What makes it art?

[Toney Robertson]

I know that art is in the eye of the beholder so I am asking the beholder "What makes it art" for you?

In one of Steve's thread where he died a piece one response talked about how the dye took it from a turning to art. Is that what it takes?

Can a simple bowl be art?

Is it the form?

Is it the wood?

Does it have to be embellished (dyed, carved, burned, etc.)?

We work in a different medium that most other "artists" (if we are artists) because unlike painters, potters or metal workers wood has an inherent beauty. You can take a walnut board, sand and finish it and it is beautiful whereas a blank canvas, clay and bare metal have no beauty to them. So I am a minimalist when it comes to wood. I saw a piece once where someone had bleached a piece of birds eye maple. I will pull my punches enough to say that I did not care for it.

What say you? I will be interested in reading your responses. I have not seen this discussed in the two+ years I have been following this board.

Toney

[Barry Elder]

IMHO, there is no simple way to answer your question. You stated the "best" answer in your first sentence: "the eye of the beholder".

[Harvey Mushman]

Picasso once said.... "Art is the lie which enables us to see the truth"........I'm sure that'll clear things up!

[alex carey]

We had this discussion in my philosophy club. "What is art". Some of the students said there can be no real definition. Others said art has certain criteria that must be met. The professor brought in a picture of modern art, it was just a bunch of circles, Personally I found this not to be art at all but alas it's in a museums and plenty of contemporaries call it art. Does art have to be inspiring? Does art have to take skill? Does it have to have meaning or courageous motivation?
Truth is there is no universal rule for what is art, it is completely subjective.

[George Guadiane]

My answer would be yes and no to all of those things.
Personally, I think art is more about intent and then perception than anything else.
If you are turning - lets say - a bowl, and you consider proportions, perspective, grain location and orientation, intending to make the most attractive finished product from the materials WITHOUT considering the biggest possible piece from the wood, no matter what, THEN you are looking artistically at the process.
If the viewer sees the finished product, as having artistic value, no mater what the turner intended, then it is art.
If the turner slapped a hunk of wood on the lathe and slammed out a bowl, you MIGHT get art, but the approach isn't particularly "artistic," no matter how well the piece is formed and/or finished.
Whatever embellishment you do after the turning is done could be intended as "art" or as a means to jack up the price by putting in more hours on a piece...
A LOT has to do with intent on the "artist's" side of the equation.
Personal background/vision/vision/interpretation/mood/... all go into how artistic a piece looks to the viewer.
One could go on for days and not say any more or less (of value) on the subject... These are my "artistic ramblings" and in no way of any significant value in the bigger artistic world.

[Tony Kahn]

I have had several people call several of my pieces art, trust me though it is not from my meager turning abilities. it truly was the wood, i just happened to be the craftsmen lucky enough to mount that piece of wood on the lathe and not screw it up too badly. take for example the piece of walnut that mark is turning on the beast. Now according to most peoples edicts there is no way that he being a beginner could create art, but as for me, i think the piece of wood, his shaping of it and to top it all off the machine that he created to make it possible all come together for one very artistic piece.

[Brian McInturff]

For me, "Art" is just about any turning that doesn't resemble what's considered "Production run" items. Or Utilitarian pieces. But Utilitarian can be Art. Definitely any piece that you incorporate some type of embellishment is considered art.

[Toney Robertson]

IMHO, there is no simple way to answer your question. You stated the "best" answer in your first sentence: "the eye of the beholder".

Barry,

What makes it art for you?

Does it need enhancement?

Have you ever turned or seen a simple turned bowl and thought it was art?

Toney

[John Gornall]

Art is Human communication. If a person creates something and it causes a reaction in you it is art. If you experience it and have no response it isn't art to you - but it might be to the next person. Art requires a creator and a receiver. Art does not stand alone, a turning can stand alone until it is loved or even hated, and then it's art. Otherwise it's just firewood.

[Jeff Nicol]

Toney, This question is huge and has no end, if DaVinci turned a simple bowl it would be considered art, because he was a great artist and designer. If Ted Bundy would have turned a bowl it would be considered art from a serial killer. Provenance and the relative fame of the turner cand make normal into art just by attaching the name. So "WHY" does it matter? If you believe it is art it is art, if the simple bowl was incorparated into a large collage of things by some up and coming "Avant Garde" impressionist artist it then becomes art. This can go on and on and on....................

If it needs more in your eye to be art add something to it if not leave it alone. Just be satisfied you have the patience and desire to create something from not so much!

The art is in us all!

Jeff

[John Fricke]

Toney,
I think if you ask 100 people this question you are likely to get 101 different answers.

To me it is art if someone considers it so. I've seen clusters of old rusty iron all welded and cobbled together called art. :eek: I've seen almost blank canvases called art. :eek::eek: I guess you could say art is whatever someone is willing to pay a premium price for.:D

As far as turnings being art, to me it all depends on the piece of wood. Some pieces have fantastic grain and figure, they can stand on their own in almost any well turned form. Another piece may have simple grain but fantastic form that shows off the artesians skill. Yet another piece may have simple appearance in grain and form but have an artistic embellishment that enhances the piece.

I was at an arts and crafts fair today. There was a turner there that had a nice display of bowls. They were all simple forms, many with carvings to embellish. His work felt more craftsy than artsy to me. Just my .02

[Andrew Derhammer]

Simple and complex lines can be art. Shaker furniture is very simple yet it's highly regarded for it's design. Faberge on the other hand you could say it's very overly ornate. (yeah comparing eggs to furniture but you get the point)

Here's wikipedia's definition

Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music and literature. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as Aesthetics.

[Burt Alcantara]

Art is what survives. What is considered art today will most likely be not considered at all tomorrow. J.S. Bach was dismissed for 2 centuries. Van Gogh died penniless as did Bela Bartok. The roles are lengthy.

In American society, we trivialize all words so we tend to have a meaningless language. Art, love, honesty...words with no meaning because of their assignment to all things and their usefulness as marketing tools.

Art Schmart. It's all doggie doo.

[Barry Richardson]

"Art is making something from nothing, and selling it" Frank Zappa ;)

[Dick Sowa]

This question follows along with the "when does my shop become a studio" question.

I have thought about this issue at length, and it always seems to give me a headache :)

One way to look at it might be to consider how your brain processes what you do or see. As a retired engineer, I think I am mostly left brain oriented. But occasionally (VERY rarely) I manage to trigger my right brain and can visualize things completely differently. In my view, it's that difference that makes us an "artist" as opposed to a mechanic.

Malcolm Tibbets has somehow merged the two...he's one heck of a mechanic, managing to figure out how to do all those amazing segmented turnings. But at the same time manages to involve his right brain and come up with dazzling ways to turn it into art.

[Greg Cuetara]

Toney,
You pose an interesting question.

From wikipedia: Art is the process or product of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music and literature. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as Aesthetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics)

Art to me is how to take something and make it simple. IMO the more busy something is the more someone is trying to hide their talent.

Art is anything that provokes an emotion from the viewer. Does the color of a new TV matter to you? Again, like I said IMO simple enhances a piece.

I think I remember someone saying that the statue was always in the rock I just had to cut away the pieces. I think wood is the same. The bowl or pen or bottle stopper or whatever else you turn is already in the wood you just have to cut away the pieces.

I think it is kind of crazy that what is considered art is usually decided by a few people who's taste is questionable.

Greg

[Andrew Derhammer]

This question follows along with the "when does my shop become a studio" question.

I have thought about this issue at length, and it always seems to give me a headache :)

One way to look at it might be to consider how your brain processes what you do or see. As a retired engineer, I think I am mostly left brain oriented. But occasionally (VERY rarely) I manage to trigger my right brain and can visualize things completely differently. In my view, it's that difference that makes us an "artist" as opposed to a mechanic.

Malcolm Tibbets has somehow merged the two...he's one heck of a mechanic, managing to figure out how to do all those amazing segmented turnings. But at the same time manages to involve his right brain and come up with dazzling ways to turn it into art.
I was just down at the woodturning center in philadelphia, one thing that surprised me were the amount of engineers that were good enough to make it into the gallery there (funny that my goal is to go to college for engineering)

[John W Dixon]

Interesting question. For me it relates similarly to how the Supreme Court defines pornography. I know it when I see it. and when I look at wood that has been turned and the question of whether it is art or not? Not sure, but I know it when I see it.

John

[Curt Fuller]

I guess I'll take a shot at this. I think that art is that point of intersection where paths cross from two perspectives, from the eye of the artist and from the eye of everyone else (the beholder). When an artist creates something they first see it in their eye or mind and then attempt to transform that vision to something tangible for others to see. Those that see what the artist was seeing will consider it art. Those that don't see it probably won't appreciate it as art. Because we all see things so differently we'll probably never create anything that is universally considered as art by everyone. For that reason, I've always felt like it's most important to create (turn) what I see as art and hope someone, somewhere, will also see it from my perspective.

[Keith Christopher]

To me art in woodworking, is where you take a form, with function. and you embelish upon it in such a way that the function becomes secondary to the form and the expression of the form becomes focal and pleasing to the senses.

[phil harold]

wood·working (-wʉr′kiŋ)

noun

the art or work of making things of wood


so we are all artists

[Tim Boger]

I know that art is in the eye of the beholder so I am asking the beholder "What makes it art" for you?

In one of Steve's thread where he died a piece one response talked about how the dye took it from a turning to art. Is that what it takes?

Can a simple bowl be art?

Is it the form?

Is it the wood?

Does it have to be embellished (dyed, carved, burned, etc.)?

We work in a different medium that most other "artists" (if we are artists) because unlike painters, potters or metal workers wood has an inherent beauty. You can take a walnut board, sand and finish it and it is beautiful whereas a blank canvas, clay and bare metal have no beauty to them. So I am a minimalist when it comes to wood. I saw a piece once where someone had bleached a piece of birds eye maple. I will pull my punches enough to say that I did not care for it.

What say you? I will be interested in reading your responses. I have not seen this discussed in the two+ years I have been following this board.

Toney


I want to keep this very simple .....

Art would be in the act of creating, matters not how simple or complex.

If "it" came to be without added intent then it is not art.

Tim

[Burt Alcantara]

From Wikipedia...
The forms that we see, according to Plato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato), are not real, but literally mimic the real Forms. In the Allegory of the cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave) expressed in Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republic_%28Plato%29), the things we ordinarily perceive in the world are characterized as shadows of the real things, which we do not perceive directly. That which the observer understands when he views the mimics are the archetypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype) of the many types (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_%28metaphysics%29) and properties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_%28metaphysics%29) (that is, of universals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_%28metaphysics%29)) of things we see all around us.

[Toney Robertson]

I appreciate your responses and agree with a lot of the points being made but I guess I did not communicate well enough what I was looking for. I want YOUR particular view on what is art used in the context of wood turning. I will use some of my pieces as examples.

Cherry - nice wood but nothing really special about it. IMO pleasing form but once again nothing special. Is this a craft item? Or is there something about it for you that moves it into the art category?

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/170-70A.jpg

Mahogany - Plain wood but I added brass inlay rings. Form OK but once again nothing special. Does the enhancement take it from turning to art for you?


http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/112-12B.jpg

Maple - has some curl and an obvious defect. Special wood. Closer to art?

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/167-67B.jpg

Walnut - Amazing beautiful wood - simple design - medium large (19") size Does this trip your trigger?

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/174-74B.jpg

And lastly Red Mallee and Blackwood - Exotic, beautiful wood - different form. Does the fact that it is exotic wood help cross the threshold?

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/186-86.jpg

Now, how many of these 5 pieces would YOU consider art and why?

Honest answers are sought and welcome.

I would give my opinion but I don't want to prejudice the jury.

Toney

[Brad Wood]

some form of sensory input which inspires/invokes some form of emotion and/or reaction



edit: yes Tony, I would consider each of those "art", even the plain cherry bowl in first picture. It is something you created using your hands, eyes, mind, etc. It causes me to consider the form, examine the grain, think about the finish, and the process you took to get there.... it inspired thought on my behalf. Others may look at it and see it for its function only and not have a second thought about it... which is where "eye of the beholder" comes into play

[Roger Wilson]

The Red Mallee goblet is art for sure. It's the grain of the wood the natural sweeping shape of the edge and the well proportioned stem.

Craft and art are on a continuum which is why it's so difficult to come up with a hard line of demarcation. The arts pieces need to have all the craft skill but in addition they must have something elegant or sublime about them.

[Brian McInturff]

Ok, Here goes.
1st. Not art. Is what is typically made by a production turner.

2nd. Not sure I'd call it Art. Not really sure what category to put it in. It is utilitarian but like I said earlier, it can be art too. Could also be done in production run. Truly a piece that if it was meant to be art could be classified that way.

3rd. Fit's in the art category. Not a utilitarian piece. Not a production run item. The orientation of the piece had to thought out. I think it would've fit better in that category if you went thinner. Still, "I" would consider it a piece of art

4th. Here is a utilitarian piece that fits into the art category. It could be used, it could be a center piece on a table, or it could be hung from the wall. Definitely art in how I perceive it.

5th. Obviously a piece of art. Anyone who looks at it sees the time and the detail the artist put into it. From picking the right woods to the form.

As for using the term "Craft". I've never considered an item a piece of craft. Craft is the process to develop the Art.
Well, that's my perspective on this.

[Alan Trout]

Toney,

to me it is all art because in my opinion all of these pieces were well executed and highlighted or brought out something in each piece of wood. I get as much out of a "well executed" simple form as an ornate finial. I personally find that many embellishments detract from many forms and make the piece less desirable to me. The person that can take a piece of wood and highlight its attributes in such a way that it enhances that piece of wood with a form that is pleasing to the eye is considered art in my book.

Good Luck

Alan

[Bill Bulloch]

This is a simple question. The bowl on the left is art, the one on the right is a bowl. If you display it on a shelve you must consider it art; if you eat salid out of it, you must consider it a bowl.

[Skip Spaulding]

If I turn a bowl and it doesn't hold water, it's ART!!

[Brian McInturff]

Bill,
I think the one on the left is prettier. There's just something about it.:D

[Andy Pogue]

IMHO,
Pen kit............................................... .........$4.00
Wood.............................................. ............$1.00
Sale Price............................................. .......$30.00
Profit............................................ ..............$25.00
Convincing smart woman $2000.00 lathe
and $500.00 tools are worth it..........................ART

[Thom Sturgill]

Wow, a lot of responses, and good comments. Many years ago in an art appreciation class, art was defined as 'the quality of communication'. Was not sure then what that meant and still don't.

A utilitarian object can be art, if the creator attempts to bring out the beauty as well as the functionality. I like to use 'Norm' as an example. His work is solid, functional, but I think he rarely achieves 'art'. His selection of grain, and stain, leave much to be desired in my opinion.

As to your examples, the last I would say is 'Art' based, at least in part, by the juxaposition of the formality of the stem with the frivolity of the natural edge bowl. The maple piece comes close, but misses the mark, though I would have to handle the pieces to better judge.

Even a simple, functional bowl can evoke feelings of beauty and awe as the form and finish approach perfection. The natural beauty of the wood can add to those feelings, and poor selection or presentation can diminish it. Adornment may enhance or diminish a piece's 'Artistry', but does not automatically do either. That must be judged in how it affects the individual piece, how it interacts with grain patterns and the shaping of the piece.

[Toney Robertson]

IMHO,
Pen kit............................................... .........$4.00
Wood.............................................. ............$1.00
Sale Price............................................. .......$30.00
Profit............................................ ..............$25.00
Convincing smart woman $2000.00 lathe
and $500.00 tools are worth it..........................ART

Andy,

Now that is funny, I don't care who you are.

Toney

[Toney Robertson]

Ok, Here goes.
1st. Not art. Is what is typically made by a production turner.

2nd. Not sure I'd call it Art. Not really sure what category to put it in. It is utilitarian but like I said earlier, it can be art too. Could also be done in production run. Truly a piece that if it was meant to be art could be classified that way.

3rd. Fit's in the art category. Not a utilitarian piece. Not a production run item. The orientation of the piece had to thought out. I think it would've fit better in that category if you went thinner. Still, "I" would consider it a piece of art

4th. Here is a utilitarian piece that fits into the art category. It could be used, it could be a center piece on a table, or it could be hung from the wall. Definitely art in how I perceive it.

5th. Obviously a piece of art. Anyone who looks at it sees the time and the detail the artist put into it. From picking the right woods to the form.

As for using the term "Craft". I've never considered an item a piece of craft. Craft is the process to develop the Art.
Well, that's my perspective on this.

Brian,

I would say that your idea of art and mine mesh pretty closely.

Now if I could just figure out what the buying public views as art I could retire!! ;)

Toney

[Steve Schlumpf]

Toney,

My particular view on what is art, when confined to wood turning, is constantly changing. I find that those turnings that inspired me when I first started turning no longer hold interest for me. Why? As my skills grow, so do my requirements of what constitutes art. Art, to me, can be many things, but it must be inspirational.

When first starting out, I saw the turning but had no understanding of the design behind it. Now when I look at a turning I see the form, the wood, the character (voids, bark, inclusions, etc), texture, embellishments, color and whatever else the turner did to make the turning unique.

To me, and this is the key part, the turning must have a certain WOW factor to it for me to consider it art. By that I mean that the turning must go beyond expectations. Subtle things stand out when your experience level takes you beyond the basics of turning. You appreciate the small change in a curve, the angle of an opening or the way the turner used the grain to their advantage. You find yourself using adjectives like amazing, graceful, delicate or beautiful to describe how the turning evokes emotion within you.

When I see a turning and find myself searching for words to describe how it makes me feel – then, at least at this stage of my turning education, there is a good chance that the piece would be considered art.

Of the five pieces you have posted, all very nice work by the way, I find:

1)Very nice Cherry bowl but utilitarian in nature and not considered art
2)The Mahogany bowl is what I would classify as fancy utilitarian. Something decorated/embellished yet intended to be functional.
3)The Maple bowl is getting closer but for me it doesn’t have any WOW factor.
4)The platter is sort of a cross-over in which it can be either utilitarian (center piece on a table) or hung on the wall as art. The color and grain work together to make this piece unique yet still falls a little short when it comes to the WOW factor.
5)The goblet, for me, is art. First thing I thought was ‘Wow, impressive!’ The outside curve flows smoothly from bottom to top – especially the junction between pedestal and goblet. The detail rings in the pedestal are at the optimum height. The jagged edge of the goblet contrasts with the smooth black of the pedestal. Overall the piece is balanced and would garner attention in any setting.

One other thing influences what I consider art and that is how it is displayed. Case in point – the photography. The photo can make or break a piece simply because it is the only contact the viewer has with the turning. You have made good use of lighting, cropping, backdrop and shadows! To me, this is a must! As an example, any of the above turnings would suffer is the only photo we ever saw was a snapshot taken – with your cell phone, over at your brother-in-laws house after 5 beers and just before dinner – if you get my point.

Toney, keep up the good work. You have already come a long ways and the recognition you are receiving affirms you are on the right track!

[Keith Christopher]

And lastly Red Mallee and Blackwood - Exotic, beautiful wood - different form. Does the fact that it is exotic wood help cross the threshold?

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj101/iublue/186-86.jpg

Now, how many of these 5 pieces would YOU consider art and why?

Honest answers are sought and welcome.

I would give my opinion but I don't want to prejudice the jury.

Toney


In my opinion I would say the last qualifies more as art because it is more prone to appreciation for form over function. The senses appreciate the blending of the objects and the contrasts between the different mediums used. This is where I believe function becomes secondary to the form. As a candle holder, or candy dish, or simply a place to put my daughters zillion hair ties.....I see this more for its pleasing visual asthetics _vs_ the actual functionality of the piece. This however imho does not detract from the others and their artistic nuances, I just believe this one is more of an art piece then the others, when I sawthem I thought first of the function of them.


Keith

[Curt Fuller]

Brian,

I would say that your idea of art and mine mesh pretty closely.

Now if I could just figure out what the buying public views as art I could retire!! ;)

Toney

Toney, yours and Brian's opinions are a good example of the enigma that always surrounds this type off discussion. No one see's these through the same eyes. I personally think the cherry bowl is a piece of art that I would sit somewhere in my house to be viewed as art. I would call Tupperware utilitarian. But then I know what goes into a bowl like that. You turn them, but a little bit of you into them, and sit them out for sale. One by one, over time, someone comes along that recognizes the beauty in them and they're sold.

[Steve Mellott]

When I go to a turning symposium, there is always a gallery of completed projects -most of them are usually very nice. Yet, as I tour the gallery, I occasionally catch myself saying "wow - this is really a piece of art." It usually is something creative and unique that I would have had trouble even envisioning, yet alone turning. It may involve form, color, grain, texture etc. but it is hard to define. To me, art does not mean a well crafted project - it has to have a WOW factor. That WOW factor is typically produced by the uniqueness of the project. In your examples, all are well crafted projects, but #5 is the piece of art. Just my opinion.

Steve

[Brian McInturff]

Hahaha, I guess that's why when I go to an Art museum I think most things are ugly. It's amazing what items can be declared Art. Like Monet, I just don't get it. Or some of the really abstract Art. Solid white background with 1 black dot in the middle. Price $25,000. I just don't get it.:eek:

[Ed Davidson]

I would consider most of this woodturning art: http://www.woodturner.org/sym/sym2009/auction/details/index.htm . Note in the descriptions that many of the artists have provided some idea of what inspired the piece.

[Danny Thompson]

When aesthetics become more important than function, art begins.

To me, 3 & 5 are art because they cause one to consider the materials and form.

Monet's style is a reaction to the development of photography. What painter can duplicate a photographic level of clarity and in such short order? With cameras monopolizing the photorealism market, painting had to find something else to ponder. In Monet's case, the object of the painting is inconsequential. The subject is, rather, light and the way it affects perception. That's why he paints a series of water lillies, a series of cathedrals, etc., all at different times of day. In the process, his work also comments on how little is required to successfully communicate an image. He is saying, leave the photos to photography. Art is about something else.

Same for #'s 3 & 5. If we lived in a world without enough wooden goblets, then these would be destined for the trash heap. In our world, those pieces drive thought about materials, form, function, and the arguably insane person who thought of pairing those materials with those forms.