Finish Question on that Sewing Machine.

[Dennis Peacock]

Well....I've been working in the shop today on that sewing machine restoration project I took on for a friend of mine.

It has taken me several days just to reglue the veneers that are coming apart and gluing the broken pieces back on the "thang".!! :eek:

I have decided to take Denatured Alcohol to the finish and some 4 aught steelwool and strip the finish off of it since many places didn't have finish on them any longer. The finish topcoat is shellac for sure, I just don't know "which" shellac they used. I have to order shellac to put back on it and I need to figure out if it is Garnet Shellac or Blonde. The stuff I'm taking off appears to have a semi-dark ting to it. I don't know if its from age or the finish itsself. What bare wood I've found, it is white and there appears to be no stain what-so-ever on the entire piece.

As dark as it was, I'm wondering if I should go back with Garnet Shellac. With the topcoat gone, the exposed wood is fairly ugly, but when wiped with alcohol, it reappears to be nice with a brownish-red hue to it.

I plan on ordering the shellac and shellac retarder from Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing. I thought that maybe 2 pounds of Garnet Shellac and 1 pound of Blonde Shellac should do nicely. I've never used Shellac in the flake form and have only used the shellac you get in the BB stores. Sherwin-Williams here doesn't carry nor can they get shellac, so I'm stuck with ordering the shellac and the Bekhol solvent for it.

Question: Should I use the solvent Behkol or can I just use the Denatured Alcohol I can get at the local BB stores? I have some of that and it appears to work nicely, but I've read somewhere that Behkol works much better for Shellac in flake form. Advice? Pointers? Recommendations?

Can I use household bleach and water to try and remove some of the water darkend stains in a few spots?

[Alan Turner]

Dennis,
It seems possible to me that the shellac used back when was orange. Homestead has the very best shellac, I think. I tried the Hock, and did not care for it at all. REgular alcohol will be fine. Not sure why you need a retarder. I use it only when spraying, and then only if I get orange peel from it drying too quickly. One pound makes 1/2 gallon of 2# cut, which is as thick as you will want it.f And that is a lot of shellac.
If you are planning to use it by hand, you might consider the 16 oz plastic bottles from Homestead as they are great dispensers to a rubber. If it thickens over time, just add a bit of alcohol to re-thin it. I love shellac bec. of its versatility.
Alan

[Jim Becker]

I believe that Alan is correct...shellac in days gone by was less likely to be some particular grade/color and was just "orange shellac". You can buy it that way or just by some Zinsser SealCoat and tint it the color you want with alcohol-soluable dye if you don't want to get into mixing, etc. The application is the same...

[Larry Harman]

I agree with Alan. Use Denatured alcohol--
If you want a website to finish expert, try this:
http://www.johnjacobmickley.net/Woodshop.htm.

The expert is Steve Mickley--he has several pages on applying shellac- I have followed his advice with good results. I prefer the wipe-on method with a rubber or pad--easy as can be. Good luck. Larry

[Cecil Arnold]

Two things you need to consider, if you haven't worked with shellac before. It takes at least a day for the flakes to dissolve. You can speed this up by using a coffee grinder to grind teh flakes into a power form, in which case they will dissolve in an afternoon with some adgitation. Secondly, be sure to strain the mixture into another container. And, I disagree on the orange, I think it's garnet.

[Dennis Peacock]

Larry,

I'll check out the web site as you and Jim recommended.

Cecil,

I have used shellac before, just not in flake form.

Here are a couple of pics to give you an idea of what I've done so far. Everything is disassembled. I have cleaned the old shellac off of many of the pieces and you can see white wood, yellow wood, stained wood and the little drawer is what is all looked like before I started. None of the drawers matched BTW.....some near black, dark brown, light brown....shellac in spots and raw, discolored wood in many spots. I have spent a week just regluing the veneers that were coming apart from the various pieces. :eek: After tonight, I should have just about all the loose or broken veneers repaired and will continue the cleaning process.

I think Orange Shellac would look to...well...."orange" as the total color is more "brown" than orange. I could be wrong...but hey...it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something. :D

Have a look at these pics and let me know what ya'll think.

[David Rose]

Dennis, I'll bet it's garnet. That drawer came out about the same color as what I have done with it. Your drawer is probably slightly darker.

I padded that maple bench that I built Cheryl with about 3/4 of a pound of shellac. It is finished inside and out. I ended up using about a 1 & 1/2 pound cut after I played around with others. I padded until all the grain was filled, then padded on a few more coats. Since it dries pretty fast, you can do it all in about the time it would take a coat or two of varnish to dry. And the stuff goes quite a way. I can't see that you would use more than a pound on the whole thing, but it might take a "hair" more than that.

I've only used the Behlen Master Super Blonde from Lee Valley and the Hock garnet. The Hock I got from ... will not dissolve! That is usually a sign that it is old. The Behlen will dissolve in under an hour if you keep shaking it. Or you can speed it with some heat or just let it set for a day. I always strain the mix but have never gotten anything visible from the super blonde.

I can't get Homestead on the phone. Maybe you can do better. I tried twice in two weeks, desperately trying to get the whole range of TransTints. I never got a return call. I finally gave up and used other tints for the project. I know Homestead stuff is tops as is Jeff's advice, but I find it difficult to acquire. If you have trouble check with Lee Valley and the Behlen product.

Something I've learned about padding is that if you start to get ridges using a motion with the grain, you should have already done a little cirular or other pattern motion. :eek: In the beginning, I put way more emphasis with the grain and kept getting ridges. They were easy to sand down but then they would reappear. I spend almost as much time in circular motion as in straight and have no problems with that now.

A yard of good linen cloth is worth the cost for the outer pad cover. I used t-shirt material for the inner and outer material and had more problems with lint and ridges and the cover wearing. I don't think you can ever wash all the lint out. A yard of linen will last the rest of your life probably. :rolleyes:

David

[Alan Turner]

I can't believe it is hard to reach Jeff Jewitt. When he is on vacation, and the "store" is closed, he leaves that on the office voicemail. I called a couple of weeks ago, on vac., left my name and # and he called for the order MOnday a.m. when he returned.
You can get transtint at Woodcraft. It is his product, and they are resellers. Same price. So, I like to give him my buisness since he must have to severly discount the tint to Woodcraft for them to handle it. I like to give my trade to the niche players in the OEM market. Homestead; L-N, etc.
As far as a rubber, Jeff sells Muslin for about $4 a yard, and one yard is a lifetime supply. It is new, so just run it through the washing machine and dryer once. He also sells lint-free surgical cheesecloth for the innards of the rubber, and I have his, but you might find it from a friend who works around a hospital or medical office. A half a pound is an awful lot.
I do think his shellac is terrific. I make mine in a mayo jar. It lasts for at least 6 months, so made, but I don't think I ever have it that long. I make mine in a #2 cut, and adjsut, depending upon use, but never heavier. Wrap a strip of teflon tape around the threads and it will never stick. I just keep using mine.
I usually don't mess with diff colors of shellac, and get his med. blonde (can't recall the name) dewaxed, and then adjust the color with tints. Get a med. brown, red, green, yellow, and honey amber, and you can make just about anything. I tend to use the brown, and then either heat it with the red, or cool it with green, or orange it with red and yellow. The honey amber I typically use for a base coat as a water stain.
Even just on shop jigs, I tend to wipe a quick caot on, brush sand it, and apply a second coat. Done in 30 min., total. Jig is sealed, eash to dust off, stabalized a bit, etc.
Alan

[Steven Wilson]

Dennis,

I probably wouldn't go with Garnet or Orange shellac. If the piece is fairly old then I would try a seedlac shellac which you strain before using (to get rid of the bug pieces). Seedlac is the typical shellac of times past and is fairly unprocessed. Baring that then I would turn to a Button lac (Kusmi 1 or 2). I've had good results refinishing plane totes and repairing some of my parents antiques (early 1900's) with Kusmi shellac. For cherry I really like the Kusmi 2 (red brown shellac) much more than Garnet.

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis,

I probably wouldn't go with Garnet or Orange shellac. If the piece is fairly old then I would try a seedlac shellac which you strain before using (to get rid of the bug pieces). Seedlac is the typical shellac of times past and is fairly unprocessed. Baring that then I would turn to a Button lac (Kusmi 1 or 2). I've had good results refinishing plane totes and repairing some of my parents antiques (early 1900's) with Kusmi shellac. For cherry I really like the Kusmi 2 (red brown shellac) much more than Garnet.

Steve,

I'm glad you chimed in here.!!!! I will need to order some shellac in the next few days to have it here and ready for use. The piece has NEVER been refinished and was made sometime in the year 1900. It's an "N" series serial number and those were made in 1900. The "L" series started in 1901. The finish comes on really nicely with a scotch pad and denatured alcohol. I just can't seem to find a way to get the stains out of the wood.

If I don't get any more votes...I'm going to order some Seedlac, Garnet, and some Kusmi #2 (along with some dies) to see how I can make it all match since the existing finish didn't match "anywhere".!!! :rolleyes:

[Howard Acheson]

>>Can I use household bleach and water to try and remove some of the water darkend stains in a few spots?

The bleach to use to remove water stains from wood is oxalic acid. It's available from paint stores and hardware stores. Household bleach will do it. But, it will remove dye stain.

Edit-Should read "Household bleach will NOT do it."

[Steven Wilson]

Steve,
If I don't get any more votes...I'm going to order some Seedlac, Garnet, and some Kusmi #2 (along with some dies) to see how I can make it all match since the existing finish didn't match "anywhere".!!! :rolleyes:

Back in the Paddylac days (O'Deens www.shellac.net) I ordered a pound of most everything. As long as you keep the bag sealed and keep it in a cool dark place the shellac flakes will last for years. Homestead is a good place to order from as well as the link off of www.shellac.net. The Transtint dyes work very well as a colorant in any of the shellacs. A good Garnet, Kusmi (and/or button lac or seedlac depending on supplier), orange, and blonde shellacs will give you enough variety to work on getting the color you want. The Transtint red-brown or medium-brown work well to give a bit more color to the shellac. Once you've established the color then you can use blonde shellac for the last few coats. Using a good dark wax will also add a nice effect, and adding some asphaltum (in roofing tar or sealer I forget) to the wax can give you that nice, old, "dirty finish" look. Have fun and try a bit on scrap first.

[Dennis Peacock]

Back in the Paddylac days (O'Deens www.shellac.net) I ordered a pound of most everything. As long as you keep the bag sealed and keep it in a cool dark place the shellac flakes will last for years. Homestead is a good place to order from as well as the link off of www.shellac.net. The Transtint dyes work very well as a colorant in any of the shellacs. A good Garnet, Kusmi (and/or button lac or seedlac depending on supplier), orange, and blonde shellacs will give you enough variety to work on getting the color you want. The Transtint red-brown or medium-brown work well to give a bit more color to the shellac. Once you've established the color then you can use blonde shellac for the last few coats. Using a good dark wax will also add a nice effect, and adding some asphaltum (in roofing tar or sealer I forget) to the wax can give you that nice, old, "dirty finish" look. Have fun and try a bit on scrap first.


Steve,

Just got a reply back from Jeff Jewitt. He said I should use dewaxed orange shellac and if needed, tint with Transtint. He also said that:

dewaxed orange shellac is the same color (hue) as dewaxed dark garnet except it's a tad-bit lighter.
dewaxed dark garnet is a lot harder to apply consistantly by hand and should be sprayed instead of hand applied.

So now....I'm really confused. I guess I'll have to order several colors of shellac and dyes and try my hand at it. :D

[Steven Wilson]

So now....I'm really confused. I guess I'll have to order several colors of shellac and dyes and try my hand at it. :D

Since the flakes will last if stored right having a bunch of different shellac around is a great idea.

[David Rose]

Hey, Alan,

I must have hit the Jewitts at a bad time or something. I left messages twice, but machines do fail, so... This was about 2 or 3 months ago.

The last time I checked Woodcraft only carried the basic colors, not the "wood tones". And I wanted to get Jeff's advice and support him directly. He does (did?) offer a discount to the public on quantities.

Thanks for the tip on the teflon tape. That is a good one. Just a little drip around the jar threads really sticks a canning jar ring in place. After funneling/straining it into a squeeze bottle, that "little drip" seems to always show up. I'll give the tape a try.

David


I can't believe it is hard to reach Jeff Jewitt. When he is on vacation, and the "store" is closed, he leaves that on the office voicemail. I called a couple of weeks ago, on vac., left my name and # and he called for the order MOnday a.m. when he returned.
You can get transtint at Woodcraft. It is his product, and they are resellers. Same price. So, I like to give him my buisness since he must have to severly discount the tint to Woodcraft for them to handle it. I like to give my trade to the niche players in the OEM market. Homestead; L-N, etc.
As far as a rubber, Jeff sells Muslin for about $4 a yard, and one yard is a lifetime supply. It is new, so just run it through the washing machine and dryer once. He also sells lint-free surgical cheesecloth for the innards of the rubber, and I have his, but you might find it from a friend who works around a hospital or medical office. A half a pound is an awful lot.
I do think his shellac is terrific. I make mine in a mayo jar. It lasts for at least 6 months, so made, but I don't think I ever have it that long. I make mine in a #2 cut, and adjsut, depending upon use, but never heavier. Wrap a strip of teflon tape around the threads and it will never stick. I just keep using mine.
I usually don't mess with diff colors of shellac, and get his med. blonde (can't recall the name) dewaxed, and then adjust the color with tints. Get a med. brown, red, green, yellow, and honey amber, and you can make just about anything. I tend to use the brown, and then either heat it with the red, or cool it with green, or orange it with red and yellow. The honey amber I typically use for a base coat as a water stain.
Even just on shop jigs, I tend to wipe a quick caot on, brush sand it, and apply a second coat. Done in 30 min., total. Jig is sealed, eash to dust off, stabalized a bit, etc.
Alan

[Alan Turner]

You know, as I think about it, even the teflon tape idea may well have come from Jeff. I took a 3 day seminar from him a while ago, and learned more than I can believe.
Alan