I like Titebond III but...

[Brian Penning]

...been noticing that I get a lot of glue creep with it.
Anyone else?

[Jay Jolliffe]

I made some end grain & long grain cutting boards a while back & I think they all had glue creep mostly on the end grain ones though.

[Dell Moore]

Glue creep?

[Adam Grills]

Brian,
I have noticed that as well but find that increasing the clamping pressure helps alot. In your case for leg to seat joints you can't really do that as well. I'm not using III all that much anymore for that reason so I am still using II.

Another note to make people like us that live in regions where there is such a wide humidity change over the season we will experience more expansion and contraction of wood which inturn give greater glue creep than a place with a more constant humidity.
Adam

[Brent Smith]

Hi Bri,

Titebond III is supposedly a creep free glue......so they say. I've given up on using it and gone back to TB II and Lee Valley's house brand. I did find that less is better with TB III. Just painting the parts with a VERY thin coat, as opposed to slathering them, gave a better bond with no creep as of yet. I found that the time involved in getting the glue spead that thin was just too annoying. As Adam said, increased clamping pressure also helps, but the problem with that is possibly bowing your assembly.

[Ben Davis]

...been noticing that I get a lot of glue creep with it.
Anyone else?
I'll claim ignorance here and not know exactly what you're speaking of. I am however interested to know if you've had luck with TB III in outside applications. I'm in the beginnings of a mailbox and looking for a good weather resistent glue. TB III comes to the top of my mental list.

[John Thompson]

I have found III will definitely creep and especially if you use to much. I don't have a problem spreading thin as I use chip brushes and acid brushes depending on the size of the glue-up. But.. I also keep II on hand so it depends on the project. The III does have a bit more open time so in a work-bench top or numerous DT's.. I may need it. Other wise I perfer the II with less open time but will set much quicker than the III.

Sarge..

[Chris Padilla]

I'll claim ignorance here and not know exactly what you're speaking of. I am however interested to know if you've had luck with TB III in outside applications. I'm in the beginnings of a mailbox and looking for a good weather resistent glue. TB III comes to the top of my mental list.

I'd use epoxy for outdoor stuff but TB III is supposed to work well, too.

[Chris Padilla]

I have found III will definitely creep and especially if you use to much. I don't have a problem spreading thin as I use chip brushes and acid brushes depending on the size of the glue-up. But.. I also keep II on hand so it depends on the project. The III does have a bit more open time so in a work-bench top or numerous DT's.. I may need it. Other wise I perfer the II with less open time but will set much quicker than the III.

Sarge..

I've yet to witness TB III creep but it depends on the application and the joint. If you like TB II but need the open time, they make a TB II Extend...which I've used and needed and APPRECIATED in the past. In fact, I've got a glue-up in the next day or two requiring its services.... :D

[Mike Henderson]

I haven't noticed any creep with TB III but we don't get a lot of temperature and humidity changes here.

But now that you raised the question, I'll start looking for it.

Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

III is a creepy glue. There's no getting around it.

[Curt Harms]

I've yet to witness TB III creep but it depends on the application and the joint. If you like TB II but need the open time, they make a TB II Extend...which I've used and needed and APPRECIATED in the past. In fact, I've got a glue-up in the next day or two requiring its services.... :D

I was looking at this for a cabinet glue up. The chalking temp. for TBII extend is around 60 degrees, chalking temp for TBIII is 47 degrees. TBII extend does have more open time. This may not be an issue at this time of year but is an issue during colder seasons.

Titebond III (http://www.titebond.com/ProductLineTB.asp?prodline=94&prodcat=1)

Titebond II extend (http://www.titebond.com/ProductLineTB.asp?prodline=13&prodcat=3)

[Matt Armstrong]

I have a bunch of TB3 but it's really not my preferred glue. I prefer TB2 by a significant margin. Purely anecdotal though.

[Chris Padilla]

What we call "glue creep" is really a couple different things that are
happening.

It doesn't matter what type of glue it is - white, yellow, hide, epoxy, plastic
resin, or whatever, ALL useable wood glues have some degree of elasticity and
plastic properties. If it didn't the glue joint would be brittle and break
apart with the seasonal wood movement. An example of a brittle glue would be
CA, and for that reason it is not a good adhesive for a segmented turning. At
the other end of the spectrun we will find the Elmers "White Glue" which
retains a considerable "rubbery" consistency after it has dried. The Titebonds
are somewhere in the middle, making them a more suitable adhesive for our work.

There are two different things happening. One is that the plasticity of the
glue in the joint allows the two pieces of wood to move relative to each other.
This is what happens when we use woods with different expansion and hardness
characteristics on opposite sides of a joint.

The other is a property called "hysteresis", a common property of all
elastomers. This word describes the fact that when an elastomer is stretched,
it will not retract totally to its original form. When a segmented bowl expands
to a larger size, it pulls the glue in the joint along with it. When the wood
retracts back to its original size, the glue does not return all the way. This
leaves the joint with a little ridge of glue sticking out from it.

If there is a considerable difference in the characteristics of the wood, a
step or offset can develop between the pieces across the joint.

These things are a fact of life when we glue two pieces of wood together, and
nowhere are they more obvious than in a segmented turning. How much is
acceptable is a matter of definition. Many woodturners and the public that
looks at our work have seen so many bad joints that they are becoming
acceptable as the "norm" for segmented turnings.

However, there are some things that we can do to all but totally eliminate
these results of the wood movements. We can make sure that the joint is tight,
and that the glue is totally cured. Then we can a few things to keep wood
movement to a minimum. A tight joint will have a minimum of glue in the joint.
The glue cure and wood movement can be handled with care and time.

I use what I call the "30-30-30 Day Rule" as the minimum time between the major
steps in the process.

All wood is allowed to sit in the shop for 30 days before it is sawn. This
allows the moisture to stabilize to equilibrium with the atmosphere in my shop.

The bowl is allowed to sit for another 30 days after it is assembled. We have
added a lot of moisture into the wood around the glue joints. This wait allows
the assembly to achieve a uniform moisture content and for the adhesive to
TOTALLY cure. Yes, glues develop enough strength that it can be handled in a
short period and we hear folks talking about such things as waiting 5, 10, 20,
or 60 minutes. But, a 100% cure of the adhesive will take up to 30 days or
more.

The last 30-day wait comes after the bowl is finished and rough sanded. Turning
and sanding heat the wood and lower its moisture content. This wait allows the
wood to stabilize with the atmosphere around it. It also allows the wood to get
used to its new shape and relieve any internal stresses that were released by
the turning, and some additional time for the glue in the joints to cure.

Now, the piece can be finish sanded and finished. Most of the joint problems
will be sanded away.

We can also do a lot by choosing woods that behave the same way with
temperature and humidity changes. It isn't by accident that most of my
segmented turnings are made from Honduras Mahogany, Walnut, Birch, and Holly.

As for all of this "waiting". Is it overkill? Maybe. But, my most stable bowls
are those that have had a year between their assembly and turning. I have been
able to move several of these several times between the humidity of FL and
Western WA, and the dry CA desert, without seeing any changes in the smoothness
of the wood across their joints.

Others may disagree with my methods, but this is what works for me.

Russ Fairfield
Post Falls, Idaho



Russ, Good description and good solution it appears. I'm glad you put the
phrase "glue creep" in parenthesis, since this may not be the culprit.
According to mechanical engineers (I'm not one) creep is the permanent
distortion of a material under a compression force that is less than its
compression strength. I'm not sure that creep is at work since the large
forces necessary to make a plastic creep would also crush wood.

Plastics engineers know that a plastic part will creep away from the
pressure of an assembly screw given time. That's the reason many assembly
screws have a built-in washer, to lower the compression force and eliminate
creep.

I've tested some materials on an ASTM device that measures creep. This
included polyester resin loaded to 2000psi for two days. Except for an
initial creep when the resin lost the last remaining amounts of sytrene
solvent, it did not creep any more than aluminum, which is to say almost
none at all. Unfortunately, I didn't test epoxy resin or resorcinol, which
I think wouldn't creep much. I suspect the water-borne adhesives like PVA
and aliphatic resin would exhibit creep. But again, it needs to be a large
force. The question is, how large and is that force present?

Also, creep ocurrs under compression. Does compression exist in a glued
object? I'd hazard a guess that once the clamps are removed the forces on
the glue joints move from being under compression to either shear or
tension. All in all, I doubt if creep is the culprit. More likely something
related to moisture.

Dan Bollinger



I found the above exhange on "another forum" with a Google search of "what is glue creep". Interesting.