New Stanley Premium Planes

[Frederick Rowe]

This is the first I've seen of the new Stanley Premium planes. Advertised as a No. 4, it looks like a low angle bevel up with a Norris style lateral adjuster. Listed in Hartville Tool for $179. Manufactured in Mexico and UK.

[Charles Shenk]

Looks kind of cool but they are too late to the game for me. I'm already loaded up on LN's and old Stanley's. Glad to see the effort on their part.

[Martin Cash]

Have these planes been reviewed by anyone as yet?
It will be interesting to see an unbiased critique of the planes so that informed choices can be made on their quality and effectiveness.

[Casey Gooding]

I think it is a traditional bevel down plane that has a big bevel on the chipbreaker.

[jerry nazard]

You can FINE a thread on this topic that started this morning over on another WOOD WORKING forum.... YIKES! OOPS! Did I do that???

[Bill Houghton]

dropped the price on the new Stanley 60-1/2, before anyone's even bought any. Maybe it was a late breaking recommendation by Stanley, although why the low angle plane would cost $5 less to produce than the 20-degree plane I'm not sure, though perhaps it's narrower than the 20-degree plane, like the classic 60-1/2 was.

I'll be interested to see what Chris Schwarz, Derek Cohen, or other comparison artists make of them, although I hardly need more planes.

[Dave Lehnert]

I was at the LN tool event last week and one of the vendors said that Stanley contacted Hock blades about there use in the new planes. Have no idea if that came to be.

Just thought I would toss that in.

[Casey Gooding]

According to Stanley, the irons are made in England.
Also, interestingly (to me, at least) these were originally scheduled to be realeased Fall 2008. Wonder what the delay has been??

[Charles Murray Ohio]

Popular Woodworking has the new Stanleys, I believe they will be doing a review. I picked them up and was NOT impressed. The totes are very uncomfortable, they couldn't have been designed by a handtool user (probably by a CNC programer). But what's worse is they felt chunkey and unbalanced. Lie - Nielsen has nothing to worry about.

[Tom Adger]

It is my understanding that the blades are made in England, and the plane body is made in Mexico.

I am fed up with the companies in this country sending their work to foreign countries. Particularly in these difficult times with high unemployment. I would't mind paying a little more for American made.

My last two planes were from ebay. An old Millers Falls and an old Stanley. American made, as will the next one I buy, either a new LN, or back to ebay.

[Sam Takeuchi]

But it's not exactly a new practice to send manufacturing plants out of the country. The fact is majority of consumers aren't prepare to pay more for domestically produced items. A company like Stanley sell their ware to less discriminating consumers and their ware being the bottom of price range, they can still sell large amount of products.

The thing is, buying used US made products don't particularly affect high unemployment. Certainly money gets transfered domestically between sellers and buyers, but there is no manufacturing involved. Buying an old Stanley on eBay has no effect on Stanley, none of what you pay goes to them to create a job. Even when Stanley was producing in the US, post-WWII era planes steadily declined in quality. Even if they still made planes in the US now, I doubt you'd be enthusiastic about buying domestically made poor products with high prices just to support economy and create employment. One of the biggest cost in a company and production of an item is wages. As long as things are produced in a country where wages are relatively high, company has to cut corners in every way to keep prices down, that includes quality control. But Stanley isn't in it to feed the mid range market of LN and LV. They feed the very bottom of the market, and it's the largest market. It doesn't make sense to offer a $250 domestically made #4 to these buyers. They will simply move on to buying Anant, Groz, Woodriver and Kunz. If Stanley stuck to producing planes domestically, they would've stopped producing planes altogether long before now, I think.

[Joel Goodman]

Some of us would say that they have stopped producing planes. Let me put it this way -- how many creekers use a Stanley plane produced in the last 5 years?

[Sam Takeuchi]

Yes, I think people who spends more than a couple hours a week on woodworking would know that Stanley don't produce planes, but a half completed chunk of steel and it's the buyer who has to finish up the manufacturing process. But that's the thing isn't it. I don't think current Stanley planes are even aimed for part time woodworkers, but for ordinary folks who doesn't know blade needs to be sharpened, and wife's nagging about door scratching the floor, so gotta do something type of people. And there are millions of nagging family members who force non-woodworkers into buying these things. And those who want to have tools in the house even though they are totally incompetent with them (hey, even Homer Simpson has tools!) And I suspect, those half completed planes actually do serve their purpose for these rough works where they don't need to be concerned with squared corners or thin shavings.

By the way, from the picture, one thing that interests me is the blade. That thing looks really short. Will normal replacement plane iron fit? How does the Norris style adjuster work on that slotted iron? They haven't produced a plane iron harder than a block of butter in a while, if it was some kind of proprietary slot design, that would be a bummer.

Edit: Oh wait, I missed the cap iron. Of course adjuster will engages the cap iron.

[Bob Strawn]

I'm just waiting to see what price they put on a Norris style lateral adjuster as a replacement part. If the price is right I may just make another infill.

http://toolmakingart.com/images/infill/infill.jpg

Bob

[Tom Adger]

Sam, you nailed it in your first paragraph "A company like Stanley sell their wares to less discriminating consumers".

Your lengthy second paragraph I liken to a pile of cow manure that has had a nice cake icing placed on it. You can put it on my plate, but I think I have enough sense to not touch it.

Yes, the labor costs would be higher in this country. Am I willing to pay a premium for a US made product? Yes. The percapita income in this county is higher here than in Mexico, or India, or where ever. You can call it patriotism or whatever you want, but I want to keep our money here in this country whereever possible.

[Brian DeLore]

I personally shun foreign tools with a american companys name on it. I can't change their business practices, but I refuse to encorage them with my dollars.

[David Keller NC]

Interesting how much the plane resembles a Lee Valley, except with a Lie-Nielsen mouth-closing adjustment mechanism. It would seem someone at (the new) Stanley took a L-N low angle plane and a Veritas bevel-down plane and hybridized them.

Unfortunately, I suspect these will do well anyway, regardless of the look/feel resemblence to Lee Valleys or however well or poorly machined they are. Sadly, many WWs will buy only on price, irrespective of the amoritization of that price difference over their lifetimes.

[Richard Niemiec]

I honestly have a hard time getting any energy whatsoever around what Stanley does or may do with new lines of tools. Throughout my lifetime, Stanley's management has repeatedly demonstrated their affinity for the lowest common denominator of quality in tools, and with this new line, I suspect they are cutting corners on quality, no matter how pretty they look. The trust, at least for me, was gone long ago.

[george wilson]

That plane is pretty? It is VERY UGLY,though not the ugliest plane out there,at least. I wish someone making "new" product designs in tools had decent designers working for them. Who can even design a decent handle? The only recently designed plane I can think of right now is the new Veritas block plane,and it has retro styling. Maybe later I will recall other decent looking new planes.Can't right now. This doesn't include LN.Their planes are not new designs.

[Danny Burns]

Popular Woodworking has the new Stanleys, I believe they will be doing a review. I picked them up and was NOT impressed. The totes are very uncomfortable, they couldn't have been designed by a handtool user (probably by a CNC programer). But what's worse is they felt chunkey and unbalanced. Lie - Nielsen has nothing to worry about.

I might add that Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley are probably happy because more people will enter into the hand plane market, and as they do so will the number of people who will eventually develop an appreciation for finer tools.

[Tristan Raymond]

I might add that Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley are probably happy because more people will enter into the hand plane market, and as they do so will the number of people who will eventually develop an appreciation for finer tools.

That begs an interesting question. Do cheap hand tools put more people off hand tools altogether, or lead more people onto better tools. I would assume that these planes will be good enough to keep people from getting totally frustrated, but are they lacking in enough ways to prompt people to upgrade?

[Joel Goodman]

If they don't work a lot better than the later British Stanley's I think they'll put folks off. I know my "contractor grade" #4 Stanley put me off planes for a long time. I was able to get a similar block plane to work well enough to get me hooked.

[Joe Hardesty]

Do cheap hand tools put more people off hand tools altogether...

In my experience, yes.

For many years, I would not touch a hand plane, or a hand saw, or a chisel. My experiences had been with a couple of old hand-me-downs and some cheap hardware store hand tools. I didn't know how to use them, and my meager attempts to educate myself only taught me that the subject was far more complex than I wanted to bother with.

I don't think the new Stanley planes are going to change the world, because IMHO most woodworkers will not use hand tools unless there is no other alternative.

If LV and LN suddenly dropped the price of all their hand tools by 50%, do you think it would send hordes of woodworkers looking for neander nirvana?

[Sam Takeuchi]

I don't think what put people off is the cheapness of it, but function. Cheap planes tend to have anything from flat sole to anything but flat. Also the out of square sides of unpredictable degree. On top of that, poorly milled frog and bed. They cause chatter, don't plane flat and so on. That put people off. If these premium planes had flat sole and nicely milled frog, and functions to most people's satisfaction, whether these plane look ugly or pretty, people probably will be happy with it.

Though I'm not sure if people will be put off or slide into 'slippery slope' after acquiring these planes. I think these planes are aimed at the market somewhere between mid and low market. Budget market is quite saturated with Indian and Chinese made ones of various brands, normally unusably made out of the box. I think even if these budget-o-planes were made to good standard, I highly doubt the consumers who buy budget-o-plane are the ones who actually work on wood. They probably will never hear about LV or LN, and don't care to. Their motivation to get a plane lies with something else, like door scratching the floor, just need to fit the drawer that was getting stuck, or other things.

Who are the consumers in the low-mid market? Potential woodworkers just starting out? Or mid market consumers with tight budget? I suppose some market research guys at Stanley identified a viable market and thought there is an opportunity. Whether they are right or wrong, I don't know, but I personally think it's good that new line of planes are coming to fill the market that seems void for the time being. I'm sure these premium line of planes can be made to work superbly, if not out of the box and need fettling.

Either way, even though LV No. 4 is $215, and this Stanley premium No. 4 is only about $30 or so lower, I don't know if Stanley has the tooling and quality control to match Lee Valley's. Customer support is another thing. If something's wrong with LV No. 4, you know you can get the problem fixed with ease, but I highly doubt Stanley has the facility nor philosophy to be so accommodating. Personally if I were looking for a No. 4, I'd pay $30 more for a LV No. 4, knowing that if anything is wrong with it, there's a good company that is willing to work with me.

Finally, I think the biggest issue for Stanley is the reputation which has been obliterated with their products (at least the hand planes). I feel that low-mid market consumers are too educated and knowledgeable on tools to jump onto a new Stanley products. It might take a while for these new premium planes to catch up on that ground, but I think if they can get these planes out to good function quality, I don't see why these planes can't be successful products. Even with tarnished reputation, Stanley is a very familiar brand to many while Lee Valley/Veritas may not be as well known or identifiable. On the other hand, if they screw this line up, I think they might as well go back to the budget market and stay there. LV products are too close ahead and their customer service may be too formidable, even for a multi billion dollar company like Stanley. I don't think brand recognition alone can sustain a line of products for long, especially in this market.

[george wilson]

Has Stanley changed hands? Gibson guitar co. was bought out by some money hungry investors back years ago.They ran the brand into the ground with shoddy workmanship,and finally resold it to someone who's been trying to put it back where it was for many years,as a quality brand. Some English co. bought Smith and Wesson,made guns I wouldn't want.Now it is in American hands again. Frankly,I only buy old guns anyway. Just don't like the quality of most new ones,except for a few.

[Tristan Raymond]

Either way, even though LV No. 4 is $215, and this Stanley premium No. 4 is only about $30 or so lower, I don't know if Stanley has the tooling and quality control to match Lee Valley's. Customer support is another thing. If something's wrong with LV No. 4, you know you can get the problem fixed with ease, but I highly doubt Stanley has the facility nor philosophy to be so accommodating. Personally if I were looking for a No. 4, I'd pay $30 more for a LV No. 4, knowing that if anything is wrong with it, there's a good company that is willing to work with me.

That's a good point. These new 'premium' Stanley planes are too expensive to be in the Borg stores or for people who just need to fix that sticking door. To buy these planes people will have to have put some thought into it and order on the computer or go to Woodcraft? or Rockler? (I would guess). (and Woodcraft is probably out of the question since they have their Wood River planes now) I don't see how they are going to succeed, but then I'm not a businessman - maybe there is a market for them.

[David Keller NC]

Who are the consumers in the low-mid market? Potential woodworkers just starting out? Or mid market consumers with tight budget?

Just my thought, Sam, but most woodworkers I know think $250-$350 for a Lie-Nielsen hand plane is highway robbery. And these are folks with $25,000 worth of power tools, clamps, glues, jigs, and everything else in their shop, and that's not even including lumber.

My guess is that they are making their value estimation based on the fact that their brand new table saw that's a big honking piece of incredibly machined cast iron cost $2000, so how could a piece of similarly machined precision iron that weighs 1/100th of that possibly cost so much?

Besides, they can go down to the local Home Despot and get a belt sander for $75, so why shouldn't they be able to buy a handplane that (in their mind) does the same thing for an equal, or lesser amount? After all, the belt sander comes with an electric motor, and the hand plane doesn't, so it's not as "useful", or at least it requires more calorie output from the user, so it's not as valuable, no?

[Mike Henderson]

I took a good look at the WoodRiver planes last weekend at Woodcraft. They appear to be very well made. But I haven't used one, just looked at it. I did hold it and take it apart but didn't do any cutting.

The iron is thick, things fit together well, there's very little backlash in the blade adjustment. The frog is held in by the pins, just like the Bedrocks.

Impressive plane but the proof is in the using - which I didn't do.

Mike

[Richard Magbanua]

Just saw that Woodcraft is selling these now. Watch out WoodRiver!:D

Just a thought, it is amazing in this high-tech day and age that a woodworking store would offer hand planes in four different price ranges. If you are interested in a #4 bench plane you have a choice between a Groz for $27, a WoodRiver for $109, a premium Stanley for $180 and a top-of-the-line Lie-Nielsen for $300. That's five different models if you include the bronze LN for $350. Of course you get what you pay for but all that aside either Woodcraft has lost all business sense or all this neandering is alive and well in this generation. See, there may be a bright side to all of this.

[george wilson]

Woodcraft sells different qualities of tools. Their needle files are Asian junk,in my opinion. And,I don't mean the kind with sails!!!

When I first heard about them in about 1964,they only sold good European tools. I got my set if 12 Pfiel small size carving tools for $24.00. Now,they sell all kinds of stuff from who knows where.

I enjoy the store.Just have to sort out the good stuff. Does disappoint me some of the things they will put on their shelves now.

[Tri Hoang]

The cue is in the product name 'premium' planes. For most people, the Stanley brand does not stand for quality. By putting the word 'premium' in the product name and charge a hefty price (hence premium) over their crappy contractor planes they hope to cash in on the resurgent interest in quality hand tools. Only time will tell but I think they will have a hard time competing against the 'bedrock from abroad' varieties...let alone LV or LN.

[jerry nazard]

Only time will tell but I think they will have a hard time competing against the 'bedrock from abroad' varieties...let alone LV or LN.

OK, I'll throw in my .02 on the "bedrock from abroad" issue. I did buy a Wood River #4 and a block plane just to see what all the fuss is about. After honing the blade, I "tested" the #4 against two Bailey 4's and a Millers Falls 4 1/2. Wow, the Wood River is sweet.

The Wood River #4, and the block I bought are very nice planes. The new Stanleys will have to perform significantly better to justify their higher price at Woodcraft.

[Sam Takeuchi]

It does have nice features though. It has adjustable throat, that means you can clear the gunk off the mouth easily, plus I guess you can open it to accommodate thicker blade, if that Norris style adjuster wheel is far enough to fit regular replacement blade. You could fit regular LN blade (not Stanley replacement one) for those who want even thicker blade.

Hartville page says base and frog are one piece cast, so if iron bed is milled flat and accurately, that should provide literally solid support, even better than Bedrock design. And no space for shavings to get stuck and accumulate. On the other hand, if the bed isn't milled flat, you can't lap it. Gotta file the bugger flat while holding the whole thing in a vise :D That would be fun.

If they can get the sole flat, sides square and bed flat, feature isn't bad at all if you can overlook the not-so-exciting appearance bordering tacky with SW logo. Their Premium No. 62 doesn't look too different from the original. I think if someone's looking to upgrade, potential is there for these planes as long as finished product is up to good standard. But I think they can shave $20 or $30 more. If I were to get one, I want a reason to get these over LV.

[Greg Crawford]

That begs an interesting question. Do cheap hand tools put more people off hand tools altogether, or lead more people onto better tools. I would assume that these planes will be good enough to keep people from getting totally frustrated, but are they lacking in enough ways to prompt people to upgrade?

I've been put off by cheap (or dull) hand saws in the past, and thought my friend that kept harping on the value of hand planes was nuts. He was talking about LN's. I finally got my dad's old Stanley Handyman and a lot of Creekers helped me get it tuned up. It wasn't the finest, but it would still make nice, thin shavings without the force of a bulldozer. That's when I got hooked, and the slope has gotten steeper and more slippery ever since.

If the "mid-range" tools like this new Stanley and the Woodriver planes do decent work, they might be able to show how useful hand tools are. I've done lots of stuff now with hand tools that all my power tools would never have been able to do, or the setup time would have been hours. These could be a boon for the North American companies (LN, Veritas, etc.).

How about the new Disston saws? The handles look horribly uncomfortable. Are they any good, and where are they made?

[Joe Hardesty]

But Stanley isn't in it to feed the mid range market of LN and LV. They feed the very bottom of the market, and it's the largest market.

Excellent point. Stanley has a huge distribution network already in place. Try to find any hardware, big box, x-mart, or construction supplier that doesn't sell Stanley. In those markets, Stanley Premium planes will indeed be the only premium plane offered.

While "we" may compare these new planes with LN and LV, I doubt that Stanley paid them any mind at all; it's two different markets.


For most people, the Stanley brand does not stand for quality.

I'm not sure this is true. For hand tool woodworkers, the Stanley name has taken a hit for diminished quality, but for the vast market beyond that, Stanley seems to be doing just fine.

[Dan Karachio]

.. although I hardly need more planes.

Bill, what kind of example are you setting for us newbies with a blasphemous comment like that! We have been taught by all of you experts that one can NEVER have enough planes. I am truly disappointed. :-) Kidding of course.

[Frank Drew]

Echoing what some other posters have said, if Stanley meets some consumer skepticism about the quality of their tools, they have only themselves to thank.

[John Schreiber]

I think Stanley would like to earn back some respect. It must be embarrassing to know that your best, most respected products were made better than 60 years ago. Perhaps this will be a flagship line.

The new plane looks like a hybridization of some of the ideas already out there. That's much better for me than a direct copy.

How do you think the handle is attached? Screws from the bottom? Epoxy?:rolleyes::confused:

[Martin Cash]

I think Stanley would like to earn back some respect. It must be embarrassing to know that your best, most respected products were made better than 60 years ago. Perhaps this will be a flagship line.

The new plane looks like a hybridization of some of the ideas already out there. That's much better for me than a direct copy.

How do you think the handle is attached? Screws from the bottom? Epoxy?:rolleyes::confused:
Screws from the bottom, the handle medallion is a captive nut
See here:

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32683

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/cutting42/DSC_5848.jpg

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http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/cutting42/DSC_5854.jpg


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http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/cutting42/DSC_5855.jpg

[Tom Adger]

John, if Stanley would really like to earn back some respect, they would make their planes here in the United States of America. The blades on their new planes are made in England, and the plane body in Mexico.

[Tristan Raymond]

John, if Stanley would really like to earn back some respect, they would make their planes here in the United States of America. The blades on their new planes are made in England, and the plane body in Mexico.

I have great respect for Veritas, and they aren't made in the US. I realize that nationalism is important to many people, but I think that quality vs. price generally wins in the market place. These planes will likely be judged mainly by their quality.

[John Schreiber]

John, if Stanley would really like to earn back some respect, they would make their planes here in the United States of America. The blades on their new planes are made in England, and the plane body in Mexico.
I'd prefer to buy from my neighbor or someone nearby, but that's not as important to me as buying from someone who treats their workers well and fairly. I think there's a connection between a quality product and a quality workplace where workers have some dignity.

I know that not all will agree with this, but if they can make a quality product, wherever they make it, they will have my respect. Maybe they'll have my business too if they can make it for a price point I can afford.

American businesses trade all around the world. Do we really want people to only buy things made in their own country?

[David Keller NC]

"I have great respect for Veritas, and they aren't made in the US. I realize that nationalism is important to many people, but I think that quality vs. price generally wins in the market place. These planes will likely be judged mainly by their quality."

To some of us (like me), there's a bit of a difference between buying something made in another country that has acceptable policies on labor, safety and environmental regulations and something made in countries where the aim is to make said good as cheaply as possible.

In my case, that means "yes" to items made in Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, etc..., and "no" to China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc... At least wherever possible.

[Tristan Raymond]

To some of us (like me), there's a bit of a difference between buying something made in another country that has acceptable policies on labor, safety and environmental regulations and something made in countries where the aim is to make said good as cheaply as possible.

In my case, that means "yes" to items made in Canada, the UK, Germany, Japan, etc..., and "no" to China, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc... At least wherever possible.

I agree. However, for many of those criteria we (the USA) are firmly in the middle of the pack and nowhere near the leaders (is that acceptable?) - and I can't afford to only buy Scandinavian made goods. So, what to do? Nothing, the market will decide. Most people only look at the bottom line relative to the perceived quality. That will determine whether or not these planes sell. I don't find it ideal either, but that is the current reality.

[Dan Karachio]

I think Stanley would like to earn back some respect. It must be embarrassing to know that your best, most respected products were made better than 60 years ago. Perhaps this will be a flagship line.

The same thing happened to another great US company, Fender with their guitars and amps. Their old 50's and 60's stuff was and still is sought after, much of it at huge dollars. In the late 70s and 80s their new stuff was garbage, but then they seemed to get it. "Gee, not only did we used to build stuff people wanted, it was the best of all time. Why not do it again?"

For planes it seems that companies like LN did this for them. LV is great too, but not as traditional in the designs of course.

Still, I have some hope that more and more US companies will wake up, build great stuff again and build it here. Too bad they waited so long, now most of their old factories are rotting hulks beyond repair or renovation.

[Dave Anderson NH]

So far, things have been good on this thread, but over the years there has been a tendency for threads which get into the subject of country of origin to become political. Jut a gentle reminder that politics are a forbidden topic here on the Creek.

Thanks folks.

[george wilson]

There is a way to fix up ugly planes that always works: You use a plane jack. Jack up the ugly plane,and put a nice plane underneath it :).

[Tristan Raymond]

Or just skip the ugly plane and start with the one you want! I really can't see these planes working better than the LN or LV and they are only a little cheaper. Wood River may have hit a niche, but I think Stanley missed the mark. I will be interested to hear a report back when someone has actually used one though. So, anyone tried one yet?

[george wilson]

Put 2 bags over the ugly plane in case one tears while you are using it! Or,put a flag over it and plane for old glory. Anyone who hasn't heard those,please excuse yourself and get back to school,please!!:).

[jerry nazard]

Put 2 bags over the ugly plane in case one tears while you are using it! Or,put a flag over it and plane for old glory. Anyone who hasn't heard those,please excuse yourself and get back to school,please!!:).


George: At my school we were also taught to have a close friend with a third bag standing nearby, just in case.... <GR>!!

-Jerry

[Joel Moskowitz]

Or just skip the ugly plane and start with the one you want! I really can't see these planes working better than the LN or LV and they are only a little cheaper. Wood River may have hit a niche, but I think Stanley missed the mark. I will be interested to hear a report back when someone has actually used one though. So, anyone tried one yet?

Yes. And I think you are right on the mark here.

[george wilson]

Obviously a VERY close friend,Jerry!!

[Bill Houghton]

I got my set if 12 Pfiel small size carving tools for $24.00.

Just remember, George, that in 1964, the minimum wage was $1.65, and gasoline was going for a quarter a gallon. I bet that $24 felt like big money back then.

[Dan O'Sullivan]

This plane is a dog. How anyone that took a look at the LN or LV stuff could buy this "johnnie come lately" handplane makes no sense to me. If you are willing to pay 179 for that-- I think we should consider bringing back the corvair.. GM could work something out ... maybe.