How important is leveling the lathe and could not being level cause wobble?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

My fellow Creekers...

I am struggling with my new "used" Jet 1642 lathe. The machine is so smooth and so well powered that I am having a great time roughing out wood on the lathe. Love love love that part of the process now!

But after a few weeks of alcohol soaking followed by drying I have started finish turning the bowl blanks I roughed out. And in doing so I have run into some troubles. I mentioned this before in a thread but now it has gotten so bad and I have gotten so confused trying to deal with it that I thought I would post here about my questions. But when the bowl is dry and I am finish turning it I hear what sounds a lot like chatter. But isn't. Remove the tool and you can see the bowl coming and going. And this is after removing 1/2" from the outside of the bowl. This is the same technique and same wood I was using on the old lathe and it quick turned down to true. In this case it is straight up wobble. And it is driving me nuts.

Ok. That is wobble is just too weird. I saw this lathe running in the shop of the guy I bought it from and it appeared to have no wobble in the spindle or visible with his SuperNova2 chuck mounted on it. I have tried 3 thread adapters now with 2 of my own chucks it wobbles like mad. Same with my face plate. And frustrating enough the same with the chuck that was on it in the shop when I bought it. (Came with the lathe). So I borrowed a G3 chuck from the local Woodcraft. I am on really good terms with some of the guys that work there and they were happy to let me take one home for a week. That g3 wobbles here too. I have not take the lathe in to have it checked by a repair shop.

Note: I put my old chucks back on the other lathe just to see. Just like you they have NO wobble on the old lathe. Not a bit. They spin just as true as they did before. Having used 3 seperate adapters I doubt they are all bad. So it has something to do with the lathe.


So I downloaded the manual to the lathe off of the WMH website and read through their very short trouble shooting section. There were 2 pieces of advice for my problem. Option #1 - "Replace the spindle and bearings" and option #2 - "Level the lathe".

So I did some internet research on leveling the lathe and found a ton of posts suggesting using a precision machinists level and the #1 recommended item was to be had for the bargain price of $399. I just don't have that kind of money at the moment. Nor do I know anyone I could borrow something like that from. So I got out my cheap plastic 2' to 3' bubble level.

My results:
I am pretty close left to right across the bed. Maybe a 1/16th of a inch low on the left so that the right is a tad higher.

BUT, and here is the bad part, I measure from front to back across the ways and holy cow I am out by almost 1/2 a bubble. So it is way off but not twists, just off. Probably what was needed to be level on the floor it was set up on before.

But it really is fairly uniformly out of level across the whole bed of the lathe.

From the experience of the rest of you guys would this be enough to induce wobble or problems, given that it is "evenly off" would it not be the cause of the problem for me?

I am not entirely certain how to level the lathe. So before I got started I thought I would ask for any expert opinions or advice. It has the leveling feet one the bottom with the bolts coming up thru with nuts on them. Since I didn't put them together I am just trying to recall what I saw when moving it and I think there are just 2 nuts one above and 1 below. So it should be simple enough physically to make that adjustment. But what is the best way to actually detect where to set things and when it is truly level? And how close it "close enough" when trying to level it?

So other than using my big bar level, a Harbor Freight special, and suggestions or instructions on leveling the lathe? Any more reasonably priced type of level I should buy and try using?


Also for any who have experienced anything like this is replacing the bearings and or spindle worth doing/having done? I checked the prices and availability from WMH and the bearings seem to be a standard size. They are quite a bit cheaper from other reputable firms. But then there are some much higher end ones form about $200 a piece. I wonder if they would make any difference.


If you have any advice/suggestions I would love to hear about them.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Steve Schlumpf]

Joshua,

To level I used a standard 2' contractors bubble level. I adjusted left to right and also front to back on both ends of the lathe - just to make sure there was no twist. So, IMHO, your bubble level should work just fine.

The wobble thing has me scratching my head a little. I wouldn't think the level factor would have anything to do with wobble - but there are a few questions that come to mind.

Is your headstock secure?

Did you have wobble when roughing out your turnings? If not, what changed?

If your bearings were shot - I would think you would know by the noise. Also - with your chuck on the lathe - put in a foot long piece of wood - spindle fashion. With all power off - grab the wood and see if you can move the chuck up/down or left/right. If it moves - then I would start thinking about bearings........

Only other thing I can think of is the face of the spindle where the chuck adapter sits when the unit is screwed onto the spindle. It should be flat - with no burrs or anything preventing a clean seat.

These are just the first thoughts on this. I am sure others will chime in with stuff to check. I wish you luck!

[Tony Kahn]

one thing i found with mine was getting even pressure on all four feet, it took alot of fidgeting with them, kinda gueesing at pressure while turning wrench, i guess you could prolly find some way to use a torque wrench to get it right. one suggestion is take the head and tailstock off while doing anything to do with leveling and trying to get even pressure on the feet. my .02

[Brian McInturff]

Even if the lathe wasn't level it wouldn't cause "wobble" unless you were using the tailstock too. Steve already covered the important items to check. Either a "facing" issue where the chuck seats, or possibly bearings. Not having owned a Jet I can't think of anything else. Good luck and let us know what it is when you figure it out.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Two things to check the bearings. (1) using a stick put one end on the headstock, and the other on your ear. Use it like a stethoscope. If you hear grinding, rattling, or anything else, it's the bearings. (2) Screw a 3 foot 2x4 onto a face plate. Grab both ends and see if there is any movement. The length of the 2x4 will amplify any problems.

[John Fricke]

Josh,
If you put a spur drive in, does the center line up with the tailstock center? If not your ways have a slight twist. Like others have said levelness shouldn't affect wobble but all 4 feet need to have equal pressure to prevent twisting. I'm pretty sure if the bearings were bad enough to induce wobble you would hear it....Another thought....buy a cheap dial indicator from HF to check if your spindle turns true. Doesn't seem likely but maybe the spindle is tweaked.

[Burt Alcantara]

Is your headstock locked down tightly?

[cliff smith]

just a thought: if it didnt wobble when roughing which is usually out of round and balance, then what changed as was asked before? you mentioned you soaked the roughed blanks in alcohol i do as well but almost alway have some movement in the wood and did you turn a spigot or recess either can move and be out of round and cause wobble , i have experienced this before. hope this helps.

[cliff smith]

if there was no wobble when you roughed which is usually unbaloanced out of round stock, then maybe the wood moved even after drying in alcohol i have had some movement, and if the tennon or recess is out of round fron wood movement it will be out of balance and thus wobble. hope this helps just a thought.

[Allen Neighbors]

If you don't have a chuck on your spindle, and you do have wobble (to me, "wobble" means that the spindle is not running true) it is caused by either bad bearings or a bent spindle, or both. Having the lathe unlevel, will not cause wobble.
If the centers lined up before you bought the lathe, and they don't now, it may just be that the bed has a little bit of twist to it, and, when taken out by shimming a leg, they'll align again.
But wobble has to do with the spindle.

[Ed Heuslein]

Joshua, I think you have received a lot of good advice here. So I'll throw in my $.02 worth just to emphasize a thought or two. In my experience, when talking about leveling a lathe, what they really mean is having all four feet setting solidly and equally on the floor. I one is off a little, it causes a myriad of problems. One last thing. Bearings are doubtfully the problem, but if they do need replaced, get a good set made in the USA and you'll never be sorry. Probably never have to replace them again either. Please keep us advised.

[John Fricke]

I'm betting a cpl guys above hit the nail on the head........did you true up the tennon before remounting in the chuck?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the information.


To level I used a standard 2' contractors bubble level. I adjusted left to right and also front to back on both ends of the lathe - just to make sure there was no twist. So, IMHO, your bubble level should work just fine.
Great. One suggestion I received in a PM was to also doing it by crossing the ways. Front left to back right and vice versa. I like that idea. Seems like it could help catch any odd twists etc...


The wobble thing has me scratching my head a little. I wouldn't think the level factor would have anything to do with wobble - but there are a few questions that come to mind.You and me both. I don't get it. I mean my cheap HF lathe runs so true I expected even more from this high end Jet. Would just plain stand to reason.


Is your headstock secure?I suppose I should have mentioned a few more details. But thanks for pointing them out. The answer is yes. I have it locked down tight. I did move it in towards the middle. The motor is riding on top of the left-hand edge of the ways instead of hanging out over the end. I don't do long spindle turning and it was convenient to get it put where it is.

But it does beg and interesting question. I wonder what would happen if I moved the headstock either back out over the leg or further towards the tailstock end... Positioning it on the bed differently could either do nothing or could make it behave differently.


Did you have wobble when roughing out your turnings? If not, what changed?I did. But to be honest it wasn't as noticeable. Or rather I wasn't trying to get a finish turned style surface so I felt while roughing that it was much closer to being true than I feel now. What is interesting is that in measuring the thickness of the wall it is really quite consistent. Which is why I was calling it wobble. It wasn't coming and going from the tool in the normal oblong after drying fashion it was just off but only every now and again.


If your bearings were shot - I would think you would know by the noise.Ok. Now that is interesting. There is no unexpected noise. The lathe is really quite quiet. No grinding, squealing or scraping. I hadn't thought it thru well enough to expect that until you mentioned it. I was just thinking about how to explain what I was experiencing. But I have had bearings in HD's die in computers. And you get a constant squealing noise.

I will chuck up a piece of wood and see if I can make it move. I wish I could get a good video of this behavior it is odd to see.


Only other thing I can think of is the face of the spindle where the chuck adapter sits when the unit is screwed onto the spindle. It should be flat - with no burrs or anything preventing a clean seat.I looked at that but not with great care. I will go back over it. I actually bought a few weeks ago one of those Nylon "never lock" washers from Woodcraft. So that the chucks wouldn't lock down to the spindle. I will give that a whirl and see what I can find both on a much closer inspection and once the washer is in place. I think I might also try using the spindle tap I bought that same day to tap a bigger piece of hardwood scrap I have and see what I can make it do. So not chuck/metal just wood and see how successfully it threads on.

Thanks again,
Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

one thing i found with mine was getting even pressure on all four feet
Ok, thanks. Right now all 4 seems solidly down on the floor. But I can check it out more thoroughly as I try to level it all.

Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Two things to check the bearings. (1) using a stick put one end on the headstock, and the other on your ear. Use it like a stethoscope. If you hear grinding, rattling, or anything else, it's the bearings. (2) Screw a 3 foot 2x4 onto a face plate. Grab both ends and see if there is any movement. The length of the 2x4 will amplify any problems.
Ok. I can do that I have such a piece in the garage right now. I will get it a whirl first thing in the morning and see what I can find out.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Mat Ashton]

I used to have the equivalent delta standard duty lathe with the 1" shaft. Over the years I bent the shaft a few times. It could be very difficult to see the wobble until I did the test below. It's surprisingly easy to bend the shaft. I even twisted one shaft once! If you were roughing a large diameter piece that was also quite long (relative to the bed length) and you have a very sudden and strong catch that stops the lathe dead for a moment. You could have bent the shaft when you were moving it from where you bought it to your house. Did you use the head and shaft as a tie down point...

I doubt you damaged the bearings otherwise you'd be able to hear them grinding as the lathe spun. But if the shaft is bent they'll wear out pretty quick. It's not unusual though that the bearings may be warn out. It doesn't take much for vibration to start but there's no way you could grab the shaft and feel the slop as the wear is that minute but you can see and feel the vibration in the piece. When I was doing production work on the old delta I would have to replace the bearing every month as the vibration was too high.

The easiest way to pretty much eliminate whether you have a bent shaft is to mount the largest face plate or chuck (minus the jaws) on your lathe and move your tool rest up like I've done in the picture. Make sure the tool rest just grazes the outer most edge of the face of the face plate or chuck. You may need a flash light to direct light behind it so you can see if there's a gap between the tool rest and face plate. Now rotate the face plate by hand relatively slowly. If the tool rest stays in contact with the face plate all the way round your shaft isn't bent. If it is, in a pinch, I've grabbed a fairly long and large diameter steel bar in the chuck body and used it to ever so gently bend the shaft back into a reasonable alignment. I just used the face plate trick to determine which way I needed to bend the shaft. You'll never get it perfect but you can get pretty close if you're careful.

You will need to eventually replace the shaft and bearings as a bent shaft will wear out your inboard side bearing(s) real quick. I've found the outboard side bearing rarely wears out as it's a floating bearing with little load on it.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

If you put a spur drive in, does the center line up with the tailstock center?
It does. From visual inspection it is extremely accurate between the 2 points.

That is a great idea. I will grab a dial indicator tomorrow if I can. Hopefully HF is open tomorrow while I have the day off.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

you mentioned you soaked the roughed blanks in alcohol i do as well but almost alway have some movement in the wood and did you turn a spigot or recess either can move and be out of round and cause wobble , i have experienced this before. hope this helps.
Oh there was serious serious movement in the wood. I turned spigot/tenon on the bottom of the piece. It warped to a seriously out of round football shape.

The pattern I follow I have see on a number of videos, Bill Grumbine's/Alan Lacers/Woodturning Workshop/etc... I open the jaws of the chuck and put the inside of the bowl over and around the chuck. Then I bring up the tailstock into that center point I leave marked in it and pressure it against the headstock/drive end. Then using mostly my bowl gouge I cut in far enough on the tenon that I am getting a solid cut all the way around. Thin but present on the narrow side and really quite thick on the long sides. Then I cut to the bottom of the bowl. Following this I square it up nicely with my parting tool. Doing this has resulted in a solid grab and the ability to turn it true on the old lathe. With the new one the wobble just never leaves.

To be clear it isn't that it is warped when I first turn it around. I had cut down to clean inner wood all the way around on 3 different bowls now and it was still there. So I thought it might be that the inside had differing thickness so I have finish turned each to a complete finished state. In each of these 3 cases the wobble has persisted all the way to being completely finished.

You know in thinking about it each of these three has been the "end of the street" elm that I got from a friends neighbor. So it might have something to do with that. Can 1 type of wood make that big a difference? I have a rather large black walnut rough out that is ready to finish. Perhaps I will try that next to see if a different type of wood behaves differently.

Thanks for the help!
Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

did you true up the tennon before remounting in the chuck?
I did. And just in case it makes anyone wonder about that rest of that. I have checked by grabbing the bowl and pulling and pushing pretty hard. The wood has not come loose in the chuck. It is still fully tight and fully seated. But I wasn't looking for play in the spindle when I was doing this I was just checking the seat in the chuck itself.

Thanks for the suggestion. I am certain I will find this issue before too long,
Joshua

[Michael Mills]

This doesn’t seem to be your problem, but to "level" the lathe, the following worked excellent for me. Level meaning firmly on all four legs.
With the lathe running and wobbling (shaking?) and with an out of balance piece mounted, adjust one foot of one the front legs. You should be able to just slide an open-end wrench over the adjusting nut. By default two of the diagonal legs will be firm on the floor, the other two diagonal legs may be slightly (or greatly) off.
By adjusting the foot with the lathe running you can see and feel the vibration increase or decrease. This removed about 75% of the shaking on mine.
Mike

[Reed Gray]

A lathe doesn't have to be perfectly level to work, but it does help, and having all 4 feet with the same pressure on them helps as well. Jack up one end till it is just off the floor, and then adjust the feet on that end till they hit the floor. It sounds like you are in a garage. Most garage floors will have some fall/slope in them, so if you want your lathe level, you will have one end slightly more off the floor than the other, or one side slightly higher. It sounds like you trued the tenon so that isn't a problem.

I prefer a different threaded insert for the chuck rather than an adapter. Just works better, and you aren't hanging out farther off the headstock.

If the bearings did go bad, it is pretty easy to tell, usually some noise, and the spindle doesn't run smooth. I had to replace the ones on my PM, and got the bearings from a local supply place, and had them replaces for less than I could get the bearings for through PM.

I would suggest that the chuck jaws might be loose. This has happened to me a number of times, and it does cause some wobble, but since you tried several chucks, this doesn't seem to be a likely cause.

I am not really sure what you mean by wobble. When final turning a bowl, especially on bigger ones, the rim and walls of the bowl are thinner, and are more likely to vibrate with even the lightest tool pressure. There is little mass to make the wood steady. This can result is some funny noises, and you will see marks in the wood at regular intervals if you turn off the lathe. You can use a steady rest, or use your hand as a steady rest. There will always be some wobble in a bowl. The end grain and flat grain will cut slightly different, and this causes some bounce.

When you spin the bowls slow, is there still wobble? When you spin it faster with no tool on the wood does it still wobble? Does it wobble more or less as you change speeds?

robo hippy

[Dennis Ford]

You have gotten a lot of good advise about the lathe, bearings and leveling. From reading your question, it sounds to me like the problem might be in the wood. If the wood had a lot of stress built up in it, it will move while you are cutting it even if it is dry. So you turn the outside round and then while you are cutting on the inside, the wood warps and is no longer round. This is common with branch wood. Elm can store up a lot of stress without cracking. Try some other pieces of wood and see if you have the same problem.