I thought I knew how to turn bowls.

[Reed Gray]

Day one of a 3 day workshop with Stewart and Allen Batty. As a primarily self taught bowl turner, I was very surprised at how much I learned in one session with Stewart. This will change a lot of things I do. First thing to go will be the Ellsworth sharpening jig. The hand sharpened gouges, not swept back work so much better. I still have to figure out if my scrapers will rough out faster than a gouge though.

Tomorrow is with Allen. I use a skew just enough to get the hang of it then it sits for a few months, and I don't quite have to start over.

Day 3 hand chased threads, and review.

Probably my biggest gloat to date.

robo hippy

[Brian McInturff]

Must be nice!!
So are the gouges more blunted? Have you seen how Johannes Mickelsen sharpens his? His has a rolled bevel. Almost catch proof.

[Chris Rae]

First thing to go will be the Ellsworth sharpening jig. The hand sharpened gouges, not swept back work so much better

Do you mean sharpened like a traditional bowl gouge rather than a fingernail, Irish, or Ellsworth grind?

[Steve Schlumpf]

Reed - glad to hear you are enjoying the classes! Looking forward to hearing more about it once you have more time! Have fun!

[Craig Powers]

Reed,
Where are you taking the classes?

[Judy Kingery]

Reed,

That's outstanding! One of the most enjoyable workshops I ever attended was a front-row seat with Stuart Batty, learned a lot AND he was such fun as well! Enjoy your time and tell us more as you go along!

Jude

[Jim Kountz]

Sounds like a good time to me!! Keep posting and let us know everything ok!!

[Mark Norman]

I was also wondering if a scraper would be a safer way to rough out and reduce catches. Just one catch can ruin a piece and yer whole day..

Man, I need to attend a class before I start developing bad habits..

[Norm Zax]

RH,
You are now officially no longer a self taught turner, but all for the best.
A personal request: after practicing threads, please give us a condensed version of what tools where introduced and even more important, what is the tool of choice for this function.
Enjoy!

[David Walser]

Reed,

Your learning from among the best. I've not met or seen Alan in person, but I have watched and learned a lot from his videos. His son may be the best demonstrator I've every had the privileged to watch. I can only drool with envy at the chance to attend a class put on by the two of them.

Please do report back!

[Steve Mawson]

I would like a picture of before and after on the gouges. Trying to decide how mine should be sharpened. Love to hear more on the classes. Keep us updated.

[Reed Gray]

Most of the information I am taking in is stuff I kind of already know, but can't really describe. I haven't practiced enough to really know and understand it. The grind is more the traditional grind, 40 degree bevel, and 40 degree sweep, and relieved bevel on the back. Mostly it is the push cut, which I have always done, but used a shear cut to clean it up. Now, I can cut a lot cleaner, but more practice is needed. Also, when bowl turning, the left hand isn't on the tool rest. Makes a big difference in 'feeling' what the tool is doing. I have known for a while that you don't 'ride' the bevel, but gently 'rub' it.

Stewart did claim that he could rough faster than me with a gouge. It would be fun to take that challenge. The down side to using the scraper is that you don't get the practice with the gouge, but I can never clean up the bowl with one pass with a gouge, at least not on the inside of the bowl. Outside, yes, after final shaping with a scraper.

The thread chasing was fun as well. Allen was telling a lot of stories as well and got side tracked a bit from what we were doing, but the stories were great and again, I learned a lot. Hand chasing threads isn't that difficult. Mostly it is having the right tools. The chasers/cutters, need to be beveled back a bit, 75 degrees or so. If the face with the cutters is flat, they don't cut worth beans, and of course, the one I picked up to try was like that. Outside cutter, inside cutter and support/hook tool to hold the inside cutter, and a small tool with a hook in it to get a relief cut on the inside so the chaser doesn't run into the bottom of the box and tear up the threads because it stops advancing. It would take a bit of practice to get good at it, but not really any more difficult than using the McNaughton coring system. The best wood we have here is Mountain Mahogany, and for some reason, no one grows box wood here. Great stuff, but not much color.

Workshop is in Independence Oregon, just south of Salem, and about 55 miles from me.

robo hippy

[Bernie Weishapl]

Reed sounds like you are having fun and learning. Mike Mahoney uses a conventional gouge also for his final cuts on a bowl. I saw him demo and he put me onto that. He suggested buying a P & N conventional grind and putting a 40 to 45 deg bevel on it with really no swept back wings. It seriously changed my sanding from 60 and 80 grit to starting at 120 or 150.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Can one (or both) of you elaborate on how that change in the gouge grind makes for a smoother finish cut? And do either of you have pictures that you can post? As a reference, how does it compare to the stock grind on a Thompson?

thanks, Jake

[John W Dixon]

Reed I'm jealous of ya! Glad you are enjoying the class.

John

[Doug Thompson]

Can one (or both) of you elaborate on how that change in the gouge grind makes for a smoother finish cut? And do either of you have pictures that you can post? As a reference, how does it compare to the stock grind on a Thompson?

thanks, Jake

Sharper cutting angles is part of it 40 degrees vs 60 degrees. To get a 40 degree grind inside a bowl they use a large secondary bevel. Stu uses a U shape gouge and Johannes Michelsen a V shape with the same type grind, 40 - 45 from the nose to the wings. That is measured from the flute, how it's measured is a good guess which is close enough. A grind like this can't be done with a jig so they are tough to learn without someone teaching you in person.

I've talked to Stu about it but never took a class so I won't comment but I do use the grind from Johannes. His grind on a V shape bowl gouge creates a gouge that won't catch, in a cut the tool can be rolled back and forth without grabbing.

It's late...

[Gordon Seto]

Can one (or both) of you elaborate on how that change in the gouge grind makes for a smoother finish cut? And do either of you have pictures that you can post? As a reference, how does it compare to the stock grind on a Thompson?

thanks, Jake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8-8MNhpvY
This tool grind video by Mike Mahoney is as close I can find in the web.
The Stuart Batty hand grind is not easy to master to get a consistent grind without any facet. Stuart Batty has demonstrated in our Club several times. From the recording, it took him 5 to 8 seconds to grind his bowl gouges. It was a perfect grind each time.
The Stuart Batty grind is slightly different than the Mike Mahoney video.
-The nose angle is 40 degree (included angle), it is slightly sharper.
-Longer sweep, 40 degree instead of 45 degree. The gouge swing higher on both sides. The reference lines on the flat platform are 5 degree higher on each side.
-not hollow grind; remove the heel of the grind so it would not bruise the wood for the interior of the bowl.
-top sweep can be slightly convex or straight, but never concave.

With his 40 degree nose angle, it won't reach deep as explained here:
http://www.woodturningdesign.com/askdale/14/14.shtml
Stuart can grind a 1/32" blunter primary angle on his 40 degree bowl gouge as needed for deep & narrow bowl.

On the bottom, he uses a very large & long bowl gouge with traditional grind. (used to be a Jerry Glaser bowl gouge)

His grind is not the complete magic bullet; it is mostly his skill. His demonstration & class makes one humble.

[Greg Haugen]

Gordon, that is the best explanation I've ever seen!!! Well Done!! You nailed it all!!

My first projects when I started turning was a Skew and an Alan Lacer DVD and a Bowl Gouge, actually a couple of them, and a Mahoney DVD. That's how I started and thought it was the only way. I don't even own a scraper bigger than 1/2", which what I use for my boxes. I've always thought it would be interesting to take a class with someone like Reed or Dale Larson to see and try their scraper techniques. We've been fortunate enough to have Stuart at our club. One thing I do like about Stuart's technique is that he'll be the first to say it's not all about the "bevel angle" as much as floating the bevel and getting the angle to do that on any bowl. There is no "magical" angle for everything, but if you understand the principals you'll be able to adapt to any form.

When it comes to gouge grinding, Stuart is definately THE MAN!!

[Reed Gray]

Okay, now to try to explain it. First, with Stu there to explain some of the details it is really fairly easy to do, and I have never hand sharpened tools in my 11 years of turning. We turned 6 bowls and I sharpened 20 or so times. Probably more than I had to, but enough to get the process down. The tool rest at the grinder is set at 40 degrees. There are 2 lines on the tool rest as well that come out at 40 degrees from either side of the wheel. You stand on the left side and use the left wheel if you are right handed. All sharpening is done from the one side, one stance and one grip. When first learning, You sharpen the flute on the left side first, the right flute, and then blend in the tip. After you get the hang of it, you make it all one motion. Lay the gouge up to the wheel at the 40 degree side angle, the side of the flute is parallel to the wheel, you don't roll the flutes all the way to 90 degrees to the tool rest. If this doesn't make sence, then use a felt pen to make a line up the inside of the flute from nose to top, and make that line parallel to the face of the wheel. If you have a V gouge, you just push it straight back and forth on the tool rest. If you have more of a U gouge, you pivot the gouge slightly (as in push handle on the tool rest, rocking but not rolling the flutes). With a V gouge there is little tip to blend in. With a U gouge, there is a little bit more tip to blend in.

The bottom of the bowl gouge Stu uses is a Glaser tool that is no longer made (I don't think Glaser tools are being made much any more). Not very thick (about 1/8 inch), but similar to Doug's U shaped gouge. The edge has a slight arc to it, kind of between a spindle roughing gouge which is square across the top, and a superflute gouge with a round nose. The heel of the gouge is ground to the 40 degree angle, and the cutting edge is ground free hand to about 70 degrees. This gets you through the transition area of the inside of the bowl, and across the bottom. The 40 degree angle will get you across shallow bowls and platters, but not deeper ones, especially bigger bowls where the rim of the bowl and/or the end of the tool rest gets in the way. You can do the same thing with a worn out old gouge that is too short to get into your jig. Same grind, just more blunt nose.

For inside the bowl, you have to relieve the heel of your gouge bevel. Do you have those concentric rings down the inside of your bowls? Nasty buggers, and some times the 80 grit gouge will get them out. Grind off half the heel of your gouge (bottom of the bevel) and this will eliminate them. Ever notice that you don't have those rings on the outside of the bowl? Having the cutting edge closer to the cutting edge makes it more stable, and also the sharp heel will push the gouge into the cut, rather than having it cut at its own pace. It also bruises the wood. On a concave surface, this is a problem. On a convex surface (outside of the bowl) the bottom of the bevel does not ride on the wood. This discovery (several years ago) allows me to skip the 80 grit gouge almost all the time. Seeing where I can start at 180 is a reality.

All tools work, depending on sharpness and how good your tecnique is. I have always had my gouge handles under my fore arm, and am now gripping them out on the end. I will have to experiment with this a lot to see how it works and get used to it. The best thing about a class or demo is the new things you see and get to try out and work into your way of doing things. There were no really new things, just adaptations of things I was already doing. Learning to 'feel' the wood is still the most difficult thing to do. Having my hands off the tool rest when turning bowls really helps that sensitivity a lot.

robo hippy

[Brian McInturff]

Doug,
Do you do a Mickelsen grind when you do hats? His grind and Stuarts grind sound very similar except Hannes rolls his back and forth while advancing it up the wheel. I still don't get as even an edge on the secondary bevel like Hannes does. Is there an easy trick to that? Reed forgive me for semi hijacking your thread by asking Doug a question. Maybe someone else or even you can answer it though since it sounds like the grinds are similar.

[Nick Stagg]

Brian,

Stuart doesn't use a "V" shaped gouge, his are all eliptical, with the exception of the bottom bowl gouge. As Reed said, the gouge is ground at 40 degrees and that includes the rake angle on the wings and the sides of the wings.

His grind has no similarities to the Michelson Grind, JoHannes was here in my shop in November for an all day demonstration so I had ample time to watch him sharpen his tool.

Allan and Stuart spent three days here and we practiced the 40 degree grind, and without exception, all the students were very capable of doing it freehand before they left.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Nick

[Doug Thompson]

It's the same idea that can be used on any shape bowl gouge V,U, oval, parabolic etc. and it doesn't matter what brand gouge. It's 40-45 degrees to the flute all around the grind so grab a old bowl gouge and give it a try.

Johannes taught me how to turn a hat so this grind is what I learned to use. With this grind I can rip shavings off a blank, your only limited by the hp of the lathe. IMO - a 5 hp lathe would be a ball to turn on. Is this the best grind on the market... for me it is BUT the best grind is the one that works for you.

Reed, I have a 5/8 diameter that has the same flute as the U shape gouge but the depth would make it a SRG. The wall thickness is .130 which is a bit to thin and the wings are a bit to high but it's 12 inches long. I'll send it to you if you want to play around with it, this might work for a finish cut. After the symposium there will be time to try out different ideas, a flute close to Stu's could be done... 5/8 and 3/4?

Talk about grinds, tonight I just finished grinding Michael Hosaluk's detail gouges. It's a 40 degree cutting bevel with a 28 degree secondary so only 5/16 of the cutting bevel is left... wicked grind.

It's late again...

[Gordon Seto]

I just finished grinding Michael Hosaluk's detail gouges. It's a 40 degree cutting bevel with a 28 degree secondary so only 5/16 of the cutting bevel is left... wicked grind.


Can you post a picture of the "wicked grind"?

I hope Reed doesn't mind the hijack. I am sure he is interested in some more new tools.:D

[Doug Thompson]

Late last night I took the time to write a long post but it's gone... darn. Tonight I'll try again... I have a tool here that might be used on finish cuts. Reed call me tonight at 440-241-6360

[Doug Thompson]

Late last night I took the time to write a long post but it's gone... darn. Tonight I'll try again... I have a tool here that might be used on finish cuts. Reed call me tonight at 440-241-6360

Found it;

It's the same idea that can be used on any shape bowl gouge V,U, oval, parabolic etc. and it doesn't matter what brand gouge. It's 40-45 degrees to the flute all around the grind so grab a old bowl gouge and give it a try.

Johannes taught me how to turn a hat so this grind is what I learned to use. With this grind I can rip shavings off a blank, your only limited by the hp of the lathe. IMO - a 5 hp lathe would be a ball to turn on. Is this the best grind on the market... for me it is BUT the best grind is the one that works for you.

Reed, I have a 5/8 diameter that has the same flute as the U shape gouge but the depth would make it a SRG. The wall thickness is .130 which is a bit to thin and the wings are a bit to high but it's 12 inches long. I'll send it to you if you want to play around with it, this might work for a finish cut. After the symposium there will be time to try out different ideas, a flute close to Stu's could be done... 5/8 and 3/4?

Talk about grinds, tonight I just finished grinding Michael Hosaluk's detail gouges. It's a 40 degree cutting bevel with a 28 degree secondary so only 5/16 of the cutting bevel is left... wicked grind.

[Perry Higgins]

Reed,
Who sponsored the workshop and how did you find out about it? sounds like one of those chances of a life time.
Perry

[David Walser]

Sharper cutting angles is part of it 40 degrees vs 60 degrees. To get a 40 degree grind inside a bowl they use a large secondary bevel. Stu uses a U shape gouge and Johannes Michelsen a V shape with the same type grind, 40 - 45 from the nose to the wings. That is measured from the flute, how it's measured is a good guess which is close enough. A grind like this can't be done with a jig so they are tough to learn without someone teaching you in person.
... (Emphasis added.)

At a demo, I had a chance to ask Stu about this. The goal is to have the same cutting angle whether you're cutting with the nose or up on the wing. With some "swept back" bowl gouge grinds, the nose has a fairly blunt 65 - 70 degree bevel while the wings might have a bevel angle of less than 30 degrees. That change in bevel angle can make a huge difference in how you need to present the tool to get a clean cut when transitioning the cut from the nose to the wing. By contrast, Stu's grind has a 40 degree bevel at both the nose and the wing -- which he thinks is easier for both beginner and experienced pro alike.

I asked him about using a jig and he said none could reproduce his grind accurately. I asked about the Tormek system (which is what I had just started using) and he said that he really liked the Tormek jig and that it, alone, could produce a grind that was very close to what he does by hand. He said he still preferred to grind by hand (and thought I should learn to grind by hand), but he wouldn't try to discourage me from using the Tormek. (Of course, maybe he was just being diplomatic about my Tormek investment.)

[Reed Gray]

The workshop was sponsered by the Willamette Valley Woodturners in Salem Oregon. I am a member, even if I live in Eugene. Nick Stagg is the host, and has a number of workshops at his place. A really great host and an excellent setting. A lot of the famous turners and teachers will travel and demo/teach. Most of the smaller clubs won't get them in because of expences, but the larger clubs in bigger citys will host them. They aren't cheap, but you get what you pay for. Seeing a demonstration is great, a class is a lot better, you ask questions, practice in front of the teacher, and get tips on how to correct what you are doing wrong.
robo hippy

[Dan Forman]

Reed- I've read all the descriptions, but still need to see a picture of the business end of the gouge to understand what the Stu grind looks like. Could you please post a picture? Thanks.

Dan

[Reed Gray]

Err, my computer skills are lacking in that department. I think the Mike Mahoney video on You Tube shows it. Basically the same method.

robo hippy

[Dan Forman]

Reed, the Mahoney video shows a fingernail grind. I thought the one you were talking about had very little sweep, something between the FN and standard grind.

Dan

[Reed Gray]

Well, I viewed Mikes video, and his fingernail grind is almost exactly the same as Stewarts. Notice when he grinds the wing, that the wing is parallel to the grinding wheel, not running at an angle. The amount of rolling the tip to blend it in with the wings depends on your gouge. A V shape has a small round on the nose, and a U shape has a bigger round on the nose. The traditional grind is more like the bottom of the bowl gouge, 40 to 45 degree bevel, and a secondary bevel of about 70 degrees on the cutting edge. I will be out in the shop next week trying out some variations of the grinds. Right now, my 13 year old daughter is here for the weekend with 2 friends, they just got out of shcool, so I won't have a lot of time for the shop.
robo hippy

[Dan Forman]

I think I see the source of my confusion. I was primarily interested in the "bottom of the bowl" grind. Have to pick up a traditional gouge and play with that aspect.

Three teenage girls for a whole weekend? You find yourself out in the shop just for refuge. :D

Dan

[Mike Meredith]

Alan and Stuart Batty were in Portland for classes right after they left Independence, once Nick found my place, anyway. Threading has been one of my interests for several years and I was glad to have a chance to study with Alan again. You are right about the angle of the chaser face. I had to grind the bottom of the chasers i got from Crown to get a better presentation of the teeth. They work a lot better now, though it shortened the life of the tool. Also sharpening to produce a negative rake is important. Alan was quick to point out that all the readily available chasers were useless. However, I cant find the ones he uses anywhere. Hamlet seems to make the best ones we can get in the US.

[Mike Meredith]

The bottom of the bowl gouge Stu uses is a Glaser tool that is no longer made (I don't think Glaser tools are being made much any more).
robo hippy

That bottom bowl gouge is still being made , just not with the 10V tip insert like Stuart had.

[Mike Meredith]

The "bottom of the bowl gouge" is described in a pdf from this link

http://www.glaserhitec.com/tool_line/toolline.htm

It's an impressive tool but very specialized;a true semi circle, essentially a very thick SRG. I converted a Serious 1" bowl gouge to a sort of copy (standard grind, no wings and ground at 70 degrees). It works ok but i am going to visit hitec if the are at the AAW symposium next week.

Parenthetically, I can now sharpen the Serious gouge (A2 steel and, well, no Thompson tool) because of the trick i learned from Alan Batty. Leave some water on the when you cool it and stop grinding when the water has evaporated.