Request for brutaly honest Creekers

[Aaron Berk]

Ok here goes.
I've never had a single lesson on any woodworking.
I've been at it the last 4-6 yrs.
I've got big ambitions, and even bigger dreams.
To top it all off, SWMBO is behind me 110%

So here is the nitty gritty where I need some pointers. I took a video of myself today ripping down a full 4x8 sheet. I'm dead set on doing this on my table saw. I have no desire to set up guides for my circ saw. I do however have a slick guide that my circ saw rides on so as to get a tear out free straight cut with no measuring for off set. But I only use it for cross cutting plywood. When I was making this rip cut today I boged down the saw pretty good, and I think I was feeding to fast for the capacity of my saw. So can I get some coments from the penut gallary as well as the guys up in the box office? Lay it on me thick, where can I improve the most here? I added a pic of the blade I was using, which I'll never use again. I'm in the market for a better plywood blade.

Thanks in advance, now bring it on:cool:
Aaron.




Wouldn't you know it!! You tube is doing maintenance and I can't get at my video. RATS! I'll add it in the morning, need to get to bed any way. SMC is WAY to addictive.

Ok, youtube is up this morning, so here is the vid of me doing my thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1iuCshio4


Add a few things here, the saw is a single horse contractor 113. craftsman series upgraded with machined pulleys and a link twist belt. The wood being cut is nothing more than 3/4 sandleply? (spelling)
What may not be apparent in the video was the breaker tripping, I didn't shut off the saw at the end of the cut.

[Mike Henderson]

This is not a comment about you cutting sheet goods.

What you really should do is take a basic course in woodworking. If nothing else, it will give you a good grounding in how to work in the shop safely - and what procedures to avoid. Sure, you can learn it all by experience but that's really painful.

Mike

[Matthew Hills]

Ok here goes.
When I was making this rip cut today I boged down the saw pretty good, and I think I was feeding to fast for the capacity of my saw.

I dunno. Plywood isn't an especially heavy load on a table saw, although not sure how that 200 tooth blade will affect the cut. I'm usually ~40tooth combination blade with carbon teeth. For plywood rips, the cut is usually along the grain of the veneer and I don't have issues with chipping/tearout (cross-cuts require more care--that 200 tooth might come in handy there; I use tape and set blade height carefully)

Going back to the bogging the saw: do you think you might be binding the blade in the kerf -- either by not having the rip fence parallel to the blade or by getting a bit of rotation when handling the sheet?

How high do you set the blade? (reducing the height a bit can help reduce tearout on the bottom, but the cut isn't as easy across the top, as there is more arc in the blades entry into the wood)

Matt

[Mike Gager]

without seeing the video maybe some more info like type of saw, technique, were you using a splitter, do you have outfeed support. that kind of stuff.

it sounds like you probably werent feeding the sheet straight through or your saw isnt set up properly. ive used that same exact oldham blade to cut plywood and it really shouldnt be a problem using it but it wont stay sharp long as its not a carbide blade

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Is there a video of you ripping the plywood missing here?

[Matt Armstrong]

I can't see the video but a 200 tooth blade is going to be really unforgiving with slop. Even the slightest bit of heel is going to bog down the blade pretty bad. I also can't see what kind of saw you're running but my guess is that imprecision + lack of power + too many teeth on the blade = fail

[Rick Fisher]

I dont think I have ever seen a 200 tooth blade before..

I use a 40 tooth WWII on ply.. sometimes a Freud Glue Line Rip..

Okay.. bandsaw has more teeth than that.. so I have seen one.. :eek:

I would guess you would need to go really slow with that blade.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Brutal & honest = quit fooling around w/the wrong saw.
A sliding table saw is what you want.
The real question is do your ambitions match the price tag of one?

[Andy Bardowell]

I bought one of those blades once, it's been hanging on a nail in the shop after one try years ago.

[Don Dorn]

Brutal honesty - cut it in the manner that works best for the equipment you have (which is the CS). Don't try and cut to final dimensions and with a 4 x 8 sheet, give yourself an extra inch of width. Once you have it cut down, it's much easier to handle on the TS in order to get to final dimensions.

In other words - don't rule something out of which you have the means to complete it in a safe manner, even if it takes a few extra minutes. Lastly, I'd dump the 200 tooth blade and get a good quality 40 tooth - it will do perfectly well.

[Michael Pyron]

so...you have a cross cut jig for a circular saw....nice, I have 3 of them...

one is 30", another is 53", and the last is 8'....

ripping into a full sheet of 4x8 by one's self is rather problematic, and prone to errors...

use the guide made of plywood with a good blade...

I just got done ripping up about 40 sheets of plywood for a rather involved wine display cabinet and used my cutoff guide for everything..there was no way in hell I was going to try and get 3 15 7/8" rips out of a sheet of $100 cherry ply with my table saw...nor was I brave enough to pre-rip the pieces I needed @ 22.5", then trim them down to size from a half sheet...as it was after the owner decided to add a couple of things all I had left of an order of ~50 sheets was one 15 7/8" rip...

the work came out quite good...as good as with a tablesaw...

btw...my experience has indicated that Oldham blades suck a$$...get a Freud....

[Glen Blanchard]

I agree with all that has been posted. I'll add one thing. Be sure your next blade is a carbide blade - it will stay sharp much longer. How long have you been using the blade in the photo? Might it be dull (after all, it's a steel blade....no carbide).

[Myk Rian]

Panel saw.

[Chuck Saunders]

Do what works best for you. There is no reason not to use the circular saw and guide if the guide is long enough to rip the sheet. On the other hand, there is no reason you can't rip a sheet of plywood on the tablesaw. When I was stupid(young in college) we would freehand rip plywood on the tablesaw with no facemask or goggles/glasses. I would not recommend that:). About the only recommendation I have is to move away from the plywood blade and get a 30-40 tooth carbide blade. You will be happy in no time.

[Julie Rose]

.... Lay it on me thick, where can I improve the most here? ...
Aaron.





Here's the problem:

"I'm dead set on doing this on my table saw."


~Julie~

[phil harold]

Here's the problem:

"I'm dead set on doing this on my table saw."


~Julie~His problem is the blade
the same type of blade in a skill saw wood only last so many feet and be harder to push
better he had a 40 or 80 tooth carbide blade

I have not used a non carbide blade in 20 years...

[Mike Circo]

Others have handled the Table saw vs. Circ saw argument, I'll try and handle the blade issue.

You've already dumped the blade... good. Despite it's label, that is, in my estimation, a poor blade for ply. With 200 teeth, there is almost no gullets for sawdust/chip removal. Plywood sawdust contains a lot of the glue used int the bindings and seems "thicker" than regular dry wood dust. The sawdust is probably packing into the tiny gullets, has no where to go and is contributing to binding. Further, there seems to be nearly no set to those teeth meaning that the saw kerf is so narrow that the blade body is right against the wood as you cut making 100% accurate feed critical. Combined with poor sawdust removal, you are probably creating a wedge of sawdust between the blade body and kerf side.

I've never used a blade labeled "plywood". A high quality, SHARP, carbide tooth blade with 40 teeth and up, used correctly gives excellent cut quality on a WELL TUNED table saw.

Turn the blade into a clock and put it on the wall. Buy a Forest WWII or Freud blade. Rough cut first with a circular saw for safety and ease, then final cut with the table saw.

[Aaron Berk]

I'm going to read through the posts and provide any further information as a response to individual comments.

Thanks for checking this out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1iuCshio4

[Prashun Patel]

It's all been said, but here's my 2c:

1) Use a 50 or 40t general purpose blade.
2) Rough cut the sheet to 1" wider than necessary with a circ saw (even free hand it if you don't want to set up a guide) then clean up the rip on yr tsaw. You'll have more control; less mass to push means less chance of misalignment and kickback.
3) Double/triple check your alignment. If properly aligned, you should be able to do that op with ANY saw.
4) I know he's on the outfeed side, but please get your kid away from the saw when the motor's on. My son's round the same age, and I've trained him to stay out of the room when the motor's on.

[Fred Hargis]

That sounds somewhat like a direct drive saw, which might be part of the problem. But I'm thinking the blade is just as much (or more) of an issue. Try it with a carbide tipped 40 tooth or more blade...if that is a direct drive saw, you might want a thin kerf model (and put a more powerful saw on the shopping list).

[Larry Fox]

You said brutally honest;

1) Get the kid out of the shop when the saw is on.
2) Get yourself a left extension wing. I see you have some support there with the horse but I think an extension wing will be a very good addition.
3) Throw that blade away.
4) The next blade you put on, raise it a bit more.
5) Check to see that your fence is toed (spelling?) out a bit at the back.
6) Use a splitter.
7) While not related to the cut you are trying to make on the saw, your blade storage rack is somewhat terrifying. I would store them flat as opposed to sticking out at an angle like that. If you bent over to grab something or (worse) tripped into them that could be bad. I don't know how high it is off the floor. I also don't like to store sharp things like that up high in case the fell (back to the little guy in the shop).
8) Cut the sheets to rough size using a circ saw and finish up on the TS.

[Alan Zenreich]

I strongly agree with Larry's #1 point.

During your video, I barely noticed the cutting process, as my eyes were glued on watching your boy moving around. If you don't mind my saying, that's where your eyes should have been when the saw was turned on.

Showing kids the workings of a shop is a fine thing, but having them around when a piece of wood could go flying, or worse, is looking for trouble. His ear protection was a good start, but that was covering the very least of the potential problems.

Please take this post in the spirit in which it's intended... one father to another.

[Frank Drew]

Aaron,

You answered it yourself -- you were using the wrong blade for the work. But the saw kept cutting so it's not like the blade was totally unsuited for the job; the saw lagged a bit but didn't bog down or trip any circuit breakers. Use a better blade and you'll be fine.

I'm curious why you were making a video of yourself cutting a sheet of ply in the first place, but more importantly, I think it's a bad practice to have small kids moving all around in the vicinity of equipment in operation, in your line of sight (or, maybe worse, out of sight and who knows where; kickbacks happen, kids turn on things they shouldn't, what if he saw a spider and shrieked while you were in the middle of the cut, etc.) So you had at least three things going on and occupying your mind: You were making a slightly difficult cut given your tooling; you had a small child in there with you, climbing all over; and at least part of your conscious mind was aware that the tape was rolling, that you were addressing some future viewing audience. Too much distraction, IMO.

[I noticed others had raised some of the same points while I was posting, so sorry if I seemed to be piling on.]

[And there's nothing wrong with using a table saw for this kind of cut, but a sheet of ply is heavy so takes extra care to ensure that it's both moving forward and keeping close contact with the fence.]

[Clifford Mescher]

Well, a steel blade with 200 teeth is not ideal for ripping, what looked like 3/4" plywood. I would not use it for anything over 1/8" thick material. Actually, I would not own one.
The problem is all those teetth does not promote proper chip clearing. Being steel, the blade will get hot and that is why you have burn marks all the way through. Carbide, 40 or 50 teeth with deep gullets will give good clearance on the sides and the blade will stay cooler.
The big advantage of carbide is the side clearance and the fact that carbide takes alot to over-heat. Clifford.

[David DeCristoforo]

Have to agree about the blade. That blade is a joke. Get something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/CMT-210-080-10-Tooth-Melamine-Miter/dp/B000P4JP9S

Also, while your saw looks to be fitted with a "decent" fence, hold downs and guard, the saw itself leaves a lot to be desired. If you are going to be doing this as a "regular thing", I would seriously consider upgrading your TS. FWIW, (please...this is simply my own personal opinion) if you have a good TS, properly "tuned" and fitted with the "right" blade, it would be absurd to choose a hand held CS as the tool of choice for breaking down sheet stock. Cabinetmakers have been cutting sheets on the TS forever. Of course, a panel saw would be the obvious choice, cost and space being no object. But barring that, the TS is the "right tool for the job".

[Prashun Patel]

I noticed a couple more things:

1) Keep yr breaker panel door closed. Why in the world is it open in a room where a climby boy (I got one too) can get into it and play with all those 'neat switches'
2) You definitely need a splitter. You can make a pop in one for your ZCI that'll be fine for the job.
3) If you're gonna let yr son be around when cutting (again, I wouldn't), then at least don't let him touch the wood while it's being fed past the blade without a splitter. All it takes is little bit of torque to get the cut off to close the kerf, touch the back of the blade and become a projectile.
4) Use a push stick or block not yr hands.

[Mike Gager]

after watching the video ill say it again


1. get a splitter

2. make sure your fence is aligned with the blade

[John Thompson]

Way too many teeth... improper support at the front of the saw as your hands are flexing the ply as you attempt to force it through the blade. The sligthtest flex can move the sheet away from the fence and you have all the ingredients for kick-back. The stock has to stay firm to the fence.

I cut my full ply down with a circular and guide to workable sizes as suggested. If you do a lot of sheets and insist on not taking them down to size you need a panel saw or slider. There is a tremendous amount of friction using full support on a TS to do sheets. The friction is another ingredient that can cause the stock to come off the fence and bind in the blade as it is very difficult to handle the weight and friction single handed.

Please get your kids out of the shop when you are actually cutting. They can be distractive and that alone can lead to problems. Or.. if you have ever taken a gut shot with ply during a kick-back as some of us have.. you know stock can be hurled in any dirction if it rides up and over the blade as you have no crown gaurd on that saw nor feather left to help counter the un-predictalbe movement it can take.

Good luck and IMO.. reconsider how you approach the task.

Sarge..

[Rod Sheridan]

It may be my poor old eyesight, however was that a sheet of melamine coated particle board you were cutting?

You need a blade designed for the material you are cutting. Go to your local saw shop if there's one near your town. Industrial blades are better quality and less money than consumer branded blades.

Put a splitter on the saw.

Keep your kids out of the shop.

If you're going to use a table saw to process entire sheets, buy a cabinet saw, fit it with outfeed and infeed tables, or buy a slider, they're meant for panel processing.

Once you get a better saw, and the correct blade, it may still be easier to rough out pieces using a circular saw.

Unless I really need to run a full sheet through my saw, I break it down at the sawmill. The guys are always happy to rip a sheet in half for me, or cross cut it in half, or whatever I need to give me some pieces just larger than finished dimensions.

I'm too old to be horsing a full sheet around, at some point smarts have to take over from testosterone.

Regards, Rod.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Why are you dead set on using your table saw? It's too small. Get a good guide and use your circular saw, with a good blade.

To be really really redundant, toss that POS blade. ANY carbide is better.

Kids should be away. I have a girl that plays with EVERYTHING in my garage. Need to keep an eye on them. Like to turn switches.....

[Chris Padilla]

LOL....

I always find it amusing that when folks post pics or videos that comments about things other than the main topic always crop up. Sometimes it is in jest, sometimes the thread takes off on a tangent you never expected. :)

(1) Kid(s) in the shop: I think it is FINE that you have your boy in there helping out Dad. My daughter loves this. As long as you teach them what they need to know to be safe and TRULY helpful, kudos to you. I grew up being an "outfeed table" for my father as he churned out many wonderful things on his little Craftsman contractor's saw....

(2) Open Breaker Door: Yeah, that should be closed but I'm not sure how one hurts themselves, even a kid, turning breaker switches off and on.... I'm sure he could open the door even if it was closed anyway.

We all go to certain lengths to protect our kids but sometimes they need to be out EXPERIENCING life and learning, too, and sometimes learning physically hurts. :)

Other than that, everyone else has you covered on the main topic of the thread but let me add this:

Cutting a large plywood sheet may always be subject to burning because it isn't always easy to keep the sheet pressed up consistently against the fence. Anytime during the cut that you stop, you are creating a situation in which burning can occur because the blade is hitting the same spot many, many times and it will heat up very quickly.

[Stephen Tashiro]

To see what's going on, you should also post a shot with the camera at a higher angle. A bird's eye view would be best. A shot from the angle that you chose might be useful for seeing whether you had the sawhorse or support set so the edge of the plywood didn't droop, but I can't see that.

People debate whether one should use an auxiliary fence when ripping boards. I don't know if this would help with plywood or whether you used one.

[John M Bailey]

When cutting a full sheet of plywood, you will notice that you are being forced to change positions on the sheet and therefore push from different angles. This causes your sheet to feed to shift slightly. There is simply no way for a person to feed a large sheet of plywood from the side and then the middle and make it feed perfectly straight.
This is why most every body will say you need to cut the sheet down to size then use the tablesaw. You will be able to feed the plywood at a constant rate and angle by not shifting your grip.
Better blade.
If you upgrade to a large cabinet saw and support the sheet fully you would be able to make this cut in a full sheet easily.

[Gary McKown]

Much has been said, but I would NEVER do the following, either:

1) wear gloves while working with stationary power tools.
2) complete a sheet cut by pushing on both sides of the blade, which is asking for a slight skew, plus aligning the body behind the blade.
3) have the narrowest piece between the blade and fence.
4) rip a full sheet without rigidly attached outfeed and side tables.
5) use a job site saw for this operation.

[Phil Phelps]

...learn to cut a full sheet without stopping. Every time you stop, the blade will leave it's mark.

[Lee Schierer]

Most of the safety aspects have been covered so I won't...

Your burn marks are caused by poor saw alignment. Saws don't come well aligned fromteh factory. You need to align your saw by aligning the blade to the miter slot and the fence to the miter slot so the fence is exactly parallel or toes slightly (.005" max) away from the miter slot.

With regard to your blade. As others have said make that blade into a clock. I have cut lots of plywood with this blade, chip and tear out free. Freud LU81M (http://www.freudtools.com/p-28-heavy-duty-multi-purposebr-nbsp.aspx) Rocklers has them for less than $40. It is a good blade and will last for a long long time.

Also that plywood you were cutting had a surface layer of melamine, which probably dulled your 200 tooth blade in the first 24" of cut. After the cut, your son was running his hands along the cut line. The edges can be like a serrated knife so please caution him not to run his hands on the parts to brush off the sawdust.

[Jason Beam]

LOL....

I always find it amusing that when folks post pics or videos that comments about things other than the main topic always crop up. Sometimes it is in jest, sometimes the thread takes off on a tangent you never expected. :)

(1) Kid(s) in the shop: I think it is FINE that you have your boy in there helping out Dad. My daughter loves this. As long as you teach them what they need to know to be safe and TRULY helpful, kudos to you. I grew up being an "outfeed table" for my father as he churned out many wonderful things on his little Craftsman contractor's saw....

(2) Open Breaker Door: Yeah, that should be closed but I'm not sure how one hurts themselves, even a kid, turning breaker switches off and on.... I'm sure he could open the door even if it was closed anyway.

We all go to certain lengths to protect our kids but sometimes they need to be out EXPERIENCING life and learning, too, and sometimes learning physically hurts. :)

Other than that, everyone else has you covered on the main topic of the thread but let me add this:

Cutting a large plywood sheet may always be subject to burning because it isn't always easy to keep the sheet pressed up consistently against the fence. Anytime during the cut that you stop, you are creating a situation in which burning can occur because the blade is hitting the same spot many, many times and it will heat up very quickly.

FINALLY someone said it. Thank you, Chris. Let the dang kids in the shop. Inform them how to behave. There is absolutely nothing wrong with kids in the shop - in fact, there's lots of things wrong with banning them from the shop. Teach your kids right and you shouldn't have to worry so much about them futzing with stuff. He probably should be told to stay in one place while you're concentrating on a cut, though - just so he doesn't inadvertently cause a chain of disasterous events. Helping has got to be a great feeling for him.

A splitter was about the only thing I have issue with, Aaron. I like the overarm guard and the board buddies help quite a lot with the feed. You've got most of your safety issues covered, though. Moreso than many of us care to admit, I'll bet.

You've already identified the main problem - that blade is feces. I'd wager that your burning was more the fault of that blade than saw alignment - but if you have any issues with other blades burning, DO check into alignment. It's really obvious to me that the blade is your problem. A nice combination blade works great on most plywoods, I've found. With a ZCI, the tearout is usually minimal as long as the blade's sharp and clean.

Brutal honesty? Don't ever force anything - i don't think I'd have tried to finish that cut if it was as hard to push through as it looked. If something don't feel right STOP and shut that saw down right away. This is where cutting a sheet gets tough - it's hard to reach the switch when yer 6' away from the front of the saw.

[Aaron Berk]

The saw is a 113. series Craftsman with 1hp, up graded machined pulleys, and a link twist belt.

The house breaker tripped an inch before I finished the cut.

The plywood is nothing more than 3/4 sanded birch ply.

I'm currently saving up funds for a cabinet saw (G0605X)

My son has a specific stool that he's allowed on when I'm at the table saw.

Thanks for the blade recommendations, something I REALLY needed.

I'll post again when I get some more time tonight.
Thanks for all your comments folks, I appreciate it immensely.
If there's more, bring it on:)

Aaron

[Myk Rian]

The house breaker tripped an inch before I finished the cut.
If there's more, bring it on:)

Aaron
Install a 220 panel for the garage.

[Ray Dockrey]

I agree with all that is stated. The child in the shop is okay as long as they are out of the way. Where your child was if something went terribly wrong they would be in trouble.

Second, I don't ever turn my back on a running piece of equipment especially with someone in the shop. You are in such close quarters I kept waiting for you to bump the wood or back into it with the saw running.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Here's my .02:

-- having kids in the shop is fine, I'm sure you had the talk with him

--the blade height looks good too, no more than 1/4" should protrude through wood.

--your technique looks fine

--the advice on the blade is solid. That's your main problem. Get rid of it. I use a Forrest WWII Thin Kerf. There are others that work well too.

--no need for a splitter on plywood. That's more for preventing case hardened solid wood from pinching your blade.


--There might be a problem with your blade and/or fence alignment. Some money spent on some devices to aid you on this task is money well spent. I'll send you over to Jerry Cole's website. http://www.in-lineindustries.com/products.html I recommend getting some PALS, the performance package and the A-line it jig. You can have your current saw so finely tuned that you won't ever look to upgrade. And contractors saws are way more easier to align. An easy way to tell if your saw is out of alignment is look at the workpiece you just ripped cut, the part that was between the blade and fence: If you see any saw blade marks on the work piece, they should be full half circles (Like a full rainbow shape) If you see marks that resemble a half rainbow, either your fence or blade (or both) are out of alignment.

[Byron Trantham]

I have a well equipped Unisaw and wouldn't consider trying to cut a 4x8 sheet of plywood BY MY SELF! I don't have help so its me and the tools. I rip all my sheet goods down with a circular saw and then final cut them on the table saw. Much safer.

Make a clock out the 100 tooth blade you have and buy a good carbide tipped one. Also buy a carbide tipped one for your circular saw also! :D

[Dan Gonzales]

You are getting a lot of good information on the thread regarding adjusting your saw, blade choice and safety with your son.

Regarding the blade: as a 200 tooth non-carbide blade I bet it's heating up, expanding and twisting. The amount of saw dust not clearing out and the narrower clearance between the blade body and teeth has to be creating a lot of friction. With an appropriate blade your saw should do fine.

I used to have the kids in my shop when I thought it was safe until I realized most thing go flying right about their head level. If there are power tools involved I would wait till he's a little bigger. But how I remember being an outfeed table for my Dad to many times to count too. For me I just thought how I would never be able to justify to myself or anyone else why I thought it was safe knowing what grave injuries can occur with all those sharp power tools spinning.

Cheers,

Dan G
Whittier, CA

[Kevin Hartnett]

That blade is a finish blade for making smooooth cuts on plywood pieces cut to nearly finish size. You need to use a 40-tooth carbide combo or rip blade to cut the sheet stock. Any twist of the sheet compared to the blade surface will bog any blade down and will cause that 200 tpi blade to stall completely, probably leaving burn marks.

Kevin H.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

say four hail Mary's now go and sin no more.

[Dan West02]

What scared me more than anything was seeing the boy right in front of the saw. Sure he had on hearing protection, but if something had gone wrong and pieces started flying, that would not have done him much good.

I know that a kick back throws back toward the operator, but the way you are straining to push that panel through, anything could have happened. If you want to be stubborn and cut it on the table saw at least think about safety.

[Guy Belleman]

-Crummy blade, enough said about that.

-I had a smaller saw like yours once. No matter how much time I spent aligning the blade and fence, the fence would flex just the tiniest bit during this type of operation. Getting a cabinet saw removed that problem.

-A riving knife or splitter will promote safety and help with any binding. A G0605 might not be the best saw for you. There are several other very good choices at the same company you mentioned for saws that have riving knifes built in, which is the new standard. You could also add a splitter, but why not buy it with a riving knife in the first place? Although you may want a 12"-5HP saw, it may not be what you really need, a 10"-3HP may suit your needs well, and it might have a riving knife and all of the side/outfeed tables you do need. That 5HP may even require a larger circuit breaker than the 3HP, and what you have available.

-Standing anywhere in line with the spinning blade is bad practice. That means it takes two people to safely cut the sheet, one on each piece, and probably one that is bigger/stronger than the lad. Unless you have a panel saw, of course. Yes, I have cut a many plywood sheets by myself on the tablesaw, but as the cut is made towards the end, it gets difficult to keep out harms way and still keep the pieces proceeding absolutely straight. Some days, my comfort level is just low, so I just cut down the pieces with a skill saw, and then retrim to size on the tablesaw. Sometimes, if I am in good standing, I ask the woman who reigns in the house to assist.

-Take a basic skills class, or any classes, at a local Woodcraft, Rockler, or whatever is available. I learned to cut wood from my father, and I loved the dickens out being able to help. But even 30 years later, I learn, or relearn, one or two tips in every class I take. Often these are very good tips. In my view, each tip learned, safety or otherwise, pays for every course many times over, not just for me, but everyone around. Check on the age limits, maybe that lad could even attend with you. My boy was about that age when he made his first pen on the lathe.

Good luck.

[Jon Grider]

I'll throw my two cents in here, The blade is the main problem as many have pointed out, take their advice and get a 40 T carbide combo. Your saw may not be ideal for ripping full sheets of ply, but where there's a will there's a way. I'll bet many here who told you to upgrade equipment have 'made do' with what they had until they were in a position to get the saw of their dreams.I ripped 4x8 sheets of plywood for many years on a Craftsman radial arm saw with perfectly acceptable results until I could afford a cab saw. Once you have the proper blade,build a table to support the plywood on the left side of the saw and in the back too.From the video, it looks like you were very conscious of keeping the stock against the fence, and that's a good thing, but you don't want to push sideways too hard once the cut is partway through or you risk binding the blade and burning the stock. It is not real easy to rip a full sheet by yourself, but it is very possible; I do it all the time. Getting the right blade and supporting the plywood along with proper technique should get rid of those burns and stop the motor from bogging down so much. Your saw is underpowered, but by finding the right feed rate, it should do the job, just a little slower than a 5 HP cabinet saw.

[Karl Brogger]

I don't know if this has been covered or not, but do not wear gloves. Getting a hand free of the blade is pretty simple when it is just flesh.

[Peter Quinn]

Brutal? The saw is crap. I don't care what blade you put in that thing, its an anchor for a dingy or a canoe. My dad has that same saw and I told him the same thing. That blade is crap too that Oldham should be embarrassed to make and sell in this day and age. Replace both if you want to rip full sheets of plywood. It is beyond the machines intended purpose and capability.

If you don't have the resources to do that presently put that skill saw to good use and move on. I have better results with my OLD 8" makita bench top job site saw, and WAY better results with a PM 66. Looks like you have good support on the left side and out feed, just not enough UMPH in that machine. I'm not fond of your body position in the middle of the sheet, but each guy has his own method and stance. I stay left of center and push towards the fence through out the cut, one hand reaches right at the end to push it through.

PS: Not much danger of kicking back a full sheet on a saw like that, but throw it through a cabinet saw the wrong way and you will get it in the teeth. DAMHIK. Of course push it through correctly and it will fly like butter.

Kudos to your having your son in the shop. Last I knew kick backs came BACK. Your son is in a perfect place to watch, learn, and enjoy time with his dad. Even if you burn every sheet you ever rip there is great value in the experience. And who cares if your panel breaker door is open or closed? At least its on!

[Chris Barnett]

1. Hope you have taught the boy about shop tools, but wonder since he is directly in harms way directly behind the saw.

2. Get a decent carbide rip blade (30-40 tooth) for breakdown...you were having to force the work. And for finish cuts, a 60 tooth carbide will do everything a 200 tooth will do, but will do it properly and cleanly and a better match to your saw motor.

3. Re-read #1.

4. Make sure you have a decent splitter and use it.

5. Leave the attitude outside the shop...it can get you injured.

6. Your TS will do the job, if you plan and approach the task properly.

7. Re-read #5.

[Aaron Berk]

Ok I picked up a 50 tooth combo carbide thin kerf hollow grind blade today. That should solve some issues.

Still working on the funding for a better saw.

Blade storage rack is mounted above a chest type freezer, and at shoulder level for me, I'm 5 10. so its out of my kids domain. He knows better anyway.

Breaker box is a moot point, nothing to do with the situation.

My standing position during the process, room for improvement here!
I think my saw will bog before any kickback, and with that particular rip cut I had to use so much force that standing off to the left of blade was not possible. With new blade and new saw I'll be conscious to stay to the left.

My son in the shop, also a moot point. But I can address this.
We home school our kids and take great care to keep them out of harms way and teach them the proper way to do things. The camera angle doesn't show it well, but my son was on the far right of the sheet, not in line with anything. And if I step on some toes here I'm sorry, but....... I think my son could get hurt or killed just as easily if not easier at a school than in my shop under my direct supervision.

Some one mentioned attitude, not sure why. Woodworking is a relaxer for me, what I said about the blade reflected nothing about my attitude.

Ummm.... Saw alignment good one. I've got 4 home made alignment "PALS" on my trunnion bolts (which were upgraded to grade 8 and lengthend") and they help allot, but I still seam to fight with blade to miter alignment. I use a dial indicater mounted to my incra miter gauge to adjust blade alignment. I also RARELY tilt the blade for fear of knocking it out of wack.
My fence is a CRAPsman alignarip xrc which I can't stand, I fight this one too. I'm 2 days away from putting a sub fence on it because I belive the fence is dished in, in the middle. I plan on an incra fence when I get the new saw.

Speaking of new saw....
New saw with more power will require much more care on technique on my part. I'm very used to my current saw being under powered. Need to work on this one. I think with a riving knife, better blade, straight fence, and better work support (ie left side wing) I'll be able to maintain good form when riping.

Gloves.... mixed emotions here. I wear the 3 finger type that fit tight and velcro on the wrist. I feel I get improved stock control with these. I would think a loose apron would have been a bigger issue. Which by the way I don't know if you caught it in the video but my apron string caught on my feed roller while moving through the cut.



Ok let me know if I missed one, I'm here to learn.
Aaron;)

[Shawn Christ]

Lots of advice here. Some good; some unfortunately a little more brutal than necessary.

Regarding your son, again, kudos for having him there with you. I have two boys who love to spend time with me in my shop too. My rules are 1) eye protection, 2) ear protection, and 3) stand off to the side when I'm cutting. But I'm probably a little more paranoid than I need to be with #3. After all, I was my dad's outfeed support when growing up, and I ended up fine!

Regarding the saw, I thought your support was perfectly adequate for that sheet of plywood. From what I can tell, you have enough surface area there to rival many cabinet saws. Technique looked fine too other than having to force the workpiece through the cut - that made me nervous as you were leaning over the blade. I think you were right, the blade was the primary culprit.

Don't let others make you feel like your saw is worthless. Many of us wisely buy what our wallets and present circumstances allow. I can tell you spent a lot of time setting your saw up that way. And a nice setup it is. I have an underpowered Ryobi BT3100-1 that is no better than your saw (maybe worse). But it's the most my lovely wife could afford at the time and I was pleased as hell when I received it! I use a decent combo blade and Freud rip blade (both thin kerf carbide), which helps tremendously. And I keep 'em sharp. Listen when cutting - your saw will tell you when you are moving too fast for the motor. For me, I need to slow down on very hard woods and stock thicker than 4/4. Whenever I slow down, it's inevitable that I get at least some burn, but not to that extent.

Generally, with my small shop and lack of a support setup like yours, I opt to break down a 4x8 sheet into at least 2 parts with a circular saw before I run it through my table saw. I often chalk a line because it's quicker than clamping a guide board.

Best of luck with your hobby. I'm sure your family will love all the things you create for them. Happy woodworking!

[michael osadchuk]

Aaron,

Ditto the many comments about the blade being the incorrect one (instead of carbide toothed blade).... part of the binding maybe for the reasons Matt gave (too shallow a cutting angle, etc.) and others mentioning possible overheating and distortion of the blade....

.... one of the things I notice in replaying the video is that you moved your left hand away from the long side of the sheet - which was guiding the sheet against the fence - after barely a quarter or a third of the sheet had gone thru the blade. At that point you placed both your hands on the short rear edge of the sheet, likely significantly reducing the side pressure keeping the sheet against the fence.... when you resumed pushing the sheet from this new position, the sound of saw changed, perhaps indicating significant binding kicking in........ I would not shift both my hands to the rear short edge of board until the last third or quarter of sheet was about to encounter the blade, reducing the chance of the fence acting as a fulcrum or pivot point on the sheet.....

the yellow 'board buddies' are great and I've used them also.... from freezing the video after the cut it appears these guides are mounted exactly perpendicular to fence which should be 'ok' because the downwardly 'angled' slant of the wheel do impart pressure on the workpiece keeping it against the fence.... but you can increase this pressure against the fence by 'toeing in' the board buddies a bit toward the rear of the fence, instead of mounting them perpendicular to the fence, in the same way power feeder rollers are slanted a bit toward the fence on shapers.....

.....I join the minority view on splitters in this case; I don't think its absence is relevant as plywood has no internal stresses that are relieved after sawn, leading to possible pinching/closing of the cut as may happen in solid wood.....
......worse, a splitter, if sized for a normal full kerf carbide blade, were used in this situation with a thinner non-carbide blade, could have become the source of additional binding as the thin kerf cut in wood encountered a "too thick" splitter.....

.....Aaron, you are a great sport to subject yourself, with humility and no subsequent protest, to our various advices......

good luck

michael

[Vince Shriver]

.....Aaron, you are a great sport to subject yourself, with humility and no subsequent protest, to our various advices......

good luck

michael


I agree with Michael. I would only add, continue to think carefully before you turn that switch. A sign next to my table saw: "start with 10, finish with 10" All the best, Vince

[Rick Potter]

Aaron,

Not gonna beat a dead horse on the blade.

It looked to me like you were wiggling the sheet around while changing position. That and the fence being not square would put the burn marks on the wood also, although I think the blade was also dull by the time you made the cut. There is hardly any set on the teeth of this kind of blade, and they heat up rapidly.

I agree that the saw, properly set should make this cut easily, after all it's only 3/4" thick. It's not like you are ripping 3" oak.

Last thing. I like the way you tried to support the work as it went through with various things, but as someone said earlier, the sawhorse may very well move around on you. If you have the room I suggest making a saw table off to the left of the saw, and a moveable outfeed table, that is sturdy and stays put. I have seen the most basic of saws mounted in a table that surrounds them on three sides, and they were sweet.

Rick Potter

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Nice overhead guard you made! Shop Notes, IIRC.
There's a couple of things -which I know from experience - that are hidden that may be causing problems.

#1 is electric power. Are you running an extension cord to the saw? If so, how long and what gauge? I use a 10' 12ga & it makes a world of difference as far as putting the power to the saw under load.

#2 is electric power. Are you using a shop vac to clear dust with that overhead guard? if so, is it plugged into the same circuit? If it is, then you're starving both the saw & the vac.

Been there/done that in both cases.

Re: the kid in the shop.
I respectfully have to disagree w/those that say clear out the kid.
I would pay good money to have my 9 year old grandson pay any sort of attention to what goes on in the shop.
As it is, he's this soft pink blob glued to the brain drains - the TV, the PC and/or the video games.

[Jason White]

That blade is garbage.

Jason


Ok here goes.
I've never had a single lesson on any woodworking.
I've been at it the last 4-6 yrs.
I've got big ambitions, and even bigger dreams.
To top it all off, SWMBO is behind me 110%

So here is the nitty gritty where I need some pointers. I took a video of myself today ripping down a full 4x8 sheet. I'm dead set on doing this on my table saw. I have no desire to set up guides for my circ saw. I do however have a slick guide that my circ saw rides on so as to get a tear out free straight cut with no measuring for off set. But I only use it for cross cutting plywood. When I was making this rip cut today I boged down the saw pretty good, and I think I was feeding to fast for the capacity of my saw. So can I get some coments from the penut gallary as well as the guys up in the box office? Lay it on me thick, where can I improve the most here? I added a pic of the blade I was using, which I'll never use again. I'm in the market for a better plywood blade.

Thanks in advance, now bring it on:cool:
Aaron.




Wouldn't you know it!! You tube is doing maintenance and I can't get at my video. RATS! I'll add it in the morning, need to get to bed any way. SMC is WAY to addictive.

Ok, youtube is up this morning, so here is the vid of me doing my thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1iuCshio4


Add a few things here, the saw is a single horse contractor 113. craftsman series upgraded with machined pulleys and a link twist belt. The wood being cut is nothing more than 3/4 sandleply? (spelling)
What may not be apparent in the video was the breaker tripping, I didn't shut off the saw at the end of the cut.

[Jason White]

Ditto everything that Don said.

Jason


Brutal honesty - cut it in the manner that works best for the equipment you have (which is the CS). Don't try and cut to final dimensions and with a 4 x 8 sheet, give yourself an extra inch of width. Once you have it cut down, it's much easier to handle on the TS in order to get to final dimensions.

In other words - don't rule something out of which you have the means to complete it in a safe manner, even if it takes a few extra minutes. Lastly, I'd dump the 200 tooth blade and get a good quality 40 tooth - it will do perfectly well.

[Myk Rian]

You didn't start the saw with your foot and a bucket like that idiot on Youtube did.
That is a major plus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp-bQQl3FWY

[Mike Circo]

Aaron,

How about a saw replacement/upgrade for $275. Seriously this is a great price and an upgrade from what you have. (Not a Unisaw, but not a Uni price either!) You could sell your current for $75 and upgrade for very little $$

From Craig's list in your area:

http://savannah.craigslist.org/tls/1168576549.html

Enjoy the hobby. It gives me much fulfillment and fun, I hope you enjoy it too and take all the "advice" given here with the positive flavor it was meant.

M

[Glen Blanchard]

Aaron - I'm not too sure about the "attitude" thing. I've got to tell ya man, I think you've got a great attitude. It takes a lot of guts to post on an Internet forum asking for criticism.....and then opening the door for those that are "brutally honest" to boot. Wow. Kudos to you.

[James White]

Aron,

I think it is great that your son is there with you. Just make a rule that he must stay put while the machines are on. Just watching the video he was a distraction to me as he darted around.

Making this cut on a table saw is fine. However if everything is not executed just rite and the saw in tune and capable of the cut. You will need to run it threw again to clean up the cut. This is why I prefer to use a guided circular saw to break down the full sheet first.

This is not a cut for your current set up in my opinion. I had a Delta contractor saw that every time I put a significant load on. I would have to spend an hour getting the saw back in alignment. Not only that but there is no way that your fence is going to stand up to the leverage of a full sheet of 3/4" ply. My recommendation would be to jump on that Craig's list Rigid saw now. As in drop what you are doing. Then if you still want to up grade you can sell it for what you paid for it.

My $.02

James

[Paul Ryan]

Aaron,

How about a saw replacement/upgrade for $275. Seriously this is a great price and an upgrade from what you have. (Not a Unisaw, but not a Uni price either!) You could sell your current for $75 and upgrade for very little $$

From Craig's list in your area:

http://savannah.craigslist.org/tls/1168576549.html

Enjoy the hobby. It gives me much fulfillment and fun, I hope you enjoy it too and take all the "advice" given here with the positive flavor it was meant.

M

This saw Mike has found would solve alot of your problems right away. I wouldn't worry about that big honking grizzly now. Learn some more about your hobby first. This ridgid saw will bring in about what you paid for it in a few years so you are out next to nothing.

I did alot of things like you did during my first years, on second though I still do alot of dumb things. I once tipped over a craftsman saw I was using while ripping a 2x12 in half. It was a little tiny craftsman saw with a cast aluminum table, the table was about 16x20, and it had a 7 1/4 blade in it. When ripping stock it would pinch and stop the blade occasionally. This was probably 5 years ago. Since I have moved on to better tools and have learned alot from all of the great people on this site.

My other advice would be, get rid of the darn gloves. I have personally talked to 2 older guys that are missing digits because of wearing gloves.

I think it is great that your boy is in the shop helping. I can't wait until mine is old enough to be out with me. But I think I would ask him to stay still in a certian location while I am cutting. That is one less distraction you need. You can be the safest wood worker in the world, but distractions and complacency are what cause accidents.

[John Lucas]

....My son has a specific stool that he's allowed on when I'm at the table saw.

Aaron

The problem was then that he wasnt using it.

[Kevin Godshall]

I know every other Creeker has already weighed in, and I'm not posting to simply piggy pile on top, but here's my 2 cents:

A standard sheet of 3/4 weighs about 75 lbs. It is unwieldly at best. Even if everything goes right, you are always on the brink of losing your grip or body position, feeding it just a hair off square into the blade (binding it), or struggling on feed end (at beginning) or outfeed side (on end) to keep 2 heavy pieces from hitting the floor.

If you get half way into the cut and things go awry, you are dead meat. Can't let go of material to turn off saw, probably can't even reach or find the Off switch, no time to yell for help, etc. You are at the mercy of the torque of your saw and whatever it decides to do the with material you are now married to.

Start a post asking for horror stories dealing with table saws and you will quickly re-
think your next attempt at ripping large pieces on the saw.

Measure twice, cut once? How about, Think 10x, do safely 1x, be able to do again another time.

[Larry Fox]

Aron, you are getting a lot of comments on the kid in the shop and I was one that made a comment about it so I kida feel a need to add a clarification to my specific remarks.

I have two young guys and I love for them to be in the shop with me. My personal rule is that they are not allowed to be in there when I am running power tools as I find it distracting to be thinking about where they are / what they are doing. That said, this is MY rule and I get that different people have different rules. That's great - their shop, their kids, their rules.

I think in this particular case that the kid should not be there for the simple reason that you are making a cut that you are already questioning your ability to do properly and are thus "experimenting" with so to speak. This intruduces quite a bit of distraction and uncertainty into the situation.

I agree with others though - takes stones to put yourself out there for critique.

[Chris Padilla]

Gloves.... mixed emotions here. I wear the 3 finger type that fit tight and velcro on the wrist. I feel I get improved stock control with these. I would think a loose apron would have been a bigger issue. Which by the way I don't know if you caught it in the video but my apron string caught on my feed roller while moving through the cut.



Ok let me know if I missed one, I'm here to learn.
Aaron;)

I think gloves are fine...especially snug ones. If you're cutting a "decent distance" from the blade, even baggy ones are likely fine. If they make you feel like you have better control over the wood, go for it.

Nice on the apron string...no one caught that and bashed you over the head for it! LOL.... :D

I'm new to wearing aprons but I love them. I have the Festool one and it has more strap/belts than strings and they all click together with those plastic quick connector thingies so nothing to get loose....

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I agree with everyone here that says it takes extreme guts to post this thread. Takes more guts than I have.

That being said, I really really think you should rip that sheet down with a circular saw and good guide, as mentioned before. With a good blade/guide/saw, you can even cut it to near final dimensions and joint it to your final. You should joint after cutting on a TS anyways...... Managing a 35 pound panel is MUCH easire than 75.

I just keep thinking on that first post where you are dead set on using the TS to rip the panel. Why punish yourself?

[Don Abele]

Aaron, I'll start with echoing a few things...the biggest that I agree with is you asking for brutal honesty and then taking it all VERY well. It takes a big man to ask for help, even bigger to ask for brutal honesty. Kudos to you.

I too was dead set on ripping ply (and recently melamine) on my Jet cabinet saw. But I saw the light (or actually the pain in the lower back) and decided it wasn't the best course of action. If you're only going to do this occasionally, it might be OK. But eventually all the balancing and man-handling is going to take it's toll on you. I bought an EZ system and absolutely love it (gloat and review will be coming soon). But you don't need that - just use your circular saw and break the sheet down into something more manageable. And that applies even if you get a better saw.

For the longest time I had a saw just like yours. Realizing I needed to upgrade it, I built 4x4 table with the saw set 1 foot in from the front and 1 foot in from the left edge. This gave me an infeed and outfeed table along with left and right support. Worked great. I also added a Vega fence. I did this because at the time there were no "cheap" upgrades available from that little Craftsman tabletop. I used that saw that way for many, many years and produced a lot of nice pieces. So your's can be salvaged, but that CL Rigid is a "cheap" upgrade and you'll notice a dramatic difference with using it. And in a year or two when you hone your skills and out grow it, you can easliy recoup much of it's cost to apply towards a cabinet saw.

Lastly, the son...again kudos to you for having him in there. My four year is glued to me when he knows Daddy is heading for the shop. He's my "little workshop helper". My PPE (personal protective equipment) is right at the door. He grabs his eye and hearing pro before he even steps out of the door way. Then up on the computer stool. Before I start any tools I look to him and he gives me a thumbs up! He knows if he moves while the tools are running he's out of the shop for the rest of the day. It only took a couple of "evictions" for him to really understand. When I'm laying something out or working with hand tools, he's right with me. The only additional caution is that I installed a dead bolt on the door and it's locked anytime I'm not in the shop to stop him from being curious and going in by himself. I also have the entire shop wired to a subpanel that gets cut off (and locked) when I leave.

Again, congrats on taking the hits so gracefully.

Be well,

Doc

[Neal Clayton]

don't know if someone else said it but you never push on the left side of the blade. you're binding the blade that way. and being a crappy blade that's way underpowered, it probably binds easily.

[Karl Brogger]

don't know if someone else said it but you never push on the left side of the blade. you're binding the blade that way. and being a crappy blade that's way underpowered, it probably binds easily.


huh? If he was pushing in front of the blade, then yeah I agree. But if you're behind the blade you always push towards the fence first, then worry about forward. If you do that you don't need those gimicky rollers on the fence.