Handmade Chairmaker's Bowsaw

[Jim Paulson]

Hi all,

I just finished a bowsaw project and I am very pleased with the results. I made the saw stretcher and arms/brackets from tiger maple and the handles from some scrap maple left over from turning Windsor chair legs. I followed the tradition of using mortise and tenon joins to hold the frame together. It sports a 27 1/2" long turning saw blade (purchased from Highland Hardware) and it will work well in cutting out Windsor chair seats. I have glued up a bunch of seat blanks and soon I'll give this saw a good work out. I found the perfect excuse to include brass rod and copper end caps, and to fasten the handles together with steel pins.

I enjoyed making this saw :) and I plan to make another one soon that will have a 15 3/4" turbo cut turning blade.

Jim

[Doug Mason]

Hey--that's pretty neat!!!

[John Schreiber]

That's gorgeous Jim. Thanks for the pictures.

I wanna make one of those some day.

A bunch of questions: How did you make the pins / the parts that hold the blade? Why does it have a full handle at both ends? How does the toggle work; do you slide it out then turn it, then slide it back? Can you substitute a different blade?

[Jim Paulson]

Thanks Doug and John for your kind words and for looking.

John I used to live in Downers Grove, IL. I bet you enjoy the annual woodworkers show in Villa Park. Sometimes I really miss all the things available to a person in the Chicago area.

Regarding the saw, I checked out a whole bunch of web sites that gave good information on how to make them. But after all that, I opted to modify a design that was in FWW#151 by J. Crate Larkin (p.82). Instead of turning the handle and the blade holder together out of wood, I used 3/8" diameter brass rod for the blade holder. Nothing fancy about it,the brass rod fits tight into the handle and gets locked to the ferrule by a cross pin. I just peened it at both ends. The rod is cut length wise with a hack saw and then a small hole was drilled at right angles to the slot to lock it. I used a finish nail and bent it over on the back side.

I opted for full handles because I like symmetry and my ol'e Marples bowsaw is the same way. Each one I make now will be different in some way.

The toggle or key is thin (1/4") and easily slides when you are tightening. If you like tiger maple, a thin flat key is pretty to look at.

I made this for cutting seats and the balde has 9 tpi. It would be easy to modify the blade holder to accomodate a wider blade. I have got some hanging on the wall that would serve as examples.

Take care,
Jim

[Robert Rozaieski]

That's a beauty Jim! I have a 12" turning saw but I've had a longer turning saw on my to do list for awhile now. Your's is very inspiring.

[John Keeton]

Nice job, Jim! That will go well in your shop, and is in keeping with your style. Love the maple!

[Dominic Greco]

Jim,
Wow, that looks GREAT! And I bet it's just as nice to use.

The tiger maple really looks awesome. I also really like the overall shape of the saw. It's elegant, yet looks like it can pull it's weight. I notice that you made the arms pretty substantial. How's the weight/balance of the saw when in use? Is it as easy to handle as it looks?

I just finished my first attempt at making a bowsaw. I made mine out of hickory and made the arm too thin at the most critical point! Talk about planned obsolescence! It didn't survive a test run. But my next one definitely will!

[Michael Sobik]

Oh man, that is great! Let us know how it cuts.

[Jim Paulson]

Thanks for your kind words. You folks are great. I have been wanting to make one of these saws for awhile.

Dominic you raised a great point! The strength of the arms was something that I considered expecially since I used tiger maple. Although I believe we only need to get the blade taut, I opted to preserve thickness just in case there was more vulnerability to breakage. I agree that it looks pretty neat to thin these down more than I did. I will probably try that when I use a less figured wood. I am curious to know more about your experience since hickory or ash would seem to offer strength in those applications.

Another thing that I think is worthy of consideration is whether thinning the stock thickness (for the arms) above and below the stretcher joint is a good idea or not. I looked at a bowsaw at an antique mall with similar appearance to the one in the background of the recent cover photo on Popular Woodworking featuring Roy Underhill. The saw at the mall was elegant and had stock thickness reduced by 50% in the areas I mentioned, but the handles and arms were greatly divergent from the blade centerline. I suspect either poor storage or vulnerability to warpage due to stock thinning as the culprit or perhaps both.

Maybe some of you can offer your thoughts on that aspect of design. I couldn't bring myself to purchase the misaligned saw when I knew I was going to make one of my own anyway.

Jim

[Dominic Greco]

Thanks for your kind words. You folks are great. I have been wanting to make one of these saws for awhile.

Dominic you raised a great point! The strength of the arms was something that I considered expecially since I used tiger maple. Although I believe we only need to get the blade taut, I opted to preserve thickness just in case there was more vulnerability to breakage. I agree that it looks pretty neat to thin these down more than I did. I will probably try that when I use a less figured wood. I am curious to know more about your experience since hickory or ash would seem to offer strength in those applications.

Another thing that I think is worthy of consideration is whether thinning the stock thickness (for the arms) above and below the stretcher joint is a good idea or not. I looked at a bowsaw at an antique mall with similar appearance to the one in the background of the recent cover photo on Popular Woodworking featuring Roy Underhill. The saw at the mall was elegant and had stock thickness reduced by 50% in the areas I mentioned, but the handles and arms were greatly divergent from the blade centerline. I suspect either poor storage or vulnerability to warpage due to stock thinning as the culprit or perhaps both.

Maybe some of you can offer your thoughts on that aspect of design. I couldn't bring myself to purchase the misaligned saw when I knew I was going to make one of my own anyway.

Jim

Jim,
Here are some photos of the broken bowsaw arm. I figure that it would be a good learning experience for those about to undertake this project. The plan as well as the hardware I used were from TFWW. I think the reason this failed was that I screwed up on the "cheeks" and made them flat (as oppsed to raised). This deviation (among others) caused my problems.

This is the before shot:
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/BowsawMk1_1.jpg

And here's after I went a bit too heavy with the tension!:eek:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/arm_failure_1.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/arm_failure_2.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z287/DominicGreco/arm_failure_3.jpg

Notice in the first photo how the one arm is much thinner than the other? Also, the break line follows the grain. So I introduce a weak point, and then add a bit too much force. The fracture then follows the easiest path and you get what happened here. Making the cheek faces flat didn't help either.

So, what did I learn?


Don't reduce the cross section up near the point where deflection will be greatest! In fact, I MAY err on the side of caution and make the arms a tad thicker here.

Orientation of the grain is critical. My next set of bowsaw arms will be rift sawn (or quarter sawn?) as much as possible. In other words, the grain will be 90 deg to that you see in the filed piece. In addition, the blank will be oriented such that the grain will follow the curve of the arm a lot closer.(i.e: no grain running off the edge)

Form all the mortises, drill all the holes, shape the face of the cheek, and fit the cross piece BEFORE final shaping (while the wood is flat)! This will help to keep the points of attachment in the same plane.


I'm sticking with hickory for this project. It's strong, plentiful, locally available, has a history of use in this application,.....and I just bought a rough sawn 8' x 7" x 8/4 piece of hickory this morning for for $2.25/bd ft. :>)

[Jim Paulson]

Dominic,

Thank you for posting your bowsaw and offering some observations about it. It is a beauty especially the handle wood and the contrast is wonderful. I can see that the blade you are using, since it is more like a coping saw blade, would probably take a different tension than the one I made. My bowsaw blade is about 3/8" wide and my metal coping saw with a narrower blade has a hearty ping sound.

I am sure that the creekers out there will have some thoughts on this too. But the one thing I noticed is that you placed your string nearly at the end of the arms. Many bowsaw designs show that same placement, however you could try lowering the string/cord on the arm and I suspect it will help in minimizing breakage given the same specifications.

In Larkin's design (FWW #151) the cord was about 2 inches down from the top of the arm/bracket, versus a stout bowsaw design by Simon Watts in FWW#51 where the cord was placed an inch or less from the end. If the arms are more substantial like Watts design, the placement is probably less important. Best wishes on your next bowsaw.

Take care,
Jim

[Ken Werner]

My thanks both to Jim for inspiration and Dominic for experience. Good on both of you.

Ken

[John Schreiber]

. . . I bet you enjoy the annual woodworkers show in Villa Park. Sometimes I really miss all the things available to a person in the Chicago area. . . .
I'm actually about two and a half hours south of Villa Park. I used to live up there, but now I'm happy to stay away from the big city.


. . . The toggle or key is thin (1/4") and easily slides when you are tightening. If you like tiger maple, a thin flat key is pretty to look at. . . .
I noticed how pretty that is. The 2nd picture above really shows it.


. . . I think the reason this failed was that I screwed up on the "cheeks" and made them flat (as opposed to raised). This deviation (among others) caused my problems.

. . .

Notice in the first photo how the one arm is much thinner than the other? Also, the break line follows the grain. So I introduce a weak point, and then add a bit too much force. The fracture then follows the easiest path and you get what happened here. Making the cheek faces flat didn't help either. . . .

Thanks Dominic. I think I can learn more from your break than I can from a dozen pictures of completed saws. I'm thinking of keeping the wood relatively thick in the fore and aft direction, but thinner crosswise except where the tennon for the cross bar and the pin for the blade would be. That is, looking at it from the side, it would be fairly thick, but from the front/back it would be thin - fat - thin - fat. It seems like keeping weight down while maintaining stiffness is the key.

I wish this project were closer to the top of the list for me. I'm all excited about it now.

[John Schreiber]

Here are some pics of what I'm thinking of.

119710 119711
The SU model is at <http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=6490e95e020a390bb31359c13ded1452>

I'm not quite sure how the handle should work. Do you hold it only by the handle or is the handle in the palm of your hand and your fingers hold the frame?

I'm also thinking of just a nominal mortise and tenon bump/depression. I read somewhere that the tenons aren't really necessary except when the tension is removed and the mortises create a big weakness.

How much tension is needed; just enough to keep the blade straight when pushing it, or more?

[Jim Paulson]

Ken,
You assessed things very well in this conversation. Thanks for being a sage here. I look forward to more opportunities to learn from each other.

John,

I am sure you'll make a wonderful bowsaw when you do it. The design looks just like my Ulmia crosscut frame saw. It has some shaping/relieving on the arms above and below the stretcher area, but the strength was preserved by not reducing thickness too drastically. My thought on this is that shaping and reducing the stock dimension of the the arms for lightness and appearance has to be balanced with the potential of breakage or warping. The bowsaw that I looked at an antique mall had arms that were warped below the stretcher area where the maker had thinned the stock to much less than 3/8" thickness. Food for thought.

Take care,
Jim

[Charles Shenk]

Nice saw! I too recently made a few 12" bowsaws and used the blades and pins from TFWW. I made 8. Kept the best two, gave one to my Dad, sold two and have three saved for gifts. Along the way I learned a lot. Most importantly that they cut incredibly well. I used hickory and beech for all of them. Some have english walnut stretchers to reduce weight.

A few random thoughts in addition to the good advice already shared:

I think the most important design consideration is to get hard and somewhat flexible, straight and tight grained wood. I used hickory and beech for all of mine. Some have english walnut stretchers to reduce weight. Ideally you want an 8/4 board that is either flatsawn or quartersawn the whole length. The 8/4 stock gives you more options in terms of getting the flat grain orientation you want. Before you cut a board look at the end grain first and break the pieces down by saving the straightest/most flatsawn pieces for the sides and the more riftsawn pieces for the stretchers (which is good since it is more laterally stable).

Be sure to keep the holes for the handle pins snug. If the pins are a 1/4" in diameter, drill the holes through the side arms (wrong term?) a "smidge" smaller on your drill press (ie: 60/64"). Then with a non battery powered hand drill, gradually and slowly ream out the holes until the pins fit just right with just a small amount of friction. Creap up on the final size. Not too tight and not too loose. Nothing worse than a saw with sloppy fitting handles that you constantly have to support with a finger. Also, the handles should loosen up a bit in time after use and continued drying of the wood.

Make templates

I like square cheeks on my bowsaws. Try and set up your saw so that when it is under the tension, the cheeks and stretcher get pulled into square. What I mean is that you want the stretcher to be touching the bottom portion of the cheeks a little bit when the saw is not under operating tension. This takes a bit of trial and error, but results in a more rigid saw. I never got that good of rigidity with the rounded/scooped cheeks. The saws rocked/racked too much.

[george wilson]

That is a nice design for a saw. I might add that the strongest wood will be gotten by splitting out the blanks,so that there is no cross grain to break like that 1 saw did. Then,of course,the tiger maple is a weaker wood,and has a lot of spring in it when you are turning it in a lathe.It is like a coiled spring,rather than a straight bar of material.

[Jim Paulson]

Good to hear from you Charles and George,

It is the same way when you make a long bow. You split the wood and then use the preferred grain direction for maximum strength. Great comments both of you.

Charles as you were discussing the need for the handles to grip the brass rod tightly, I remembered that I drilled my handle holes on the lathe. I used a lathe accessory that held the handle in a chuck while I advanced the brad point bit into the handle. It turned out to be a perfect fit and centered. If there was one thing that I struggled with it was ensuring that I had proper alignment of the holes through the arms for the handles with pins. Consequently, I don't have the right amount of tightness in the fit with the arm and handles under tension. This part seems tricky as it needs to have some clearance, but no too much when you put the frame under tension. Sometimes the handle will turn when I don't want it to so I will still need to enhance the fit yet.

Thanks,
Jim

[Charles Shenk]

If there was one thing that I struggled with it was ensuring that I had proper alignment of the holes through the arms for the handles with pins.
Thanks,
Jim


Jim- I found that drilling the holes for the handles and locating the mortises while the stock was still rectangular to be the best order of operations. Once those are located the rest is mostly shaping the wood to what you want. I used my drill press with a fence and a stop block to get all the holes perfectly centered and aligned with each other.

As TFWW suggests, I also find braided fishing line to be the best string. It's stronger, less elastic and less bulky. I use 7 wraps around each post and use a flyfishing knot to connect the ends to each other. I hold the saw parts together, with the ends hanging off the bench a few inches, in my bench dogs.

Chuck

[Jim Paulson]

Chuck,

Thanks for that last message, it will certainly help me on the next bowsaw. I too made the mortises and the drilled the holes with a drill press before cutting and shaping the back side of the arms as a matter of operation. However, I didn't have a fence and a stop block to help me keep the holes true or positioned properly. I can see now how that would have made the difference as you indicate. Without a fence, a very slight error in edge joining the arm would throw off the alignment. In fact that is what happened to me. I had to redrill at least one hole to keep it aligned properly. Did you make your drill press fence out of aluminum or steel?

I'll also look for some braided fishing line, but for now standard braided mason's line works pretty well. It is pretty neat that you made 8 bowsaws.

Regards,
Jim

[Charles Shenk]

Chuck,

Did you make your drill press fence out of aluminum or steel?



Regards,
Jim


Jim- I made an "auxiliary table" for my drill press out of MDF and wood. It bolts on the existing table. In the wooden fence is a slotted T rail that the block slides along. Many many plans out there. I consider a DP fence a must have.

Chuck

[Matt Wilson]

It is the same way when you make a long bow. You split the wood and then use the preferred grain direction for maximum strength. Great comments both of you.


I made the same saw as Dom, but I split mine. Its been really solid so far (its over a year old) and I really tighten mine quite a bit. I can't claim to have split it for strength though. The grain was so perfect (and I just finished watching an episode of the woodwright's shop) that splitting seemed easier than sawing.
I'd like to make at least 2 or 3 more saws. A rip,xcut and maybe a bigger turning saw.
Here is the young lad showing it off for me. Note that I bought the turned handles. All Hickory
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/mwilson_24/P4200134.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/mwilson_24/P4200132.jpg

[Jim Paulson]

Matt,

I love the pictures. You made a nice saw and thanks for sharing about it. It is really neat to have the young ones get interested in tools too. Bowsaws can incorporate quite a range of design aspects. The lightest and strongest bowsaws would be ones that optimized preferred grain direction.

Take care,
Jim

[Dominic Greco]

I made the same saw as Dom, but I split mine. Its been really solid so far (its over a year old) and I really tighten mine quite a bit. I can't claim to have split it for strength though. The grain was so perfect (and I just finished watching an episode of the woodwright's shop) that splitting seemed easier than sawing.
.....Note that I bought the turned handles. All Hickory

I am so glad:D that you mentioned you made yours from Hickory, that's it's design is from TFWW, and that its worked great for the amount of time you've had it.

I also noticed that you made your saw with "flat cheeks" as opposed to the concave ones featured in the TFWW plans. Any specific reason for that?

[Dominic Greco]

Nice saw! I too recently made a few 12" bowsaws and used the blades and pins from TFWW. I made 8. Kept the best two, gave one to my Dad, sold two and have three saved for gifts. Along the way I learned a lot. Most importantly that they cut incredibly well. I used hickory and beech for all of them. Some have english walnut stretchers to reduce weight.

A few random thoughts in addition to the good advice already shared:

I think the most important design consideration is to get hard and somewhat flexible, straight and tight grained wood. I used hickory and beech for all of mine. Some have english walnut stretchers to reduce weight. Ideally you want an 8/4 board that is either flatsawn or quartersawn the whole length. The 8/4 stock gives you more options in terms of getting the flat grain orientation you want. Before you cut a board look at the end grain first and break the pieces down by saving the straightest/most flatsawn pieces for the sides and the more riftsawn pieces for the stretchers (which is good since it is more laterally stable).

Be sure to keep the holes for the handle pins snug. If the pins are a 1/4" in diameter, drill the holes through the side arms (wrong term?) a "smidge" smaller on your drill press (ie: 60/64"). Then with a non battery powered hand drill, gradually and slowly ream out the holes until the pins fit just right with just a small amount of friction. Creap up on the final size. Not too tight and not too loose. Nothing worse than a saw with sloppy fitting handles that you constantly have to support with a finger. Also, the handles should loosen up a bit in time after use and continued drying of the wood.

Make templates

I like square cheeks on my bowsaws. Try and set up your saw so that when it is under the tension, the cheeks and stretcher get pulled into square. What I mean is that you want the stretcher to be touching the bottom portion of the cheeks a little bit when the saw is not under operating tension. This takes a bit of trial and error, but results in a more rigid saw. I never got that good of rigidity with the rounded/scooped cheeks. The saws rocked/racked too much.

Thanks for your advice on grain orientation. It was very helpful when I sawed out the pieces last night. I say "sawed" but it really was a combination of splitting and sawing. I tried using my hatchet, but it wasn't up to the task. So I settled for a 2" wide chisel and went at it. That was a bit of a work out! Hickory is tough stuff!:eek:

I also used a template when I was making my first saw. I still have it and have used it to place my work piece on the blank for optimal grain alignment.

I also noted your comment about the "rounded/scooped cheeks". I noticed that the bowsaw Matt made had straight/flat cheeks as opposed to the concave ones shown in the TFWW plan. But if I remember correctly, Joel from TFWW states in the write up that you can make the cheeks flat. I need to re-read that section.

[Matt Wilson]

I also noticed that you made your saw with "flat cheeks" as opposed to the concave ones featured in the TFWW plans. Any specific reason for that?

Yes, I'm lazy! :p:o:D

Seriously though, I wasn't sure if I needed the extra curved surfaces. I figured I'd use it for a bit an see how I liked it before putting them in. I might put one in for my index finger (I'm right handed), but we'll see. I'm used to it the way it is.

So far I've found my saw is plenty strong. In all honesty, I probably over tighten it. When detentioning it I usually have to be careful the toggle does whip around and crack my fingers (I've had a couple of close calls).

BTW, I've recently discovered the best perk of owning this saw. Its great at cutting the waste away when cutting dovetails. I'm not sure why I never thought of trying it before, but with the smallest blade its fantastic. I struggled with a fret saw, but the extra size of the bowsaw really makes it easier to get a nice even cut.

[John Schreiber]

Matt,

Do you hold it by the long handle or the short handle? Do you wrap a finger around the frame? Would you do it differently if it were a larger saw?

I've never used one, so I'm trying to wrap my mind around what I wrap my fingers around.

[Matt Wilson]

Do you hold it by the long handle or the short handle?

The long handle. And I cut on the push stroke. I tried switching the blade so it cut on the pull stroke, but didn't like it that way.


Do you wrap a finger around the frame?

Mostly yes. It does work better that way. Sometimes I get lazy and don't though...


Would you do it differently if it were a larger saw?

I could be wrong, but every picture I've seen of a bigger saw in use the user holds the cheek part of the saw. I think on a bigger saw it would be too hard to handle it by just gripping the knob.

[Jim Paulson]

Matt and John,

The blades on my bowsaws are wider, 3/8", than what you are using Matt. I may want to make one with a really thin blade, but I think the beauty of this kind of saw is you find what works for you. On the saw I posted, I've been holding the handle closest to me, cutting on the push stroke, and holding the stretcher to help guide the cut.

Jim

[Danny Thompson]

Tom (I think?) from TFWW demo'd this saw for me a couple of months ago. His advice was to place the longer of the knobs in the cup of your hand, curl your middle, ring, and little fingers around the bottom of the knob, lay your thumb on one side of the knob, and extend your index finger beyond the knob to support the frame (which will be tilted slightly toward your index finger).

As you move through the curve of a cut, rotate the whole saw as a unit keeping the cheeks in stable relation to the blade as long as the frame is unobstructed. At some point you may find it necessary to rotate the blade in the frame (e.g., you are approaching the 90º point). Doing so will introduce twist in the blade, so with your free hand, reach to the back knob and rotate it to bring the blade in line. Then continue the cut. With practice you will be able to do this without interrupting the cutting motion.