help. noob making first TS buy

[Will Hon]

Hi, i'm a hobbyist looking to buy my first table saw. I'll mostly be building furniture... think Greene and Greene and Gustav Stickley. There are a couple of listings on the local CL right now that are kind of intriguing, but pls feel free to make suggestions. I'm on a relatively low budget... One big concern i would like to have addressed is, will a 1.5/1.75 hp motor suffice for cutting hardwoods or should you really go with a 3 hp? Any other constructive suggestions are more than welcome.

Here are the local listings:

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/tls/1185677174.html]

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/tls/1184674362.html

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/tls/1164118577.html

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/tls/1166397957.html

Thanks in advance.

[Jacob Griffith]

Hi Will,

There are others here that can provide more detail here, but in general, buy as good of a TS as you can afford. I have the PM 64 saw at home and its a fine saw for a contractors saw. I don't regret buying it. I cut mostly 3/4 inch stock and have never wanted for more power with my 1.5 hp motor, even on hard maple. If you are going to cut thicker stock, it may be a different story. Anyway, the PM64 is not a cabinet saw, but its a fine contractors saw.


PS...that saw with 30" rails is selling new for $999 at most places. With that info, you might be able to get the used one cheaper.

[Nick Abbott]

It looks like you have some good choices there Will. For a first TS any one of them should do nicely.

[Eric Larsen]

Don't be in a big hurry when buying used equipment. You can spend days (even weeks) scanning Craigslist, and then the "monster deal" comes around -- $200 for a rock solid Unisaw, for instance.

Tips:

1) Have cash on hand for the monster deal. Often the seller will post the ad on a day when banks are closed (and you can only get so much out of an ATM). Have $1,000 in a safe, ready to go, in twenties.

2) Have a truck, a friend's truck, or the phone number of a place to rent a truck with a lift gate. When I got my saw (and jointer, it was a combo deal), I needed a truck with a lift gate.

3) Check that Craigslist "tools" section three or four times each day. Many sellers place importance on the first person to email or call them. If you can convince them that 1) the machine is going to a good home, 2) you have cash on hand and 3) you'll be right over -- you get the machine.

(Gosh, I'm sure I've posted this exact message before. I'm getting deja vu.)

4) Call or email each and every seller that posts a "mystery ad." Such as "Table saw - $100 (no pic)." It might be a piece of junk. It might be a pristine Unisaw.

5) Don't choose your saw based on the stuff that gets posted on Craigslist. Choose three or four saws. THEN scan the ads and wait for a match. I decided on a left-tilt, 5hp cabinet saw. It took a month to find it, and it came with a free 8" jointer. Bonus.

6) You didn't mention your experience. Buying used can save you a boatload of money. It can also mean buying someone's problem, and spending a boatload of money.

7) In the case of table saws -- bring a 4' level, a machinist's square, a miter gauge (to check the slop in the slots) and check everything. Light rust? No fence? No big deal.

Cupped table with a cracked trunnion? Burnt out motor? Major play in the worm assembly? Wait for a better saw.

8) Be ready to pull the trigger, but remember that a better deal is just around the corner. After paying $750 (I think it was $750) for a Powermatic 66 and a Powermatic 60, I found a first rate Unisaw going for $150.


(I'm certain I did this more in depth previously. I'll see if I can find it....)


EDIT -- Found it. Good thing I have a fairly low post count.

More tips (from 2008):

Here are some tricks to CL...

1) Figure out when people list the good stuff. In my neck of the desert, it's weeknights from 8-10 p.m. and weekend mornings, particularly Saturday before 10 a.m. When we were in the market for a leather living room set, that's when we searched. It took three weeks to get what we wanted, but we got it for less than 20% of new. Definitely worth the effort.

3) Sellers are supposed to delete their ad after the item sells. When I bought that $75 lathe, the ad was up for a grand total of 20 minutes. I saw it, made the call, and the seller deleted the ad as I was on my way to buy it. The reason you're not finding good stuff might be it's getting deleted before you can find it.

5) I occasionally find great tool deals in the "materials" section. Give it a glance every day. Sometimes I also find wood deals. It's worth it.

7) crazedlist -- google it. It allows you to search multiple CL sites. If I was searching for a cabinet saw, I would search every CL site from L.A. to Salt Lake, because that's as far as I'm willing to drive for a great deal. I also crazedlist anything that could be shipped -- like a dovetail jig.

8) Any ad that starts "Cabinet Shop Closing" gets me on the phone immediately. I speed dial these until someone picks up. This is where the best deals are. They usually won't list clamps, wood, stain, or fasteners in their ad -- but they have them, cheap.

[Greg Magone]

I own the machine in the last Craigslist ad, except I have a different fence and don't have the extensions. Tablesaw cuts straight and I'm happy with it. I paid $265 for mine.

Accessories get expensive, but are necessary. Putting together a shop is expensive. But if you buy used at good prices and take care of them, you (or your heirs) can sell your tools later for what you paid for it, so it's not a net expense in the long run. Buy new tools and you're guaranteed to lose money on them.

Enjoy.

[scott spencer]

All 4 of those saws appear to be decent deals, and all are sufficient saws for a hobbyist. The DW deal is pretty attractive IMO, and that saw moves the motor inside the enclosure, which has a number of advantages. With good alignment and good blade selection, 1-1/2 to 1-3/4hp should be ample power for a hobby shop.

[Russ Boyd]

Of those choices, I like the Delta platinum saw. Rip capacity is VERY important. I would prefer a 3h.p., but for bucks I know this saw well do the job. My last saw was similar. Same fence and mobile base was great if you need to move it around. Bought it used for $300, used it for a few years and sold it to the first guy for $150. Like I said, though, if you can swing it go for 3 horse. You won't regret it. Have fun shopping. Russ

[Greg Cole]

Hi Will,
I happen to live in KC as well and have a General 50-185 I'd sell as it's not been used in 8 months or so now. I got a heckuva deal on a Steel City 3HP cabinet saw, if not for that deal I'd still be using the General.
It has the 7' rails with the biesemeyer clone fence, 2HP motor, link belt, MJ splitter, phenolic ZCI, dado throat plate & factory guard-splitter assembly.
I also have a very nice sled with t-tracks etc on it that I'd offer along with the saw.
PM me if you want to take a look at the saw, I'm up by the airport.

Greg

[John Carlo]

For me, I want a saw that has the capacity to mount a full dado stack and the horses to spin it without bogging down.

[Peter Pedisich]

Will,

I think most of those saws look good, with decent fences.

But...

You will be much happier over time if you get a saw with the trunions attached to the cabinet, and not the table.

Pete

[Tim Thomas]

I've got a 2 HP Shop Fox contractor style saw and it has worked great for me for the past 2 years. I think any of the saws you listed would serve you well, provided that they don't have any mechanical issues. I do recommend putting in a good quality blade as it does make a HUGE difference in the performance of the saw and the quality of the cut you get. I have 2 Freud blades, one for ripping and one for crosscuts, and they were both good purchases. About $50 per blade, but I think they were worth it.

The good thing about buying used tools is that if you take care of them you will probably be able to resell for about the same as what you paid. So if you do find that you want to upgrade down the road you won't really lose out on the deal money-wise. Don't be scared of used tools. I have a 6 inch jointer that I bought at a yard sale that looked horrible because of a lot of surface rust on the tables. Paid just $100, took it home and cleaned it up. Now it looks and runs like new and I saved about $350.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Will, my first TS was a 1 1/4 HP machine and it worked well for everything I used it for, including ripping 10/4 oak with a sharp standard ripping blade.

I eventually replaced my contractor saw with a General 650.

The two issues I had with contractor saws was the poor fence, and the limited distance from the front of the table to the saw blade. This limits how wide of a piece you can crosscut.

If you find a contractor saw in good condition it will make a great first TS, as long as you purchase a good ripping blade (24 Teeth), a good crosscut blade (60 to 80 teeth) and eventually a good stacked dado set.

High quality blades, of the proper tooth configuration make all the difference.

From a safety standpoint, unless you're great at finding guards and splitters on the used markets, do not buy a saw that's missing those two important safety items.

Good luck........Regards, Rod.

[Will Hon]

Thanks everyone for all the input, i really do appreciate it.

As a subsidiary question, if i were to stay in the market a little longer and keep looking, what saws would you all think i should keep an eye out for that would fit a budget and my needs.

And pls feel free to keep adding to the initial post as well!

btw... pm sent greg

[Clint Schlosser]

Looks like a good choice. You might also want to check out some of the local wood working guilds. I am also in KC and am a member of the woodturning and woodworking guilds. Just google for the KC guilds and they will come up. The people there are very helpful with those noob questions :) I have not been woodworking for very long but I have learned the most at the monthly meetings by just talking to people and the presenters.

[Paul Ryan]

It depends how long you are willing to wait, how much $$ you have to spend, if you have to room and space for a full fleged cabinet saw, and what kind of electrical options you have in your shop. There is no sense in buying a 3hp cabinet saw if you can't install or have 220 installed in your shop. 2nd if you are willing to wait up to a year, I think you should be able to find a uni for under $500 in the metro area you are. In the same time you should be able to find a PM 66 for under 1K. If you have up to $1500 to spend I have seen PM66's under 2 years old sell for that. If you are trying to stay at the $600 or lower I would hold out for a good used uni, maybe a grizzly 1023 will come up, a steel city saw, may be a jet, the sky is the limit if you are willing to wait. Of the 4 you posted I think the dewalt is the best of them all. It has gotten good reviews, but I wouldn't pay him more than $500. If you can get it for $500 that would be a good buy.

[Andy Bardowell]

I started with a contractor’s saw Will, recently upgraded to a cabinet saw and now wonder why the hell did I start with a contractor’s the difference is night and day. The answer is simple of course you want to see if you like this woodworking stuff before dropping $1500 - $1800 on a used cabinet saw or about $3500 new. I’m sorry to say Will that you will be hooked just like the rest of us so if you can afford it buy the saw once, cabinets are so durable and to Eric’s point you may find one at a good price if you’re willing to wait. After saying all that I like that Dewalt.

[Bill Huber]

I started with a contractor’s saw Will, recently upgraded to a cabinet saw and now wonder why the hell did I start with a contractor’s the difference is night and day. The answer is simple of course you want to see if you like this woodworking stuff before dropping $1500 - $1800 on a used cabinet saw or about $3500 new. I’m sorry to say Will that you will be hooked just like the rest of us so if you can afford it buy the saw once, cabinets are so durable and to Eric’s point you may find one at a good price if you’re willing to wait. After saying all that I like that Dewalt.

I guess my question to you is what is the big difference (night and day)?

I have a Jet contractor saw and it is setup correctly and will cut a board square, the blade will tilt to 45 degrees and make a good cut. The blade goes up and down really easy. It is somewhat under powered but I still cut 8/4 with no problem. I can cut my own edge banding, I can use a dado blade and it has a dust collector port, I know its not as good as a cabinet dust collector but it does a good job.

So what would I gain if I had a cabinet saw. Now I know I can't have one because I don't have 220 in my little shop and I don't have the room. The weight would also be a problem with my wood floor.

But I would still like to know what the big difference is.

[Will Hon]

But I would still like to know what the big difference is.

as would i Bill, because deciding between a contractor saw "more in my budget" and a cabinet saw "usually not in the best shape in my budget" has been a lingering question of mine.

[scott spencer]

Not having a motor hanging out the back also has several advantages. Though both will make the needed cuts of a hobbyist, a 3hp cabinet saw is simply more powerful, more robust, more accurate, more massive, more stable, and more reliable than a contractor saw. With good alignment and good blade selection, a contractor saw or hybrid will cut the vast majority of what's needed. A 3hp saw will hog through the bulk of it without hesitation, and is less sensitive to the blade selection, and doesn't work as hard. It's much like describing the difference between a 4 cylinder compact pickup and a diesel 1-ton truck. Duty rating differences are significant though both can do the task.


3hp General 350:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/General350.jpg

3hp Griz 1023:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/g1023s_trunnion.jpg

3hp Steel City deluxe cabinet saw:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/sccabtrunnion-1.jpg

Delta contractor saw:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/contractorsawunderpinnings.jpg

Ridgid contractor saw:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Ridgid_UnderTheHood_Big.jpg

Motor of a Ridgid contractor saw:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/Ridgid_B3650_backSide.gif

[Bill Huber]

Not having a motor hanging out the back also has several advantages. Though both will make the needed cuts of a hobbyist, a 3hp cabinet saw is simply more powerful, more robust, more accurate, more massive, more stable, and more reliable than a contractor saw. With good alignment and good blade selection, a contractor saw or hybrid will cut the vast majority of what's needed. A 3hp saw will hog through the bulk of it without hesitation, and is less sensitive to the blade selection, and doesn't work as hard. It's much like describing the difference between a 4 cylinder compact pickup and a diesel 1-ton truck. Duty rating differences are significant though both can do the task.


I guess I can see some of your points.

My motor does not hang out the back.
I guess I really can not see the more accurate, square is square, I set my saw up when I got it and have checked it at different times and its still right on.
My old contractor saw only lasted me and my dad 54 years and now someone else has it.

I guess if I had a shop and made a living at it I could really see a cabinet saw just for the power if nothing else. But as a hobbyist I just can't see it.

But like everything to each his own, I am sure most people can not see why I have a $1700 camera when you can get a good camera for $200.

[Andy Bardowell]

My contractor was an old Craftsman Bill not the quality of your Jet and you’re right a cabinet is really overkill for a hobbyist. I think yours is a hybrid Bill the next generation of contractor saw and actually I think the Dewalt in Wills original post was one of the first hybrids. It’s really a matter of preference, I went back and forth between purchasing a used cabinet or the new Steel City hybrid with trunnion mounted to the cabinet and granite top but in the end chose the PM66 and haven’t regretted the decision.

[scott spencer]

Bill, in my case it really wasn't a matter of needing more performance...it was just a matter of always wanting one. I've marveled over the construction, mass, and power for a long time, even though there was nothing my hybrid couldn't do well for me. When the right deal came along ($903 shipped), I said goodbye to my much loved 22124. My 3hp Shop Fox W1677 doesn't give me any more capability, but I like the construction of the machine, the power, never being concerned about how tough a piece of wood is, and I like knowing that the saw is never working very hard....it should last decades. It's a hobby, and it's one of those things that adds to my enjoyment of it, probably much like your camera and the tube amps on my stereo.

The accuracy advantages tend to come into play when the blade is beveled, which is rare (and usually minor), and also from the fact that the cab saws are very easy to align and don't run the risk of the motor catching something and whacking the alignment out....BTDT!! :(

[Paul Ryan]

Most cabinet saws come with much better fences than contractor saws. Some of the cost associated with the cabinet saw is for the better fence. You can add a fence from a cabinet saw to most contractor saws but that is more cost then. If you buy a contractor saw for $400 uses and then add a biesemeyer fence for another $300 now you have $700 into a contractor saw. I have seen plenty of delta contractor saws with uni-fences and bies' but they go higher.

I had a jet contractor saw much like Bill's with out the motor hanging out the back, it was a real nice saw, but the fence was a piece of HORSE MANURE. The jet fence is no different then the fence that came with my $150 craftsman table saw. I hated it, no adjustments, never stayed square. That is the reason I upgraded to a SC saw. I had almost $500 in to the jet contractor, then to add a $300 fence and I still had a contractor saw with bad bad dust collection. The SC upgrade was definately worth it. It was just a much better saw. Since then I have again upgraded to a SS. If you are interested in what I think about that saw search SS professional cabinet saw.