Need advice on cabinets

[gnachman]

I'm a woodworker, but I've never built cabinets. I'm planning to remodel my kitchen, and am wondering if I'll be happy with cabinets from the Borg, or if it's worth paying more for custom cabinets. I understand the construction techniques on the carcase are poor in most stock cabinets -- but does it really matter? There aren't moving parts or significant horzontal force. I've seen plenty of drawers and door fronts that were so poor they were unusable, but in my limited experience, the boxes themselves don't matter much.

Although it'd be nice to have attention to detail like bookmatched veneers on the doors or careful wood selection, I'm not sure that alone is enough to justify the price difference in my case.

Perhaps someone with more experience can shed some light. Or am I on the right track by thinking that high quality hardware and finishes on the doors, drawer fronts, and exposed portions of the carcase are all that really matters?

[Fred Hargis]

We (actually LOML) redid our kitchen about 4 years ago...a gut-to-the studs makeover. We wound up buying "semi-custom" stock cabinets from an independent dealer. Later I found a custom cabinet shop who would have done it for about a 10% premium over what I paid. Truthfully, I wanted to build them myself, but was afraid it would take me 6-8 weeks to build them, and I didn't want to wait that long. Then, once we ordered them, it still took about 6-8 weeks to get them. But at the Borg, if you buy the ones sitting on the racks in the back of the store, I think you will be unhappy. But the ones they order are very nice and usable cabinets...but you might have to pay only a small premium to get truly custom ones built, or save bucks and get an even higher quality cabinet by buildiing them yourself. I feel like I rambled quite a bit, hope it helps.

[Jim Kountz]

Well for me I prefer a custom set I built myself, however I have built gads of kitchen cabinets over the years and could walk out in my shop right now and simply start producing them. Having said that, building standard kitchen cabinets is not rocket science and has a relatively low learning curve. If you want to do them yourself, take the time to figure out a plan and stick to it. Decide on construction methods for each component, doors, drawers, carcase etc and do some practice joints. If you're using dado construction, make a few joints see how things work. Same thing with drawers and doors joints. There are many ways of constructing each part so you need to decide how you want to go. Also give some thought as to the finishing process. This alone can eat up some serious real estate in any shop and you will find that you will run out of space quickly if you dont plan ahead.
Dont be discouraged by all this, I say jump in and go for it you will be glad you did when you sit down at that first meal in your new kitchen you built yourself!!

Oh and to answer your question about borg cabinets I agree with Fred. The ones they have in stock are total crap and should be avoided if at all possible. You can order some fine cabinets from them but whats the fun in that!!

[David Giles]

You are asking for judgment calls on what you would like. That's not possible to do without more information. Are you a Ryobi man or a Powermatic fan? Do you hand dovetail your drawers or attach them with a Kreg jig? Which do you have the most of, time or money? How close is close enough, 1/8" or 1/64"? Have you ever had braces as an adult? Does your wife think that you are too picky? What kind of vehicle do you drive? Are you an engineer (they are a class unto themselves)?

By answering these questions and more, SMC members can accurately determine if BORG cabinets fit your lifestyle.

[gnachman]

To Jim: I'm definitely not going to build these myself. No time.
David: You make a good point. I'm a powermatic fan, Kreg jig, more money than time, 1/32" is close enough, hate braces, wife thinks I'm too picky, drive a toyota with a bunch of scratches, and am an engineer.

Here's what I would not consider acceptable in a cabinet (say, 5 years after installation):
- Parts falling off or joints failing
- Veneer peeling
- Cracks, checks, or other failures of the wood itself
- Gaps in the joinery
- Uneven finishes on day 1 (obviously to be expected over enough time)
- Peeling edge banding
- Sagging, coming out of square

Here's what would not bother me:
- Nails instead of (your favorite joint) where you can't see it and it doesn't matter.
- Gaps in the interior of the plywood (unless it somehow manifests itself in a way that is visible)
- I can live with the presence of particleboard or MDF if it never causes problems (although I wouldn't know under what circumstances it would underperform plywood - perhaps if there's water where it doesn't belong but not for real long?)

[James Harrison]

You are asking for judgment calls on what you would like. That's not possible to do without more information. Are you a Ryobi man or a Powermatic fan? Do you hand dovetail your drawers or attach them with a Kreg jig? Which do you have the most of, time or money? How close is close enough, 1/8" or 1/64"? Have you ever had braces as an adult? Does your wife think that you are too picky? What kind of vehicle do you drive? Are you an engineer (they are a class unto themselves)?

By answering these questions and more, SMC members can accurately determine if BORG cabinets fit your lifestyle.

The man asked a good question and in your expert manner you gave a load of sarcasm. If you are mad at your wife why don't you take it out on her and not someone who thought they would get some sensible help.l
You really weren't funny.

[Philip Johnson]

I would do some serious looking around I have remodeled two kitchens and built a house and everytime I was able to have good quality cabinets made cheaper then the big stores.

[Kevin Godshall]

You are asking for judgment calls on what you would like. That's not possible to do without more information. Are you a Ryobi man or a Powermatic fan? Do you hand dovetail your drawers or attach them with a Kreg jig? Which do you have the most of, time or money? How close is close enough, 1/8" or 1/64"? Have you ever had braces as an adult? Does your wife think that you are too picky? What kind of vehicle do you drive? Are you an engineer (they are a class unto themselves)?

By answering these questions and more, SMC members can accurately determine if BORG cabinets fit your lifestyle.

The man asked a good question and in your expert manner you gave a load of sarcasm. If you are mad at your wife why don't you take it out on her and not someone who thought they would get some sensible help.l
You really weren't funny.

Reading the thread for myself, and reading the OP's response to the "submission in contention", I don't think it was meant in a demeaning way, and I don't think the OP took it in a demeaning way.

I used to work for a supplier of the BORG, making the "crap on the back shelf" and making the custom made ordered stuff. We basically asked the same questions, just in a little different manner and context.

The question boils down to: who are you and what can/will you tolerate?

We made "crap on the back shelf" because there was a market for it. Some people are overly happy with it. To others, there is price pointed cabinetry all the way up thru. Being a forum of woodworkers here, and many very skilled, no cabinet is good enough unless it is custom made and perfect (as perfect can get ;) ). For someone seeking advice, they received the exact advice they needed and would have gotten at the BORG, minus the sales pitch and arm twisting technique.

My 2 cents.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I think "quality" remains, long after the sticker price.

If you would like to build one, build one and see what you think. Only you will know if you're up to the job.

As others have said... time and money.

[Ellen Benkin]

There are a number of CNC shops that can do "custom" cabinets relatively quickly in either hardwood or plywood and I'm sure in this economy they need the work. The big issue is measuring correctly. Can you do that? Do you want "them" to do it? I'd opt for having them take all the responsibility.

If you choose to make your own boxes, you can get the doors and drawer fronts made professionally. That's what many of my cabinet building friends do.

Whatever you do -- good luck.

[James Harrison]

I was replying to the post that I quoted in my reply which struck me as being sarcastic. If I misread it I am sorry

[Paul Ryan]

My advice get 3-4 estimates if you don't do it yourself. 1 from each of the borgs and 2 from custom builders. I think you will find that the custom guys will beat the price or equal the mid level borg cabinets, and be way under the price of the high end borg cabinets. Remember to take into account when you buy the borg cabinets someone has to install them and you will need a new counter top. If you are going to install them yourself mention that to the custom guys. Alot of the shops around here will build the cabinets and throw in a standard formica top for nothing. Just make sure you add up all the extras that dont come with the borg cabinets. In the end the custom will be dang close to the borgs and you will have a far superior product with the custom cabinets, and service that the borg can't compete with.

[David Giles]

Hey, you're a guy like me in every respect except that I'm just pretending to be a woodworker. I built a set of kitchen cabinets and it was an 18 month project with limited savings. But I picked up a lot of skills. You can probably get comfortable with mid-range purchased cabinets. If you have a countertop specialist, he can often recommend a local cabinet builder.

And you might consider buying one cabinet from Custom Service Hardware to check the quality. I ordered a set for a church. Didn't see them, but the engineer/pastor said they were decent quality and fit together well. CSH missed several corners with finish. But the price is certainly right.

I'll agree that almost anything will work structurally. And if it doesn't, well, you are capable of fixing it.

James: I understand your pain. Ten thousand comedians are out of work and this guy's trying to be funny. Sorry.

[Chris Weishaar]

We did the bathroom 4 years ago and the kitchen 2 years ago. Both were critical timelines and I knew that I couldn't build the cabinets in a timely manner and didn't have the space to work. I found a local cabinet maker whose prices for completely custom (any size cabinet not 3" increments) was less than an OK quality semi-custom manufacturer. I would certainly recommend looking at local cabinet makers and getting prices.

We have now put a bit of an addition on the house and I have more space. For the new office and bedroom I will be building all of the desks and cabinets. I have the space and can justify the new tools needed to speed the process up!

[Fred Hargis]

I'm wondering if any or all of this has moved your opinion one way or another? just curious......

[Lee Schierer]

When we redid our kitchen a few years ago we ended up buying cabionets from the blue borg. Not the ones on the floor, but we ordered a better grade of Kraftmaid cabinets. The construction was at least as good if not better than I would have done. The drawers are all dovetailed and made from solid maple not plywood. All the cabinet parts and shelves are 3/4" plywood, not particle board. All face frames, rasied panels and door panels are solid wood. All the drawers are mounted on heavy duty slides and fit properly. Also I didn't end up with a shop full of odd pieces of scrap.

One of the problems with doing cabinets your self is that you have to either put up with the kitchen being torn up while you build all the cabinets or you have to have a place to store all the completed cabinets until all the cabinets are completed and they can be installed.

Our ordered cabinets came on a truck, they unloaded them in a garage, all were in carboard boxes so they didn't get dirty waiting to be installed and they all came at once. I could tear out the old and install the new as fast as my hands could get the work done. I had nearly a month of work to do in the evenings and weekends just on teh kitchen and did not have to spend 6-8 weeks making cabinets too.

[Ed Peters]

and I find that I can easily construct and finish enough cabinets for an average kitchen, say 300 square feet, in about 2 weeks. Raised panel doors, full extension roller glides and dovetailed corners (if you want them). I am confident that my product will measure favorably when compared to any "BORG" cabinet in addition to the fact that mine will cost less and installation is included. It's all in the system.

Ed

[gnachman]

Yeah, I'm going to take a closer look at semi-custom cabinets. I'm visiting a shop tomorrow to price out Omega's Dynasty line. I'll see what the Borgs want, too. If the difference is substantial, I'll compromise. The three estimates I've gotten for custom cabinets were $20-25k for a 19x8 kitchen, so I'm hopeful that I can get something decent for a lot less than that.