Making a little progress

[Carole Valentine]

Watched Frank K's video and went back out to the shop to have another wack at dovetails tonight. I still have a long ways to go and a lot of practice ahead of me, but at least I am making progress!:)
http://www.esva.net/~pchousecalls/firstdovetails_opt.jpg

[Alan Turner]

Those don't look too bad. I note that your angle is pretty severe. Perhpas 1:5 or so.
Frid has a nice fix for DT's that are a bit loose. It is in Vol. 1 of his teaching series. You might want to take a look at his book. But it basically involves the following. After assembly, and dry glue, add a saw kerf to the loose joint which is wide enough to cover all of the slop. Then rip a piece of the same stock just a hair thicker than the saw kerf. Put in on some metal and pound it to put it in compression, so it will just fit the kerf. Fill the kerf with glue (not too full), add the ripped piece at a 45 deg angle, so both ends show end grain. The compressed wood will expand to fill the gap. Let dry, trim off excess, and plane it in. Pretty iinvisible, but don't ask me how I know that.
Alan


Watched Frank K's video and went back out to the shop to have another wack at dovetails tonight. I still have a long ways to go and a lot of practice ahead of me, but at least I am making progress!:)
http://www.esva.net/~pchousecalls/firstdovetails_opt.jpg

[Tyler Howell]

Watch out, Here she comes. Very nice indeed!;)

[Carole Valentine]

Pretty iinvisible, but don't ask me how I know that.
Alan
You mean even the experts have to "fix" sloppy 'tails now and then???:D That makes me feel better!
I will slack off on the angle a bit on my next practice piece. I don't have one of those marker things so I did it by eyeballing it. Will have to examine some of my Grandfather's furniture to get an idea of what the proper angle looks like. Thanks, Alan!

[Jerry Palmer]

I just recently got one of those DT marking gauges, so used a sliding bevel previously. The tried and true method for setting the bevel is to draw a line square to the edge of a piece of scrap or on a piece of paper. Then mark a unit, say 1/2" to the side of the line at the base of the paper, then 8 units (4") up the line. Set the fence of the bevel along the base and open the blade so that it is on the mark at the base and the same edge of the blade is touching the 8 unit mark where it crosses the vertical line. This gives you a 1:8 slope which is about right for hardwoods.

BTW, is that elm? Pretty hard, brittle stuff for learning DTs. That's a good thing. It'll make working cherry and other softer cabinet woods much easier later on.

[Carole Valentine]

Thanks, Jerry. The wood is Spanish Cedar, which I believe is in the Mahogany family. Straight grained but lighter in weight. It is very easy to work. My next practice piece will probably be oak, since I have some scraps of that lying around.

[Mark Singer]

Carole,
Excellent! You are off to a great start! When you are making a drawer for a fine cabinet you will do even better...under a bit of pressure. I know of Alan's repair technique (Frid)..Of course I never use it! (Yeah right)

[Alan Turner]

Carole,
1:8 is good for hardwoods, 1:6 for softwoods and hidden carcase work. Joyce makes them at 1:5. It doesn't matter a lot, but it is steeper for the softwoods since the pins can compress and come loose otherwise. The 1:8 is primarily a visualdicision for the hardwoods. Keep going as you are doing fine. There is more mystique than difficulty in the dovetail joint.
Alan

[Steve Kubien]

Hi Carol,

Those look pretty good from where I'm sitting. I may not know art, but I know what I like and I like those DT's!

As for a gauge, somebody on another forum put me on to the idea of making my own gauge. Pick up a Lee Valley/Veritas saddle gauge (LV part # 05N56.01). Mark out the angle you want (1:8, 1:6, whatever) on the inside of the longer portion. Grind the excess material at a grinder or use a belt/disc sander. As long as both sides are the exact same angle, you are all set.

I have found using one of these modified gauges a whole bunch easier to use than either dovetail markers which LV makes. I think their's assumes you will be cutting the pins first (I'm a tails first kinda guy). It's feels awkward to use theirs to mark tails first.

Take care,
Steve Kubien
Ajax, Ontario

[Dave Anderson NH]

I've seen a lot worse first attempts at dovetails, my own included. As for winging it on cutting freehand instead of using a gage to mark out the pins or tails, I do it all of the time. Remember that your eye is a really precision instrument and can detect very small variations. The trick is training the hand and eye to work together. very nice work and you will just get better with practice.

[Carole Valentine]

Steve,
I noticed that Veritas now has dovetail markers based on the design of their saddle. But I think I will save my pennies and make mine out of 1/8" plexi. I do pins first...just seemed easier for me to cut the pins then use them as a template for the tails..but each to his/her own. I know one thing...I sure need to build up the strength in my left hand! My poor old arthritic thumb is about to kill me from holding the chisel. Wish I could find some really short chisels that wouldn't be so top heavy when I am trying to cut to my line. :-(

[Tim Sproul]

Carole,

Those look great! Especially for the first hand cut.

Regarding the chisel use and tired left thumb....do you saw out most of the waste with a coping or fret saw? Try it....you'll only need a very small amount of chopping then....perhaps only a bit of paring.

[Jim Becker]

You mean even the experts have to "fix" sloppy 'tails now and then???
The new issue of Fine Woodworking just out has a blanket chest project in it that features of dovetails in the casework. In a sidebar, the author discusses various things about cutting the dovetails, including how to fix gaps, etc. (There is also a picture of a piece by Chris Becksvoort that has about a billion hand-cut dovetails in another section of the magazine...sheesh!) I don't have the issue with me to cite the page numbers, unfortunately.

Nice job on those that you did, Carole. One of these days I hope I'll be able to do as good as you!

[James Carmichael]

Watched Frank K's video and went back out to the shop to have another wack at dovetails tonight. I still have a long ways to go and a lot of practice ahead of me, but at least I am making progress!:)


Carole,

What was the name of the Frank Klausz video and where did you find it? I've looked for it in the past, but seems like I never could find one specifically on dovetails.

I video of Tage Frid hand-cutting DTs, need to watch it again and get my vise mounted, soon as I reclaim my bench from all the boxes LOML has stacked on it. :rolleyes: But I see the Frank K video referenced so often, it must be a good one.

[Jim Becker]

Jamie, check the Tauntonpress.com site...I believe I saw it there in the Fine Woodworking videos. I own it, but I'm traveling and can't look at the case to check the source.

[Pam Niedermayer]

The Klausz video is now also on DVD. It's very good, he shows how to make the drawers, how story sticks work, and his production process. Check out http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001KNDVC/qid%3D1092959520/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-2962824-4708765
on Amazon (who bought Cambium some time during the last year), there are some used ones for a lot fewer dollars.

Pam

PS Carole, your dovetails look good, you're well on your way.

[Martin Shupe]

Carole,

Nice work, really nice, but here are a couple of suggestions...

First, I am a tails first kind of guy, as taught by Kelly Mehler. You can do pins first if you want, but I think tails first is easier. If you have the time, go to Kelly's one day dovetail class, then take his blanket chest class. Here is the old thread I wrote about Kelly's Blanket Chest class. It shows some dovetail stuff if you are interested.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=3525

Kelly is an excellent instructor, a pleasure to work with, and you will learn an incredible amount in a short period of time. If you don't already have his website, email me and I'll send it to you. Go to his website and you can look at photos of people taking his classes. If you go to his "Writing Desk Class 2", you will see me working on a long couch table type "desk" for my wife.

Second, get a copy of Ian Kirby's book, the complete dovetail. He talks about pin and tail spacing, and shows lots of photos. IMHO, your dovetails look very nice in terms of quality of work, but would look nicer if they had better spacing. The angle has already been mentioned, but think about pin width compared to tail width. For example, if you look at really nice older dovetails, the ones that I think look the best have very small pins. So, I make my distance between tails, (and by default, the width of the pins) 3/16". Small pins look really nice with larger tails.

Third, I realize that Frank's video is incredible, but check out Rob Cosman's videos as well. He will show you the divider method of spacing pins. I think he is awesome, and also a tails first guy. If you talk to Kelly about Frank's video, he will tell you that there was a big pile of mistakes in the corner, and through the magic of editing, it looks like everything went together perfectly the first time.

Fourth, unless you are Rob Cosman, or have taken his class, you will have gaps in your dovetails. Mine are getting better, but I have examined many original Shaker drawers, and they had small gaps as well. If the gap is small, fill it with epoxy glue and sawdust. If it is large, use the sliver of wood method.

OK, now that I have joined in a discussion of something I purport to know something about, it is time to put up or shut up. I'll get out my pseudo digital camera and try to post some pics later tonight to demonstrate what I have said.

Having said all of that, I consider myself a well read beginner, so take my advice for what it is worth. I have built a hand cut dovetailed blanket chest and I am currently working on my first half blind dovetailed drawers, which are actually turning out better than I expected. One last thing. I sure wish my wife would be as interested in my woodworking as you are. I congratulate you on your progress!

[James Carmichael]

Thanks Pam!

[Carole Valentine]

Jim,
The video I have is an older one I borrowed from a friend. It is one of the Time Life ones, titled Shop "Secrets from Master Craftsmen" The FK segement was one of several on various things but I can't remember off hand what the others are.

[Carole Valentine]

Tim,
I tried the saw thing, but it seemed nearly as easy to me to chisel out the waste. Joel M recommended some shorter Ashley Isles (American Pattern) chisels which seem to do the trick for me. They are well balanced in my hand, much easier to control and are not nearly as tiring to use as my Pfeils.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...
Fourth, unless you are Rob Cosman, or have taken his class, you will have gaps in your dovetails. Mine are getting better, but I have examined many original Shaker drawers, and they had small gaps as well. If the gap is small, fill it with epoxy glue and sawdust. If it is large, use the sliver of wood method....

Martin, I think you should speak for yourself here. I haven't taken Rob's class, never will, will never buy his video (I think Kingshott, Klausz, and Frid are more than sufficient), and I make perfect dovetails. I'm sure that's true of others here, too.

Pam

[Tim Sproul]

Tim,
I tried the saw thing, but it seemed nearly as easy to me to chisel out the waste..
I've found it is highly dependent on the wood density. Dovetailing mahogany is a far different task than dovetailing jatoba or even maple. The harder and more dense the wood, the larger the benefit of sawing the waste out rather than chopping all the waste. As well, coping saw blades are so cheap....less time spent sharpening chisels and more time spent on other cabinetmaking tasks ;).

Joel M recommended some shorter Ashley Isles (American Pattern) chisels which seem to do the trick for me. They are well balanced in my hand, much easier to control and are not nearly as tiring to use as my Pfeils.
Yeah, I've heard very good things about the Ashley Isles. Are these the ones with the bubinga handles? You should also look at Lie Nielsen's bench chisels....they are modeled after Stanley 750's and are very comfortable to use in the manner you like - as I've tried using them by holding the blade down by the cutting edge.

[Carole Valentine]

I've found it is highly dependent on the wood density. Dovetailing mahogany is a far different task than dovetailing jatoba or even maple. The harder and more dense the wood, the larger the benefit of sawing the waste out rather than chopping all the waste. As well, coping saw blades are so cheap....less time spent sharpening chisels and more time spent on other cabinetmaking tasks ;).

Yeah, I've heard very good things about the Ashley Isles. Are these the ones with the bubinga handles? You should also look at Lie Nielsen's bench chisels....they are modeled after Stanley 750's and are very comfortable to use in the manner you like - as I've tried using them by holding the blade down by the cutting edge.
Yep, Bubinga handles. And you are right about the density of the wood...I think if I were working with a hard wood, I would use the saw!