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Dale Davies
05-27-2009, 12:51 AM
I need to know the proper way to use armor all on pure black marble. I have read lots about using it here on the forum both for it and against. But one question that never really got answered is the one "how do you apply it. The first time i used it on marble i cleaned the marble with windex made sure it was dry then applied the armor all leaving it a bit moist on top and lasered it. In the places where the laser never touched and left it moist was next to impossible to remove without getting it on the lasered parts and when you did ....it's back to being dark again. I tried it by spraying it on and wiping it dry but that did'nt work. Is it that the only time you can use armor all is when the "WHOLE 100%" of the marble plaque is being lasered and leaving it on wet to laser? To me there should only be one answer to this and that it works to help whiten your picture or it doesn't and shouldn't matter what type/brand of c02 laser you have...or am i totally in left field with this. Please let me know if you can, and I thank-you for your time;)

Rodne Gold
05-27-2009, 2:17 AM
The way a laser acts on marble is to leach the colourant from the marble , IE it doesnt actually "engrave" it unlike some granite. Marble itself is porous and the only possible reason for using anything on it is to seal it prior to lets say colour filling , where one would "overpower" the marble and get some depth in the engraving.
We generally use silver rub n buff type stuff to "brighten and whiten" dark stone that has been actually engraved and not just colour leached.
The possible reason you arent getting a nice white on your marble is that you are using too much power and or going to slow and are overpowering it.

Keith Outten
05-27-2009, 2:22 AM
Dale,

The procedure for using Armor All is simple, just wipe it on the entire surface of your marble tile or plaque then wipe off the excess the same way you would use it on the dashboard of your car. Then you laser engrave your photo, text or graphics and that's all there is to it. Any laser engraver will work, you shouldn't have to adjust the speed and power settings that you normally use without Amour All. The result is a pure white engraving rather than the traditional dirty white.

Remember that marble is stone and stone is porous so make sure you allow plenty of time for the Windex to evaporate before applying Amour All.
.

Tim Bateson
05-27-2009, 7:10 AM
In the places where the laser never touched and left it moist was next to impossible to remove without getting it on the lasered parts and when you did ....it's back to being dark again.

You are correct, Any Armour All/sealant applied after engraving will tend to re-shine the engraved areas. Not polish, but darken it enough to loose a good image. I use Amour All wipes the day before I laser & let it sit for a few hours or over night before lightly buffing it. Most times I apply it when-ever I get a shipment & buff a day or two later. I'll lightly rebuff prior to engraving. This is especially true for stone sealers that you need to let dry thoroughly.

Dale Davies
05-27-2009, 7:26 PM
thanks Rodne,Keith and Tim for your replies.
Still have a couple questions
Rodne...if i'm ready your response correctly you are saying that armor all doesn't work. I read on here somewhere (and now i can't find it ) that pure black marble is not really marble at all and one way to check this out is to place a little acid on it. If it is "marble" then the acid will etch it and if it doesn't...it's not real marble. And another fact stated was that real marble will engrave white whereas the other stuff will engrave a off white. The marble i have engraves off white. I would have checked it out but i'm all out of acid...darn it
Keith... it sounds like you spray it on and wipe it off how do you clean off any of the residue left behind with out getting any on the engraved parts. Because of the silicone in armor all it's like trying to clean up oil on water. Even the slightess amount left shows up like a sore thumb
Tim...i applied it before it was lasered
My laser is a epiolog mini..45w and the power 30 and speed is 80...are these settings in the ball park. Thanks again guys your responses mean the world to me. I am that old dog your trying to teach a new trick to...have a good one

Rodne Gold
05-28-2009, 1:41 AM
Well marble is an aggragate stone containing all sorts of organics , so no 2 marbles are alike , you need to find a stone supplier whose marble works well for you.
If its not real marble its then a resin or a synthetic but wont feel as dense or as cold as real stone.
I don't say armor all wont work , I don't use it , however we do use stone sealer on marble and granite when we intend to colour fill it so that the polished unengraved surface doesnt stain.

Keith Outten
05-28-2009, 5:18 AM
Dale,

Spray or wipe on Amour All before you engrave and wipe off the excess, never after you engrave.
It works and it works well, I am the one who started using Armour All originally.
.

Bill Cunningham
05-28-2009, 10:08 PM
The problem I have found with using Armour All, is it's a penetrant. And being a penetrant it will seek out places to penetrate. If there is a invisible fault line in your 'real' marble, the Armour All will find it, soak into it, and forever leave a mark that would have never been visible had you not used the Armour All. I think the main reason for using it at all, is by wiping it on, the black looks blacker, so the white of the etched marble looks whiter in contrast. And yes, the test for real Marble is acid. Acid has no effect on polished Granite but will ruin marble. I have a piece of black with a nice hand print from someone that enjoyed a orange for lunch.. It will never come off.. Marble should always be sealed with a good stone sealer before doing 'anything' to it.. Google marble stone sealer.. I've had good luck with the Home Depot stuff, but I know there's better out there

Dale Davies
05-29-2009, 12:37 AM
Thanks Bill....and everyone else...what effect do you get after placing the stone sealer on it. Does that make your lasering brighter or does it do nothing to it. What about my settings p=30 and s=80 on a epilog mini 45w. Is that on/in the ballpark??. Is there more than 1 kind of black marble in our "engravers world". I know theres tons of differant kinds of marble out there, but lets say the marble one can buy from our laser supply stores, and if there are more than one kind...is there a way of telling them apart. I have orders to do and it's getting a little expensive trying out differant ways (marble is pretty cheap...it's the shipping cost). Thanks again...

Belinda Williamson
05-29-2009, 10:10 AM
Dale,

Stone sealer does nothing but seal the stone. Stones which have been resin impregnated will have a lighter edge when ground and polished. Typically tile is not resin impregnated; however, many times it is dyed. There is a product available for edge treatment to darken the edge to match the polished surface of the stone. If used on the polished surface it will darken the surface as well. Either of the companies listed below is a good source for stone care products used by the pros. The product I recommend for darkening is Tenax Ager. Be aware though that this product will darken any hairline fissures as well. Be wary of sealers that are "color enhancing" as they are usually wax based. Trust me on this one, it takes a LONG time to remove this type of sealer from a polished surface (if you can ever fully remove it).

www.braxtonbragg.com (http://www.braxtonbragg.com)
www.granquartz.com (http://www.granquartz.com)

Bill Cunningham
05-30-2009, 8:38 PM
Thanks Bill....and everyone else...what effect do you get after placing the stone sealer on it. Does that make your lasering brighter or does it do nothing to it. What about my settings p=30 and s=80 on a epilog mini 45w. Is that on/in the ballpark??. Is there more than 1 kind of black marble in our "engravers world". I know theres tons of differant kinds of marble out there, but lets say the marble one can buy from our laser supply stores, and if there are more than one kind...is there a way of telling them apart. I have orders to do and it's getting a little expensive trying out differant ways (marble is pretty cheap...it's the shipping cost). Thanks again...

If your using power 30 and speed 80 your probably not doing marble..Reverse those figures and thats closer only I use 100 power and speed 25 - 30, and you don't even need photograv for marble (you do for granite) marble will etch nicely with just a plain halftone, or the photo setting on your epilog driver you can even go over it twice to brighten it up, (real marble is very forgiving).. If you want to practice on cheap marble, H.D. sells brown empidor lite (sp?), that turns a nice white when struck with the laser.. A sample of that marble is below. This was done about 5 years ago, no photograv, even went over it twice to make it whiter.. Where stone sealer comes in handy, is when your doing granite, and have to whiten it.. (Marble needs no whitening) the sealler seals all the little tiny holes and fisures that you can't see with the naked eye, but the whitener ( white ink or titanium white oil paint) will find them and sometimes it makes the surface look like a haze you can't get rid of..

Tim Bateson
05-30-2009, 10:25 PM
Tim...i applied it before it was lasered
My laser is a epiolog mini..45w and the power 30 and speed is 80...are these settings in the ball park. Thanks again guys your responses mean the world to me. I am that old dog your trying to teach a new trick to...have a good one

That's close to what I use for LaserSketch Marble - Not good stuff at all - likely not real marble (my 2 cents). It's very soft and does not laser white. It works for plaques, but not well for photographs.

For real marble I use 15 speed & 100 power
Granite I use 100 speed & 33 power

I never use PhotoGrav anymore.

Mike Null
05-31-2009, 7:03 AM
Bill
That's a nice font you used. What's the name of it?

Dan Hintz
05-31-2009, 11:31 AM
even went over it twice to make it whiter..
Nice to know I'm not the only one doing that. I always read here that marble etches a true white, but mine always comes out a very light gray with only a single pass, but a second brightens it up quite a bit.

Mike Chance in Iowa
05-31-2009, 3:48 PM
That's a nice font you used. What's the name of it?

Black Chancery

Keith Outten
05-31-2009, 5:49 PM
Dan,

Have you tried using Armour All? It only takes one engraving pass to get perfectly white text and graphics, it couldn't be any simpler.
.

Dale Davies
05-31-2009, 9:01 PM
That's close to what I use for LaserSketch Marble - Not good stuff at all - likely not real marble (my 2 cents). It's very soft and does not laser white. It works for plaques, but not well for photographs.

For real marble I use 15 speed & 100 power
Granite I use 100 speed & 33 power

I never use PhotoGrav anymore.

Well here's today's adventure...i have to agree with tim on the lasersketch marble, except mine was bought in canada (company selling for lasersketch). Everyone says to engrave marble at high power and low (er) speed.It was good at removing the surface but no pic....lower the power...increase the speed....pic ...but it's grey not white. Then i tryed a couple of the fool proof tests...battery acid and then lemon juice...nothing...no etching at all, so if i have this right it's NOT marble thou i bought it as marble. I'll have to make a phone call tomorrow. So if that is the case where in the beep beep do i buy REAL marble from...in the sizes of pic's. ie: 4x6 8x10 etc. that i need, or could this have been a "bad bunch", a little mix up. I hate being in a spot whereas i can't do the job at task. There is one... and the last test, and that would be have someone prepare the picture for me but thats asking to much it think but just in case there is someone kind enough...i can e-mail you the pic and then compare your results to mine...i don't want you to laser the pic only process it, either with or without photograv. My laser is epilog mini 45w and i'm using coreldrawx3 and the thing that really gets me is the person for whom needs this done has seen the "white " marble engravings and doesn't like the grey...go figure...anyway thanks again and this is the last time with this subject for sure ...dale:mad:

Bill Cunningham
06-02-2009, 10:16 PM
Dale I'm pretty sure I know where you got your lasersketch marble.. I use this quite often, and do get good results, you just have to know what to expect.. The first time I ran it, I called them up and said they shipped me granite in error, they immediately shipped me another piece, But it was exactly the same as the first piece. Not real marble. To do this stuff right, you have to boost your speed way up.. I use 75% power, 100 speed @ 600 dpi on my 35-45 watt TT But you 'do' have to whiten it, and you do have to use photograv or similar. It will not take a halftone like marble will. I guess that's why they also sell the Vanson white ink. I use Winton titanium white oil paint applied with a squeegee.. I have not found a Canadian source for real black marble, but have adapted to working with the other stuff, and whitening it as needed.. The Big fish piece I posted a while ago was done on the lasersketch marble.. Once your set up for it, it seems to work quite nice.. Although real marble is better.. this is real marble, the brown stuff from H.D. no whitening needed.. This is 12x12, and the little photos in the corners are only about 1.5" across but look like 'real' b/w prints, and were done with the laser driver only no photograv
Attached Thumbnails http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=100785&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1226453471 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=100785&d=1226453471)

__________________

Dan Hintz
06-03-2009, 8:05 AM
Dan,

Have you tried using Armour All? It only takes one engraving pass to get perfectly white text and graphics, it couldn't be any simpler.
.
Yep... I'll usually let it sit overnight, then wipe it off. I also tried the Mr. Miyagi way (wipe on, wipe off), but no difference. Maybe those LEDs are just making me more blind than I realized...

Stanley Waldrup
06-07-2009, 11:15 AM
Well I picked up the Granite from HD, Applied the Armour All, Engraved, Color filled all the letters with titanium oil base paint. This plaque will be put on a Bolder out side for a local College. What would be the best thing to seal it with? I know it has been covered many times but Will the sealer work on top of the Titanium paint? What about the Armour All can sealer be applied on top of it?

Thanks
Stanley

Tim Bateson
06-07-2009, 4:53 PM
For Granite, I don't use Armor All, I use a stone sealer. Armor All is more for marble.

Belinda Williamson
06-07-2009, 5:20 PM
Well I picked up the Granite from HD, Applied the Armour All, Engraved, Color filled all the letters with titanium oil base paint. This plaque will be put on a Bolder out side for a local College. What would be the best thing to seal it with? I know it has been covered many times but Will the sealer work on top of the Titanium paint? What about the Armour All can sealer be applied on top of it?

Thanks
Stanley

Stanley,

I would offer one caution, if you don't know what may have been used on a stone before, be careful with some sealers. Most topical treatments applied to stone won't interact, but there is no guarantee. Always test a small, inconspicuous area, or another tile from the same supplier.

Stanley Waldrup
06-07-2009, 7:03 PM
Thanks Belinda,
I guess what I after is will other sealers work on top of the armour all. I hate to cut another tile but I do want it to last. Can a sealer be applied over top of the oil base titanium.. So much to learn..
Stanley

Tim Bateson
06-07-2009, 7:10 PM
Stone sealers need to soak into the pours of the stone. If it already has some type of oily base, I doubt the sealer will have any effect.
When buying a stone sealer, avoid sealers with wax in them.

Bill Cunningham
06-09-2009, 8:25 PM
Once the oil paint has dried (somewhat.. 2-3 days.. Real dry can take months ).. I use a good polymer car polish , wipe it on, let if fog over, then polish it off.. If it protects a car on the road for a year from salt, dirt etc.. It will also work for a stationary rock..

Stanley Waldrup
06-09-2009, 9:00 PM
Thanks Bill.. I'll look into that.. The plaque will be at the local School. I can sneek over and put a coat on a couple of times a year....
Stanley

Belinda Williamson
06-09-2009, 9:12 PM
Thanks Belinda,
I guess what I after is will other sealers work on top of the armour all. I hate to cut another tile but I do want it to last. Can a sealer be applied over top of the oil base titanium.. So much to learn..
Stanley

Sorry Stanley, I somehow overlooked this post.

The surface of stone is very much like the surface of your skin. If you already have something lotion on your hand, you can apply more, but the skin can only absorb so much. I don't know if sealer can be applied over Amour All as I've never tried it. Likewise I don't know if sealer can be applied over the top of oil base titanium. I do advise customers not to use a sealer if they don't know what has previously been applied to the stone. Also, as Tim said, no wax based sealers. I think I mentioned that earlier.