Making goose neck tools for hollowing - a question

[Jim Underwood]

Most of the swan or goose neck hollowing tools have several things in common such as:

Length- they are longer than normal tools to get into deep vessels

Diameters- the diameter of the stock is bigger since they overhang the rest so much

Offset- for undercutting the shoulder or rim, they have some sort of goose neck or angled offset

Some, but not all of them have an outrigger or stabilization method to keep them from rolling when you have a heavy cut or a catch.

Some, but not all of them also have the tip of the tool in line with the axis of the tool to prevent rolling.

Since I'm making one of these tools I have incorporated the length, diameter, and the "in line" goose neck features on my tool, but not the outrigger (maybe later).

My question has to do with the shear angle that some tools incorporate, in fact some of them have a flat on the bottom of the shaft to force the correct angle of shear.

How necessary is this shear angle to the majority of hollowing? Will a shear angle prevent quick removal of stock or facilitate it? My question is mostly - should I incorporate the shear angle on the tool? Why or why not? (And if I do, what angle is best?)

[Jeff Nicol]

Jim, When I make all my gooseneck tools, the cutters may be small 1/8" square to 1/4" thick by 1/2" wide. But my favorite is a piece of circle saw blade from the table saw or skil saw. I can cut them at any shape I want and grind them to any angle I choose. When I am roughing out the HF the cutter is more pointed and a little longer so the point and the leading edge of the cutter will cut together. It depends on how you hold the tool to get the best cut, tipping in down, up or a slight roll to get the best performance from the cutter. Once you find the sweet spot and are going to use an extra brace to stop twisting and torquing the tool, there should be some place to lock the cutter to your desired position. It could be that the part that hold the cutter is on a smaller shaft with set screws to twist it in to position and lock in place, or the extra support can be where the twisting conection could be. So far I have not added any extra support to mine and like this as I can continually change the position of the cutter while moving in and out of the HF. Everyone has a different place that works for them so mess around with it and you will find your happy place!

Jeff

[Burt Alcantara]

Jeff,
Any chance of a photo? I'm very much interested in the design of a tool to get underneath near horizontal rims.

Thanks,
Burt

[Jim Underwood]

I'm not sure whether you answered my question...:confused:

Here's a not very good picture of what I'm talking about:

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/106110-img.jpg
And here's another one:
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/util/enlarge_popup?Args=&imgsrc=/products/additional_images/eliminator-tang_l.jpg


These images show the flats milled on the bottom of the so-called "Eliminator" hollowing tool. This cants the round carbid insert left or right depending one which flat you hold it on. It would illustrate my question better if the photo from the current Packard catalog were available- but I can't find it.

My question is whether I should incorporate this kind of cant into the bend on my hollowing tool or not. It will be much more difficult to incorporate it after I bend it....

I guess a picture of it's current state would be beneficial. I'll run up to the shop and get it right quick.
Here it is. The lower tool is just a straight tool for getting in the bottom. It works sufficiently well if your hole you drilled to the bottom didn't drift off center.

The unhandled tool is the future goose neck tool. As you can see the set screws determine the angle of the bit in relation to the shaft.

My question is whether I should incorporate a shear angle in the bend of the goose neck or not. It's not about the angle at which to grind the bit. Does that clarify?
*And before anyone tells me, yes the set screws are too big. It's what I had on hand...

[Ryan Baker]

In your case, I would say no, don't try to add an extra shear angle. Tools with that type of cutter normally don't have them. Besides, which way would you angle it? Whichever one you pick, you will be screwed when you need to cut in the other direction.

Some tools have to have the angle -- such as the Hunter style carbide cutters. If you try to use that without the shear angle you will get into big trouble in a hurry. Scrapers are a mixture -- often used without the angle for roughing and with some shear for finishing. A lot of that can just be changed on the fly buy the way you hold the tool and present it to the work. It just depends on the type of cutter and the way you want to use it.

My suggestion would be to leave the tool bit straight as you have it. It's more useful that way. Then you can make (or buy) a shear adapter that fits into the cutter hole you have and holds a scraper or carbide disc at the shear angle. Or better yet, just make multiple tools for different jobs. There's no such thing as a hollowing tool that works for any job.

[Jim Underwood]

I think your suggestion to use an adapter or tool insert which already has shear is a good one.

But, in which situation would you envision needing a goose neck tool to need the opposite shear angle? I can't think of any.

As for the suggested tools to insert in this thing, do you have suggestions? (I am remembering in Darryl Feltmates hook tool (http://www.aroundthewoods.com/hooktool.shtml).)

[Jeff Nicol]

Jim, The angle of the grind on the tool is not what I was really getting at. Like was said in a previous post to this thread, having something flat that keeps you at a certain shear angle is not what I would reccomend. Most of mine are round stock and I have one that is 6 sided just because it was in the junk drawer! The tools you show the pictures of use a solid carbide cutter that mostly follows the angle on the side of the shaft, this supports the cutter and gives a real positive shear scrape but you are stuck with the shape and cut of the round cutter. I can change to anything I want at any length and thickness if I want to.

Burt, Here are some pictures of what I mean of different mounting and cutter shapes. The top cutter is a heavy old pry bar that I grond off to mount many different cutters on it. I have made different hold downs for square stock that work great. The next one the cutter is mounted on the bottom of the shaft and the shaft is milled flat. I started out with this one first and the flat helps stop it from tipping when I want a fine shear cut. The next one is a straight shaft that is bored out to 3/8" and I can add any type neck to it I choose made from rod or as the one that is in there a pin from a receiver hitch! I had my Dad turn it down to 3/8" so it would fit in the shaft. The next one the smaller gooseneck is 3/8" rod with the cutter mounted to a flat ground to the top of the rod, not sure if it makes a difference but I have to try everything! The next one is a standard 3/4" boring bar that has a slot for a 1/4" HSS square cutter in both ends, one is at a 45 and the other is 90 to the shaft. I can loosen a set screw and rotate it end for end. The next is an Oland tool that I use 1/4" stock and a 5/16" reground drill bit cutter in. The last one is the big shear scraper that I use as the finishing cuts on deep HF's. The other is some of the different cutters I use made from saw blades.

Keep trying different things it will come to you!

Jeff

[Jim Underwood]

Ok. Wow. Um...:o

You're the master at the hollowing tool thing... I guess you know what you're talking about.

That's quite the variety...

So... no shear angle on my tool then eh?

[Burt Alcantara]

Jeff,
Great photos! How long do your cutters hold an edge? I have the Easy tools and some Shellix cutters. I did a side by side comparison. Hands down winner was the Easy cutter. Easy cutter is $15 +/-. Shellix is $3 +/-. I've also got a HSS Co5 1/4" in my Oland. Initially, I thought the Oland would be redundant but I like it to do the grunt roughing of hollow forms then switch to the Ci1 for more refined roughing, and to prolong the cutter life.

Now, I want to make hollowing tools, much like you have, to do the final cuts. But I'd like to use the sharpest and toughest cutters possible so I don't have to visit the grinder multiple times for each form. Also, I'm making forms that have nearly flat tops and I'm having a problem getting under the rim.

Thanks for your great photos and descriptions,
Burt

[Jeff Nicol]

Jim and burt,

The cutters I make from the saw blades last a long time, when roughing out I may sharpen a couple times or just hit them with a diamond hone. For the final shear scrape I use the kind of half round oval one so I can get right to the bottom and all the way to the top. Since I am only taking very light cuts that are like fuzzy snow they last until I am satisfied with the piece. I have hardened some with the heat tempering and they last a little longer but not that much for the extra effort, and it is so fast to make more that I may have three or 4 ready to change out of different shapes when they are needed. I will make a short video and post in on Youtube through my website to show how it all goes!

Have fun and I am stingy with the cash so sometimes ugly and function are better that pretty and expensive!

Jeff

[Wally Dickerman]

Jeff,
Great photos! How long do your cutters hold an edge? I have the Easy tools and some Shellix cutters. I did a side by side comparison. Hands down winner was the Easy cutter. Easy cutter is $15 +/-. Shellix is $3 +/-. I've also got a HSS Co5 1/4" in my Oland. Initially, I thought the Oland would be redundant but I like it to do the grunt roughing of hollow forms then switch to the Ci1 for more refined roughing, and to prolong the cutter life.

Now, I want to make hollowing tools, much like you have, to do the final cuts. But I'd like to use the sharpest and toughest cutters possible so I don't have to visit the grinder multiple times for each form. Also, I'm making forms that have nearly flat tops and I'm having a problem getting under the rim.

Thanks for your great photos and descriptions,
Burt

Tantung steel is the best you can find for cutters. Very expensive but worth it IMO. Dennis Stewart cutters are Tantung. I've been using them for years on my Stewart tool. The edge lasts several times as long as HSS. Most of the pro turners selling myrtlewood turnings on the Oregon Coast turn with scrapers with a tantung cutter brazed to a heavy bar of mild steel.

Tantung steel is very hard but can be sharpened on a grinder. It is between high speed steel and carbide for hardness. Can't touch it with a drill.

Wally

[Jim Underwood]

Tantung steel is very hard but can be sharpened on a grinder. It is between high speed steel and carbide for hardness. Can't touch it with a drill.

Wally

I have something like that I've been using for a thin parting tool (.050"). Salvaged broken straps from a Yates American End Matcher. I burned up the tip of several drills trying to drill through it for handle rivets.

Bad Dog Tool's carbide drills work though. I just can't bring myself to spend the $90 for the set.

I bet this stuff would make good material for this project.

How easy is it to drill the sawblade matl?