Why not have tool-free arbor nuts?

[Kev Godwin]

I remember back before keyless chucks were available on our drills and we always had to take the extra time to change bits. Now most drills only require our hands. Even my recip saw and jig saw are toolless, etc.

Why haven't manufacturers of table saws come up with a method of toolless changing of saw blades? It seems to me that would be a step up in features. I know I prefer to cut wood, not spend time changing blades. Yes I know, it takes little time anyway but it didn't take much time to change a bit in a keyed chuck either but the manufacturers invented a better mousetrap anyway.

Comments? Or is there such an invention and I missed it?
Kev

[Chris Gombola]

Once the blade starts spinning that torque tightens the arbor nut quite a bit more than you did when you fastened it in the first place. Seems to me you'd need a wrench with some leverage to break it free.

[Chuck Saunders]

Grabbing the arbor nut and goosing the saw sounds bad to me, and my TS is not reversible. My PC 325MAG circular saw does have a tools free arbor nut. There would need to be some thought to get it to work for regular and dado blades though.

[Greg Crawford]

Kev,

Invent it and make some money!

[fRED mCnEILL]

I've solved most of the arbor nut problem on my saw. My solution is to use a Forrest blade for EVERYTHING (wood, that is). Cuts down on 90% of the need to change blades.

Fred Mc.

[Paul Ryan]

The throat plate on the new SS saw is really nice. There is a locking ring that locks the insert down. It is totally tooless, so that saves 1 tool needed to change the blade. Personally I don't mind the 2 wrenches, they hang right on the side of the cabinet and it only takes a second to loosen the arbor nut with 2 wrenches.

[Jerry Bruette]

Metabo makes a four and a half inch grinder that has a tool less nut. But if a saw arbor was made the same way I think it would add to the cost of the saw. Also I don't think you'd be able to get your hands onto the nut to get it off.

Jerry

[Peter Quinn]

Have you tried holding the nut and turning the saw on? That would be tool less, and a bit nuts too.:D Bits and drivers spin loose on my cordless drill all the time. I need a higher level of assurance on my TS. My jig saw and sazall are toolless but work on a very different principle all together, and should a blade come loose, very little harm is done. Not sure how to make a fail safe tightening system for a variety of plate thicknesses (thin kerf, full kerf, dado, molding head, etc) that may be spun on a TS arbor. Can this be done? My instinct is that some gimmicky company like Sears would have included this on something at some point if it were workable.

My DP chuck still uses a key, as do all of my larger drills. Perhaps a variation on the Fein Multimaster head could work on a TS arbor?

[Kev Godwin]

Kev,

Invent it and make some money!

Greg,
I would if I could, instead I posted a question. I guess I wasn't thinking of just an arbor nut to hold a blade or dado stack.

Perhaps a hand turned reverse helix handscrew on a long arbor?
Perhaps a snap-on bushing with adequate friction against the side of the blade?
Maybe a threaded mechanism similar to how Freud adjusts their newer dado set?

Clearly nobody would attempt to hold onto a standard arbor nut and goose the motor to tighten a nut like we do with our drill chucks. I know I sure wouldn't want to be called "Lefty" - if I lived.:eek:

It just seems with all the advancements in technology such as SawStop or riving knives that some manufacturer(s) would come up with a solution.
Kev

[tim rowledge]

Someone already beat you to it -
http://www.format-4.ca/ca-us/products/format-sliding-table-saws/kappa-550-x-motion.html?felder-group=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.felder-group.ca%2Fproducts.php%3Fback_url%3Dhttp%253A%252 F%252Fwww.felder-canada.ca%252F

Of course, it'll cost you...

[Aaron Berk]

Someone already beat you to it -
http://www.format-4.ca/ca-us/products/format-sliding-table-saws/kappa-550-x-motion.html?felder-group=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.felder-group.ca%2Fproducts.php%3Fback_url%3Dhttp%253A%252 F%252Fwww.felder-canada.ca%252F

Of course, it'll cost you...



OOOO, AAAA!!!
I want one of those:D

[Larry Edgerton]

Tools are being developed with this very kind of crap all of the time. Its marketing to attract homeowners who are gimmick happy, like to tell their neighbors that their X has Y.

It violates the KISS principle, adds no value to the tool, and usually adds to the cost, complexity, and detracts from the reliability. Keyless chucks are great if they are of good quality, but as far as not needing a wrench to change a saw blade, come on, exactly how often do you change blades, and how can it be faster than a wrench anyway. I suggest they spend that money on better bearings instead.....

[John Callahan]

It violates the KISS principle, adds no value to the tool, and usually adds to the cost, complexity, and detracts from the reliability. Keyless chucks are great if they are of good quality, but as far as not needing a wrench to change a saw blade, come on, exactly how often do you change blades, and how can it be faster than a wrench anyway. I suggest they spend that money on better bearings instead.....
You've hit the nail on the head. Better bearings don't sell. In many cases we've got tools designed by marketing guys- if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with....

[Michael Panis]

Have you tried holding the nut and turning the saw on? That would be tool less, and a bit nuts too.:D

that's great!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Tools are being developed with this very kind of crap all of the time. Its marketing to attract homeowners who are gimmick happy, like to tell their neighbors that their X has Y.

It violates the KISS principle, adds no value to the tool, and usually adds to the cost, complexity, and detracts from the reliability.

I am not able to agree with this as a general proposition.

Take the Bosch Toolless jig saw. There is no handicap to reliability made. It costs more but it's well worth it. Tool less changers on other hand held machinery is a fabulous advantage to the tradesman in the field who can't bother carrying Allen wrenches and regular wrenches and special factory wrenches for the tools just to change the blades.

I think that your statement about marketing may be correct as it regards the cheap crap. But as it regards the better machinery I say no it's not marketing.

The single greatest distinguishing factor between a company that makes garbage and a company that makes high quality products is all about who is in charge. When Marketing takes over, a company's product line falls apart. But, they sell it to the masses who don't know any better or simply can't afford better. When it's engineers and tradesmen in charge the product line is tremendously better but, costs more. So they sell less.

[Mike OMelia]

I dunno, but I have seen drill bits fall out of "tooless" chucks. Pretty harmless given that the motion is about the axis of lowest inertia.

Not so with a saw blade.

How about this? Drill an access hole in the side of your saw and use an impact wrench to remove and install. Little need to hold the blade I would think.

Mike

[Kyle Iwamoto]

To you KISS supporters. I find it funny that you post things that say that. Advances in safety and technology all violate the KISS theory. The most simple design would be exposed belts, no bladeguards, no cabinet, no dust collection. Safe? absolutely not. If you can afford that "gimmicky" slider, more power to you. Yeah, I own a sawstop. I find it far from a "gimmiky" sell. But many do claim that it is. But I may be stupid.

Speaking of that gimmicky slider, I was just going to post that a 5 horse motor would probably be too much for a tool-less changeout system, but obviously I be wrong.

[John Thompson]

I changed blades 6 times yesterday and will at least that many times today. I have no yearning for a wrench-less change as I don't see any benefit nor true need.

Sarge..

[Rod Sheridan]

Tools are being developed with this very kind of crap all of the time. Its marketing to attract homeowners who are gimmick happy, like to tell their neighbors that their X has Y.

It violates the KISS principle, adds no value to the tool, and usually adds to the cost, complexity, and detracts from the reliability. Keyless chucks are great if they are of good quality, but as far as not needing a wrench to change a saw blade, come on, exactly how often do you change blades, and how can it be faster than a wrench anyway. I suggest they spend that money on better bearings instead.....

I may change saw blades 4 or 5 times during my shop time, or not change it at all, depending upon the use.

I wish my scroll saw had tool less blade changes, especially when I'm doing pierced work.

So would I like tool less table saw blade changes? You bet, at present I require two 1" wrenches for my General saw. I have to get the two wrenches, undo the nut, loosen the nut, put the wrenches, reverse the process when installing the new blade.

Felder have a Format machine with tool less blade changes, saves money on a machine where you're counting the minutes. Not such a big deal at home, however I wouldn't characterise the Felder Format as "crap".

P.S. Many shapers have tool less spindle changes, not crap, they're on some of the best machines. Saves lots of time and money.

Regards,

[Jason White]

Porter Cable/DeWalt has done it with their circular saws. Not the greatest idea they've ever had.:rolleyes:

Very hard to get the spring-loaded lever thingy slid out so that you loosen/tighten the nut with your hand. A big part of why I sold the saw.

If my cabinet saw had that kind of feature, I'd get rid of it immediately. Plus, what's the big deal? A couple of wrenches hanging off the side of your saw. 30 seconds and you've got the blade changed.

Jason



I remember back before keyless chucks were available on our drills and we always had to take the extra time to change bits. Now most drills only require our hands. Even my recip saw and jig saw are toolless, etc.

Why haven't manufacturers of table saws come up with a method of toolless changing of saw blades? It seems to me that would be a step up in features. I know I prefer to cut wood, not spend time changing blades. Yes I know, it takes little time anyway but it didn't take much time to change a bit in a keyed chuck either but the manufacturers invented a better mousetrap anyway.

Comments? Or is there such an invention and I missed it?
Kev

[John Callahan]

Advances in safety and technology all violate the KISS theory.
True enough in the case of the SawStop but not necessarily so. Most current riving knife/guard setups are little more complicated than old style user unfriendly splitter/ guard setups and offer a great increase in safety- the best guard is the one you're likely to use. I'm not opposed to technology- if it offers a real benefit. Because something is more complex doesn't mean it is necesarily better. Bill Bisemeyer's fence is a good example of the KISS theory- simpler in design compared to the old Jet Lock fence yet it works better. Would I trade my PC 310 trim router for a Colt?- no way. I worked in a shop with a bunch of Colts, they didn't hold up. I think Larry's point and mine is all too often, they're selling the sizzle instead of the steak. SawStop gimicky? - no, even without the blade brake they're fine saws in their own right and the blade brake is a notable safety advance. I just don't regard the blade brake as the Holy Grail in saw design.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I changed blades 6 times yesterday and will at least that many times today. I have no yearning for a wrench-less change as I don't see any benefit nor true need.

Sarge..

I didn't either until I got a Bosch
Suddenly I saw the light.

It's really quite nice not to have to undertake an expeditionary search for that specialty wrench.

[Paul Ryan]

I may long for the day when the arbor nut is tooless. But while my wreches are on the side of my saw, it is not hard to find them. Now if my boy starts playing with them, then I will have a problem. The only thing I am having a problem with at this point is the key for my saw. That is the 1st thing he goes for when we go into the shop. I have to remeber to take the key out when we get there other wise I will be looking all over for it latter on.

Personally I like porter cables design for their circ saws, that is one of the reasons I bought that saw. But it would never work for a table saw, you couldn't get the nut tight enough.

[Chris Friesen]

Someone already beat you to it -
http://www.format-4.ca/ca-us/products/format-sliding-table-saws/kappa-550-x-motion.html?felder-group=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.felder-group.ca%2Fproducts.php%3Fback_url%3Dhttp%253A%252 F%252Fwww.felder-canada.ca%252F

Of course, it'll cost you...


That's exactly how I was thinking about doing it...large diameter knurled nut. As they say, it's only possible if there is an arbor lock of some sort.

[Rick Fisher]

I purchased a Festool router with a ratchet collet. Bit changes are simple and fast.. I agree with Larry that much of the stuff is goofy, but there are some features worth paying for.

I hated changing router bits before, now.. its no big deal.

[tim rowledge]

Just because DeWalt/Porter-Cable couldn't get it right there is no reason to assume nobody else can.

A large knurled/star-shaped nut and a safe way to grip the blade is all that's needed; you shouldn't be tightening the nut too much anyway.

[Larry Edgerton]

I will give you an example of what I am tallking about.

Bosch jigs saws used to come with a long screw driver that slid in a hole in the top. It was always in the box, right next to the new blades, so it was a no brainer. Go to the box, get a new blade, change it, and procede.

Then they came out with the "Tool Free" jigsaw. so now I have to screw with this silly plastic piece of junk that clicks when the blade is tight. How tight is that exactly? I don't know. I do know that now all of a sudden my Bosch jig saws are dropping blades, where my old one never did. I wish I had not thrown out the old one so I could have salvaged the good parts.

I bought a Dewalt copy of the Bosch thinking maybe they got it right. They didn't, it was worse, so bad in fact that I gave it away before it was smashed to bits, the fate of bad tools that tick me off. Important to improve the breed.....;)

My MiniMax tablesaw has a rod that drops through a hole in the table that locks the spindle for blade changes or any other work on the saw. A simple addition that can not break and should be standard on all saws as far as I can see. I keep that and the two wrenches[scoring blade]on a magnet on the Biesmeyer fence, and I have not lost them in 18 years, they are at my right hand all the time, and most importantly to me, I know exactly how tight my blade is. It takes me maybe a minute and a half to change blades, can't see where I need to be in much more of a hurry than that. And you know, that big nut has never malfuntioned.....

I may not saying that there can not be inprovements in tooling, I am just saying it is too often driven by sales and not actual tool usage. I am constantly amazed at the crap that is produced to sell at a price point, and the gimmicks that they use to attract the less than experianced. I have used many tools in the past few years that make me question the whole process. Do they actually try to use these tools?

I get so mad at companys like Porter Cable that used to build Pro Quality tools, and now build junk built to sell to a price point, with all of the current buzzword gimmicks added on, even if they do hinder actual work. Take for example the toolless collet on Porter Cables. Didn't really save time if you are at all organized, and cuts down on your range of adjustment on any router it is on, and subsequently raises your center of gravity, and sorry, but I like to tighten them with wrenches so I know exactly how tight they are.

I do have a Tersa head on my planer, now that is a time saving improvement that actually improves the work I do as it cuts better than a conventional head. So yes there are places where new is better but the nut on a tablesaw? That is a solution to a problem that does not exist.