Table saw choice is clear to me...

[Phil Phelps]

I am wondering about those of you who are looking to buy a cabinet saw. I have seen discussions for the past ten or so years and haven't even had the desire to get involved. Mainly because of the choices one has, and frankly, it's usually the same discussions. I decided if you like a certain color, buy it, there's not that much difference at the 2K level. Well, time has passed me by, again, and I stumbled across the Saw Stop. Oh, it's been a while back so it's not that new to me. And at my age and in my particular business, I don't even want to think about buying machinery. But you younger guys, that's a different story. How much does it cost for several sutures in an emergency room, now days? I was there in '04 and after six hours and four stitches, I think it was about a G. How much for a thumb tuck after you lose it? Probably close to 3 grand and you lose the digit forever. I can not see anyone that is willing to pay $1500 for a saw and wouldn't pony up another $1300 and buy a Saw Stop. From what I see, surfing the web, it's a helluva saw and a marvelous innovation built in. You don't loose fingers. I think it's the greatest invention since the power saw. What am I missing? It just can't be the money. People pay more for an extended warranty on their cars and in two years, it's over. And it's a no brainer, to me, if you are hiring people to work for you. I'm sure there are many old posts on this subject, I'm just late to the party. Had it been available ten years ago, I'd have bought one. I'd still have visited the emergency room because it was the router that bit.

[Matt Armstrong]

Man, you're such a buzzkill.

[Nick Abbott]

I don't think they are worth the extra money.

[Bruce Page]

Reminds me of the Montgomery Gentry song “You do Your Thing, I’ll do Mine”

I sure get tired of these SS lecture posts….

[Ron Williams]

After using a Uni for 25 yrs I cut the end of my index finger off. I bought a Sawstop to replace the Uni. The purchase was as much for my 25 yr old son as for me. Its a great saw and came setup perfectly straight out of the box. It was worth the price to me.

[Andy Sowers]

There have been numerous "debates" on this very topic, no sense in rehashing the same tired arguments. Here's one of the more recent ones:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=109203

I think both sides of the camp were well represented. I for one am in the SS camp.

HTH
Andy

[Matt Benton]

Reminds me of a story:

I sold my Unisaw about a year ago, and they guy that bought it cut a test piece, a 4"x8" piece of 3/4 maple. Before I could say anything, he proceeded to move the fence out of the way and RIP the piece freehand (and at an angle, no less)!

How many people like him are accounting for all of the horror stories we hear about TS injuries?

1. Make sure your stock is flat.
2. Make sure the edge riding against the fence is straight (if you don't have a straight edge, use a bandsaw or make a rip jig).
3. Riving knives are nice, but be sure you at least use a splitter.

It's not that hard...

[Alex Shanku]

I am wondering about those of you who are looking to buy a cabinet saw. I have seen discussions for the past ten or so years and haven't even had the desire to get involved. Mainly because of the choices one has, and frankly, it's usually the same discussions. I decided if you like a certain color, buy it, there's not that much difference at the 2K level. Well, time has passed me by, again, and I stumbled across the Saw Stop. Oh, it's been a while back so it's not that new to me. And at my age and in my particular business, I don't even want to think about buying machinery. But you younger guys, that's a different story. How much does it cost for several sutures in an emergency room, now days? I was there in '04 and after six hours and four stitches, I think it was about a G. How much for a thumb tuck after you lose it? Probably close to 3 grand and you lose the digit forever. I can not see anyone that is willing to pay $1500 for a saw and wouldn't pony up another $1300 and buy a Saw Stop. From what I see, surfing the web, it's a helluva saw and a marvelous innovation built in. You don't loose fingers. I think it's the greatest invention since the power saw. What am I missing? It just can't be the money. People pay more for an extended warranty on their cars and in two years, it's over. And it's a no brainer, to me, if you are hiring people to work for you. I'm sure there are many old posts on this subject, I'm just late to the party. Had it been available ten years ago, I'd have bought one. I'd still have visited the emergency room because it was the router that bit.

and in other news

THIS JUST IN****** Japanese attack Pearl Harbor!!!!!!!!


:)lol

[Don Morris]

The only problem is $$$. Maybe you don't have a budget but some people do! Some people have to feed children and put them through school, and in general use their money responsibly. When the budget says "There is only $1000.00 in it for a TS, what do you do...not buy a contractor saw and build things? Wonder what Sam Maloof used??? Do we only start woodworking when we can afford a SS?

Let's say someone doesn't have the money to buy a SS now. Should they not even go to a local Woodcraft and use their PM's or Deltas while spending the who knows how many years their budget will take to get the money to buy one? I don't know where you guys get 2K+ to spend like it's nothing. I can definitely see where that kind of money would eat so much percent of someones available resources as to make that choice suspect unless they had reached a certain income level. Great, once you've reached that income level. By all means then, but until then, other choices may be just as valid.

[Mikail Khan]

1. Make sure your stock is flat.
2. Make sure the edge riding against the fence is straight (if you don't have a straight edge, use a bandsaw or make a rip jig).
3. Riving knives are nice, but be sure you at least use a splitter.

It's not that hard...

Add

4. Leave all guards in place.

[John Keeton]

I am with Bruce on this one - this horse has been beat to death. But, while we are here, I will add my thoughts.

There is something about a healthy dose of fear and respect that makes one cautious. I wonder if the confidence one might have with a SS would cause one to be somewhat less cautious around other spinning amputation devices.

Sort of like the #1 rule with guns - as my Dad always told me, there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, they are all loaded and you treat them that way.

All machines can hurt you - and you treat them that way.

[scott spencer]

Your pricing assumes no insurance.

[Dan Lee]

Reminds me of the Montgomery Gentry song “You do Your Thing, I’ll do Mine”

I sure get tired of these SS lecture posts….

Me too.
I dumped a perfectly good 2 yr old PM66 for a SS a couple years ago. Never felt the need to convince anyone. My choice, my money end of story
Dan

[Chris Rosenberger]

The Saw Stop is the table saw to get if using a table saw scares the icky stuff out of you. How did anything get built out of wood before the SS?

[Von Bickley]

I cannot understand how such wonderful woodworking projects ever got built before there was Saw Stop, Festool, EZ Systems, etc......

Go around to some of the nicer homes that are being built and see how many trim carpenters and cabinet builders are using these expensive tools. You will probably see Bosch and DeWalt portable TS's on the job site. It's not the tool, it's the man that is using the tool. I have seen a lot of beautiful custom cabinets built with a DeWalt portable saw.

I know that I will never be able to afford these expensive tools so they mean absolutely nothing to me..........

[Neal Clayton]

Add

4. Leave all guards in place.

i've never used a table saw with any sort of guard, splitter or similar such device.

still have all 10, is it a miracle or are all these saw stop sermons just redundantly silly?

must be one of the two!

[Brian Kent]

i've never used a table saw with any sort of guard, splitter or similar such device.

still have all 10, is it a miracle or are all these saw stop sermons just redundantly silly?

must be one of the two!

It's a miracle.

Not because of Sawstop, but because no splitter is asking for a whole lot of grief.

[Jeff Strickler]

I think Don pretty much nailed it on the head for a lot of us. I don't think it's a difficult argument to make that a Saw Stop is a great piece of machinery all the way around but that for many of us there's only so much in the discretionary income budget -- even if we could afford more, trying to justify the expense is difficult for ourselves or for our spouse.

Better to spend a little now on a used tool or a less expensive tool and enjoy what I can do with it (as safely as I possibly can) then wait a lifetime for the money or the justification to buy a more expensive tool. In my career, I buy the best because I'm going to be chained to it for 60+ hours a week, but in my hobbies, I buy what I can convince my wife to let me get away with ;-)

Just about anything you can think of to spend your money on has some inherent danger -- motorcycles, boats, guns, cars, electronics, whatever -- everything is a calculated risk.

[Chris Barnett]

With economics as they are, and periodically get, where would one buy that little electric whiz-bang blade retracting gizmo if SS ever shut their doors? Some much larger companies are doing so right now. I prefer the straight forward designs that use standard components; am a bit surprised that no one has come out with octagonal arbors, and blade holes to suit.

[Bob Slater]

I am with Bruce on this one - this horse has been beat to death. But, while we are here, I will add my thoughts.

There is something about a healthy dose of fear and respect that makes one cautious. I wonder if the confidence one might have with a SS would cause one to be somewhat less cautious around other spinning amputation devices.

Sort of like the #1 rule with guns - as my Dad always told me, there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, they are all loaded and you treat them that way.

All machines can hurt you - and you treat them that way.

John, i Ought to read that every day I go in the shop. I'd like a saw stop as well. I wish all my machines had that capability. I fear my bandsaw as well, and am now getting into welding in a big way. I gotta stop myself anytime I am getting over confident, rushed or Lax. Yes...loaded guns.

[Neal Clayton]

It's a miracle.

Not because of Sawstop, but because no splitter is asking for a whole lot of grief.

i'm not gonna debate the benefit of such devices, but they are a relatively new innovation, people built things with table saws for many decades without them.

[Mike Henderson]

i'm not gonna debate the benefit of such devices, but they are a relatively new innovation, people built things with table saws for many decades without them.
And people got injured for many decades not using them.

I don't care how careful you are, just one slip, one inattention, one distraction and you've lost a finger.

If I was buying a new table saw, it would definitely be a SS. I'm careful, but I'm also human, and failable.

But this argument has been going on so long, over so many threads, why don't we just post "ditto" or "no ditto" and be done with it.

Mike

[Andy Bardowell]

i've never used a table saw with any sort of guard, splitter or similar such device.

still have all 10, is it a miracle or are all these saw stop sermons just redundantly silly?

must be one of the two!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584/table_saw_kickback_demonstration/

[Nick Abbott]

i've never used a table saw with any sort of guard, splitter or similar such device.

still have all 10, is it a miracle or are all these saw stop sermons just redundantly silly?



Yeah, I don't install the guards or splitters either. Every now and then I have my wife or one of my sons stand behind the saw with a screw driver or old chisel and act like a splitter if a piece is acting up. I also take the guards off of my skill saws or put a nail in them to hold them up if OHSA might be coming around. Router table guards never get installed either. The only tools I leave the guards on are miter saws and grinders. And I HATE those extra buttons that have to be depressed before you can activate a trigger, I usually drill a hole in them and pin 'em down as soon as I take the new tool out of the box. 35 years building and I still have all of my digits and no falls. My current TS is a Rigid 3650, it's a great saw that cost me about $500.00. Honorable mention also goes out to those poor saps who have to tie themselves off like an astronaut on a spacewalk to climb a step ladder of scaffold, poor sods. Hell, I used to stand in the bottom track and hold on with one hand, drop my hood with a flick of the head and weld red iron with the other hand 5 and 6 stories off the ground. I guess it's time to stop rambling and hit the sack, I have some top plate to walk tomorrow while I roll some trusses and I do it all without a net!

[Rick Fisher]

I am from Canada.. We get our fingers sewn on for free up here.. So saw stop never really took off .. :cool:

lol...

That old joke about not peeing on our hands comes to mind.. lol...

I really hope SawStop comes out with a full size slider in the future.. I think that would be a great direction for them to go..

[Neal Clayton]

And people got injured for many decades not using them.

I don't care how careful you are, just one slip, one inattention, one distraction and you've lost a finger.

If I was buying a new table saw, it would definitely be a SS. I'm careful, but I'm also human, and failable.

But this argument has been going on so long, over so many threads, why don't we just post "ditto" or "no ditto" and be done with it.

Mike

personally i think these threads should be deleted as soon as they're started, along with the festool and tracksaw threads too. any thread that starts with a sales pitch should just get yanked to spare us all the repeats of the same old BS.

[Billy Chambless]

no sense in rehashing the same tired arguments.

But it would get so quiet without the same tired arguments!

[phil harold]

Your pricing assumes no insurance.

I get $1,500 per finger max $5000 per hand

Safety is your job!

How many years did I work framing where the first thing the boss did was wire back the blade guard on all the skill saws?

By using all this safety equipment are we trying to defeat natural selection?
By-passing Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest by promoting the sawstop are we meddling with the natural competition between the talented and the unskilled?
Does the sawstop give certain people unfair footing in competition of woodworkers?
:eek:

[Mike Wilkins]

I am so glad we live in a country where a person is free to choose whatever he/she wants to buy. At least for now. I just purchased a new table saw, and it was not a SS. For me, safety is between my ears.

[Eric DeSilva]

I wonder if the confidence one might have with a SS would cause one to be somewhat less cautious around other spinning amputation devices.

Interesting point. I dated a woman for a bit who did insurance and she told me an interesting story about airbags. The sense was that when airbags became mandatory, the overall cost of auto-related injuries would go down--less injuries, less money to treat them. After doing a study, they actually found out it made no difference... Turns out people behave with a certain risk profile. Because the presence of the airbag made them feel safer, they drove faster and balanced the risk tolerance.

So, yes. If people behave the way people generally behave, they will feel safer around a SS and therefore do things that are marginally more unsafe.

[Igor Petrenko]

Most expensive tool in my workshop is TS and it's that Ryobi contractor's saw with sliding thingy for around $200 on sale. The same size saw from SS would be almost 10x more expensive. When I'll have a budget for low end SS saw I'll have to make a choice - contractor's SS or full blown cabinet saw for the same money.

[Stephen Edwards]

I love these threads! They show what a diverse group of people we woodworkers are. Keep 'em coming!

[Matt Brawley]

I don't care about the gizmo that they have in their tool, and as an engineer I can tell you that parts fail more than most people would like to know. I would rather trust my brain than the SS. I think this saw will lead to alot of careless people getting their fingers too close to the blade.

[Rick Gifford]

I own the SS. I like it, its a well built machine and extremely accurate.

But let me say if money were no object, and room in my shop was abundant I would have a nice table saw with sliding top.

Now with the Saw Stop there are a few extra steps changing blades. To go from a dado to regular blade you have to swap out the brake. You must use an 8" dado. Forget it if you have a 6" set.

Sometimes those brakes dont pop in and out smoothly. Not that they are difficult, but I have big arms and that limits mobility down in the saw.

I still see no option for running a sanding disc on the tablesaw.

You need to get use to turning it on and allowing it to go through the checks before allowing you to start up. I am used to it now, but once it awhile I forget and go to make a cut and have to wait for the process. When this happens and I am already in a bad mood it doesnt help any lol.

Now I can give a long list of great things about the saw, and I think it was a good purchase.

But this topic is turning into a religious thing. How stupid do you have to be not to own a safety tablesaw like the sawStop. How stupid do you have to be to spend so much money on a tablesaw when working safely is the answer. How stupid do you have to be to give your money to people who tried to get the laws changed so their product sells more. How stupid do you have to be to to think the newest technology is the only way to work with wood.

Gimme a break.

I think I own a nice saw and enjoy using it. I dont care what saw you have. Just enjoy your hobby or job as it is.

Dont mock me for owning a SawStop and dont mock others who dont. Who really friggin' cares??

I know a guy that has an old uni-saw. That saw is rusted and doesnt look so well. He makes furniture to die for. Still has all his fingers and knows what he is doing. He cannot afford a new saw. He can out woodwork me any day. I have a cool saw, he has cool talent. Which one of us gets bragging rights?

I say him.

All these new saws on the market are good saws. Jets, PM's, SS, Deltas... just buy what you can afford and enjoy the heck out of it.

And ignore these threads. Its almost getting to where I dont want to tell anyone I own a SawStop. They will think I am a snob.

[Andy Bardowell]

I think Don pretty much nailed it on the head for a lot of us. I don't think it's a difficult argument to make that a Saw Stop is a great piece of machinery all the way around but that for many of us there's only so much in the discretionary income budget -- even if we could afford more, trying to justify the expense is difficult for ourselves or for our spouse.

Better to spend a little now on a used tool or a less expensive tool and enjoy what I can do with it (as safely as I possibly can) then wait a lifetime for the money or the justification to buy a more expensive tool. In my career, I buy the best because I'm going to be chained to it for 60+ hours a week, but in my hobbies, I buy what I can convince my wife to let me get away with ;-)

Just about anything you can think of to spend your money on has some inherent danger -- motorcycles, boats, guns, cars, electronics, whatever -- everything is a calculated risk.

Exactly I just didn’t have the extra $1300, I still enjoy my PM66 and when I get my Shark Guard I’ll feel a lot better but until then I have my home made splitter and a lot of respect.

[John Keeton]

I don't care about the gizmo that they have in their tool, and as an engineer I can tell you that parts fail more than most people would like to know.Matt, I am reminded of the trial of a lawsuit involving a well-known manufacturer of a slide/pump action shotgun. The lawsuit alleged a defective safety.

The testifying "expert" engineer for the manufacturer went on at length about how certain he was that the safety was correctly engineered and would not fail.

On cross examination, the attorney for the estate of the deceased plaintiff walked over to the evidence table, pickup up the pump shotgun, with his back to the witness, he wrenched the action, wheeled around and pointed it at the "expert" and asked one question - "How sure are you now, sir?"

The expert witness turned pale, and was momentarily speechless. The cross examination ended there. You can guess the verdict.

[Brad Wood]

I find this topic interesting in that it is very similar to another topic that constantly gets re-hashed on motorcycle discussion boards... which is about helmet laws.

To each their own, be glad you don't have the government telling you your choice. Why is it that some people feel compelled to constantly bring these topics back up when they have been beaten to death so many times already?
http://www.bradandpam.com/stuff/deadhorse.gif

[Bill Blackburn]

I can not see anyone that is willing to pay $1500 for a saw and wouldn't pony up another $1300 and buy a Saw Stop.,,,,

I can. Simply put it's more. And way more than the $1300 you reference when comparing a cabinet saw to a SS cabinet saw. WAY more.

I fret when I see this being called fool-proof too. It's mechanical so hence it can fail. If they get serious and real with what they asking I'll likely pony up a small premium for it but not a large one. Just my .02

[Mike Henderson]

Interesting point. I dated a woman for a bit who did insurance and she told me an interesting story about airbags. The sense was that when airbags became mandatory, the overall cost of auto-related injuries would go down--less injuries, less money to treat them. After doing a study, they actually found out it made no difference... Turns out people behave with a certain risk profile. Because the presence of the airbag made them feel safer, they drove faster and balanced the risk tolerance.

So, yes. If people behave the way people generally behave, they will feel safer around a SS and therefore do things that are marginally more unsafe.
Your insurance woman is incorrect. The statistics (http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx) on fatal accidents have been going down just about every year, and by just about every measure. Check down on the referenced page to "National rates: fatalities". If people compensated for safety improvements in automobiles and roads, the statistics would remain the same.

I just get in a car and drive. I don't check what safety features the car has and adjust my driving based on what "protection" I have. And I doubt if others do either.

And I doubt if anyone would change their behavior in using a table saw if they moved from a SS to a non-SS (or the other way around).

Mike

[Phil Phelps]

[QUOTE=Rick Gifford;1142481]I own the SS. I like it, its a well built machine and extremely accurate.

But let me say if money were no object, and room in my shop was abundant I would have a nice table saw with sliding top.

Now with the Saw Stop there are a few extra steps changing blades. Etc.....

Thank you Rick. These were the answers I expected. I did ask, "what am I missing"? You filled in the blanks. Thanks again.

[Brian W Evans]

I just get in a car and drive. I don't check what safety features the car has and adjust my driving based on what "protection" I have. And I doubt if others do either.

And I doubt if anyone would change their behavior in using a table saw if they moved from a SS to a non-SS (or the other way around).

Don't know any teenagers, Mike?;) I hear my students make comments all the time about not needing to be as cautious because they've got a helmet on, they've got pads on, they've got airbags, etc. When my school switched from a PM66 to a SS, I'd never heard of a student at my school being hurt on the tablesaw. The SS has been triggered at least twice in the year since we got it, though.

That being said, I don't think that way. Most adults don't. There's nowhere I'm going that's worth even denting a fender and there's no woodworking project I'm making that's worth even the nick a sawstop gives, let alone the risk that either of these scenarios will turn out worse.

If I buy a SS, it will be because accidents happen even to careful people. It will also be because I've got a son who wants to work in my shop. Finally, it will be because the industrial version is a beautiful machine.

[Byron Trantham]

I own the SS. I like it, its a well built machine and extremely accurate.

But let me say if money were no object, and room in my shop was abundant I would have a nice table saw with sliding top.

Now with the Saw Stop there are a few extra steps changing blades. To go from a dado to regular blade you have to swap out the brake. You must use an 8" dado. Forget it if you have a 6" set.

Sometimes those brakes dont pop in and out smoothly. Not that they are difficult, but I have big arms and that limits mobility down in the saw.

I still see no option for running a sanding disc on the tablesaw.

You need to get use to turning it on and allowing it to go through the checks before allowing you to start up. I am used to it now, but once it awhile I forget and go to make a cut and have to wait for the process. When this happens and I am already in a bad mood it doesnt help any lol.

Now I can give a long list of great things about the saw, and I think it was a good purchase.

But this topic is turning into a religious thing. How stupid do you have to be not to own a safety tablesaw like the sawStop. How stupid do you have to be to spend so much money on a tablesaw when working safely is the answer. How stupid do you have to be to give your money to people who tried to get the laws changed so their product sells more. How stupid do you have to be to to think the newest technology is the only way to work with wood.

Gimme a break.

I think I own a nice saw and enjoy using it. I dont care what saw you have. Just enjoy your hobby or job as it is.

Dont mock me for owning a SawStop and dont mock others who dont. Who really friggin' cares??

I know a guy that has an old uni-saw. That saw is rusted and doesnt look so well. He makes furniture to die for. Still has all his fingers and knows what he is doing. He cannot afford a new saw. He can out woodwork me any day. I have a cool saw, he has cool talent. Which one of us gets bragging rights?

I say him.

All these new saws on the market are good saws. Jets, PM's, SS, Deltas... just buy what you can afford and enjoy the heck out of it.

And ignore these threads. Its almost getting to where I dont want to tell anyone I own a SawStop. They will think I am a snob.

Well gee Rick, I couldn't have said it better! When the SS first came out I was impressed. Then when I learned that the designer was trying to shove his idea down my throat I choked! I have a Uni and have nailed my left thumb and left index finger (neither accident debilitating)! Yea, the SS would have probably prevented it but I still wouldn't buy a SS. I believe it's MY responsibility to be safe [with ALL my tools] not the tool's. I strongly believe that this kind of technology will lead to complacency which can lead to complacency to other tools without such technology. THINK about what you are doing and be safe!

[Bruce Page]

I own the SS. I like it, its a well built machine and extremely accurate.

But let me say if money were no object, and room in my shop was abundant I would have a nice table saw with sliding top.

Now with the Saw Stop there are a few extra steps changing blades. To go from a dado to regular blade you have to swap out the brake. You must use an 8" dado. Forget it if you have a 6" set.

Sometimes those brakes dont pop in and out smoothly. Not that they are difficult, but I have big arms and that limits mobility down in the saw.

I still see no option for running a sanding disc on the tablesaw.

You need to get use to turning it on and allowing it to go through the checks before allowing you to start up. I am used to it now, but once it awhile I forget and go to make a cut and have to wait for the process. When this happens and I am already in a bad mood it doesnt help any lol.

Now I can give a long list of great things about the saw, and I think it was a good purchase.

But this topic is turning into a religious thing. How stupid do you have to be not to own a safety tablesaw like the sawStop. How stupid do you have to be to spend so much money on a tablesaw when working safely is the answer. How stupid do you have to be to give your money to people who tried to get the laws changed so their product sells more. How stupid do you have to be to to think the newest technology is the only way to work with wood.

Gimme a break.

I think I own a nice saw and enjoy using it. I dont care what saw you have. Just enjoy your hobby or job as it is.

Dont mock me for owning a SawStop and dont mock others who dont. Who really friggin' cares??

I know a guy that has an old uni-saw. That saw is rusted and doesnt look so well. He makes furniture to die for. Still has all his fingers and knows what he is doing. He cannot afford a new saw. He can out woodwork me any day. I have a cool saw, he has cool talent. Which one of us gets bragging rights?

I say him.

All these new saws on the market are good saws. Jets, PM's, SS, Deltas... just buy what you can afford and enjoy the heck out of it.

And ignore these threads. Its almost getting to where I dont want to tell anyone I own a SawStop. They will think I am a snob.

Well said Rick.
I own a Uni and have no plans of switching to a SS. If the SS had been around 10 years ago I might have looked at it. I have worked around sharp spinning things all my adult working life and still have all ten digits. I don’t need the government or any other well intentioned zealot doubting my decisions.

[Phil Phelps]

Well said Rick.
I own a Uni and have no plans of switching to a SS. If the SS had been around 10 years ago I might have looked at it. I have worked around sharp spinning things all my adult working life and still have all ten digits. I don’t need the government or any other well intentioned zealot doubting my decisions.

How did we get to the government mandating you buy a SS? This is a personal decision. I think the SS makes a case for personal safety. However, I certainly can see the Government purchasing SS's in government run institutions. Let's not go in that direction. We still have a choice.

[Eric DeSilva]

Your insurance woman is incorrect.

Really? Not the way I read this article at least. Says exactly what we talked about--

"But, says Steven Peterson, professor of economics at Virginia Commonwealth University, 'An airbag allows me to drive more aggressively but not face any more risk.' In fact, drivers of airbag-equipped cars get into and cause more accidents, negating the safety benefits for drivers and increasing the risk to others."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_n9_v27/ai_18082822/

[Mike Henderson]

Really? Not the way I read this article at least. Says exactly what we talked about--

"But, says Steven Peterson, professor of economics at Virginia Commonwealth University, 'An airbag allows me to drive more aggressively but not face any more risk.' In fact, drivers of airbag-equipped cars get into and cause more accidents, negating the safety benefits for drivers and increasing the risk to others."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_n9_v27/ai_18082822/
The actual statistics do not back up either you or the professor. To support your position, you'd have to show that fatalities did not change after introduction of the safety device. And yet we see that fatalities are on a downward trending line.

If the professor was correct - that more fatalities occur in autos with safety features - we'd see an uptrend in fatalities as older cars without those safety features were retired and more with the safety features were on the road. However, we see the opposite.

Common sense would tell us the same thing. Everyone says that they do not change their driving behavior because of safety features, but many people, like you, say that *other people* change their driving behavior because of safety features. But ask any average driver what safety features are in a car and they won't have any idea. So if they don't know, it can't affect their driving behavior.

Mike

[Rick Gifford]

How did we get to the government mandating you buy a SS? This is a personal decision. I think the SS makes a case for personal safety. However, I certainly can see the Government purchasing SS's in government run institutions. Let's not go in that direction. We still have a choice.

Actually SawStop inventors/owners tried to get legislation passed to mandate all new saw have their safety feature. So in effect they would have made a killing when everyone had to start installing their technology.

That whole episode fired up alot of people and some will never buy a SS because of it. They feel it was a dirty business move to try that.

[Phil Phelps]

Actually SawStop inventors/owners tried to get legislation passed to mandate all new saw have their safety feature. So in effect they would have made a killing when everyone had to start installing their technology.

That whole episode fired up alot of people and some will never buy a SS because of it. They feel it was a dirty business move to try that.

Okay. But don't think this hasn't been going around for decades. Big oil company puts a station on the corner. Then they buy a councilman to pass legislation that limits but one station, per corner, per X number of blocks. I mean this is capitalism. Look what Ralf Nader did for car safety? You can't buy a car without a seat belt. If this saw works as well as they claim, it's a major break through. Again, I'd appreciate testimony and facts and drop all this crap about I still have all ten digits. No one on this forum, and I mean no one, works as close to a running bandsaw blade as me. I cut things so small it's stupid. After forty one years, I'm "lucky" to have all ten. If they introduce this technology on a band saw, I'll buy it.

[Mike Bensema]

Rick is right on with his last statement, a Sawstop product will never be in my shop due to the owner of Sawstop trying to get the government to mandate his technology on every saw sold.

I might consider trading in my cabinet saw for the automatic brake technology at some point in the future since my son will most likely want to use my tools when he gets older, but it will not under any circumstances be a Sawstop product.

[Vic Damone]

Phil, thanks for your comments. This board gets a little sleepy and there's nothing like a SawStop exchange to bring out those pearls of intelligence in some wood workers.

[Jason White]

Thanks for stirring the pot... again!



I am wondering about those of you who are looking to buy a cabinet saw. I have seen discussions for the past ten or so years and haven't even had the desire to get involved. Mainly because of the choices one has, and frankly, it's usually the same discussions. I decided if you like a certain color, buy it, there's not that much difference at the 2K level. Well, time has passed me by, again, and I stumbled across the Saw Stop. Oh, it's been a while back so it's not that new to me. And at my age and in my particular business, I don't even want to think about buying machinery. But you younger guys, that's a different story. How much does it cost for several sutures in an emergency room, now days? I was there in '04 and after six hours and four stitches, I think it was about a G. How much for a thumb tuck after you lose it? Probably close to 3 grand and you lose the digit forever. I can not see anyone that is willing to pay $1500 for a saw and wouldn't pony up another $1300 and buy a Saw Stop. From what I see, surfing the web, it's a helluva saw and a marvelous innovation built in. You don't loose fingers. I think it's the greatest invention since the power saw. What am I missing? It just can't be the money. People pay more for an extended warranty on their cars and in two years, it's over. And it's a no brainer, to me, if you are hiring people to work for you. I'm sure there are many old posts on this subject, I'm just late to the party. Had it been available ten years ago, I'd have bought one. I'd still have visited the emergency room because it was the router that bit.

[Mike Henderson]

Actually SawStop inventors/owners tried to get legislation passed to mandate all new saw have their safety feature. So in effect they would have made a killing when everyone had to start installing their technology.

That whole episode fired up alot of people and some will never buy a SS because of it. They feel it was a dirty business move to try that.
I simply do not understand why people think that was a "bad' move. I participated in standards making bodies. Anyone who proposed something as a standard did so because their company had patents on it. That's just the way the world works. The SS people would be incredibly dumb if they didn't do that.

Why do you think there are so many lobbyists in Washington? What do you think those lobbyist are doing? They're trying to get an advantage for their client. If you think SS is bad, you haven't seen anything compared to what lobbyist do.

And it was not laws they were trying to get passed, it was in some rule making body.

Mike

[Myk Rian]

Big oil company puts a station on the corner. Then they buy a councilman to pass legislation that limits but one station, per corner, per X number of blocks.
If they did that, it sure didn't work.

[Rob Russell]

This horse has been beaten enough.

Rob