

* Most significant is the ability to cut a repeatable perfectly parallel edge. You rely on measuring and aligning the edge to a mark to position these systems. It is fraught and getting two pieces the same requires some patience. I've spent a good deal of money on accuracy and repeatability and frankly, the guided saw system is a step backward. I can see ways to design a guide that may make the huge 50" cut fence systems on many of our saws obsolete. Something that would make a nice repeatable parallel cut. As it stands now, I usually "sweeten" the cuts I make w/ my guided saw on the tablesaw when multiple parts need to match. I think the Festool MFT is an attempt to solve this problem. But, it doesn't seem to solve the problem as I still need to make 2 cuts, one to size the panel down, and one to sweeten the cut. I still feel like I might as well use the TS. Plus, the mechanism is no Beismeyer.

* Cutting thin strips (i.e. less than 6") is difficult, if not just plain unsafe. It would require a pretty complex clamping guide to solve this one.

* Joinery cuts that require depth settings would require a more accurate depth setting method.

With the first problem solved, I could see lots of us not spending the big bucks on table saws and making them the center of our shop. Instead choosing a basic table saw and more complex and expensive saw guide system. Sort of reverse the tool expendature. I could definitely see a well implemented solution eliminating any need or desire for 50" fences and huge extension and outfeed tables. Thus freeing up some shop space for the new guided saw tables. I still see a european slider as the most desirable solution.


Jay

[Terry Hatfield]

Paul,

Interesting discussion. Good post.

For me I still say the core of my shop is........

<IMG SRC="http://www.terryhatfield.com/ntslf3.jpg">

with this a close second to.....

<IMG SRC="http://www.terryhatfield.com/new_bench_lf.jpg">



Terry

[Larry Browning]

I also agree with Chris. I like to say, "Its the journey not the destination that matters". To me that's what woodworking is all about. If the finished project was what really mattered I would just pay someone else to do the woodworking and proudly say "I bought that, didn't I do good?"

I wish I could say that I have a core to my workshop. That would mean that there is actually a "plan" and that I am organized. Not so, I don't know what I am going to do next or where and how I'm going to do it. Every time I try to get organized, I get a headache :eek:

Larry

[Greg Mann]

Here's some of my response from the ROS thread run amuck. I've done some edits.

The advantages of the guided saw system are:

* Safety

* Size and portability.

* Dust collection that works. I suspect some euro saws may have this, but not US spec cabinet or contractor saws.


I think that compared to a table saw, the guided circular saw systems fall short in a few areas:

* Most significant is the ability to cut a repeatable perfectly parallel edge. You rely on measuring and aligning the edge to a mark to position these systems. It is fraught and getting two pieces the same requires some patience. I've spent a good deal of money on accuracy and repeatability and frankly, the guided saw system is a step backward. I can see ways to design a guide that may make the huge 50" cut fence systems on many of our saws obsolete. Something that would make a nice repeatable parallel cut. As it stands now, I usually "sweeten" the cuts I make w/ my guided saw on the tablesaw when multiple parts need to match. I think the Festool MFT is an attempt to solve this problem. But, it doesn't seem to solve the problem as I still need to make 2 cuts, one to size the panel down, and one to sweeten the cut. I still feel like I might as well use the TS. Plus, the mechanism is no Beismeyer.

* Cutting thin strips (i.e. less than 6") is difficult, if not just plain unsafe. It would require a pretty complex clamping guide to solve this one.

* Joinery cuts that require depth settings would require a more accurate depth setting method.

With the first problem solved, I could see lots of us not spending the big bucks on table saws and making them the center of our shop. Instead choosing a basic table saw and more complex and expensive saw guide system. Sort of reverse the tool expendature. I could definitely see a well implemented solution eliminating any need or desire for 50" fences and huge extension and outfeed tables. Thus freeing up some shop space for the new guided saw tables. I still see a european slider as the most desirable solution.


Jay
Jay,

You have itemized many of the reasons I feel I can get away with a relatively limited TS in conjunction with a guided cutting system. Use the TS where it clearly excels and make up for its limitation with the guided system.

While I sometimes get confused by the acronyms, maybe we should consider using GCSS for 'guided circular saw system'. Being generic, it should not raise any brand bias, yet the system concept seems to be finding its way into many discussions these days. Opinions?

Greg

[Jim Becker]

The journey is definitely an important and enjoyable part of the process...but taking pride in the end result, no matter what methodology you use to get there is equally robust. When I walk into a room and see something I've made, I don't think about the tools I used--I think about how neat it is that I made that with my hands and mind, rather than delegating it to someone else. I gain serenity (and presumably better mental health...) from the journey. I gain appreciation for that journey from how the end result makes me or others happy. Is one better than the other?

[Dar Lounsbury]

I have to agree with Jack and Terry. The assembly table or workbench. Most projects use the TS or some other machine (s) but every project ends up on the assembly table except maybe for you spiney guys.

[Bart Leetch]

Jack Young,
I figured I would give it a shot since I was the one that introduced some of the "philosophy" of woodworking machinery, American vs European style. So here it goes. The opening questions/discussion is: How is your shop set up? Do you a one centrally located "core" piece of machinery that all of your other machines compliment or do you have mutliple machines that each serve its own particular purpose thus being "periphery"? So I will coin two types of shops, "core" and "periphery". How is that Jack?:)


Thats a good queation Paul.

How about this change. I am the center of my shop with my tools all around me. I would suggest you are the core of your shop. Without you when the shop lights are out & the door locked nothing happens. :)

[Joe Mioux]

This core thing has me thinking. If one considers the workbench/planning table as the brain, the saw(s)((TS, BS, CMS, etc)) as the heart and the jointer, planer or J/P combo, scrapers, etc as the soul, you can see that one could not live without the workbench (the brain) or the saws (the heart). But without the soul, the end result may not have any lasting meaning.

Joe

[Jack Young]

Jay's synopsis of the system approach, I think, omits (correctly, as he was speaking only to function) one feature that, to me, anyway, bears mention. For much of what we do from the honeydo list, i.e., my front steps which are being rebuilt and other odd jobs around the house, the same tools used by a guided system do double duty, in that they are usable without the guides, etc. To me, this means I can better afford quality hand power tools, be they whatever brand, to the extent of the money not spent on a state-of-the-art TS. Within the limitations Jay mentions, which seem to me about right, I am better off all around for most kinds of general work. Jay was not addressing cost, but it is a factor, it seems to me, up to a point, anyway.

And Jim Becker is right on about the importance of pride and satisfaction in what one does. I practiced law for 26 years, then parish ministry for 11, and am now in the ww trade, so to speak. I think that the trade work has the best of it for a number of reasons, but that's quite another potential thread, now, isn't it?

Jack

[Paul B. Cresti]

Ok here is my opinion. As others have mentioned the "core" of my shop is my workbench and computer/drafting table. I first sketch my designs by hand in perspective from many angles to achieve the style I am after. Then I imput it into Autocad to draft the construction documents (remember I am an Architect also). From there I create cut lists and a systematic approach to the creation/construction process. The actual checking off of items from rough cut to final sizing happens at the workbenches. I am always refering back to my cut lists, drawings and computer for info, so that is my shop core.

As far as machines go, there is no core machine. Instead my machines are the "periphery" set up I mentioned in my orginal post. Since I am now doing this professionally I strongly believe there can not be a single core machine any more. All the machines must work in harmony with eachother. Each machine becomes a station where one function is completed and then moves onto the next. The hobbiest shop, I feel, can have a true core machine as time is not of the essense. Now do not confuse my "time of the essense" statement as being my main goal in my shop. My main goal is quality design and construction first then trying to produce in a timley manner. This is where my new investment in machery comes in.

As Jim stated, Ian's statement was taken too literally. Do not forget both Ian and I are now doing this professionally and our goal is to produce a quality product. It really does not matter if he rips on his slider or I rip on my bandsaw if the end result is the same. We all in the end have our own way of doing things. I like all of enjoy each and every day in the shop, enjoy using my machines and enjoy installing my designs.

It would be interesting to hear from both hobbiests and professionals on their take on this subject.

[Mark Singer]

As I look at all the furniture and cabinets I have made I can't really say one tool or place in the workshop was mostly responsible or the core or center where the project came together. For me it seems like the sketchpad ....the initial idea and the sketched details that followed really was the form giving spirit and led to the construction methods that then followed. The joinery, material list connections design and proportions come together through the dialogue of drawing, sketching and finally making full scale cad drawings of certain details. All of us go to the lumberyard and return with boards and the quality and functionality of what these boards finally manifest is more the result of design and clarity of ideas than any single other thing. Even if your skill as a woodworker is limited a good design will make the most of your potential and the tools you have available. For me the best time to design is in the morning and often not in the workshop , it may be at the kitchen island , or I may be sitting up in bed. In the end the result is not a nicley crafted reproduction or execution of a plan from a woodworking magazine, instead it is something original, designed for its particular place , relating to the people and other pieces it will compliment. This is far more rewarding and will remain the core of each piece and the beggining of all my workshop activity.

[Matt Woodworth]

Cool thread. Like a poster above mentioned, the core of my shop is also a work triangle. I have a bench, and assembly table, and a unisaw. I spend almost all of my time between these three machines. I try to limit the planer and jointer work to just a few hours at the start of the project and the bandsaw, while useful, certainly isn't at the core for me.

I wish I had a better picture but if you look beyond the planer you'll see the area where I spend 90% of my woodworking time.
http://www.just4fun.org/images/woodworking/workshop/workshop-images/DCP_2095.jpg

[David Rose]

What a question! I don't own a table saw, so that can't be the center of my shop. My tools are mostly laid out around the edges of one side of my two car garage. The assembly table on the "other" side is a solid core door on saw horses for easy removal in case of hail. Yeah, right... Last hail, I got it all unloaded and moved and opened the door just as it stopped. :eek:

Using mostly S2S from a local mill, I spend a lot of time at the jointer, planer and bandsaw. Then wood goes back to the planer for gang planing or to the bench for hand planing the saw cut. Most of my jointery is done at the router table or the work bench with the FMT jig. Then I spend a lot of time at the setup table unless I prefinish which is done on a workmate or the work bench. My work seems to go in stages from "batches" of tools to other tools.

Then again, I do spend a lot of time after "shop" hours working on the design with Turbo Cad. I usually make drawings of every little detail. I enjoy that part of the job also, so I probably overdo that.

Hmmm... I never thought about how difficult this question might be to answer. I suspect I spend a lot of the percentage of time around the jointer and planer. But that is because of wood choice.

I have no idea! OK, Bart is right. I am the center. :D

David

[Ian Barley]

Ian, I must disagree with the above statement. I find the process just as rewarding as the product. Woodworkers often like to showcase their methods (of joinery, for example). The folks who prefer handtools over power might also disagree with you. I had a chance to use some Japanese planes many weeks ago and boy was it cool making shavings--even if the end result was only a nicely jointed piece of cedar and many shavings on the floor. Oh, the smell was wonderful, too! :D

And gosh darn it, it is FUN using cool, precise tools or even a simple template!! :D


Chris

You know sometimes how you say something and isn't quite what you mean??

You are absolutely right, I didn't mean to say that the end product was everything. I guess that what I meant was more along the lines that YOUR result was more important than YOUR tools. And yes - your result can be nothing more than a small pile of great smelling cedar shavings and a bit of knowledge gained.

If you choose to get pleasure by handcutting dovetails then great. If you choose to get pleasure by taking the time to set up a Leigh dovetail jig then great. I just think that we can sometimes get hung up on "I can't do that because I haven't got a wibble-wobble 5000".

Jay

"But your statement is analagous to saying that cars and motorcycles are all about getting from point a to b" - Good point well made. I also have to say that to me that is exactly what cars and motorcycles are. I'm really happy for folks who find them to be more than that but I don't. The journey is important but to me it is because of the view from the window - not because of the engine under the bonnet (hood).


Frank

I take your point completely but I suspect again that my lack of clarity hasn't helped. To put it in the context of your day job - what I was trying to say was that it isn't that important whether we achieve the result using visual basic or by writing machine code. I'm fairly sure that where a specific outcome is required one of the considerations is which technology is the best suited to achieve it. I know of an very talented programmer who still, for recreation, writes stuff in Turbo Pacal because he likes "the poetry" of the language. The important thing is that we get the result that we seek. I agree with you that planning is as much fun as building.



I sure don't think that he meant (and Ian, if I'm wrong, correct me!) that we shouldn't care about what tools and/or techniques we use.:D

Jim - Thanks for the kind words and for saying what I was trying to say better than I did. I hope that I can make it clearer by saying it as a negative.

I guess that I was trying to say that we shouldn't care about what tools we DON'T use. In my mind it is better to make the thing we want the best way we can, rather than not make it because we can't make it the best way that exists.

Terry

Come on - admit it - the shop vac and broom are the core of your shop!

[JayStPeter]

If you choose to get pleasure by handcutting dovetails then great. If you choose to get pleasure by taking the time to set up a Leigh dovetail jig then great. I just think that we can sometimes get hung up on "I can't do that because I haven't got a wibble-wobble 5000".


You're right. In fact, some of the things I like best in the pieces I have made are things that I figured out a way to get it done without the gadgetry.

I think my statements above that "I agree it's the craftsman not the tools" and "aside from your brain and hands" prove that we are in violent agreement. :D

Jay

[Bob Hovde]

Judging from the responses, the core of the workshop appears to be a passion for doing something oneself. Those who've turned woodworking into a profession still must have the passion to be successful over a long period. The rest of us make our beds, tables, chairs and bowls just for the satisfaction of creation. That may be why some feel the design part of the process is just as satisfying as the actual making of the item. While I save a lot of money using my tools to do repairs and modifications around the house, I'm sure that in the long run I'd have saved money by hiring it out and just buying the "extras" that I make. Everyone thinks I save money by doing things myself. We woodworkers know better. It's just a way of justifying another tool so that I can make something else - for the pleasure of it.

Bob

[Chris Padilla]

Chris

You know sometimes how you say something and isn't quite what you mean??
:D :p ;) It was fun busting your chops, Ian! ;) :p :D

I was pretty sure I knew what you meant but I thought I'd get the train wreck started...now about that avatar....

[Terry Hatfield]

Judging from the responses, the core of the workshop appears to be a passion for doing something oneself. Those who've turned woodworking into a profession still must have the passion to be successful over a long period. The rest of us make our beds, tables, chairs and bowls just for the satisfaction of creation. That may be why some feel the design part of the process is just as satisfying as the actual making of the item. While I save a lot of money using my tools to do repairs and modifications around the house, I'm sure that in the long run I'd have saved money by hiring it out and just buying the "extras" that I make. Everyone thinks I save money by doing things myself. We woodworkers know better. It's just a way of justifying another tool so that I can make something else - for the pleasure of it.

Bob

Bob,

Ahhh....I believe that you have stuck the proverbial nail squarely on the head. Excellent response. I couldn't agree more.

t

[Christian Aufreiter]

Judging from the responses, the core of the workshop appears to be a passion for doing something oneself. Those who've turned woodworking into a profession still must have the passion to be successful over a long period. The rest of us make our beds, tables, chairs and bowls just for the satisfaction of creation. That may be why some feel the design part of the process is just as satisfying as the actual making of the item. While I save a lot of money using my tools to do repairs and modifications around the house, I'm sure that in the long run I'd have saved money by hiring it out and just buying the "extras" that I make. Everyone thinks I save money by doing things myself. We woodworkers know better. It's just a way of justifying another tool so that I can make something else - for the pleasure of it.

Bob

Excellent response, Bob. I think your post explains the "magic of woodworking" very well.

Regards,

Christian

[Tom LaRussa]

I wish I had a better picture but if you look beyond the planer you'll see the area where I spend 90% of my woodworking time.
http://www.just4fun.org/images/woodworking/workshop/workshop-images/DCP_2095.jpg
Hmm...

So you, like, spend 90% of your time sitting by the water heater in quiet contemplation?

:p

[Tom LaRussa]

I figured I would give it a shot since I was the one that introduced some of the "philosophy" of woodworking machinery, American vs European style. So here it goes. The opening questions/discussion is: How is your shop set up? Do you a one centrally located "core" piece of machinery that all of your other machines compliment or do you have mutliple machines that each serve its own particular purpose thus being "periphery"? So I will coin two types of shops, "core" and "periphery". How is that Jack?:)
Paul,

My shop is still far too much a work in progress to answer your question directly -- unless I were to say that the center of my shop is a big dusty pile of tools which will hopefully get straightened out within a week. (They have to 'cuz next Friday is when my new Griz G0555 Ultimate Bandsaw is scheduled to be delivered.) {{{stealth pre-gloat}}}

Now then, to answer the question that most other folks answered.

I'd say that the center of my shop-life -- my reason for wanting to work wood -- is simply, wood itself.

This is hard to explain.

It's not the fact of transforming one thing into another thing. Nor is it merely the process of that transformation. It's something more than that, or at least something very different -- something connected to the nature of wood itself.

I've spent a lot of time making jigs, fences, router plates, and the like lately, from plastic, aluminum, plywood, MDF, and mild steel. Working with all of those things is satisfying in a certain way, but not like working with wood.

In a past life I did a little bit of gem cutting -- an endeavor which takes something natural, but not necessarily attractive -- and makes a thing of beauty out of it. But it's not like working with wood either.

I think it has something to do with wood being alive -- alive not in the sense of still part of a living, growing tree, (obviously), but in the sense of coming from something living and, even in "death", continuing to change, evolve, ...

I feel as though, if I respect the wood, and work with it, instead of working on it, then I can take this beautiful, once-living thing and make from it something that will continue to live -- both in the sense that the piece itself will continue to evolve, as well in the sense that the piece will be a part of the lives of the people who possess it -- however peripheral.

I'm probably babbling, and this is like post number 2000 on this thread and most likely nobody will read it anyway, so I'll just leave it there.

Tom

[Jerry Olexa]

Judging from the responses, the core of the workshop appears to be a passion for doing something oneself. Those who've turned woodworking into a profession still must have the passion to be successful over a long period. The rest of us make our beds, tables, chairs and bowls just for the satisfaction of creation. That may be why some feel the design part of the process is just as satisfying as the actual making of the item. While I save a lot of money using my tools to do repairs and modifications around the house, I'm sure that in the long run I'd have saved money by hiring it out and just buying the "extras" that I make. Everyone thinks I save money by doing things myself. We woodworkers know better. It's just a way of justifying another tool so that I can make something else - for the pleasure of it.

BobVery well said , Bob! You have a way of providing the simple truth while the rest of us are making it too complex. The key is we all enjoy it but take slightly different routes! Thanks!

[Ned Bulken]

The core of my partner's and my shop is my tablesaw. It is a 10" contractor's saw with a large outfeed/work table 4' x 6' , around the periphery of the shop we have a chopsaw station, router table, 6" jointer, 12 1/2" portable planer on a stand, small 650cfm DC, small sanding station 1" belt/8" disk, a larger sanding station 6" belt/ 8" disc, a 12" bandsaw, floor drill press, two personal workbenches, lumber storage racks and I'm sure at this hour I'm missing something, oh yeah 16" vs scrollsaw. We do a little of everything, but the TS is definitely the core of our shop.

[Bob Winkler]

[QUOTE=Bob Hovde]Judging from the responses, the core of the workshop appears to be a passion for doing something oneself.

Exactly my sentiments. I have this quote on my office wall:

" I cannot imagine a life in which I am not creating things. If I can't- or won't- create, why am I even here?" Thomas Moser, furniture maker

The core of my workshop is my drive to create. That is our common thread. The techniques of how we do it (the planning, designing, implementation) are as individual as we are. And whether I am building an heirloom in my workshop, building a garden shed, or making a paver patio, the drive to create is there- and I hope it never goes away.

Let me take this opportunity to thank all the great woodworkers for their great posts on this board. I finallly feel like there is somebody out there who understands what I often can't talk about to my wife and kids.

[Frank Pellow]

[QUOTE=Bob Hovde]Judging from the responses, the core of the workshop appears to be a passion for doing something oneself.

Exactly my sentiments. I have this quote on my office wall:

" I cannot imagine a life in which I am not creating things. If I can't- or won't- create, why am I even here?" Thomas Moser, furniture maker

The core of my workshop is my drive to create. That is our common thread. The techniques of how we do it (the planning, designing, implementation) are as individual as we are. And whether I am building an heirloom in my workshop, building a garden shed, or making a paver patio, the drive to create is there- and I hope it never goes away.

Let me take this opportunity to thank all the great woodworkers for their great posts on this board. I finallly feel like there is somebody out there who understands what I often can't talk about to my wife and kids.

Good initial posting Bob. I too often turn to this forum in order to find kindred spirits. Of course, I also get lots of help from the members.

Now, lets hear more about you and your projects (with pictures, if possible).

[John M. Cioffi]

As far as tools are concerned; The core of my shop is the tablesaw/bench combination,which is the center rectangle in the middle of my shop.(2-car garage).
Everything happens right there.
For any other application; the center of my shop is my Wife- who was the one to encourage me in starting this fabulous hobby/craft.:)

[Christian Aufreiter]

Although I think that the initial idea was to discuss table saws, guided circular saws, Euro-style saws I really appreciate those posts which cover many aspects of the topic "Why woodworking?".
IMO, the core of any woodworking shop, both hobbyist and professional, is the woodworker and the love given to his projects.
And although I dream of a big shop and a sliding table saw, I know that those things are not as important as my passion for experimenting with wood. Experimenting is a better word than “working”, I guess, because it involves all senses. It’s the smell of wood and the feel if you touch a rough or a planed board, the sound of the sharpened plane blade when you produce shavings and the shiny surface when it’s finished.
Yes, I produce shavings and sometimes I plane a board. You probably ask, “What’s the difference?” That’s simple. I use to plane a board when it should be flat. And I use to produce shavings for the shavings’ sake – and for my personal enjoyment.
It’s a wonderful feeling to complete a project and I a good reason to be proud. But it can be even more satisfying if you sit down on your workbench, take out one of your favourite tools, smell the mixture of wood, glue and stain and forget everything around you for a moment.

Regards,

Christian


It's not my intention to debate the situations of pro woodworkers because I'm not familiar with their situation and there's such a great variety (1 guy shop - production shop).

[Jack Young]

This thread has been pure dynamite. There are quite a few now who have said it has been helpful in orienting them in their entry to more serious wwkng, with a tooling approach that makes a bit of sense and gives direction. . . and, shall I use the word, "hope?" But I'm touched also by the articulation and depth of comments going to the essence and function of wwkng as an example of a creative life. My personal thanks to everyone who talks of that, as well. To me, the business of creativity is at the very core of it all, and, in a sense, a tool in and of itself.

I once built something of an HO model railroad layout in the garage attic. Model railroading offers a whole world to the engineer, who tends toward elaborate and amazing switching yards and mechanical/electrical configurations. It also lends itself to the artist, who is more into scenery, mood and aesthetic appeal, i.e., artistic design. WWkng offers both, and more, without being limited to a particular theme. There is an aspect of woodworking for every type or orientation, but there is a companion "pull" from the books, magazines and BBs such as SMC, into arenas that don't come so naturally for any of us. It literally pulls more out of us than we thought we ever had. For me, the technical side is my learning edge, and the learning curve is awesomely steep right now. For another, it might well be design issues, and so on.

But the essence of it is creativity. In my experience, I don't move much until, in a nearly zen-like sort of way, I engage with both the material and the machine, or tool, or idea, so that I'm not even conscious of myself at all. Then is when all kinds of things begin to happen and learning occurs without any way to articulate it, at all. And, from such a state of mind, for me, at least, I transcend myself to some new level, which becomes the starting point for yet the next growth spurt. It is a very private sort of thing, it seems to me, and a process which contributes to good emotional health, a kind of microcosm of how one might engage with life itself.

The least limited tool in the shop, hands down, is the creative mind of the person who is there. The physical tools, be they core or peripheral, each have their known limits.

Jack

[Mark Singer]

This truly is a great thread and really is getting to the "core" of why we love woodworking , the spirit and feelings we each have and the art of making something. The equipment and tools are important, but I would like to relate an experience that we have probably all shared in some form.
Several years ago I went skiing with two friends and I knew one was a great skier even though I hadn't ever skied with him. Well in preparation I rented super performance equipment I had Vokel Kevlar with all the special this and that and super boots with my custom made insoles....I am ready to go! Boy am I ready! Well Dave shows up with an old pair of skis...pretty beat up looking and what looked like cheap rental boots...a faded ski parka on top! It really didn't matter when we hit the moguls,,,,he made his second quality stuff shine as he skied the "tops" like a pro. I just watched in awe! Nothing I could make my great equipment do would be close and it wasn't.
The point is at any equipment level to learn to use what you have to its potential. There are many people on this forum with big budgets for tools and great workshops. Great enjoyment can be derived in woodworking with a modest shop. The special rewards and feelings are shared among all of us at each level.

[Andy London]

I do quite a bit of production picture framing so the core tool is my table saw. Everything is set up counterclockwise in that I start and by the time I have a finished product, I am back at the start....just saves time and walking around.

[Frank Pellow]

I really like a lot of what I have read in this thread, but I don't think it is what Jack intended when he suggested such a thread. Please correct me if I am wrong Jack.

What I had hoped to see was more of relative merits of two different ways of handling most of the sawing in ones shop:

- (1) The first method is the "traditional" table saw.
- (2) The second method uses a guided circular saw with both portable guide rails and permanent guide rails on "smart" tables.

I am seriously thinking of centring my new shop on the second approach.

There has been some of this discussion but not as much as I had hoped there would be.

[John Miliunas]

OK, I'll take a stab at this and attempt to leave the philosophy(s) of why we are woodworking in the first place to those more profound than myself. :) Referring back to the original post, I guess I find it a bit hard to comprehend how any single machine or workstation would be the "core", per se. My "core" tool is, in actuality, very dynamic. That being, whichever work station I happen to be occupied at for the moment. I went for quite a long time without a nice router table and now, can't hardly imagine a shop without one, but would I consider it the "core" of the shop? No. My Delta contractor saw did an admirable job when I had it, but now that I've got a nice cabinet saw, is it the "core" of my shop? I think not. Material hitting the saw needs to be jointed and planed, so one of those needs to take top billing. Right? Of course not. :rolleyes: That said, I have to believe than, at least my shop, is definitely of the "peripheral" flavor. A few days ago, my Smart Guide was the core of my shop. Yesterday, it was my bar clamps. Today, it was my portable miter saw setup and Festool drill. Tomorrow, it looks like much time will be spent on the TS. Basically, a "team" effort on the part of all my tools, sometimes many are used directly in conjunction with one another, sometimes nearly going solo with one of them and only complemented by another. Someone much wiser than myself had said at one time that, you need to use the right tool for the right job. This holds true in many aspects of many activities, not the least of which is the wood-shop! Don't know. Maybe that's my own justification for being the tool junkie that I am! :rolleyes: That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! :D :cool:

[David Rose]

What makes a tool the "core" of the shop? Is it the "most used", "most indespensible", or "fastest/best"? About every tool that I use causes need of a good square and some sort of wrench or driver. Many projects do too. I use my pushblocks (old style) on most of the stationary tools. There are many different ways to do different things for almost every job that do, except one...

Glue! I couldn't do much work without some sort of glue. Mechanical fasteners are fine in their places, but I NEED glue! :D No, I don't have a power dispenser so maybe that doesn't count. :o

David


OK, I'll take a stab at this and attempt to leave the philosophy(s) of why we are woodworking in the first place to those more profound than myself. :) Referring back to the original post, I guess I find it a bit hard to comprehend how any single machine or workstation would be the "core", per se. My "core" tool is, in actuality, very dynamic. That being, whichever work station I happen to be occupied at for the moment. I went for quite a long time without a nice router table and now, can't hardly imagine a shop without one, but would I consider it the "core" of the shop? No. My Delta contractor saw did an admirable job when I had it, but now that I've got a nice cabinet saw, is it the "core" of my shop? I think not. Material hitting the saw needs to be jointed and planed, so one of those needs to take top billing. Right? Of course not. :rolleyes: That said, I have to believe than, at least my shop, is definitely of the "peripheral" flavor. A few days ago, my Smart Guide was the core of my shop. Yesterday, it was my bar clamps. Today, it was my portable miter saw setup and Festool drill. Tomorrow, it looks like much time will be spent on the TS. Basically, a "team" effort on the part of all my tools, sometimes many are used directly in conjunction with one another, sometimes nearly going solo with one of them and only complemented by another. Someone much wiser than myself had said at one time that, you need to use the right tool for the right job. This holds true in many aspects of many activities, not the least of which is the wood-shop! Don't know. Maybe that's my own justification for being the tool junkie that I am! :rolleyes: That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! :D :cool:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hi guys,
This has been quite an interesting thread. Many different posters with many different takes on the same question. I based my orginal question on the notion that most "people" (I do not know who these "people" are though) say the (Americans at least) table saw is the core of the shop. I personally do not believe it to be true.

As others have said there is no real core of your shop (except yourself....) and the shop is actually a more "periphery" set up. Each tool or machine added just gives you the ability to complete one function faster, easier or more accurately. Some machines can perform many functions or can have jigs created to perform these additional functions. The table saw is just one of these machines that can perform many functions if need be, but some of these functions can be done by other machines safer, quicker.... Many have been asking about the guided rail saw sytems. Once again they can aid in once aspect of your work but will not solve all your needs. How you choose to complete your tasks in your shop is a very personel approach. I may choose to rip on a bandsaw while somone else on the tables saw, two different approaches to the same end.

I think one should find a systematic approach to woodworking that works best for oneself and then stick with it and fine tune it as needed. Lets face it we do not need power tools to do woodworking anyway, have you ever seen traditional Japanese woodworking?, not an electron in sight. One manufacturer/owner whom I have had some problems with sent me an email stating their product was made to eliminate the numerous accidents/amputations caused by a certain machine. But, no one is holding a gun to our heads telling us to buy one machine or the other, we make our own choices. We all know how dangerous WW can be. I have given myself the worst cuts using the "safe" tools like a chisel more so than an other tool.

Woodworking is about transforming wood into useful products, beautiful works of art and both. Yes I enjoy my tools very much but for me the beauty of WW is to be able to create something in my mind, draw it, construct it and then stand back and look at it and say, "I made that". Now that I do this professionally I get even more satisfaction when my client is happy with what I created for them.

[Ian Barley]

I really like a lot of what I have read in this thread, but I don't think it is what Jack intended when he suggested such a thread. Please correct me if I am wrong Jack.

What I had hoped to see was more of relative merits of two different ways of handling most of the sawing in ones shop:

- (1) The first method is the "traditional" table saw.
- (2) The second method uses a guided circular saw with both portable guide rails and permanent guide rails on "smart" tables.

I am seriously thinking of centring my new shop on the second approach.

There has been some of this discussion but not as much as I had hoped there would be.

Frank

I think that the reason that there hasn't been more discussion of this aspect is that most people will not have had too much experience of both as their main method of cutting timber.

I suspect that if both options are available then they would each be used according to their appropriateness to the job in hand. I have access to a vertical wall mounted panel saw (not mine - a neighbours). This to me is pretty much the equivalent of a guided rail on steroids. Probably a bit easier to set up but basically employing the same principle of having the workpiece static and moving the tool over it. When I need to size sheet goods I do it on their.

If I needed to cut 12 4" x 4' strips from an 8' x 4' sheet of 1/2" ply I would rough size the sheet on the wall saw. This enables me to leave the timber static while it is heavy and unwieldy which gives me more control.

I would then take the result to the table saw to cut the strips because it is easier to get accuracy on the table saw.

If I needed to reduce one of those strips by 1/16" I would go straight to the table saw beacuse the adjustment and maintenance of that sort of precision is easier and quicker on the table saw.

If I could only have one of them I would rather it was the table saw because I use that many, many times more often. I am sure that I could do nearly everything I do on one on the other.

It has always been my experience that taking the workpiece to the tool tends to result in a more efficient, safer, higher quality result. That is why it is the paradigm most often used in any pro setting. I know that efficiency isn't everybodies most important consideration but safety and quality should be.

In short - there isn't an answer. Either option is likely to have limitations and strengths. Having both gives the most choice. But if I were making the same decision I would have to go with the evidence of history and choose the tablesaw.

[JayStPeter]

I really like a lot of what I have read in this thread, but I don't think it is what Jack intended when he suggested such a thread. Please correct me if I am wrong Jack.

What I had hoped to see was more of relative merits of two different ways of handling most of the sawing in ones shop:

- (1) The first method is the "traditional" table saw.
- (2) The second method uses a guided circular saw with both portable guide rails and permanent guide rails on "smart" tables.

I am seriously thinking of centring my new shop on the second approach.

There has been some of this discussion but not as much as I had hoped there would be.

Frank,

I was sort of hoping to have a discussion along these lines also. I'll start another thread as this one seems to have gone in another direction (not a bad direction, just another direction).

Jay

[Jack Young]

Frank, and All-

What you mention, Frank, is more what I had in mind initially, but the range of responses to the topic has been a source of ideas and perspectives that, even as we read them, change and challenge our individual gut response to what the question really is. At least, it is so for me. I have gotten something from every post, but perhaps I'm one of those people who doesn't care so much for closure as for the shaping of the question itself. The contributions here each help me with that, and there's lots of time yet. This is such fertile ground, maybe all of it will get covered eventually.

Jack

[Steve Clardy]

Well I have watched this thread long enough so have got to post. Ha
I want to say that my table saw is my core of the shop, but thinking about it, I do not know if thats true. Without it, what use are my other tools?
Being in business probably makes my system different than most here that are weekend woodworkers, but yet all get the same results, something made that you are proud of.
I start with pulling out rough stock from my rack, or sheet goods.
I have a radial arm saw next to lumber rack, doing the rough cuts. Next is the jointer, trueing up a board side to be ripped on the table saw. Then comes the planer, taking stock to thickness. Sometimes not necessarly in that order.
Then comes the miter saw, end cutting to precise lengths. Then maybe on to a router table, or to an edge sander, or to the glue-up table, or back to the shaper.
End result is all this material ends up on the assembly bench.
So what is my core of the shop? I really think that without a table saw in my shop, it would be difficult to use the other tools to get these pieces to the assembly table.
Steve