Your Best 3D file for a WOW giveaway... please post

[Harry Radaza]

I'm a big fan of giveaways at tradeshows. Ive done business cards and the aztec calendar.

Been reading up lately on 3d threads in this forum and have tried with success to have 3d images done.

I'm now thinking of making giveaways with a 3d image for that WOW effect.
Please post what you think would best suit this need. Please post actual file.

Thanks!

[Dee Gallo]

Been reading up lately on 3d threads in this forum and have tried with success to have 3d images done.

Harry,

Could you post pictures of what you have already done? What kinds of things would you use for "giveaways" ?

- dee

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

I'm now thinking of making giveaways with a 3d image for that WOW effect.
Please post what you think would best suit this need. Please post actual file.

What suit's one person's need doesn't always suit another. You will make a much great impact on your desired market if you tailor your 3D image to what you specialize in your business. (i.e. While a little 3D duckling may be cute, a 3D checkered flag would make a better impact to a group of racers.)

Why don't you post your actual files and then we can comment on them and suggest improvements.

[Richard Rumancik]

Harry, have you figured out what your market is for the 3D? The problem with 3D (which has been discussed here before) is that because of the time that it takes to laser anything deeply it can be tough to find a market niche (i.e. willing customers). 3D engraving is really a high-end item suitable for very select customers who are willing to pay for something unique, so I think you have to be careful how it is presented to customers. In my opinion, you don't want to make it look like a commodity item because the pricing will not be low.

I think a business card should generally reflect bread-and-butter type work. If you want to sell 3D work to art galleries and high-end shops, then that might be the place where a 3D card would be warranted, but you would not need very many.

I have found that laser art on wood to be a bit tricky to position in the minds of customers. Some years ago I licensed some artwork from a professional artist and made maple plaques with the artwork on it. But because it is made by a machine, some people don't quite value it quite the way they would value original art or even art reproductions (like prints made from a watercolor or pen-and-ink sketch). It can be a tough sell. If I had done something similar of a similar size with 3D, I would have had a lot more laser time invested and I just don't think I could find customers willing to pay.

If you are trying to target the high-end art market, you might be able to make this work, if you can convince them it is art. If you are pursuing the decorative market (like putting a 3D image on a cabinet door or other commodity item) then I personally have doubts that the laser is the right tool. A CNC router with V-carve will probably beat the laser in that market.

[Andrea Weissenseel]

Is a router that much faster than a laser when doing 3D ?

[Frank Corker]

Is a router that much faster than a laser when doing 3D ?

Infinitely faster. The laser is not really the worlds best for 3D stuff mainly because it needs to have several runs to get the job done. That said, it can do small jobs that a router would be struggling on. But slower.

[Andrea Weissenseel]

No way that I'm gonna get me an additional toy :D

[Dave Johnson29]

No way that I'm gonna get me an additional toy


Well, maybe not until you see some real 3D work with a router...:D:D:D

http://www.sawtoothcarving.com/images/JHbed3.jpg

http://www.sawtoothcarving.com/images/webdoor1.jpg

http://www.sawtoothcarving.com/

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes, a router can do 3D, but to Richard's point, they have the same problem there. I've seen small items, a couple of square feet, done in 3D on the router. Ask how long it took and they say something like "14 hours". Well, good luck in selling that to the retail consumer. People aren't going to pay $600 for your 3D routing or lasering unless you tap into some specialty market.

3D is really cool stuff and everyone loves playing with it, but it's like photos. They are all "WOW" items when people see them. Show me how you convert that "WOW" into cash. Very few people do. My guess is that if you took 2 polls, 1 with router owners who make their living from their routers, and ask them how much of their income comes from 3D, you'd be surprised. With lasers, I'd like to ask how many people sell work with photographs on them and pay the bills with that work.

I'm sure there are pockets of people who do it, but by no means is it in the majority.

You'll either make a choice, your time is worth $10 per hour, so you are fine with selling something for $60 that took you all day, or you'll decide it's not worth your time.

Just my opinion.

[Dave Johnson29]

Ask how long it took and they say something like "14 hours".


Hardly comparing apples with apples Scott.

The router is left running for 14 hours. It does not need constant monitoring or watching for smoke and fire so 13 of those 14 hours it is doing its thing.

This is a common process in industry to let things run overnight. You can get a small dialer for most CNC (all?) machines and you program in check points in the code and that will call your cell phone if something just ain't right.

I hazard a guess and would say that 60+% of CNC and EDM machines in the World that are doing long jobs are left running unattended. In fact it is normal to have cells fo CNC machines with just one operator for 5 or 6 machines even when close monitoring.

So selling something for 60-bucks that took me 1 hour to Corel and set up sounds like a good hourly rate to me.

[Scott Shepherd]

Dave, I worked for the company that invented and patented the "Cell", so I know what a cell is. I've been around CNC machines with robotic loaders for years. I've been involved in total lights out operations where you set the machine and leave it.

Not one single time have we ever figured running a machine unattended was "free" or not worth charging for.

If you'd like to log 14 hours on your machine, use electricity, consumables, and wear on your machine, knock yourself out. I don't personally know of anyone that's making a living doing 3D work on the router and making a living at it.

The sale price of 3D sign work is about $100 a square foot, finished. In my business, there is no way I'd run my machine for 8 hours straight to make $100. Again, if you want to, more power to you. But I'll take other work that is 10 times more profitable than 3D work all day long.

[Doug Griffith]

Also, 3D programming a toolpath that takes 14 hours to cut is going to take quite a bit more than an hour. Add in the cutter expense and everything else Scott mentions and the job is going to be at a loss. $100 a square foot is ridiculously cheap.

[Brian Jones FL]

1 square foot of 3d routing doesn't have to be 8 hours either.. I have done some pretty complex 3d much larger than just 1 square foot and it's done in 8 hours or less. A lot of it is finishing technique.. Things like using mop sanders to smooth a lower res rout job and torching to burn the carving allow the router to do it's job much faster. Can't just blanket state 3d is without market or benefit. There's TONS of people that happily pay for 3d carvings in a door or piece of custom furniture. The custom market is huge and people pay for the work to be done with a smile.

[Keith Outten]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=107778&d=1232721206

This eagle is 7.5" in diameter and it took 90 minutes to machine in two passes.
I agree that 3D jobs are time consuming and it is unlikely that they would ever provide any serious income for my shop compared to 2D work.

I've been a guest speaker at several events and my message to those who are considering buying their first CNC router has always been not to set your short term goals to high thinking that you just have to learn to do 3D machining. The easiest 2D work will almost always pay the bills and be more profitable in my shop but that is based on my level expertise....there are rare exceptions.

I know that there are those who are very talented, the best of the best, who have established techniques over the years that cuts their machining time in half compared to someone just starting out. They also have a well established supply of art, graphics and tool path files that are proven that can be used over and over.
.

[Keith Outten]

I've seen custom mohogany doors that were machined on a CNC router that cost $40,000.00 but it takes a lot of experience and confidence to put a very large expensive piece of wood on a CNC table and hit the start button :)
.

[Shari Loveless]

Dave,
Anyone that is crazy enough to leave their machine running "unattended" is asking for disaster. We watch that little bugger every minute while it's running. There is money to be made with 3D but it is hard earned. I spend a lot of hours (weeks is more like it) doing designs and I've purchased a couple as well. It's our artwork that sells our carvings so we have found our niche. 3D is all we do because that is what we enjoy and specialize in. To me the difference between 2D and 3D is like comparing a ford focus to a porche. You know the saying "If it were easy........."
Everybody have a great weekend,
Shari & Reese
Sawtooth Carving

[Scott Shepherd]

Can't just blanket state 3d is without market or benefit. There's TONS of people that happily pay for 3d carvings in a door or piece of custom furniture. The custom market is huge and people pay for the work to be done with a smile.

I don't think anyone has said that it's without a market or benefit. In fact, we've said there is a select group of people who do make a living from it, but most people do not.

Exactly my point Keith, there's a market for it, but it's a specialty market.

Let me clarify in case I wasn't clear. My belief/experience tells me that most people who are trying this think they can do stuff and sell it to the average Joe. However, the average Joe isn't going to pay you $600 for a sign to put on his mailbox post.

However, there's someone out there that does need a custom door made and they are willing to spend $10,000's of thousands of dollars to have it done. That's the market. However, most people don't market their businesses to people in that position, they take their work to friends and family or go to craft shows to try and sell it. Wrong clients for that work, in my opinion.

I'm certain there is a market, but like engraving photographs, it's not the market the manufacturers would lead you to believe it is.

I see a lot of cool stuff in the CNC forum. Really amazing stuff. Can't figure out how to get paid for most of it, but really cool stuff.

Just my opinion.

[Larry Bratton]

Cool yes..but you can't charge enough for it to justify the machine time in most cases.

[Dave Johnson29]

Anyone that is crazy enough to leave their machine running "unattended" is asking for disaster.


Hi Shari,

I was talking about $48,000 CNC machine and industrial strength control software. I have run jobs that took 55 hours. No way I am watching that. :D:D

I would imagine there are similar quality 3d routers available that would also be OK to run those hours unattended.

[Keith Outten]

It sounds to me like we all agree that 3D projects whether they are Laser Engraved or CNC routed are a specialty market. As such they require a whole new marketing effort geared toward a high-end customer who can afford the higher costs associated with 3D work.

The lesson to be learned by those who have never tried 3D work is that if you intend to invest your time and the necessary machine hours you should anticipate making an adjustment in your marketing effort as well. The goal then is to find a means of advertising your 3D work to a different client base. There also should be a self-evaluation to determine if you have the necessary talent to move up to 3D work. Just because your equipment is capable doesn't mean the operator has or is capable of learning the skill set required for 3D work. For people like me there is the option to purchase 3D files ready to machine, but there is a serious limit when it comes to custom projects.

Concerning leaving machines unattended there is a difference between a laser engraver and a CNC router. There is a higher risk of fire with laser engravers by design however there are reported cases of CNC machines causing fires when bits get dull or when a dust collector malfunctions. I suggest that you should never leave any machine running unattended if it is in your home or a building attached to your home. A free standing work shop that doesn't present a risk to people or your neighbors property would limit the risk to the owners facility.
.

[Dave Johnson29]

[QUOTE=Keith Outten;1140466]
however there are reported cases of CNC machines causing fires when bits get dull or when a dust collector malfunctions.
/QUOTE]

Keith,

The kind of industrial routers I refer to are those that would monitor traversing loads to the motors to indicate worn cutters. Also they would have a sensor for a exhaust failure and phone home.

One of my metalworking CNC machines has sensors on the coolant supply, while cutting it regularly checks the tool is not broken and it monitors cutting loads. If any of those issues (and about 20 others) arise then it pauses and phones home.

I would be surprised if there were not serious routers with similar facilities.

[Harry Radaza]

Allright I guess I better chime in here as I started the post and its going off.

In my particular line and in the products that we make, I am the only one who specialized in Laser engraving or is doing lasering as a focal point of all our products. That is why I need wow giveaways to help them remember me that I did in fact stand out and have something different from 95% of the other exhibitors.

So far, this has been a success for me, especially the Aztec Calendar
http://www.mli-laser.com/images/NewerAzCalSmaller2.jpg
(not mine by the way, but I did get the file to it and made my own).

Clients have come and contacted me months after because of it.

To spice things up, I was thinking of doing 3D on wood as my giveaways this time.

Hence I was asking for files from anyone who already has existing 3d files which are already laserable. It can be of anything (animals, symmetrical geometry, nature, flowers, etc).

Hopefully then I can incorporate it into an actual giveaway design and post it here for everyone to see.

[George Brown]

No way that I'm gonna get me an additional toy :D

He who dies with the most toys wins!!:D

[George Brown]

Well, maybe not until you see some real 3D work with a router...:D:D:D

http://www.sawtoothcarving.com/images/JHbed3.jpg

http://www.sawtoothcarving.com/images/webdoor1.jpg

http://www.sawtoothcarving.com/

What software do you need to create images like that??

[George Brown]

Hardly comparing apples with apples Scott.

The router is left running for 14 hours. It does not need constant monitoring or watching for smoke and fire so 13 of those 14 hours it is doing its thing.

This is a common process in industry to let things run overnight. You can get a small dialer for most CNC (all?) machines and you program in check points in the code and that will call your cell phone if something just ain't right.

I hazard a guess and would say that 60+% of CNC and EDM machines in the World that are doing long jobs are left running unattended. In fact it is normal to have cells fo CNC machines with just one operator for 5 or 6 machines even when close monitoring.

So selling something for 60-bucks that took me 1 hour to Corel and set up sounds like a good hourly rate to me.


Interesting point. Ok you sold me, I WANT a cnc router!:D

[Scott Shepherd]

What software do you need to create images like that??

George, Sheri, the first poster on this page is from the place that made those, perhaps you'll get your answer straight from the source!

[George Brown]

[QUOTE=Dave Johnson29;1140499If any of those issues (and about 20 others) arise then it pauses and phones home.

[/QUOTE]

Man, you got some NICE machines!

[Richard Rumancik]

Allright I guess I better chime in here as I started the post and its going off.
. . . .So far, this has been a success for me, especially the Aztec Calendar
(not mine by the way, but I did get the file to it and made my own).

Clients have come and contacted me months after because of it.

Harry, maybe you did not expect the debate that has started on this topic but if you say you are having success with 3D can you share your success story?

Are you giving away your version of the 3D Aztec calendar or selling them? Or do you mean 3D is successful in that people are calling/remembering you? Are they ordering 3D work or conventional lasering? How many minutes of laser time does it take to make the MLI Laser Aztec calendar? (If I recall it is about 2" or 2.5" square?)

I suppose if people keep your card and you get calls that is a good thing. But I have this feeling that if I made a 3D Aztec business cards people might expect that they could get that amount of 3D engraving for a dollar and I know I couldn't do it for that.

As far as "free" 3D images for lasering - I doubt that you will find much. You will probably have to create your own method like Dee; if you are not an artist you may be able to turn some clipart into 3D, but it is a time-consuming process and often requires some good software. (But I think Dee is trying to do it all in Corel.) There is not a lot of motivation for people/companies to create 3D images and then give away their libraries.

But if you want help on how to make your own images take a look at Dee's threads.

[Martin Boekers]

Harry, I don't know what type of machine you have but you might contact the manufacturer and see if they have a fille that they will let you use.

I know from going to the shows that Epilog has a very nice 3D file that they use for displays.

That is if your just using it for a sample.

If not consider in investing a bit in a Gantry file, from what I have seen they look great. If it's a tool that generates work for you it's worth the investment, plus you can sell products with it engraved!


Marty

[Dave Johnson29]

Man, you got some NICE machines!


George,

The phone home thing is an add-on that the previous owner had added. There is no name on the case and almost looks home made. I just run alarm inputs to it, set switch for high or low trigger or open/closed continuity for each and plug in the phone line. It will also email to gmail or text to cell phone depending on what I want.

[James Jaragosky]

Allright I guess I better chime in here as I started the post and its going off.

In my particular line and in the products that we make, I am the only one who specialized in Laser engraving or is doing lasering as a focal point of all our products. That is why I need wow giveaways to help them remember me that I did in fact stand out and have something different from 95% of the other exhibitors.

So far, this has been a success for me, especially the Aztec Calendar
http://www.mli-laser.com/images/NewerAzCalSmaller2.jpg
(not mine by the way, but I did get the file to it and made my own).

Clients have come and contacted me months after because of it.

To spice things up, I was thinking of doing 3D on wood as my giveaways this time.

Hence I was asking for files from anyone who already has existing 3d files which are already laserable. It can be of anything (animals, symmetrical geometry, nature, flowers, etc).

Hopefully then I can incorporate it into an actual giveaway design and post it here for everyone to see.
How about a biz card with your name in 3d.:eek:
Its a bitmap now but if you want i can save it as a stl.

[Harry Radaza]

A quick look at 3D I did quickly. A celtic cross. I got the file from vectorart. To form the heart on the outside, it is already done by hand. But the inside engraving is pretty much what I engraved. 25watts... 3 passes at 4min each pass for a total of 12 minutes. It is about 3inches x 4inches.

Is there some other cheap software (not the thousand dollar 3d software!) that we laser engravers can use to create images that can give us at least results similar to these? Since we are not doing FULL 3D anyway (at least as I see it). It seems it is 2.5D. And all it really is is making sure areas are lighter and darker and have a gradient fill to it. How to do this in corel I don't know ( but it does seem time consuming ). That's why I'm looking for another software that can just create the grayscale images easily to give the 2.5D look.

Maybe I should have posted this in Dee's 3D thread. Go ahead and copy it!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/harryradaza/3564649281/%22%20title=%22%28no%20subject%29%20by%20radaza,%2 0on%20Flickr%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2435/3564649281_f8fb89f644.jpg%22%20width=%22500%22%20h eight=%22500%22%20alt=%22%28no%20subject%29
http://www.flickr.com/photos/harryradaza/3564649281/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/harryradaza/3564645751/in/photostream/
http://sawmillcreek.org/%3Ca%20href=%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/harryradaza/3564645751/%22%20title=%22%28no%20subject%29%20by%20radaza,%2 0on%20Flickr%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/3564645751_8a4ed12446.jpg%22%20width=%22500%22%20h eight=%22500%22%20alt=%22%28no%20subject%29
http://sawmillcreek.org/%3Ca%20href=%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/harryradaza/3564645751/%22%20title=%22%28no%20subject%29%20by%20radaza,%2 0on%20Flickr%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/3564645751_8a4ed12446.jpg%22%20width=%22500%22%20h eight=%22500%22%20alt=%22%28no%20subject%29%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3E
http://sawmillcreek.org/%3Ca%20href=%22http://www.flickr.com/photos/harryradaza/3564649281/%22%20title=%22%28no%20subject%29%20by%20radaza,%2 0on%20Flickr%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2435/3564649281_f8fb89f644.jpg%22%20width=%22500%22%20h eight=%22500%22%20alt=%22%28no%20subject%29%22%20/%3E%3C/a%3E

[Doug Griffith]

The thing about 3D engraving is that greyscale images do not understand depth. To do it correctly, the file should really start out as a 3D file (ie. .dxf or .igs) and then the highest z-values are mapped to light tones and the lowest z-values are mapped to dark tones and everything in between. So, even if there is a cheap "conversion" program out there, the file will need to be imported as 3D in the first place. If it starts out as 2d, it will have to be "eyeballed" and manually tweaked to get something that works OK.

[James Jaragosky]

The thing about 3D engraving is that greyscale images do not understand depth. To do it correctly, the file should really start out as a 3D file (ie. .dxf or .igs) and then the highest z-values are mapped to light tones and the lowest z-values are mapped to dark tones and everything in between. So, even if there is a cheap "conversion" program out there, the file will need to be imported as 3D in the first place. If it starts out as 2d, it will have to be "eyeballed" and manually tweaked to get something that works OK.
I did the file I posted in Aspire as a 3d. so it should work properly. but I have not run any of my 3d files in my laser because I have a Chinese laser that does not read gray scale for 3d.
As I said I can save it as a stl file if that will work better.
Jim J.

[Harry Radaza]

I'm thinking, even a regular colored clipart picture or regular picture if it has correct light to dark shading, can be converted to grayscale, adjusted in photoshop to get as many grayscale levels as possible (contrast and brightness) and engrave in 3d mode...

then darkest areas would be deeper. right? I will give it a try

[James Jaragosky]

I'm thinking, even a regular colored clipart picture or regular picture if it has correct light to dark shading, can be converted to grayscale, adjusted in photoshop to get as many grayscale levels as possible (contrast and brightness) and engrave in 3d mode...

then darkest areas would be deeper. right? I will give it a try
I believe that most if not all 3d is done in 256 gray scale

[Dan Hintz]

I'm thinking, even a regular colored clipart picture or regular picture if it has correct light to dark shading, can be converted to grayscale, adjusted in photoshop to get as many grayscale levels as possible (contrast and brightness) and engrave in 3d mode...

then darkest areas would be deeper. right? I will give it a try
Yes and no... most images with shadowing have the shadows mimicking light coming from a certain direction, which is not the same as the brightness level specifying the Z-level. Our brains estimate depth based upon shadowing, but that is due to it automatically filling in missing information gleaned from experience (i.e., seeing everything in 3D since birth). If you were to etch a standard shadowed image, portions would be correctly etched while others would not (you could only look at it from a single direction for a 3D effect).

[David Fairfield]

Let's not make this too complicated. :) When you draw a graphic for 3d lasering, its just a matter of the darker the deeper. Gradients form smooth transitions.

Adobe Illustrator has a gradient fill tool, I assume Corel has an equivalent. No additional software necessary.

For a perfect example of an effective DIY 3d graphic, take a look at Dee's, which she generously posted for everyone to download. Dee combined simple gradient-filled forms to make a complex whole. Simple and effective.

HTH
Dave

[Dee Gallo]

Just for yucks, I thought I'd try to make a heart like the one you show. It took me 25 minutes to hand trace the design and 3 passes (1 1/2 minutes each) to cut through the scrap of wood I used (which was already stained, so I don't know what it would look like without stain). I did not sand or clean it either. I believe a finer grained wood will give a better effect and you could probably play around with it to make it perfect... BUT - it is possible to make with CorelDraw.

Sorry for the blurry pic, I could not seem to focus on it well. It's only 1 1/2" .

:) dee

edit: ooooo- I just looked back at the original and realized I messed up. The background should have been level with the heart... sorry!

[Dee Gallo]

So here is the corrected version on unstained wood and a side pic to show depth.

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Dee;
Beautiful- well done You got my vote as Top 3D Expert!!
Best regards;
George
LaserArts

[Dee Gallo]

Thanks, George!

Does anyone think that if it was more than 600 dpi the small design would come out smoother? Also - Epilog's manual says to use 500 freq. I wonder if that should be raised? Any thoughts out there?

:) dee

[Dan Hintz]

Maybe... wood isn't exactly a high-resolution material, but a higher res image may give you a better 3D effect due to more burning of the edges.