Logos

[Scott M Smith]

I would just like some input. Which logo do you like best:

Logo 1
http://surrealisticsystems.com/images/lzr/csra_logo2half.png

Logo 2
http://surrealisticsystems.com/images/lzr/csra_logodarhalf.png

Thank you!

[Dave Lock]

I prefer the squareness of Logo 1. I like the font you have chosen and for me, looks more professional.

Regards

Dave.

[Doug Griffith]

Hi Scott,
Don't take it personally but I'll be brutally honest. They are both pretty nasty. The one in the Hobo font is just wrong. The other may be doable with quite a few tweeks. See my attached image. There are all sorts of misalignments and bad tangents (C,D), the "A" gets lost by the arc (B), the "R" is jacked up (A), it looks like the first 3 letters are horizontally scaled while the "A" isn't, there is bad kerning where the the "R" and "A" touch (E). The difference in horizontally scaling between the large and small text is very noticeable.

Since your logo represents your quality of work, make sure its perfect.

Also... Design your logo in black and white (not greyscale) and make sure it works at a very small scale. You won't always have the luxury of color or size.

Cheers,
Doug

[Jeff Bratt]

The "old timey" feel of #2 just doesn't seem to fit (plus it uses 2 different fonts). I like the more modern look of logo #1. In addition to the comments above, I think the Ls in the name look like backwards Js. Don't make your name hard to read... keep working on it!

[Scott M Smith]

I thought I had corrected the "A"...The "R" is that way by default. It is just harder to see that in the smaller one.

[Dee Gallo]

I would rework the whole thing. Remember that a logo should give you instant recognition. You are making the viewer work too hard.

The font on sample 1 is more appropriate but the A gets wasted. This layout seems more like it's for a welding company than a laser company. It's very heavy.

The thin line through the letters is ineffective at best, confusing at worst. You need to balance your elements and pick a focal point. Right now everything is equal and nothing is important.

If you like these elements, I recommend you move them around to create at least 6 different variations (font size, different weights, spacing, centering, outline, positive/negative space, etc...and yes, black and white only. You may come up with something you can use.

This is a start. If these are your first 2, make about 8 more different designs, step back and pick out the things you like and the things you don't like. Rearrange and do 3 more variations of the result. Worry about color comps and such at the end.

Logo design is complex and important. It should work on a matchbook and a truck side. These logos as they stand tell the viewer they represent an amateur. With such a lot of type, you might be better off to separate the logo symbol from the company name.

[Dee Gallo]

Ran out of room, I think. To continue:

Also, phrasing is important. Is the name CSRA Laser, LLC or is it CSRA, Laser LLC?

Keep going, you'll get there!

cheers, dee

[Doug Griffith]

The thing about typefaces, especially these days, is that they are designed by people who can make mistakes. That little knick in the "R" just isn't cohesive with the other letters. It used to be that creating typefaces was an elusive art left to professionals. Now there are tons of horrible typefaces to choose from.

In the case of a logo, the letters will almost always have to be modified to make them "work" together.

For those who don't know type speak:
Typeface = a collection of fonts with a coordinated set of stylistic elements.
Font = a specific member of a typeface collection

Cheers,
Doug

[Doug Griffith]

I personally think that logo design should start with an icon. Not the little things on your desktop but a branding symbol. The Nike swoop is a good example. You don't need the word Nike to know who it represents.

[Scott M Smith]

Well, for anything else, I'm drawing a big blank, but I will work on it.

[Scott M Smith]

Ran out of room, I think. To continue:

Also, phrasing is important. Is the name CSRA Laser, LLC or is it CSRA, Laser LLC?

Keep going, you'll get there!

cheers, dee

Its CSRA Lasers, LLC

[Dee Gallo]

Scott,

I think you should work on paper first (ancient technology, I know) and just make symbol marks and write the name at least 10 different ways. Don't judge, just scribble away.

Sit back and study what you've done - don't worry if it looks like crap. The thinking is the important thing. Which marks make you feel right when you think about your business? You are relying on the computer and using it as a crutch which limits you to whatever you have in there. It's just another tool. Once you decide on something with promise, THEN work on your computer to create a more perfect version of your scribble.

Typically, your first 2 attempts will be trite and common solutions to the problem. I can't tell you how many other logos I've seen like the ones you already produced. Your 3rd will be a bit better but not much. Your 4th, 5th and 6th will contain good usable elements. Your 7th and 8th will have variation suggestions you can use. Your 9th and 10th will be garbage or rehashes because you're out of steam. But they will all tell you something.

It's a process, not an answer to a math question. 2 different designers will come up with drastically different concepts.

Don't give up, :) dee

[Tom Bull]

The "cut" line looks like a good idea, 'cept it may be too abstract for the average consumer to know what's going on.

[Doug Griffith]

Well, for anything else, I'm drawing a big blank, but I will work on it.

One thing you can do for brainstorming is type the letters "CSRA" in as many different headline typefaces you have on the same page. You may see some "magic" in how letters interact with each other.

Also try image Googling your letters.

I'm not sure what CSRA stands for but it may offer some hints as well.

Cheers,
Doug

[Scott M Smith]

CSRA stands for Central Savannah River Area. I am hating this......I really like my first design, but well, I am taking your input to heart. Maybe even a name change of the business......I think I have one decent idea, just now have to figure out how to draw it on the PC

[Mike Null]

Always design your logo to work in black and white as well as color.

The Nike swoosh is not a very good example of something for a small business simply because Nike spends hundreds of millions in their marketing effort to get you to recognize the swoosh.

The most important thing to do is name your business well then design a logo around that.

[Stephen Beckham]

Aw - what the heck... Lighten up!

Hey - New guy (Scott) - great start! It's good that you're aware of your entry level status and are asking for advice. Most will just flounder thinking they're doing okay until it's too late. I'm still floundering on most subjects and I'm quick to admit I have to get help from time to time.

I like logo 1. I would tweak a bit of course, but I guess that would make you and I the only two here that couldn't get our design just right the first time. I'm on my third or fourth redraw in three years of business. I haven't had a customer come in yet and say "Man, I really wanted to buy something, but you'll have to fix you logo before I'll come back!":D

Well, it's late - I'm tired - and I really needed the chance to poke and jab some tonight - hope no one was offended! Especially the new guy...

Welcome to the Creek Scott - I'd love to see some other iterations if you're still willing to put it out there - I sent you a PM to give you my suggestions!

[Jack Harper]

CSRA stands for Central Savannah River Area. I am hating this......I really like my first design, but well, I am taking your input to heart. Maybe even a name change of the business......I think I have one decent idea, just now have to figure out how to draw it on the PC

If you have already filed your corporate papers, just file a DBA (doing business as) and use a marketing name. The name should be simple, to the point and informative. I shake my head all the time when I see a business name that has no reference to their business. You can get away with it so long as you put the millions behind it in marketing, after all, we all know Nike.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

I think you should work on paper first (ancient technology, I know) and just make symbol marks and write the name at least 10 different ways. Don't judge, just scribble away.


LOL. This statement comes from the woman who so clearly has artistic talent! Dee, there are many of us who even with the best intent can turn the printed word "cat" into what looks like a spider walking across the page.

For those of us who find using a pen challenging, we can use our computer in the same manner as you describe above. Simply type the word and make a dozen or so copies of it and start selecting different fonts to compare until you find a typeface that you like. Then select only fonts that have similar typefaces and go from there.

Creating a logo is not always easy and if you look at many companies, they have all changed their font or logo at least once.

[Scott Shepherd]

Why not Savannah River Laser Engraving? Not sure that putting Central or Area says anything about your company, other than you are making yourself VERY local by saying that, in my opinion.

You can do all sorts of nice stuff with the word Savannah. I'd spell it out and be proud of it, lots of heritage and history in that river, so use it to your advantage instead of hiding it in an acronym.

Just my opinion.

[Dee Gallo]

Why not Savannah River Laser Engraving? Not sure that putting Central or Area says anything about your company, other than you are making yourself VERY local by saying that, in my opinion.

You can do all sorts of nice stuff with the word Savannah. I'd spell it out and be proud of it, lots of heritage and history in that river, so use it to your advantage instead of hiding it in an acronym.

Just my opinion.

I agree with Scott, that has a very nice sound to it and lends itself to lots of design options.

[Tim Bateson]

I also agree with Scott, "Savannah River Laser Engraving" sounds like a winner.
I went through a couple name changes and many logos before I was happy. I still don't rule out a change down the road. It's always a work in progress until you have your own Nike swish.

[Dennis Brooker]

Scott - I agree with a lot of the input you're getting - A good logo is something that takes time and effort - I've designed logos for people over the years and the first question I ask them is "Do you want a good logo or a cheap logo?" - I would also ask is laser engraving the "only" service that you ever plan to offer in your business? If you plan to offer other services in the future then that may have some effect on the name of your business and hence your logo as well - Just something to consider - Dennis Brooker

[Scott M Smith]

I like that name also. My wife is leaning to 3 of Hearts Laser Engraving. Her last name is(was) Hart.

[Scott Shepherd]

If you plan to have a website and have customers googling you, it would be a lot easier and cheaper to get to the top of the search engine lists with Savannah River Laser Engraving than it would with 3 of Hearts. 3 of hearts will automatically put every playing card thread on the internet in your search.

It's not quite that cut and dry, but you have to consider things like web searching when you come up with a name. You could easily paint yourself into a corner than will all but eliminate your ability to market on the internet using search engines. For instance, you wouldn't want to open a sign shop calling it Signs for Relators if you planned on going web based. It would cost you a small fortune, well into the thousands of dollars per month, to get up the list on that one.

Now is the time to figure all that stuff out. Sounds like you're thinking it through. No need to rush, figure it all out and then do it!

[Doug Griffith]

My first question is always "who's your target market?".

When coming up with a name, I always Google it and see where it stands. I then do a whois.net search to see if the domain is available. Then I put together a loose marketing and business plan. After that, I pretty much know my direction and start working on design. It's all subjective from there (as long as it looks professional and doesn't have obvious design errors - ie. tangents). Once again, it needs to work in B/W and at a very small scale.

Oh, I like Savannah River Laser Engraving as well. It has style.

Cheers,
Doug

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with Scott



I also agree with Scott



I like Savannah River Laser Engraving as well. It has style.

Holy Smoke, you mean I had a good idea? :eek::eek::eek:

:::::marking calendar:::::::

Clearly, it must be close to Miller Time :rolleyes:

[Jim Coffee]

While I do like "Savannah River Laser Engraving" I think that I would drop the words "Laser Engraving" from the name. I think that one day "laser engraving" will be old words.

In my case I've used the words "Studios". There are many other words that can be chosen. Keep in mind...what will the customer be looking for?

[Dee Gallo]

Jim has a good point - similar to what Dennis asked about whether laser engraving is the only thing you will be doing. Very few of us on the Creek do ONLY laser engraving. If you are considering other names, you might want to think about that.

While you're at it, why not consider Three Harts (adding Engraving/Laser)- referring to deer? This would use your wife's maiden name, preferred number and give you lots of graphic things to play with for your logo/icon.

Then, if you move from the Savannah River area your name and logo can go with you.

just brainstorming, dee

[Mike Null]

I disagree with removing engraving from the name. If you only had one word in the name it should be engraving. If you want to sub-feature other things that's ok but don't take out engraving.

It is not good to have people guessing what you do.

[Scott M Smith]

Well it looks like 3 Harts is a business in Texas already. Three Harts is a business in FL. I came up with some logo ideas, but all I have here at work is paint, so hopefully you can see the general idea that I am going for.

[Tim Bateson]

Scott, your sr1.bmp looks like a good start.

[Jim Kountz]

Well if it hadnt been pointed out that the A was smaller me and the other 5 people in the room with me would have never noticed. The only one that got it was my sister who was an art major. For the layman its a great looking logo. For the few artists out there who see it and go "man thats horrible" I wouldnt worry about it. The only thing I didnt like was the A was partially covered by the starry thing. Maybe reduce the size of that and it looks steller to me.
Nice logo!!

[Scott M Smith]

Thank you. Too bad that logo is out the window! I'm sitting here at my real job sketching things up and realizing how scary it will be to actually create them on the computer! Here are two more ideas.

[Dee Gallo]

Scott,

Keep it simple, don't try to draw a picture. Here are some very simple designs using basic shapes, suggestions of "river" shapes, basic typeface, contrast in black and white only and variations of the same thing... and done in CorelDraw for you.

As you can see on the bottom one, an unusual typeface might be a good thing...or a bad thing. Is it hard to read? Does it grab attention? These are the things you need to consider.

These are not by any means logos I want you to use, but to learn from. I would not consider any of them "done", but a starting point for discussion about what you like, what you don't like, what parts you relate to, how you would rearrange things, etc. There are literally a thousand ways to go with this. An idea for a logo does not just appear completed, it evolves.

Hopefully these will help get you started in the process.

cheers, dee

[Scott Shepherd]

Well, that about wraps that up! Nice job Dee, for somethings you said are just rough ideas for him to think about and learn from. Beautiful work, simple, refined, just all around nice looking polished work. Thanks for sharing that.

I'm envious of artist's abilities to just whip out things like that.

Great looking stuff :)

[Tim Bateson]

Dee, Where were you when I was working on mine? You may have a nack here for a sideline.

[Scott M Smith]

Very impressive Dee! I wish I had the talent for that. I like how you did the river. How did you do that?

[Scott M Smith]

Well, I have learned a lot in the last hour. Here is my futile attempt. I can't make my water look as good as Dee did. Another issue I came across was the lettering. I removed the fill on the SR and added a black line around it. When I moved it in, it disappeared. So I right clicked it and had it go to front and still did not show up. The only way I could figure out how to get it to work was to remove the fill in the shape, move the letter in and do a smart fill.

[David Fairfield]

This is a great thread! Its fun to see ideas tossed around, and how people are willing to pitch in and help.

I'm going to buck the trend here a little and say, I liked logo A. It has a retro modern late 1970s sci-fi feel to it, like something you'd see on a "Battlestar Galactica" or "Buck Rogers" set. Back then, none of us would have believed we'd be working with lasers.
So, to me, the clunky logo A has impact, it brings back that old fascination with lasers, before familiarity bred contempt.

Yeah, it could be better, but I think you hit on something with the retro sci fi look and I'd pursue it further before going with anything bland or corporate.

Just my .02! :)

Dave

[Scott M Smith]

Thanks for the comments, David, but due to changing the name, that logo is no longer good. But you are right, this has turned into a good thread and lots of good advice and help. That is what I have found out about this community since the first day I joined!

[Mike Null]

Scott

I would urge you to look up engravers on Google and take a look at their logos also other professional services. This is just to offer a little more insight into what others in the field are doing.

[Scott M Smith]

For those that don't have X4, I think I have a better logo that I started on, but I left my thumbdrive at work.