Coming up on 1 year and PM2000 saw still not set up ....

[Lewis Cobb]

Here's a sad story for you -

I have been almost a year now trying to set up a PM2000 - yes, that's right - almost a year. Mind you the first few months the machine never came out of the crate as I was trying to finish some construction in the workshop and I foolishly thought that there would be no problems.

The first saw had the top corroded so bad Powermatic swapped the entire machine - I invested several days in re-building the crate and re-crating everything back up.

Month or so passes - new crate arrives - I open it up and the top is ok but the entension wings are rusted. I have them send me new ones - twice. The first set never made it to me - they got damaged and ended up back at Powermatic. The next ones arrived - also rusted. Another couple of months has now passed.

I figured out a way to get the rust off and then went to check the flatness of the wings - they are warped - a good 32nd of an inch sag in the center of each of them. Call Powermatic - they say no problem, just get the center flush, clamp that bolt and use C clamps at each end to bring them flush with the saw.

Checked the saw for flatness before getting the wings bolted on and it's dead flat - hardly able to push a .0015 feeler guage under a straightedge anywhere on the table.

Bolted up the extension wings - clamped them in place as instructed - bolted them tight and then checked the table - warped with sags from .010 - .020" in a number of places.

Another 6 hours trying shims above and below the bolts of the extension wings to try and get them level with the table to no avail.

Finally take the wings completely off the tablesaw again and for some reason, decide to check the top of the saw - what was dead flat now has sags and dips in excess of .010" - seems the extension wings managed to warp the top of the saw itself as they were clamped up for about 24 hours.

Not sure what to do at this point. I bought 3 other PM machines at the same time as this saw and had no issues with them at all.

Maybe if there are some techniques on flattening tops / wings that I am not aware of, someone can chime in. Also, advice such as send the POS back in a crate again will also be considered.....

Cheers,
Lewis

[Leo Vogel]

Get refund - you will never be happy with the saw after all of this.

[Lewis Cobb]

Get refund - you will never be happy with the saw after all of this.

Leo - You could be right. I'll be calling them on Tuesday and see what the options are then. I've been pretty patient up to now, but it's starting to wear thin.

[Jim O'Dell]

Bolt the wings back on for another 24 hours, only this time upside down...see if it changes the saw's top back to where it was??? Geee, I don't know. Seems strange that the wings could effect the top that quickly.
I will say this, and I know that a lot of people love their PM 2000s, but the first one I saw at a woodworking show, I guess about 3 years ago when they came out, did not impress me. Lots of nice features, but there was something about the saw that just didn't hit the sweet spot for me. (and here I'm thinking about ordering a saw sight unseen!!:rolleyes:) Jim.

[Bruce Page]

After all that, I would also send it back. You have gone above and beyond normal patience levels.

[Simon Dupay]

use it and see how it cuts first.

[Lewis Cobb]

I re-checked the table top tonight after supper and it seems to have settled back a bit from before - still sagging on each side with a high spot in the middle of the table but the numbers are now more like .007-.009" - will check again tomorrow. I've got plenty of time before Tuesday when I get on the horn with Powermatic anyway. I also thought I might swap the wings from the position they were in before in case by some stroke of luck, they pull the table in the right direction. But it seems to me the weight of the wings and/or a mis-match of the machined surfaces is twisting the saw top when the wings are bolted down.

I'm sure the fellows at Powermatic will stick with the problems I am having until they are solved based on the response and treatment I have gotten so far with all the other issues. It's more a question of when my patience gives out. Up to now I have had plenty of other things to do setting up my shop, but I am quickly getting to the point where everything is set up and I am staring at this saw in the corner, while I make do with my old beater Delta contractor's saw.

[Philip Johnson]

Boy I ordered a new powermatic shaper sight unseen now I am a bit nervous

[glenn bradley]

+1 on a return. Every little thing would bug me from this point on. There are other fine saws in that price range. JMHO based on my personality ;-)

[Jason White]

I agree with Simon.

I think you're obsessing too much over thousands of an inch.

At the end of the day, does the saw cut tight-fitting joints? Are your rips and crosscuts straight and square?

Put away the feeler gauge and try making something with your saw. Then decide if it needs to go back.

Jason



use it and see how it cuts first.

[Jason White]

If the wings are somehow making the table not flat when you bolt it up, try filing off any burrs on the edges where the extension wings and tabletop connect. After that, try bolting and shimming again.

Also, make sure you're not pushing the shims too far up into the joint between the wings and table. The shims should only be about 1/4" from the bottom edge. I had trouble the first time I tried shimming until I figured this out.

Jason


I re-checked the table top tonight after supper and it seems to have settled back a bit from before - still sagging on each side with a high spot in the middle of the table but the numbers are now more like .007-.009" - will check again tomorrow. I've got plenty of time before Tuesday when I get on the horn with Powermatic anyway. I also thought I might swap the wings from the position they were in before in case by some stroke of luck, they pull the table in the right direction. But it seems to me the weight of the wings and/or a mis-match of the machined surfaces is twisting the saw top when the wings are bolted down.

I'm sure the fellows at Powermatic will stick with the problems I am having until they are solved based on the response and treatment I have gotten so far with all the other issues. It's more a question of when my patience gives out. Up to now I have had plenty of other things to do setting up my shop, but I am quickly getting to the point where everything is set up and I am staring at this saw in the corner, while I make do with my old beater Delta contractor's saw.

[Jacob Reverb]

I think you're obsessing too much over thousands of an inch.

At the end of the day, does the saw cut tight-fitting joints? Are your rips and crosscuts straight and square?

Put away the feeler gauge and try making something with your saw. Then decide if it needs to go back.


I agree with the above. It's a tool, not a decoration, so use it.

If you send back extension wings because they get rusty, I do not predict a happy future in woodworking for you.

If people would put away their feeler gauges and runout gauges and just learn to use the machinery, I think they'd be surprised what they could do with "substandard" equipment. On the other hand, you could chase the dragon of flatness, squareness and parallellness for the rest of your life and never achieve perfection – and only realize too late that you could have been cutting wood all that time.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree with the above. It's a tool, not a decoration, so use it.

If you send back extension wings because they get rusty, I do not predict a happy future in woodworking for you.

If people would put away their feeler gauges and runout gauges and just learn to use the machinery, I think they'd be surprised what they could do with "substandard" equipment. On the other hand, you could chase the dragon of flatness, squareness and parallellness for the rest of your life and never achieve perfection – and only realize too late that you could have been cutting wood all that time.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Agreed. I have been making a living with my saws for close to thirty years and I have never checked them for flat. When they rust I hit them with a board sander, spray on a little top coat and get back to work. I think you are obsessing.

[Philip Johnson]

Is your straight edge straight, maybe a little burr on the end from being banged or dropped, I just checked my cheapo one and it is not straight.

[Lewis Cobb]

Hi Folks -
Thanks for the all the input. I am trying not to obsess over this thing but I think most will agree with me that .020" is really not acceptable for a machine in this price range. That's what I was seeing in a couple of spots yesterday and seeing the top become warped from just bolting and unbolting the wings does not seem right to me either.

I'm going to try another variation today to see if it makes any difference - swapping the wings left/right. That's one thing that I never tried yesterday.

As for checking for burrs on the edges - they were all removed before I started the assembly and let me tell you, there were lots of them. I also made sure the shims were close to the surface either below or above the mounting bolts when I clamped them in place.

And the straightedge - well just for grins and giggles I took the thing to a buddy's place that has a granite table about a month ago when I got it. it's just one of the cheap alumimum ones but I was shocked when we literally could not fit a .0015 guage under it anywhere - it was dead flat. Haven't dropped it (yet :) )

I'll keep tinkering and let you know how I make out.

Thanks again for the advice (and reality checks:D)

Cheers,
Lewis

[Phil Phelps]

Lewis, to begin with, is the top flat? Are the wings flat? Are you just having this deflection when you bolt the wings to the table top?

[Lewis Cobb]

Lewis, to begin with, is the top flat? Are the wings flat? Are you just having this deflection when you bolt the wings to the table top?


Hi Phil -

I just came in from the shop and another session at this saw. I have documented all my measurements in the hopes that someone might be able to coach me along with some shimming experience. In any case, I'll run them by Powermatic and see what they say is normal specs. I seem to recall that .010" is the flatness spec and if so, I am way off on that in a couple of places.

Here's the story -

The top was dead flat before I started the whole exercise and the wings had a bit of "bow" in them lenghwise - a sag of about .020-.030 in the middle.

I turned the wings over on a flat surface, left them that way with weights on them for a few days before I started, to see if they would straighten out any and they did - but only slightly. Powermatic suggested this and said as weird as it sounds it has helped in some cases in the past.

After I did a several hour session of bolting, unbolting, shimming, re-shimming etc. I took the wings completely off and measured the top - it had been pulled out of flat by as much as .015" - I was measuring side to side in three places, front to back in three places , and diagonally - each way.

I returned to the shop today after some other useless tasks like mowing the lawn had been taken care of. I re-measured the table top and found that it did settle out a bit - but not back to flat. From left to right it looks like the top is crowned in the middle with the sides .004" to 0.008" down on one side and the other side .004-.006". Not that bad, but I suspected this would increase once the wings are on and cantilevered out on the edge.

Decided to flip the wings from side to side from the way I tried it yesterday - and re-measured the wings before assy. One was pretty good with a dip of .006" in the center, the other much worse at .021" dip in the center.

Bolted them up - got the edges flush perfectly by getting the center flush first, tightening that bolt, then with C-clamps and wood blocks on each end, bringing the table and wing flush on each end.

Here's the final result
Left/Right Right Wing- same crowning but worse - on the right side the three measurements are -.010, .-.012, and -0.010. Again, the tabletop is crowned a bit so I am not sure shims under the bolts on this wing will correct things much but I may try it tomorrow.

Left/Right - Left Wing - the two edges front and back are perfect but the center of the wing is sagging by about -.010"

Front to back is pretty good - most places where there are gaps they are in the center and are about .004" - basically nothing. One place however on the right wing in the center is -.012.

Diagonally - one way I have -.012 on one end. The other diagonal is the bad one - at one end of the diagonal it's -0.017-0.020" and the other end it's -.004.

The bad diagonal measurement is on the corner of the right wing which seems to be the evil one in all these measurements. Again, I am not sure that shimming this one will correct these issues but am willing to give it a try.

I'm going to leave the saw with the wings bolted on overnight or for a day or so - to see if things settle out any. If anything the saw will need to calm down from all the swearing I was doing at it earlier.

In general these measurements are not really bad with the exception of that one on the diagonal, so perhaps some twiddling and I can call it done. Sure looks impressive with the wings on it though - huge field of cast iron stretching out in front of you....

Despite all these torments I still like the machine and am looking forward to getting it set up in my shop. The integrated wheels have proved invaluable in my situation as I am always shuffling things around in my shop.

Sorry for the long winded ramble here. I'm sort of hiding in the home office at the moment for fear that my wife discovers I have come in for the day and presents me with a list of things to do.....

Cheers,
Lewis

[Phil Phelps]

Well, the good news is the top is flat. I doubt anyone is a picky as I am and my extension table has sagged over an eight of an inch. However, because the table top, and my wings, are flat it doesn't really matter because the table width supports the material I'm cutting. Those wings should be flat. No telling why they arn't, but they are cutting corners somewhere. That being said, if the saw isn't up to Powermatic's specs and they'll take it back, I don't think you'll be happy otherwise. Think about it and best wishes.

[Andy Bardowell]

I respectfully disagree with the guys who say you are obsessing Lewis, that’s not obsessing at all .020 is a lot and this is not some cheap hybrid this is supposed to be a professional cabinet saw, a precision machine that costs a lot of hard earned money. It should not come rusted, it should be de-burred and it should have fit and finish right from the factory. If you are fed up and PM offers a refund then by all means take the money and run to find another saw but if they don’t but continue to offer replacement parts and will ship and pick up then carry on and bug the hell out of them until you get what you want, don’t settle. In fact if you can help it don’t use the saw at all, buy a cheap saw that you can sell later to keep your shop working until its right, don’t even give PM the opportunity so say that you’ve used it.

[Jon Knauft]

I have to ask the question. If this were something else that cost a similar amount of money would people say you are obsessing? Say you bought a $2,500 TV and a few of the pixels were dark. Or maybe the screen had a minute scratch on it. I think most people would return it. Since you've spent the money I think there are certain expectations of what quality you should be receiving from the manufacturer. If people don't bring things like this to the manufacturers attention the quality we get from them will probably decline. Just my 2 cents.

-Jon

[Aaron Berk]

Tell it like it is Andy!
My time and my money are not worth wasting, if I ordered a $10 caliper and it came to me rusted I'd send it back, and if I paid the price for a PM2000 I sure wouldn't settle for anything but perfection. Personally my money and time are so valuable that I would have quit and demanded a tech come set up their out of wack saw after the 2nd problem.

Do what fells right for you Lewis
I feel for ya.


I respectfully disagree with the guys who say you are obsessing Lewis, that’s not obsessing at all .020 is a lot and this is not some cheap hybrid this is supposed to be a professional cabinet saw, a precision machine that costs a lot of hard earned money. It should not come rusted, it should be de-burred and it should have fit and finish right from the factory. If you are fed up and PM offers a refund then by all means take the money and run to find another saw but if they don’t but continue to offer replacement parts and will ship and pick up then carry on and bug the hell out of them until you get what you want, don’t settle. In fact if you can help it don’t use the saw at all, buy a cheap saw that you can sell later to keep your shop working until its right, don’t even give PM the opportunity so say that you’ve used it.

[Carl Babel]

I am surprised about the rust. Seems like the few machines that I have purchased new always had a good coat of "cosmoline" on them. Never bought a new Powermatic, though.

Lewis - I hope that either they make it right for you, or you find peace with what you've got.

[joe milana]

Give 'em HELL Lewis. That's suppose to be a top shelf saw. Remind them of how many potential customers are hearing about their product on this website. I get so disgusted with all the crap I bring home only to have to box it back up and take it back. I expect it from the Walmart, or the BORG, or maybe Grizzly, but not that company, and at their prices.

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Lewis, have you ever had a saw with a perfect top? What saws have you used before this? Have you every worked in a woodshop?

Would you mind posting some pictures of the items you make that require a top with less than .01 flatness?

[Glen Gunderson]

Lewis, have you ever had a saw with a perfect top? What saws have you used before this? Have you every worked in a woodshop?

Would you mind posting some pictures of the items you make that require a top with less than .01 flatness?

What's the point of buying a $2500+ saw if it doesn't meet tight tolerances and stringent quality control? Cabinet saws are pretty much identical in design from company to company, so quality of castings and manufacturing is one of the primary things that differentiate one from another. If someone pays that much for a saw I don't think it's out of line to expect the saw's parts to be machined with tremendous accuracy.

If the wings came that warped who's to say that other parts of the saw might not be substandard? Also, at what point does warpage become a problem? The top warped .01 of an inch overnight, what if it continues to warp over time, past the warranty? A good woodworker can work around some might big deficiencies in his machines, but why should someone have to when they just dropped that much money on a brand new saw?


I made an MDF torsion box assembly table a couple of weeks ago that was flat within .01 inches over the length of my 50" straight edge, so I don't see why it's too much to expect Powermatic to make their saw's table tops flatter than that.

[Lewis Cobb]

Seems like there's some strong opinions on both sides of the fence with this one. I guess everyone is different and some will slap a 2500 dollar machine together, bang a belt sander on it to take of the rust and start using it. Others will measure every minute detail and torture themselves until there's 0.000000" of error, and others will simply return the saw in disgust at the first sign of trouble.

I'm a patient lad by most standards and tend to plod along until the issues are resolved. I like things to be right out of the box but will work with the supplier until they are and not blow up about it. I think the tech at Powermatic is happy to hear me call him to tell you the truth - we've sort of become buds after all the months have passed trying to sort things out and unlike some of the other calls he gets every other day, there's always a pleasant tone to our converstions and we've had some great discussions about Tennessee and where I live up here in Canada. He told me once that he gets calls from people screaming at him and swearing about a 10 year old machine that has been abused (i.e. pieces welded on it in a back yard somewhere) and they expect it to be covered under warranty :eek:

I really want the PM2000 saw - I liked the features on it, and I still do. If it takes the full 5 years of warranty to continually swap pieces and even full machines, so be it. It helps that I already have another saw that is still set up and being used in the shop so there's no need to fire up the PM2000 until it's ready to go. Smartest thing I ever do is never dispose of something I am "upgrading" until the upgrade is fully on line. The old Delta contractor's saw will serve me fine until the PM2000 is ready to go.

At the time I bought this saw, I also bought a Powermatic 15" planer and 8" jointer with the helical heads and a 14" bandsaw as well as a second 8" jointer for a friend of mine - all on the same order. This was no small amount of change. Other than the PM2000, there's been no problem at all with them, they were fine right out of the crates and I have been happily using my machines for months. It's possible to get good machines from Powermatic - I guess I have not hit the correct one in the PM2000 version yet ! Someday I will post my own gloat thread on my machines but it just does not seem right until they are all set up and working properly :)

I'm in the middle of compiling the measurements and will post up the images when I have them done. I am sure the fellows at Powermatic will work with me to sort this out - it's just depressing to have to slog my way through it after this long.

Cheers,
Lewis

[Samuel Brooks]

This is a great attitude to take and a lot less stressful.

Being an owner of several Jet machines and a Powermatic 14" bandsaw I have been very happy with the company and I will continue to support my local retailers with business.

5 Year warranties are nice :-).

Have a great day.

Sam

[Larry Edgerton]

Here is a thought.

Yesterday while you were fretting about a few thousands, I went to my shop and built an over the fridge cabinet, an raised panel floor to ceiling end panel to hide the fridge, and put together a bathroom vanity with raised panel ends using my tablesaws that have never even been checked. One of them is a Powermatic by the way.

So you see, while you are obsessing you are unproductive, and not enjoying woodworking. Will you hold your work to the same standards? If so I see very little return for your investment because you will drive yourself nuts with things that are immaterial.

My 2 cent.....

[Grant Vanbokklen]

But if a perfect top is not in the cards for this saw don't wait a year to resolve. I've used Uni's for nearly 30 years and all have had .01 or more I'm sure. I always thought that was tolerable so I'm not in your camp with regards to fretting about it.

Contact some other maker and ask if they can provide a perfect top. How about General they make a great saw? Or get a SawStop.

Go to the shops of a some other fine woodworkers in your area who make a living making great woodworking and measure their saws, I bet you'd come away with a different perspective.

[D-Alan Grogg]

Here's a sad story for you -

I have been almost a year now trying to set up a PM2000 - yes, that's right - almost a year. Mind you the first few months the machine never came out of the crate as I was trying to finish some construction in the workshop and I foolishly thought that there would be no problems.

The first saw had the top corroded so bad Powermatic swapped the entire machine - I invested several days in re-building the crate and re-crating everything back up.

...

Cheers,
Lewis

I'm curious about letting the machine sit in the crate for a few months. Could this have contributed to the corrosion? It's not clear to what conditions the crate was exposed. Personally, my PM2000 had the CI table top and CI wings covered in anti-corrosion film. I'm sure this helps prevent corrosion, but won't totally eliminate corrosion. However, my rails were slightly bent (not enough to notice until I tried to slide the fence from the blade to the end of the rails). Powermatic not only sent out new rails, but sent a new extension table because I had drilled the holes based on the bent rails. There was also a very small divot in the table top where the top joins to one wing. It was clearly a cosmetic issue, so I ignored it. I never checked my table for flatness with feeler gauges because they appeared to meet my eyeball flatness standard. The wings also met my finger flushness standard. I also know that my extension table will expand and contract over the seasons. Enough to make it fail my finger flushness standard where it meets the wing. Most of the time, this will not affect the fit of any workpiece. But, I adjust it if necessary and get on to woodworking.

I agree that you are entitled to a quality saw for the price of a PM2000. But like others, I also wonder if maybe you are obsessing a bit too much about 100 th's of an inch. Maybe you've already done this, but wouldn't it be prudent to ask a 2nd opinion about the flatness? Sometimes another set of eyes sees things a bit differently. It seems you may not be happy if you scratch it as that scratch will affect local flatness of the top. It's nearly impossible to prevent scratches when using a TS.

[Will Blick]

1) Does Powermatic have a specification for table flatness? If so, what is it?

2) I have a few power tools with unflat tops, as well, into the many hundreds, way out of the thous league. These tools were in the $3k+ price range. I have come to the conclusion, its very hard to control metal over large distances, and changing environments.

3) While some tools such as the bandsaw have less need for an ULTRA flat table, other tools are more sensitive to table flatness. Of course the most obvious one is the jointer, which I too obsess over. The TS IMO, need for ULTRA flatness (under a couple thous) is based on how you plan to use the saw. If you cut small finish type parts, than this can effect your work. If you cut larger pieces, I doubt the finished pieces will reflect the lack of flatness in the table top. There is many other variables in the saw that will reflect cut quality, so table flatness is not the only contributor.... its possible, even at .02" flatness error, it won't be the weak link in the chain.

By no means am I belittling your desire to have a flat top. I often feel the same way. There is nothing wrong with desiring well tuned machines. For some, this is part of the hobby..... for others, they feel just making projects is the all that matters. Often those type tend to come down hard on the "precsion guys". It's human nature. I think you have a healthy attitude towards this.... and I really wonder if your problem is unique, or commonplace with the PM2k. There is a good chance not many people check flatness to this degree....or if they do, its when the saw is new, then often never re check it.


If you can afford it, I would consder the SS as well, this saw has attention paid to every detail, its possible their allowance for flatness errors are much less than PM's? I have considered one myself

[Jeff Willard]

1) Does Powermatic have a specification for table flatness? If so, what is it?


The inspection sheet for my 66, dated 8/29/01 states .010" max. allowable gap, measured diagonally, with feeler gauges.

[Karl Brogger]

.010", Who cares? I'm with Larry on this. I too have never checked to see how flat a saw top is. If the blade is vertical, sits parallel to the mitre slots, and the fence is where you want it, (I run a bit of toe out instead of perfectly parallel). I can't see how it could effect anything with such small numbers. This is made for cutting wood, not for producing parts for the space shuttle.

The PM2000 is built in China, it is not a top grade saw, nor is it an industrial grade machine. Isn't it nice how little purchasing power there is with $2500?

If you absolutely must have a flawlessly flat top, take it off and send it to a machinest and have them grind it down. Even then once you bolt it down and give it time it probably won't be flat.

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Send that one back since I doubt you'll ever be happy with it after all the fretting.

Then get a new Canadian made General and never check the top more than putting the straight edge to it and a very quick eyeball that the wings don't dip considerably. Then get to cutting wood.

[Lewis Cobb]

Seems I hit a bit of a nerve with some folks on this issue - the counter is really climbing on the hits !

At the end of the day I am sure I'll get it all worked out - and I am not really fretting about it as some think I am - merely measuring and checking and pondering if the numbers I am getting are out of whack or not. I think they are. I would like to feel I have a "normal" PM2000 - if the .010" spec for the PM66 is any indication, I do not. Mind you, I won't really know until I talk to the tech tomorrow. You Americans are not working today. Actually, even though I am in Canada I am not "working" per se either :D - well, I was, but I'm sort of taking a break at the moment .....

I have plenty of projects that are moving along as I have my other old contractor saw, along with all the other Powermatic machines I bought so there's no real "gap" in working on projects. I planned on keeping the old saw until I was real sure the PM2000 was set up and ok.

Someone asked about the corrosion - this was a weird one. The first saw that showed up was well packed with cosmoline and plastic etc. on the saw top - but when I stripped it all off - here the top was actually pitted - something that had to have occurred at the factory prior to shipment. There was no issue with PM - they just swapped the entire crate. The extension wings however looked like they were not coated properly and there was some corrosion all around the edges - looked like someone splashed acid all over one of them. The next set that arrived had some surface rust that I managed to strip off myself without too much hassle. In fact, they were going to send out yet another set but I found some stuff that would work and wanted to give it a try. It worked so we were good to go.

I'll be sure to post up here what I learn from the tech service guys.

[Lewis Cobb]

Send that one back since I doubt you'll ever be happy with it after all the fretting.

Then get a new Canadian made General and never check the top more than putting the straight edge to it and a very quick eyeball that the wings don't dip considerably. Then get to cutting wood.


Not so fast Grant ! I have heard of issues with them as well ! Not many mind you - but that's probably a function of how many are sold relative to the larger suppliers like Powermatic, Jet etc. Someone even told me once that some of the parts on the General are actually coming from *gulp* China now as well - but that's just rumor that I cannot confirm.......

[Jacob Mac]

You could always get a SC granite top saw. That might be your best bet for a flat table. But those obviously have issues as well. The PM 2000 looks like a sweet saw, so once you have it worked out, I bet it will be a beauty.

I think you are taking a sensible tack. Get the issues with the saw worked out and enjoy ww in the process. And the good news is that PM is working with you, so I am sure it will be resolved.

[Lewis Cobb]

Well, Powermatic's tech I have been working with is keen to try some new wings as a first step. I've got my doubts based on the location of the depressions and the state of the table to begin with without any wings attached but am willing to try. I earlier sent them all the data that I measured and explained the steps I went through.

I have only been able to bounce e-mails back and forth all day as he's so swamped on the phone. Seems the long weekend saw a back-log of service requests and now the flood gates are open and everyone is calling tech service today...

I for one like to read threads on forums that have some closure to them and not left dangling, so I'll try and post the results as/when they come in.

Cheers,
Lewis

[Dennis McGarry]

I have to say here, is there where we have come to? Ahh whats a few 100'ths of an in between friends? As long as it works......

That is a mind set in my opinion that has caused the down fall of our economy! No pride. Little exceptions and complacency.

Wether its a 10 dollar clamp or 2500.00 saw, right is right.

For my multimedia editing room, I went through 15 lcd' screens until I found 4 that worked perfect. Same brightness and color, same levels of black across them all.

Did it cost me time? Yes, Did it delay any other work? Not really. Am I confident in the work they will perform from here out? YES and that is what is at stake...

[Matt Bickford]

"That is a mind set in my opinion that has caused the down fall of our economy! No pride. Little exceptions and complacency."

Classic. Powermatic is definitely taking a bath on this saw after all the freight charges of shipping XXX lbs all over the US, packaging, repackaging and discarding the 'flawed' merchandise, and customer service's time spent on the phone in an effort to stand behind their product and reputation. They're spending a lot of money and forgoing a lot of already tight margins to meet exacting standards that they've set for themselves as a result of customer demand following exacting tool reviews. Now you're blaming the entirety of the economic issues we're facing on what seems to you as an obvious lack of pride. Like I said....Classic.

I say Well done Powermatic! You're doing a lot right, as evidenced by a customer not willing to forfeit the features you've combined at the price you've offered!

If you want to make a broad economic statement: in this example, the problems should be pinned on the industry's inability to produce a competing product that Lewis is willing to opt for following 1 year of problems.

[Dennis McGarry]

"That is a mind set in my opinion that has caused the down fall of our economy! No pride. Little exceptions and complacency."

Classic. Powermatic is definitely taking a bath on this saw after all the freight charges of shipping XXX lbs all over the US, packaging, repackaging and discarding the 'flawed' merchandise, and customer service's time spent on the phone in an effort to stand behind their product and reputation. They're spending a lot of money to meet exacting standards that they've set for themselves BUT as of yet they havent meet them here. as a result of customer demand following exacting tool reviews. Now you're blaming the entirety of the economic issues we're facing on what seems to you as an obvious lack of pride. Like I said....Classic.

I say Well done Powermatic! You're doing a lot right, as evidenced by a customer not willing to forfeit the features you've combined at the price you've offered!

My definition wasnt ment at the company, but the ones who have lost the desire or will to expect complete sastisfaction from others.

Whenever anyone complains, its being petty, there for more and more companies/people get away with less then par workmanship. *rinse and repeat

In this case, PM is doing exactly what any company should do, and that is make the customer happy, and provide an item that is as described. The customer is doing his job as a consumer and expecting that.

The side chair commentators are throwing in the towel...

[Jacob Reverb]

I made an MDF torsion box assembly table a couple of weeks ago that was flat within .01 inches over the length of my 50" straight edge

Hmmm...I didn't know there was anyone manufacturing MDF to ± 10 mils. Heck, the irregularities in its surface must be 10-20 mils alone.

Did you really check the flatness of your torsion box to 10 mils over 50 inches? If so, I'm curious how you measured.

Was this a job for some sort of defense contractor? Those are some pretty tough specs!

[Glen Gunderson]

Hmmm...I didn't know there was anyone manufacturing MDF to ± 10 mils. Heck, the irregularities in its surface must be 10-20 mils alone.


You don't think a sheet of MDF is within 1/64" of itself in thickness? Sure it's often warped, but I've never noticed variations in thickness to that magnitude. Try and put a straightedge tightly against a small piece of MDF and see what kind of feeler gauge you can fit under there. I can't imagine it not being within .01 inches.



Did you really check the flatness of your torsion box to 10 mils over 50 inches? If so, I'm curious how you measured.

Was this a job for some sort of defense contractor? Those are some pretty tough specs!I don't think having a table top flat to a little under 1/64th of an inch over 50" is any great feat. When making the torsion box top I shimmed it until I couldn't fit a .01 feeler gauge under a precision straight edge at any point. I could still see light through some parts so it wasn't perfectly flat, but I measured that way in about a dozen places and all were within the tolerances I'd set. I wasn't obsessing over anything, making it that flat really didn't take that long, it was just a little clamping and shimming and rechecking through each part of the process.


I think people see numbers like .01" and assume that it's some vastly tiny figure that is incomprehensible to the human eye, but a piece of wood coming off of a properly set up jointer is easily that flat and just using the standard depth gauge on my planer I can plane different pieces of wood to within those tolerances. What would be the point of precision tools if I couldn't mill wood to within 1/64th of an inch? Skilled hand tool users can cut joints within 1/64th, so I don't see why it should be too high of a standard to do the same with power tools.

[Lewis Cobb]

Well, I have the spec at last - .010" - 10 thou flatness - that's what the tech support fellow said we're shooting for today when he called and we managed to connect on the phone after playing tag and e-mails.

Now I know - and we can work towards that. I have .018 as the worst depression. Wings are unbolted from the table - 2 new ones are leaving Powematic today. I'll probably see them in a week given that they are coming to Canada - and worse yet - in the boonies on the east coast where I live.

I really have to tip my hat to the fellow at Powermatic that's been working with me on and off for months. Like I mentioned in an earlier mail, we have become some sort of buds over the months and today half the conversation was about stuff OTHER than the tablesaw. In fact, I am getting kind of keen to take a drive to Tennessee at some point and see the countryside there and meet him. He's half convinced to go north and visit Canada someday himself and that's from a guy that's never ventured far from TN. International relations via customer support :D.

Anyway, the saw is tucked into the corner with the wings off it. I'll check the flatness periodically to see if it settles down a bit - apparently cast iron has a bit of a personality and it can take more than 24 hours for it to "calm down" once you twist it from clamping. Let's hope it does - the tabletop itself is very close to the spec at the moment.

Hey ! I got a free metal Powermatic sign out of the process as well - I saw one in the last flyer they had and mumbled asking him if any extras were kicking around now that the promotion is over. "It's on the way" I hear today. I told him I'm not hanging it up until all my machines are working and he was laughing saying he's ok with that.
Maybe he was so shocked that I would proudly hang a Powermatic sign after all this trouble (that is still not resolved), he had them make a special order one for me, who knows. I guess it's sort of a statement of my satisfaction with their customer support.

Cheers,
Lewis

[Bruce Page]

I hope you have a happy ending.

[Jacob Reverb]

You don't think a sheet of MDF is within 1/64" of itself in thickness?

Better check yer math.

0.01 is 1/100" not 1/64"

As you might admit yourself, big difference. Not an order of magnitude, but a difference of over 50%, not to put too fine a point on it.

Ten mils is about as thick as a fat human hair. Or two "blond" ;) hairs.

I don't know what kind of wood you make furniture from, but my wood moves more than that when I breathe on it, let alone when I cut it. :cool: Carry on.

[Glen Gunderson]

Better check yer math.

0.01 is 1/100" not 1/64"

As you might admit yourself, big difference. Not an order of magnitude, but a difference of over 50%, not to put too fine a point on it.



You said:


Hmmm...I didn't know there was anyone manufacturing MDF to ± 10 mils. Heck, the irregularities in its surface must be 10-20 mils alone.The middle of that range is .015 which is approximately 1/64th of an inch.




Ten mils is about as thick as a fat human hair. Or two "blond" ;) hairs.

I don't know what kind of wood you make furniture from, but my wood moves more than that when I breathe on it, let alone when I cut it. :cool: Carry on.Wood moves, but not randomly. If you make a frame and panel or a glueup with all of the joints perfectly flush and the assembly totally flat, it will generally stay that way. While the wood moves, the relationship between the pieces doesn't change much if at all. If you make something with surfaces that are 1/64th off of each other and hope it "moves" its way into alignment, you're in for a disappointment.

[Jacob Reverb]

Wood moves, but not randomly. If you make a frame and panel or a glueup with all of the joints perfectly flush and the assembly totally flat, it will generally stay that way. While the wood moves, the relationship between the pieces doesn't change much if at all. If you make something with surfaces that are 1/64th off of each other and hope it "moves" its way into alignment, you're in for a disappointment.

And that alone proves to me that you are a seasoned and experienced woodworker.

Rock on!

[Lewis Cobb]

I hope you have a happy ending.


Thanks Bruce. If nothing else, I am getting pretty proficient at putting the wings on and off now. I have a system worked out with a little table beside the saw that holds the wing at the same level as the saw - just push the wing up to the saw and finger tight the bolts then pull the table away again. Voila ! No lifting and grunting.

Cheers,
Lewis

[Chuck Saunders]

Lewis, I think that if you were being unreasonable, your tech would not be as friendly. It appears to me that you want what was promised and PM wants to deliver what they promised. Your patience will reward you. While this is not the PM of old it sounds like the support is still pretty good. If the machine is in spec but not perfect, get over it. However if the machine is out of spec you have not gotten what you paid for. The fact that the machine might be functional is really not the issue. You can cut wood with a circular saw bolted to the underside of a table but I wouldn't pay much for that workable setup. I hope this settles out for you soon.

[Lewis Cobb]

Lewis, I think that if you were being unreasonable, your tech would not be as friendly. It appears to me that you want what was promised and PM wants to deliver what they promised. Your patience will reward you. While this is not the PM of old it sounds like the support is still pretty good. If the machine is in spec but not perfect, get over it. However if the machine is out of spec you have not gotten what you paid for. The fact that the machine might be functional is really not the issue. You can cut wood with a circular saw bolted to the underside of a table but I wouldn't pay much for that workable setup. I hope this settles out for you soon.


Chuck - you've pretty much nailed the situation I think. I'm not looking for something that is more than what is "standard issue". I know that others have these saws and they are very happy with them and I will be as well....eventually :)

I had a good laugh at the circular saw bolted to a table comment. Brings me back about 30 years when I was much younger and at the time pretty much knew it all. "I don't need no stinking tablesaw- this will work just as well"..... Wish now I had saved a few of the things that I cut with that setup as it would surely bring a lot of laughs.

Funny how the wisdom acquired over time works. There was a famous author whose name escapes me now that wrote the following -
" When I was 18 I could not stand to be around my father becuase I thought he was so ignorant and stupid, but by the time I turned 23 I respected him for his knowledge and experience........it's amazing how much the old man learned in 5 years".........

Cheers,
Lewis

[Derek Arita]

Just to throw in another adjustment variable...
My PM2000 had a main table top that was not flat. I shimmed around the table/base mounting bolts in various places to get the table flat. Placing the shims in different positions around each bolt resulted in raising or lowering the table in different places. I was able to get the table flat to .002". If you're picky, this is not an uncommon thing to have to do.

[Lewis Cobb]

Just to throw in another adjustment variable...
My PM2000 had a main table top that was not flat. I shimmed around the table/base mounting bolts in various places to get the table flat. Placing the shims in different positions around each bolt resulted in raising or lowering the table in different places. I was able to get the table flat to .002". If you're picky, this is not an uncommon thing to have to do.


Hi Derek -
How far out was your table to start with ?
I'm willing to try that if need be when the time comes.
Did you use brass shimming material or something else, and what thicknesses of shims were you working with in general?
Thanks,
Lewis

[Paul Johnstone]

Just fyi.

I have a contractor's saw. I don't use wings on it. I have a homemade plywood extension table to the right (fence bolts on to it). I have a homemade side support on the left with drawers in it.

Neither homemade extension is within .020 of flatness. I am positive of it. Heck, I am sure if it is worse than .100 inches of flatness..

Yet, I can still cut full sheets of plywood and get good results.

I guess you have the right to expect perfection when you pay that much, but I agree with the other poster about it sucking the fun out of the hobby. Why not try to make something and see how the cuts turn out?
I think you will be surprised at how well it works.

[Derek Arita]

Hi Derek -
How far out was your table to start with ?
I'm willing to try that if need be when the time comes.
Did you use brass shimming material or something else, and what thicknesses of shims were you working with in general?
Thanks,
Lewis
It's been a little while since I did it, but I bought the brass shim stock from Lee Valley. I believe I purchased a variety pack of a few different thicknesses from .001 to .005. I was skeptical at first, but it really worked. My table top dipped in the middle, just infront of the throat, about .009". I also had a weird raised section near the right rear of the table. By using shims in various positions around each of the mounting bolts, I was able to pull the low parts up and the high parts down. Once this was done, the extensions were easy to flatten.
It makes sense to me now, that when the table mount pads on the base are not perfectly flat, cinching the table mounting bolts down can deform the top out of flat. I've had to do this on two PM66s and a PM2000. I learned it from a guy that did it to his Unisaw, so don't feel like your PM machine is alone. Once done, the PM2000 is awsome.