Are we professional craftsmen dinosaurs?

[Larry Edgerton]

In response to a discussion in a sports car forum I frequent on the merits of IKEA cabinets I posted this......


Originally Posted by me
There is a whole other option that you are not considering that is economically the most bang for your buck, and often will get you the best cabinets for the dollar. You will notice that I did say the "Best". If you want the most quantity for your dollar one of the box stores or Ikea will still be your best bet, and if you don't know the difference it really doesn't matter.

But.....

There are a lot of real cabinet makers out there in the old tradition that know how to design and build a kitchen that works, not just today but as long as the house is standing. They take a little effort to find as they can not afford to advertise, do not have splashy showrooms, may not even have a computor program that shows three D views, no 800 number, you know, all of the things you have been trained to look for. Consider the trained computor cabinet "expert" at the local box store. As a direct value to your cabinets what do they add? Cost. That is all they bring to the table that a real cabinetmaker does not supply. So you are paying for advertising and a sales commission and still have no added value. So to be competitive they cut corners, using junk that is designed to impress in the showroom and last as long as it takes to be out of warranty.

Instead a craftsman spends a lifetime learning the trade, and instead of spending 33%, the average percent of product cost spent on promotion, they buy more tools so that they can do a better job. What a concept! You actually shake the hand of the guy that makes your cabinets! A guy or girl that actually knows that a plane is not always at an airport, can install what he builds, lives in the area so he cares about his/her reputation, helps out with the local Little League, pays local taxes, and if you have a problem can just jump in the truck and stop over! That would be an awesome marketing concept!

I , in case you have not guessed, am one of those frusterated craftsmen who can not compete with the glitter, but constantly see overpriced crap that is so far from heirloom quality that it is laughable. I often see kitchens that cost 33% more than what I could build them for, but mine would be real wood with superior craftsmanship. Actually not superior craftsmanship, craftsmanship period. There is no craftsmanship involved at all in any of the box store crap. But hey, if its good enough for you who an I to argue? Homes have become just a series of trinkets checked off of a list, a competition to see who can have the most boxes checked, and so we have thousands of square miles of suburban sprawl with ugly houses with no particular style, just boxes with all the options. I think we have created the new urban blight. Through advertising we have a need to have more, not better.

Whatever........




This was one of the responses, and what amazed me there was no argument. The fellow that posted this is a dentist, so he is not poor, and he lives in an expensive area, so the attitude amazes me. Further that most if not all agreed with his position makes me see why so many of us that are professionals are struggling of late.



This is his reply......

IKEA kitchens come with a 25 year warranty. The local master craftsman will be dead in 20 years when your doors start falling off, drawer slides fail, and you can't fit in the next generation of appliances. None of the facings I have used from IKEA had melamine. Instead, they had thick wood veneer, or solid oak.
IKEA Kitchens are not so much a matter of 'craftmanship,' but engineering. The craftsman-built kitchens are solid and have longeivity, but are really like building an airplane out of spruce and fabric. We've long left those days behind. The engineering in IKEA drawer units make a mockery of the old wooden drawer slides of yore. I'm not saying there isn't a place for that kind of simple old-fashioned work in a pure period home or reproduction, just as an old Ferrari should always have carburetors and an old Jaguar should have wire wheels. I mean, how many of us can justify 250K for a custom built car, when a factory built one is more reliable and econommical? But to be real, it is time to embrace a new generation of technology that cuts out the unnecessary waste of hand built custom cabinetry for 90% of surburban homes. It's a case of overbuilt skilled trade work versus professional engineering. IKEA also has an excellent team working on aesthetic design that makes a mockery of other big box kitchens, which gives them a left up in my book - but may not be to your taste. Some of the folks mocking IKEA kitchens on here would be hard-pressed to discern that the kitchen was made by IKEA (without looking at the logos on the hardware).


I had no response.......




This illustrates what we are up against, the millions of advertising dollars that we have to compete against are succeding. I know that we are not comparable, and I know we have all of the same hardware and accesories, but I also know I can not afford to advertise at this time at all, and when time were good I don't need to. I did when I started out on my own, and all it brought me were tire kickers looking for hand crafted at a Home Depot price.

How do we fight this perception? The forum in question is populated by many professionals that make a lot more money than I, and yet it was almost universally agreed that Ikea and box stores provide a product that is all one needs.

[Cody Colston]

Maybe not be dinosaurs yet but definitely on the endangered species list. ;)

[Wilbur Pan]

I don't think that you're going to win the longevity argument If Ikea is going to warranty their cabinets for 25 years, then they will last that long. And yes, they do use real wood veneers.

But here's where your friend's argument begins to break down. With Ikea, there's no ability to custom fit cabinets. Most of their cabinet lines are 30" or 36" wide modules. If you have a wall 80" long, you're stuck with dead (read: wasted) space. You are also locked into a single counter height, which is not ideal if you are on the taller or shorter end of the scale.

Although the Ikea veneers are made of real wood, a craftsman made cabinet will look better, as the seams between the veneers on an Ikea cabinet won't be as tight. Alternatively, the craftsman would use solid wood to make a cabinet door or face frame, bypassing the veneer seam issue entirely.

The joints used in a craftsman made cabinet should likewise be tighter than on an Ikea cabinet. If the Ikea cabinet is put together with their typical MDF connecting mechanism, the joint will hold, but there will be more sagging over time, which probably won't be covered by the warranty.

Grain matching and selection will be a matter of luck with an Ikea cabinet. I'm sure that colorwise, things will match, but if the veneers are laid next to each other to cover a panel, no thought will be made to make sure that the grain patterns are put together in a pleasing way.

And a craftsman has the same access to the types of drawer slides that are used in Ikea cabinets -- and better.

Now, does any of this affect the function of the cabinet? Except for the ability to custom fit the cabinets to the available space, not really. These are all aesthetic issues for the most part, and in the case of grain selection and matching, some education might have to be done. But aesthetics are important, and do have tangible and real value.

I think that what your friend is doing is approaching kitchen cabinets from an engineering standpoint, not an aesthetic one. If that's how he looks at kitchen cabinets, hammer on the custom fit issue. If you think he might respond to the aesthetics involved in furniture design, show him how cathedral grain looks terrible on a rail or stile, or how hideous a non-matched panel glue up looks. This is not hard to do. My wife has zero interest in woodworking, but I showed her these things once, and now she can't help but stare at the cabinets in our friends' kitchens, seeing how much better the doors could have been made. She hates me for that. ;)

Now whether or not that will be important to your friend is a different matter. Your friend may decide that spending the extra money to get good grain matching isn't worth it to him, which is fine. I won't ever spend $250K on a car that goes fast, even if I had the money.

One other thing. I get the feeling that this forum is also inhabited by professionals, but I would guess that the ones here would easily see where you are coming from. To hope that the professionals on a sports car forum all would see the light might be asking a bit much. After all, they are blowing their money on sports cars, not woodworking. ;)

Hope that helps.

P.S. Here's a picture of a kitchen cabinet door from the Ikea website. You can easily see the poor choices made as far as grain orientation for the rails and stiles.

[Ron Bontz]

Just a foot note for what it is worth. Those lengthy warranties are often "pro rated" To the original owner of course. A lot of upper income people will build a new house long before. But also their income is not so great they can afford truly custom built cabinets etc. They are often looking for something to impress others with their wealth or the appearance of, rather than true quality anyway. Everyone wants the most bang for their buck. It's just a question of why they want it IMHO. Take care.:)

[Mark Versprille]

Please, any one here can correct me if my use of terms is wrong. A true "Cabinet Maker" is like George Wilson (most frequently found meandering the Neander valley on SMC). His is the craftsmanship in wood everyone here aspires too. Any single piece George can make an industrial team Ikea could put together could also make. They might be able to make it better. In time and materials it might have cost $500 for George's presentation box to Elizabeth II. And it's worth it! The first box the Ikea team produced cost (lets say) $140,000 to make. But now Ikea is set up to make 200 boxes a day at a unit cost of $32.2509 (Ikea counts those extra places east of the decimal). They sell it @ $99.99 ea. and darn near anyone can have just what the Queen of England has. It took the Ikea team 6 months to get to that production point. George has moved on and built a Piano Forte nearly identical to the one Motzart used to compose 'The Magic Flute'. Ikea will never sell those.

My point is: When individuality is called for, call George. You do have to pay more to have the skills of an Ikea team in one person, though.
I, too lament the viral spread of McMansions.

[Mike Gager]

i think the person makes some valid points. not all cabinetbuilders give a darn about craftsmanship. most ive seen use melamine and particleboard to build cabinets. its all about time and money. the quicker they get the cabinets built the faster they get their money.

[Russ Boyd]

I would say your comment on "not knowing the difference" is obvious in the dentist reply. He talked about wooden drawer slides when most of us use only the best mechanical slides. Ignorance on his part I'd say. As a dentist or any other high pay occupation, my inclination to describe his desire for Ikea is to keep up with the jones' since their friends told them how great Ikea is. As far as a 25 year warranty, I very much doubt it would cover much, if anything.

[Tony Bilello]

There may be a bad assumption or two here. First off a cabinet maker by definition is one who makes cabinets. It has absolutely nothing to do with craftsmanship. Not all but most cabinet shops I have seen would be lucky to produce Home Depot quality. They are not craftsmen, they are 'cabinetmakers'. Lets not assume that because it is hand made it is good. Very bad assumption. Many good cabinetmakers will make it through the recession because their long earned reputation will carry on.
As for the general publics opinion of IKEA or a local cabinet shop....the general public does not know much about quality construction when it comes to woodworking or cabinetry. They buy what they like. We as woodworkers consider men like James Krenov, Gustav Stickley and George Nakashima to be great craftsman when in reality they are great furniture designers. If you feel like you have to compete with the BORGS and IKEA, it's time to re-evaluate your designs and pricing. You are not competing just against manufacturers of cabinets, you are competing against all of products in the world. " Do I pay more for custom cabinets or pay less and make a down payment on a new car with the extra money ?" or "Would I rather have a long Europen vacation or custom cabiinets ?" If you feel you have to educate people about quality you are wasting your time. Give them a better design and you will get the business.
This may not be the answer some of you were looking for.

[Rod Sheridan]

Larry, I think one of the viewpoints views kitchen cabinets as furniture, the other views them as trim.

Most kitchens are re-modelled on a routine basis, lets for sake of argument say on a 20 year schedule.

IKEA cabinets are extremely well engineered, and optimised. They use as little energy, materials, and generate as little environmental contaminants as economically possible.

Being a hobby woodworker, and having an FIL who's a retired cabinet maker (high end one off's), both of us agree that custom cabinets do not meet the above criteria.

Custom furniture is great, and well designed, well made furniture is often kept a lifetime. It's worth it to pay for this product.

Custom kitchen cabinets are often simply customized for fit in a particular kitchen, with a few options for drawers etc.

If a custom kitchen is remodelled in 20 years, in my opinion, it's a waste of precious resources if the cabinets were made of solid materials. I wouldn't send a Morris Chair to the dump at 20 years, yet many people send their kitchens to the dump at that age.

It's the engineer versus cabinet maker approach. The IKEA cabinet meets all the engineering requirements for strength, projected lifespan, function, resource utilitilization, environmental issues, cost etc.

The custom cabinet maker approach often doesn't meet the above criteria, however it does produce a different product, which some people consider better.

If I were a kitchen cabinetmaker, I wouldn't compete with IKEA, it's a losing proposition.

The local cabinetmaker can make one off's however, which IKEA doesn't.

Regards, Rod.

[Ryan Stagg]

I lurked around some kitchen design forums for a while before deciding on a design for the kitchen in our new house. I was astounded that many people were saving 10s of thousands of dollars by buying Ikea carcasses, and then having fronts and doors made by production houses like Scherr's. "Best of both worlds" they promised.

I was skeptical about this approach until I visited an Ikea store and poked around one of their mocked up kitchens in person - those boxes are well made! As the quote in the original post mentioned, these are engineered, not crafted. And they're done well.

Professional wood craftsman/artisans won't become dinosaurs any more than watchmakers have. We have well-engineered quartz watches that will keep time within fractions of a second to the year, yet people are still paying thousands of dollars for hand-crafted watches like Rolex, Omega, and Breitling, that are much more error-prone.

Why? Because some people will always appreciate the care that goes into hand-craftsmanship.

[Jeff Duncan]

Here's another point of view....from another cabinetmaker. I don't care what the dentist thinks, his opinion of cabinetry is about as well founded as my opinion of orthodontic processes. His reply is flawed and his understanding is flawed, and it would be a waste of time to sit here and counter it. Box stores provide a decent quality product for a decent price. Yup it's expensive when you look at what you get for your money, but that's not what the masses are looking at. When you read online forums where the majority of views seem to support buying the least expensive woodworking machinery coming from offshore, instead of better quality machines that cost a bit more, why would this be a surprise???
I'm also not in competition with Ikea or the box stores, and to be honest if your charging 33% less than the box stores I can't comprehend how your still in business. For me to build a kitchen similar in size and details to a box store would be a minimum of 20-30% more expensive. Beaded faceframes with inset doors easily double what any box store would charge if they carried them. I don't even attempt to get close to their prices and I don't try to convince box store buyers to hire me. Kinda like trying to pull someone looking at a Mustang out of a Ford showroom and get them to buy a Ferrari....not going to happen.
Nope we're not dinosuars, and we're not endangered. We serve a small percentage of the general population and will continue to do so in the future. Because there's always a need for something that's not off-the-shelf.
good luck,
JeffD

[Anthony Whitesell]

... IKEA kitchens come with a 25 year warranty. ...



That only works if the company will be in business and you haven't lost the receipt in 15, 20, or 24 years.

I bought a wonderful BBQ grill with a 5/10/25/75 year warranty (length depends on which part of the grill, ie., burner, base, etc.). The company was bought out 3 years later and belly up 4 years after that. So much for a fantastic warranty.

[Mike Henderson]

There's two parts to custom work - the design and the craftsmanship. Sam Maloof gets big money for his stuff because of the design and not because of the craftsmanship. A lot of furniture makers can make a "Maloof" chair as well as Sam but people pay for Sam's signature.

You cannot compete with factory made furniture. If the factories wanted to, and people would pay for it, they could make the furniture out of solid wood and put excellent hardware on it.

But you can make a good living working with a client (certain clients) to design something unique for them. You can also make a good living making things that fit into unique spots (certain shapes and sizes).

I get all kinds of jobs - repair of old furniture, custom jobs, modification of existing furniture and cabinets, and I don't know what else. The individual craftsman needs to be knowledgeable, flexible and innovative to survive.

If you try to beat the big guys (like Ikea) you'll lose ever time. If you try to compete on price, you'll lose every time.

Mike

[Andrew Joiner]

Ikea doesn't make cabinets or furniture. They sell boxes of parts! The quality of the final product depends on the several things.

1- The part quality,design,and size can be specked. Grain selection,exact fastener position and many other things aren't so easy.
Many times 1 screw put in a void or knot can ruin a piece,or limit it's usefull life.
2- In the cases where parts are uniform and fabricated correctly, how well does the assembler follow directions?

I could go on but here's an example.

I just assembled a "desk/work table" from Ikea for my step daughter. She had no idea the hollow core top was inadequate to hold the keyboard slide they sell for the desk. I used my experience as a cabinetmaker to ensure it will last as long as possible. As packaged and following the instructions the desk would function maybe a year at most, but I added some glued on cleats to hold the screws.

Many here are cabinetmakers. We can fabricate, assemble, sand and finish wood parts into heirlooms.
In most cases an assembler of a box of parts can't produce a final product that will hold up to normal use.

[Marty Paulus]

As far as the warranty for IKEA goes, as with all warranties, you have to read the fine print:

The limited warranties are valid from the original date of purchase of the product. In order to rely on this limited warranty, the original receipt is required as proof of purchase from the original purchaser.
The limited warranites do not apply to products that have been stored or assembled incorrectly, used inappropriately, abused, misused, altered or cleaned with wrong cleaning methods or wrong cleaning products. The limited warranites do not apply to normal wear and tear, cuts or scratches, or damage caused by impact or accidents, or in the case of PAX/KOMPLEMENT and IKEA Kitchens, where the product has been moved. The limited warranties do not apply if products have been placed outdoors or in a humid environment. The limited warranty applies to the original purchaser and where the product is used for residential use only (unless otherwise stated). Coverage terminates if the original purchaser sells or otherwise transfers the IKEA product. Whirpool, the original manufacturer of the "For IKEA from Whirpool" appliances will provide the service through it's own service operations or authorized service partner network.


Seems to me that you would be hard pressed to actually get anything out of a warranty claim for this stuff. There are enough weasel words in there to choke a lawyer. So what good is the 25 year warranty? I have a friend who sells roofs. Most shingles have long warranty. However, that only covers manufacture defects. It doesn't cover the shingles that were laid wrong and the wind blew off. Oh and by the way the warranty coverage is only for the replacement cost of the shingles not the cost to have someone climb up on the roof to replace them.

In a nut shell it is a buyer beware world with these places. Unfortunately there are also so called professionals that are anything but. Again buyer beware.

[Jeff Strickler]

Seems to me there are some bad analogies and misplaced perceptions in his statements. Buying a car and buying a kitchen involve entirely different motivations and value propositions and the expectations of their longevity are different.

The economic buyer willing to invest in any kind of custom furniture or cabinets expects them to be there in 20 years, whereas many buyers who choose a cheaper route have an expectation that they will remodel that kitchen more than once in that time frame -- just look at the trends of the last decade where people are ripping out their kitchen every 5 years!

I'm surprised that Ikea is shown the reverence above. Any marketing studies on Ikea will tend to describe them as affordable, "value-positioned" furniture -- that is, inexpensive and designed for a limited useful life. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's basically the Target or Walmart of furniture -- the choice you make when you want a basic, no-frills, affordable piece that you accept is in a different category than say, a Stickley original ;-).

I'm surprised to see his comment about 90% of suburban homes and all that... neither construction nor cabinet making are my professions (I'm in software...) but I've been under the impression that easily 90% of new home construction for the last 30+ years has been pre-fab units, not custom cabinets -- I'd have a hard time believing that all the crappy houses that barely make code I've see go up in endless sprawling developments all over the country that someone actually took the time to do a quality custom job.

At the end of the day, we're talking two or more categories of both cabinets and economic buyers here, and to try and merge them doesn't work. They both have a place depending on one's budget and desires. For kid's furniture, basic office furniture, etc. Ikea is probably great. If I were to invest in a kitchen remodel though (which I likely will do within the next 5 years) it will be the best possible cabinets I can afford because I intend for them to last 20+ years (and the Ikea ones the last guy put in this house look like garbage already!)

[Tom Leasure]

Life is like oats - some people like the oats that go into the front of the horse & some like the oats that come out the back of the horse ;);)

Tom

[Mark Roderick]

I'll add a personal experience.

My family and I were driving back from Florida to New Jersey and stopped at a local restaurant along the way for "real home cooking." What we got was food poisoning, with my older son spending a week in the hospital. We vowed that from then on, we'd eat only in recognized chains in towns we weren't familiar with and hadn't had time to explore.

Will we thereby miss out on some truly high-quality, delightful local fare? Absolutely. But we'll almost certainly also miss out on the food poisoning.

For every true craftsman, there are 20 guys with pickup trucks who will deliver true crap to the homeowner, and it's very difficult for the homeowner to know the difference. IKEA and the other big-box stores bring to the table certainty and therefore comfort.

There will always be a niche for high-end work, but the market gets smaller and smaller as the quality of the factories gets higher and higher, and it takes a long time to build a reputation.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

A few observations...

1. Longevity is not an issue to many. Folks remodel their kitchen to give it the latest look. And, style seems to change every 5-10 years these days.

2. $40K of cabinets in a $275K average price home doesn't make much sense, unless one is really into cabinets.

3. A clean installation is important regardless of whether stock or custom made cabinets are used.

4. Of all my installs, I have never seen a non-dovetail stock factory drawer fall apart.

-Jeff :)

[Larry Edgerton]

Couple of clarifications

I was frusterated at the time of the original post, and so I was not clear on "Box Store" I consider any store that does not own a saw and is selling Merilet or Krapmaid or the equivilant a "Box Store" as all they offer is a computor program and a salesman.

A large part of my business is trimming homes one step over McMansions, and so I install a lot of this junk. I am routinely seeing cabinets from these or similar particle board vendors from 50-100K. This is what frusterates me. I could build them for less, make a good living, and the customer would get a far better product but I don't have time to do the work and blow smoke up their dress. These I can compete with, and in fact I can build modest kitchens in the 10k range. But no one asks. The Boxes have done their work, and we are considered too expensive without actually asking.

The misconception about our end products I find amazing. Apparently IKEA invented some kind of metal drawer slide while I was carving out that mantle with my stone ax! Who knew?

This is bad enough but when someone tells me basically that I am inconsequential because I am going to be dead in 20 years I do get a little rattled. I must have typed 5 or so replys that I deleted as too inflamatory, and then just moved on.

My whole point though is not if we compete on price, that is immaterial.

My point is that the idea of the value of owning a quality object is disappearing, and that is the root of our problem. Its not about design, many of us here can out design some punk with a keyboard, and we don't use fillers. Its the basic premise of what quality is that is under fire, and lets face it folks, that is our bread and butter, the desire to have something of traditional value. Without that concept, I fear that we will indeed be on the endangered species list.

[Sean Hughto]

4. Of all my installs, I have never seen a non-dovetail stock factory drawer fall apart.

-Jeff :)

I had to build a few drawers for my sister in law when we were visiting after the ones in her less than ten year old McMansion fell apart. heaven forbid you put anything heavy in a draw made out of pressed sawdust "boards" (HDF, MDF, Melamine, I dunno the technical name for the crap as I've never used or bought any) that are glued and pin nailed together. Made some lock rabbet poplar drawer boxes and was able to attach the faces from the low-end garbage the builder chose cause it saved money and he'd be long gone by the time they inevitably fell apart.

[Mike Henderson]

My point is that the idea of the value of owning a quality object is disappearing, and that is the root of our problem.
I disagree with that concept. Many people enjoy owning a "quality" object in all areas (cars, tools, watches, jewelry, perfume, etc.). Of course, that gets us into the discussion of what "quality" is, but let's put that aside for a moment.

But people have to recognize "quality" before they can prefer it, and for kitchen cabinets, there's no one who's out there telling people what to look for. In other words, "better" cabinets have to be marketed, which means educating the buyer.

Mike

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Back in the 1940s, 50s and early 60s, most kitchen cabinets were built on-site by a carpenter using plywood, nails and screws. The advent of stock factory made cabinets was a good thing.

Also, years ago, kitchens were considered as utilitarian. Today, kitchens are in high regard as a meeting place for the family and a focal point of a house. However, I think some folks go too far by turning their cabinets into fine furniture.

Whatever floats yer boat,

-Jeff :)

[John Coloccia]

re: nobody asking

I mean this with no disrespect intended at all. It's just an observation. Why would anyone think to ask you for cheap, custom cabinets? That's totally counterintuitive. *I* wouldn't think to call a cabinet maker if I was looking for anything but ridiculously priced cabinets. If you advertised in the phone book:

"Larry's Cabinets And Things builds and installs custom kitchen cabinets. Our cabinets are built out of solid wood (not particle board) and the craftmanship is of the highest quality...and we do it all for LESS than you would spend for the cheaply made, mass produced cabinets that most choose to install."

...then you'd get calls for custom cabinets, I would imagine. You can't blame people for not knowing what you do. I have to think that if you can really do custom cabinetry for less that buying IKEA cabinets, that should be your main selling point. Or possibly you should mention it to them when they hire you to install their IKEA kitchen. I can't imagine that wouldn't bring in more business than you could handle.

[Brian Smith3]

OK maybe I'm in a conversation that I'll regret, but as an economist, there is an answer to this question. The answer of wether or not Ikea is good for craftsmen is it depends on what kind of craftsman you are.
What "outsourcing" really does to the craftsman is force him/her to increase their quality in order to maintain their pricing. So sure, for the least skilled craftsman, it's not good.
The guy that used to come into a kitchen and throw in some cabinets for a minimal fee is not going to keep his job. He is going to be replaced by a guy that can install 3 kitchens a day with prefabbed materials. But honestly I don't think that the average kitchens and baths of the 50's, 60's, and 70's were necessarily anything to write home about. So it depends on what you as a craftsman want, and what you are willing to do to increase your skill set.
One last thing. The idea that people don't want or like quality is just nonsense. I think everyone would like to have Nanz hardware on all their doors, but how many people can afford $1000 per door for hardware? So what do you want people to do? Have two doors with hardware and the rest of your door jams with string and some cloth?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Recently I equipped a kitchen with a set of upper line Wood Mode Cherry Cabinets. They were well made for the most part. The factory guys put the 32mm holes in the back panel of a double wide cabinet in the wrong place forcing me to either send it back and wait or fix it myself.

[Tony Bilello]

Not as many cabinet shops as you would think have a section with nice display models of the builders work. A place in the open (showroom) where a prospective buyer could stand back and take a good look and kick the tires. Why not, the BORG's do it? I'll tell you why not. It's because even a small showroom for custum cabinets can be as much as 900 sq. ft.
Warehouse space in the hood or barrio goes for at least 55 cents per sq. ft. per month and that don't include the cost of a handgun and bullets. Outside of the hood or barrio can cost as much as $3 per sq. ft. per month.
Retail space can cost anywhere from $10 to $30 / sq. foot per month. You do the math.
Most large cabinet shops are in the hood. Most customers actually dont mind driving to the hood during the daylight hours. Maybe advertising in the newspaper would help. It worked for me when I had my big shop. If you are as good as you think you are, business will build fast based on word of mouth and you can slowly cut the advertising and eventually recover the showroom space. If your stuff looks like the typical plain cabinets with the typical raised panels, you will go by way of the dinisaur.
Dare to be different. Look at Architectural Digest and see if your cabinets and furniture are up to par with the homes and offices displayed there. Then decide.

[Adam Wissman]

both ikea and craftsmen can build great cabinets to any customer. don't worry though i hate ikea. but when you buy pre made cabinets you do not have as much pride in them. my father and i built our kitchen cabinets ourselves and when people tell us our kitchen looks good, we can one up them and say they are handmade by (company, or individuals name). made by us in this case, but you get the point.

on the "25 year warrenty" how many of you recall the movie Tommy Boy, when he says quote " Tommy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000394/): Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.
Ted Nelson, Customer (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288929/): Go on, I'm listening.
Tommy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000394/): Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted Nelson, Customer (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288929/): Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000394/): 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted?
[chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing too]
Ted Nelson, Customer (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288929/): [impatiently] What's your point?
Tommy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000394/): The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.
Ted Nelson, Customer (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0288929/): But why do they put a guarantee on the box?
Tommy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000394/): Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of (junk). That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me."

Same exact thing about the warranty. in the warranties today there are so many loop holes they might as well not even offer one, but it makes you and this dentist feel very good and comfortable about his purchase, until something breaks 5 years down the road and he can't do any thing about it since it is quote "wear and tear". now he is a angry, cursing customer saying to himself, why couldn't have i bought from (name here), where he stands behind everything he builds instead of an eastern man halfway across the world who works in a sweatshop,just cares about the .25 cents an hour he makes, and doesn't care if the thing breaks or is covered in lead beacause no one will come crying to him.


IKEA kitchens come with a 25 year warranty. The local master craftsman will be dead in 20 years when your doors start falling off, drawer slides fail, and you can't fit in the next generation of appliances. None of the facings I have used from IKEA had melamine. Instead, they had thick wood veneer, or solid oak.
IKEA Kitchens are not so much a matter of 'craftmanship,' but engineering. The craftsman-built kitchens are solid and have longeivity, but are really like building an airplane out of spruce and fabric. We've long left those days behind. The engineering in IKEA drawer units make a mockery of the old wooden drawer slides of yore. I'm not saying there isn't a place for that kind of simple old-fashioned work in a pure period home or reproduction, just as an old Ferrari should always have carburetors and an old Jaguar should have wire wheels. I mean, how many of us can justify 250K for a custom built car, when a factory built one is more reliable and econommical? But to be real, it is time to embrace a new generation of technology that cuts out the unnecessary waste of hand built custom cabinetry for 90% of surburban homes. It's a case of overbuilt skilled trade work versus professional engineering. IKEA also has an excellent team working on aesthetic design that makes a mockery of other big box kitchens, which gives them a left up in my book - but may not be to your taste. Some of the folks mocking IKEA kitchens on here would be hard-pressed to discern that the kitchen was made by IKEA (without looking at the logos on the hardware).i take that as an insult as a woodworker when someone says that the craftsmen is going to be dead in 20 years. i know most of you are older and that would get me heated. in twenty years i won't even be 40 so he can stop being stereotypical. on the thick wood veener honestly i can't see how this is quality when there is under that the "infamous" imported particle board, i also guarantee that he has no idea what solid oak really is, sure the drawer fronts are i assume but on the sides he thinks it solid when its really cheap plywood from china, or a laminate that is made to look like oak.


the new generation of technology that cuts out the waste of hand built furniture. and he wonders why USA companies are laying off workers. take an example around my area. Chrysler is shutting down the Fenton plant and many other plants, but not one in Mexico, you know why, beacause that is the new generation of technology. i would love to buy something that is overbuilt than something that is just what i need for now (also after the 90 day return policy) anything that is MADE IN USA, is enough to justify that extra cost, not to mention its made Locally!

ahh.. now i feel a little better after blowing off some steam:)

[Mike Cutler]

Larry

The 25 year warranty is a sales gimmick. IKEA, or any other store like that, is strictly basing that number on statistics. How many people, that originally had the cabinets installed, will actually be living in the same home 25 years later to make a warranty claim? Even if the warranty is transferable, how many people will actually take the time to transfer the warranty into their name at the time of the sale of the home? How many owners will a "typical house" go through in 25 years. Heck, the cabinets put into my house in 1980 are junk. They were junk the day they were put in, and they are still junk. They're still square, the doors open and close, and the dishes haven't fallen out, but they are strictly junk.
It's a nonsense numbers games.
In New England it is possible to see cabinets that were made 150-200+ years ago still in daily use. They may be simple in design and construction but they are still straight and true. A 25 year warranty is nothing.

[Andrew Joiner]

Larry I have an suggestion,

You might need to do some basic sales work. You have successfully made your point here, now you need to tell your customers. Your message is " We can beat the Box stores on price AND quality" that could be your slogan. I think your customers would happy to hire you when they hear your massage.

Blowing smoke up dresses is part of the work to get the job. I found that sales can be a fun part of owning a cabinet shop.





I am routinely seeing cabinets from these or similar particle board vendors from 50-100K. This is what frusterates me. I could build them for less, make a good living, and the customer would get a far better product but I don't have time to do the work and blow smoke up their dress.



.

[jack duren]

Careful on the cabinetmaker-craftsman comments. Some of us are one or the other or both. Making a living as a cabinetmaker since 1983.

[Peter Quinn]

I have no answers for you Larry. Strange times we live in. How to sell your work to a public more willing to buy anonymous decorish junk built in foreign factories? I'd guess its best to work through architects, custom builders, design builders. People who can identify clients with a demand for real quality and steer them toward your work. Its hard to reach the consumer directly as a cabinet maker because they don't know how to judge your work and won't be installing it. People going to the Borg are often half backwards GC'ing their own kitchen remudle and are unlikely to buy into a price point a small shop can beat. And people looking to churn some equity out of their house on the way up to something bigger are rarely willing to spend one nickel more than is necessary to make a sale. Have you gone down and looked at some of that stuff at the Borg? 5/8" particle board sides, plastic corner blocks, 1/4" backs, thermofoil doors. Its crap, and I mean that, sorry to any that own it, but its also cheap, and frankly its what many people can afford and may be better than what they had.

The shop I work in makes fine custom cabinetry for very rich people, designed by professional designers (not in house typically) and architects, built to high standards, specing the best hardware. Occasionally we even make a "wooden slide" for a desk or something which when well made will out last any mechanical POS I have seen on any IKEA POS I have seen. This guy is probably comparing the junk he owned in college to your custom work, figures its the same thing. Do you want to argue with the insane, the ignorant, or the stupid? I don't. But most people, even your average dentist, can't afford or at least won't make the hard choice to buy the kind of things made where I work. Shame is a lot of small local shops make very good quality work of a more standard build and price, and right now they are hurting. So are we.

I have owned several cabinets and pieces of furniture from IKEA when I lived in NYC. Its junk. That is my honest unbiased professional opinion. Engineered to be the best cheap Scandinavian looking particle board crap you can afford to throw away every 5 years. 25 year warranty? Who are they kidding? Did you read that warranty? I use to be a professional chef, I USE my kitchen hard, and I have a 2 year old. Combine these facts, I give that IKEA stuff 2 years before it starts to come apart in my house. Heck, its starting to come apart in the show room at the one near me. You want a car analogy? I don't want to ride to work in an old Ferrari, but I don't want to drive a Yugo either, even with a fancy paint job. And unlike an old Ferrari, good old cabinetry can be easily tuned and continue to perform daily for years assuming the owners are not fickle and the style is classic.

[David DeCristoforo]

Ikea will be there forever. Right. Has anyone looked around lately? Seen any big companies having issues? My shop was there before Ikea existed and could easily still be there after they have gone bankrupt or been "absorbed" by another company.

Tried calling their support number? Oh, what's that? An automated labyrinthian voice mail void? What a surprise! Try calling my shop. Guess who answers the phone?

Engineering? How is that worth a crap? Engineering, technology and automation have allowed manufacturers like Ikea to build cabinets and "furniture" out of the flimsiest, lowest quality, ersatz materials imaginable. I have a hard time believing that a human being with even the smallest amount of conscience can have the temerity to look another human being in the eye and tell them with a straight face that that stuff is "quality".

Please... give me a break.

[William Powell]

This thread has lead to many people making insulting and inflammatory comments about the products produced by, distributed by and sold by other workers. Many of these workers are our neighbors.

Who is it you are angry with?

Is there one of you that doesn't shop on price for ANYTHING? You ALWAYS buy local? You ALWAYS buy USA? You pay thirty cents more per gallon for gas because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO? You NEVER buy JUST GOOD ENOUGH? If so, you have more disposable income than I do and, in addition, are a fool. (yes, inflammatory)

Do you know there are people in our own country who are very pleased with having ANYTHING NEW to simply hold a TV in place? Is it quality? No. But it's new and they are proud that they finally reached the point where they saved enough money to acquire it. And, hey, it cost fifty dollars. What would you charge to make your custom TV stand for them? I can't even go talk to them for fifty dollars, much less make anything.

Throughout time there has been a place for those things that last and those that don't. I really don't see the need nor the reason to get upset about it nor to cast insults on those that fill a need in our society.

Bill

[Greg Cuetara]

IMHO the answer is very easy. We live in a disposable society. MOST people want new things very frequently. Think about it. Most people want a new car every 2 to 3 years. I have had one of my cars for 10 years and it is starting to die on me but it is still good as a beater vehicle for my plow. With that being said, I think MOST on this forum are not that way. Although people still go to harbor freight and buy a disposable drill or other tool that they may not need frequently. It works for the few times they need it and move on. With most people though they care about the outward look and that everything works. They don't care that your drawers are dovetailed or that the grain matches from piece to piece.

With Kitchen Cabinets people want functional and a new look every so often. It is easier to replace them than to keep the same 'look' for 40 years. I am looking at trying to sell my house and my most hated word right now is, your kitchen and bathrooms are 'outdated'. The cabinets are crap and I wish they were built by a craftsman but even if they were they probably would still be 'outdated'.

One question I have, which is rhetorical, is that in 20 years you go back into IKEA with problems with your cabinets...what do they say...they probably laugh at you. In 20 years when you walk into the cabinet shop that built your custom cabinets and talk to the guy who built them I bet he will go back out to the house and see what the problem is and if he can fix it.

Maybe I am wrong but I think craftsman take pride in their work. That is the big difference in my opinion.

Greg


People don't want quality...people want cheap. Quality is not cheap. Someone's line around here is correct...pay once and cry or pay multiple times or something like that.

[Neal Clayton]

In response to a discussion in a sports car forum I frequent on the merits of IKEA cabinets I posted this......


Originally Posted by me
There is a whole other option that you are not considering that is economically the most bang for your buck, and often will get you the best cabinets for the dollar. You will notice that I did say the "Best". If you want the most quantity for your dollar one of the box stores or Ikea will still be your best bet, and if you don't know the difference it really doesn't matter.

But.....

There are a lot of real cabinet makers out there in the old tradition that know how to design and build a kitchen that works, not just today but as long as the house is standing. They take a little effort to find as they can not afford to advertise, do not have splashy showrooms, may not even have a computor program that shows three D views, no 800 number, you know, all of the things you have been trained to look for. Consider the trained computor cabinet "expert" at the local box store. As a direct value to your cabinets what do they add? Cost. That is all they bring to the table that a real cabinetmaker does not supply. So you are paying for advertising and a sales commission and still have no added value. So to be competitive they cut corners, using junk that is designed to impress in the showroom and last as long as it takes to be out of warranty.

Instead a craftsman spends a lifetime learning the trade, and instead of spending 33%, the average percent of product cost spent on promotion, they buy more tools so that they can do a better job. What a concept! You actually shake the hand of the guy that makes your cabinets! A guy or girl that actually knows that a plane is not always at an airport, can install what he builds, lives in the area so he cares about his/her reputation, helps out with the local Little League, pays local taxes, and if you have a problem can just jump in the truck and stop over! That would be an awesome marketing concept!

I , in case you have not guessed, am one of those frusterated craftsmen who can not compete with the glitter, but constantly see overpriced crap that is so far from heirloom quality that it is laughable. I often see kitchens that cost 33% more than what I could build them for, but mine would be real wood with superior craftsmanship. Actually not superior craftsmanship, craftsmanship period. There is no craftsmanship involved at all in any of the box store crap. But hey, if its good enough for you who an I to argue? Homes have become just a series of trinkets checked off of a list, a competition to see who can have the most boxes checked, and so we have thousands of square miles of suburban sprawl with ugly houses with no particular style, just boxes with all the options. I think we have created the new urban blight. Through advertising we have a need to have more, not better.

Whatever........




This was one of the responses, and what amazed me there was no argument. The fellow that posted this is a dentist, so he is not poor, and he lives in an expensive area, so the attitude amazes me. Further that most if not all agreed with his position makes me see why so many of us that are professionals are struggling of late.



This is his reply......

IKEA kitchens come with a 25 year warranty. The local master craftsman will be dead in 20 years when your doors start falling off, drawer slides fail, and you can't fit in the next generation of appliances. None of the facings I have used from IKEA had melamine. Instead, they had thick wood veneer, or solid oak.
IKEA Kitchens are not so much a matter of 'craftmanship,' but engineering. The craftsman-built kitchens are solid and have longeivity, but are really like building an airplane out of spruce and fabric. We've long left those days behind. The engineering in IKEA drawer units make a mockery of the old wooden drawer slides of yore. I'm not saying there isn't a place for that kind of simple old-fashioned work in a pure period home or reproduction, just as an old Ferrari should always have carburetors and an old Jaguar should have wire wheels. I mean, how many of us can justify 250K for a custom built car, when a factory built one is more reliable and econommical? But to be real, it is time to embrace a new generation of technology that cuts out the unnecessary waste of hand built custom cabinetry for 90% of surburban homes. It's a case of overbuilt skilled trade work versus professional engineering. IKEA also has an excellent team working on aesthetic design that makes a mockery of other big box kitchens, which gives them a left up in my book - but may not be to your taste. Some of the folks mocking IKEA kitchens on here would be hard-pressed to discern that the kitchen was made by IKEA (without looking at the logos on the hardware).


I had no response.......




This illustrates what we are up against, the millions of advertising dollars that we have to compete against are succeding. I know that we are not comparable, and I know we have all of the same hardware and accesories, but I also know I can not afford to advertise at this time at all, and when time were good I don't need to. I did when I started out on my own, and all it brought me were tire kickers looking for hand crafted at a Home Depot price.

How do we fight this perception? The forum in question is populated by many professionals that make a lot more money than I, and yet it was almost universally agreed that Ikea and box stores provide a product that is all one needs.

you should have explained to him the definition of engineering, since he obviously doesn't know what it is...

the science of building something with the least material expenditure to meet a bare minimum specification

i find that the people who can't afford the custom work need to justify their purchases to themselves, hence their willingness to buy into marketing speeches.

and the one thing you forget, in your price comparison...

the difference in your custom work and ikea's off the shelf work is their price comes with some sort of 6 month interest free promotion or some such. if our economy of late teaches anything, it's that alot of that suburban blight will never be paid for, because the people who bought them can't ever hope to repay the loans. i suspect you don't have any commercials offering interest free loans to pay for your work.

[Mike Henderson]

you should have explained to him the definition of engineering, since he obviously doesn't know what it is...

the science of building something with the least material expenditure to meet a bare minimum specification
But that's good, not bad. Putting excess material into a project is just a waste. Exceeding the specifications is also a waste.

We assume that the people who established the specifications know what is required for the job at hand.

For example, in building a bridge, the specifications will take into account the maximum weight the bridge will have to support, and a safety factor will be added to account for some overloading and for age deterioration. The engineer's challenge is to design a bridge that meets those specifications, is easy to build and uses the minimum amount of material so that the cost of the bridge is minimized. Anything extra put into the bridge is just a waste.

Mike

[Chip Lindley]

Who sez IKEA will be around in 25 years, or 10 years, or 5 years???

If anything will go wrong with a *new* kitchen, it is within a year or 2! Usually things that go wrong are hardware-related. After all, the customer *signed off* on all drawings and specification of materials, and signed a contract! That agreement, which is honored by the cabinet maker, protects the cabinet maker also.

I have found my *warranty-work* to be mostly minor adjustments, and usually from some form of *customer abuse*! But, to keep a good name in the cabinet business, I cheerfully adjust, glue, even spray new lacquer! Causes such as a stove fire, angry door-slamming teenagers, and pet scratches constitute my call-backs. Oh, and there were those 3 drawers I adjusted after a very hefty 4-year-old used them as a step stool to reach the Twinkies!

FYI Mr. Dentist, nobody uses wooden drawer slides in kitchens these days (unless the client specifies!) But, some clients DO pay for authentic period cabinetry. You must have consulted a very *Neanderthal* cabinet maker!

IKEA may give you some *bang for the buck* but just try to cash in on that warranty! You are dealing with CHINA after all! I can be *on-site* in half a day to either adjust or survey a larger problem. Please let us know how long it takes to receive satisfaction from IKEA!

Those Chinese want ALL our hard-earned Bucks! Give them YOURS at your own RISK! Many imported Chinese goods are *suspect* in one way or another! Who knows what is in that GLUE or FINISH or under the VENEER!

[Neal Clayton]

But that's good, not bad. Putting excess material into a project is just a waste. Exceeding the specifications is also a waste.

We assume that the people who established the specifications know what is required for the job at hand.

For example, in building a bridge, the specifications will take into account the maximum weight the bridge will have to support, and a safety factor will be added to account for some overloading and for age deterioration. The engineer's challenge is to design a bridge that meets those specifications, is easy to build and uses the minimum amount of material so that the cost of the bridge is minimized. Anything extra put into the bridge is just a waste.

Mike

if that were desirable, we'd all build everything out of poplar, assemble it with pocket screws and staples, and paint it white, just like they did in suburban house # 2309832098.

you know how when a kid goes to college for his undergrad degree he either gets a bachelor of arts or a bachelor of science? the engineering student's degree says science on it, the architecture student's degree says arts on it.

there's a reason for the distinction. that difference is what we're talking about. the engineer's clever use of cheaper materials does not make the product in any way better than the artist's design of a similar but superior product.

[Rick Fisher]

If you buy supplies at a Home Depot or Lowes.. or you use Grizzly or any other Taiwanese woodworking machinery.. you should have zero problem understanding why consumers buy based on price more than quality.

A 35 year old Canadian Made General Jointer will still sell used for far more money than a new Grizz..

You can still buy that jointer new.. how many of us have one? Or a Northfield? ..

The principle is the same. Look around your shop .. it the same principle.. exactly.

[Neal Clayton]

If you buy supplies at a Home Depot or Lowes.. or you use Grizzly or any other Taiwanese woodworking machinery.. you should have zero problem understanding why consumers buy based on price more than quality.

A 35 year old Canadian Made General Jointer will still sell used for far more money than a new Grizz..

You can still buy that jointer new.. how many of us have one? Or a Northfield? ..

The principle is the same. Look around your shop .. it the same principle.. exactly.

it's really not.

a tool has no aesthetic value.

[Wilbur Pan]

IKEA may give you some *bang for the buck* but just try to cash in on that warranty! You are dealing with CHINA after all!

Um, Ikea is a Swedish company, and the majority of their production outsourcing goes to Eastern European countries. They also have a manufacturing plant in Virginia.


Those Chinese want ALL our hard-earned Bucks! Give them YOURS at your own RISK! Many imported Chinese goods are *suspect* in one way or another! Who knows what is in that GLUE or FINISH or under the VENEER!

Calm down. I do agree with your other points, but this discussion is about quality vs. cost, and can be had without bringing in nationalistic/ethnic issues, which really don't apply here.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have no answers for you Larry. Strange times we live in. .

Peter, these are indeed strange times. I suppose the source of my frusteration is that I "did" spend many years developing a good customer base. I developed a client base around one of my first customers, Roger Smith, of the "Roger and Me" fame, and ironically did work for Micheal Moore as well. 72% of my clients were/are directly automotive related, and most of those are GM and Chrysler management. So all of a sudden in the past couple of years my source of income dried up. No wealthy people in my area are spending money, even if they are not in automotive. Over the years normal middle class people, because of the customers I work with and the projects I did feel that they can not afford me, and normal middle class people here are not spending much anyway as the fear is contagious. So I went from a gross of over two million in 2001, to a gross of just 115K last year. I am getting by on 8% of what I used to do!

I don't think moving is the answer, as we have seen boom areas dry up overnight, such as Vegas. Two years ago it was the hottest spot in the nation, today it is the highest reposession rate in the country. More importantly the good will that I have developed over the course of twenty odd years in business does not follow you, and I do not want to start over in that respect. This area will come back, all of the hacks are disappearing, and I will have slashed my overhead to almost nothing in the meantime, so I will be just fine.

I am not the only contractor/woodworker in this area that is affected, they all are. The county I live in has the countrys highest unemployment, and where my shop is is third. Oh, and number two is next to us as well. This is a once vital and beautiful vacation destination that just went flat. Contrary to what some have posted my business was successful, and will be again, as the area I live in is beautiful. If I was the only one suffering I would agree that I am an idiot, but I am actually doing better than most. Every day there are new closures, "trickle down poverty" I like to call it. I do not feel that we have hit bottom yet either.

I have stayed out of debt for the most part, and am doing better than most, but I did just sell my commercial building yesterday in favor of moving my shop to a forclosure I bought in the country as a way to cut costs, something we are all having to do. Many parts of the country have no idea how bad Michigan's economy is as their economys are not so affected. We are in our fourth year of negative growth, and lots of good people are losing their homes. My market, upper end vacation homes, has just disappeared. I talked to owner of the title company when I closed on my shop yesterday [sad day] and he told me that typically on the two large intercostal lakes I do business on, where there would normally be less than ten properties for sale total, there are over 400 at this time, and many of them discounted. So why would they build in a buyers market?

Hopefully when things settle out these new owners will want to make some changes, but now we are just holding on.

So in summary..... I'm not dead yet, but the patient is looking a little pale.


David, some day I want to fly to California and have a cup of coffee with you. I love the way your mind works. Wisdom with just a hint of smarta**!

[Tony Bilello]

If you buy supplies at a Home Depot or Lowes.. or you use Grizzly or any other Taiwanese woodworking machinery.. you should have zero problem understanding why consumers buy based on price more than quality.

A 35 year old Canadian Made General Jointer will still sell used for far more money than a new Grizz..

You can still buy that jointer new.. how many of us have one? Or a Northfield? ..

The principle is the same. Look around your shop .. it the same principle.. exactly.

Very inflamatory, but right on the money, so to speak.

[Ryan Stagg]

The funny thing is, I would guess that there is more bespoke work being done right now than at any other point in history. Surely there have been more painstakingly reproduced Goddard-Townsend secretaries made in the past 20 years than were ever originally made. There is so much disposable income being spent from the upper-middle-class on up, it's incredible.

Those buying mass-produced, KD furniture are from the crowd that would have, I suspect, *never* been able to afford custom-made furniture.

The industrial revolution has made it possible for the middle-class to enjoy a lifestyle that would have been previously impossible.

And as an engineer, I take insult to some of the negativity towards my profession. All of your beloved shop machines were designed by engineers, and architects would be in a poor place without us. Thanks to "clever" engineers, "Fallingwater" still stands today, *despite* FLW's ego and ignorance.

[Neal Clayton]

The funny thing is, I would guess that there is more bespoke work being done right now than at any other point in history. Surely there have been more painstakingly reproduced Goddard-Townsend secretaries made in the past 20 years than were ever originally made. There is so much disposable income being spent from the upper-middle-class on up, it's incredible.

Those buying mass-produced, KD furniture are from the crowd that would have, I suspect, *never* been able to afford custom-made furniture.

The industrial revolution has made it possible for the middle-class to enjoy a lifestyle that would have been previously impossible.

And as an engineer, I take insult to some of the negativity towards my profession. All of your beloved shop machines were designed by engineers, and architects would be in a poor place without us. Thanks to "clever" engineers, "Fallingwater" still stands today, *despite* FLW's ego and ignorance.

yes, exactly. it's apples and oranges. how is that insulting? they are two different functions. that was my point, the person mentioned by the original poster who claims that something which meets its engineering specification without aesthetic value is somehow superior to another similar thing with aesthetic value is a stupid argument.

it's like someone paying millions for an original renaissance painting, and another person buying the print for 10 bucks and saying "look, mine is better than theirs, the ink isn't faded!"

[Brad Shipton]

What an interesting discussion. I find the reference to engineering and cabinetry quite odd. Engineering suggests calculations or testing. I doubt anyone from Ikea can tell me the load rating for their cabinet or their competition's. How many engineers do you think they have on staff compared to marketing, computer techs or lawyers? That sounds like plain old marketing at its best.

Now I am not an Ikea fan at all, but you do have to give them credit for their marketing. I think many of us can learn a thing or two about selling by looking at their business plan. Obviously they are on a much larger scale so they can negotiate with their suppliers to give them what they need/want as well as use much more efficient machinery, but if you look at their product lines, displays and catalogs you can see how they make it easy for the lesser informed to get that "instant" kitchen they want without answering a ton of questions or getting bogged down with details that they dont particularily care about. Obviously there are some that need more information, but many do not. Many industries are re-inventing themselves now, so maybe woodworking needs a few tweaks too. The percentage of people with disposable incomes is dwindling and we cannot all build high end custom furniture or cabinetry.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Brad

[Ryan Stagg]

What an interesting discussion. I find the reference to engineering and cabinetry quite odd. Engineering suggests calculations or testing. I doubt anyone from Ikea can tell me the load rating for their cabinet or their competition's. How many engineers do you think they have on staff compared to marketing, computer techs or lawyers? That sounds like plain old marketing at its best.


Anything that is mass-produced today is developed, at least in part, by engineers.

I do not work with Ikea, but if they are like the dozens of other consumer-goods manufacturers I've worked with, they employ industrial designers that come up with a design concept, followed by mechanical engineers who design the actual products given certain constraints (price vs. expected lifespan, as someone else noted, and the design intent of the designer), and then manufacturing engineers who determine the best way to fabricate components. More complex assemblies might employ engineering analysts to do FE studies.

I would absolutely guarantee that there are people at Ikea that can tell you the load rating for a drawer or coffee table. It is trivial to make one Ikea-quality box. It is non-trivial to make a warehouse full. When you make 1,000,000 of something with a guarantee, you don't want to get 900,000 back. :eek:

[Ryan Stagg]

how is that insulting?

I was referring more to David's reference to engineering 'how is it worth a crap' wrt Ikea.

I would say for the millions of people that cannot afford $300+ piece for a dining room chair, a lot.

[george wilson]

Neal,I think some tools do have a lot of aesthetic value. Certainly older tools and some custom made tools today. There are people paying over $4000.00 for a plane,and it isn't just because they might work better. I am among those makers.

This discussion has started a lot of bonfires,hasn't it? I've tried to compose a reply,but haven't figured out what to say.As for myself,I've been lucky to make being a craftsman a career,and I know quite a few who have also done it. The key is being able to locate a customer base with both the taste and wealth to appreciate fine work. I know a miniature maker who gets incredible amounts of money for his work, He does not advertise since he has developed enough customers,museums,etc.,to keep him busy. It can be done,but not by everyone in the World.

In old times,when machines were not available,and everything had to be done more or less by hand,it was about the same as today. Certain craftsmen out of the thousands making things were able to elevate their work to be able to sell it to those who could afford exceptional work. Art or not,it does boil down to money if you are doing it for a living.

The Queen's box,for example,took about 2 weeks to make,including the brass fittings.No,Ikea would not be able to truly duplicate it at any price. I had a sponsor to absorb the 4 figure cost. I have some nice,and some cheap furniture in my house,and some Taiwan machines among the finer machines in my shop,such as my Hardinge HLVH lathe. I either do not consider the occasional small table important enough to make it,or have a top notch cabinetmaker make it. I am not that wealthy. The Taiwan machines I have,have proven to be quite accurate,so the ones I still have have stayed,while others went,if they weren't up to snuff.

I think there is room for all kinds of things in all our homes and shops. I have valuable things as well as cheap stuff. That's just the way life is.

[Mike Henderson]

if that were desirable, we'd all build everything out of poplar, assemble it with pocket screws and staples, and paint it white, just like they did in suburban house # 2309832098.

you know how when a kid goes to college for his undergrad degree he either gets a bachelor of arts or a bachelor of science? the engineering student's degree says science on it, the architecture student's degree says arts on it.

there's a reason for the distinction. that difference is what we're talking about. the engineer's clever use of cheaper materials does not make the product in any way better than the artist's design of a similar but superior product.
You're absolutely correct and that's why I often comment about the need for new designs for a woodworker to make a living.

But once the design is done, it's up to the engineer to build it at the lowest cost and with the minimum of material. Especially if the product is very large (such as a bridge) or is going to be made in the millions (like a car or a piece of Ikea furniture).

If it's a one-off, it doesn't make that much difference.

Mike

[Paul Johnstone]

I had to build a few drawers for my sister in law when we were visiting after the ones in her less than ten year old McMansion fell apart..

In both of my last two houses, I've had drawer failure from the builder's stuff. One house after less than a year. Had to rebuild all the drawer boxes. I did reuse the fronts as you did, to keep the look the same.
My drawer boxes were made out of MDF and staples.. did not hold up long at all.

[Brad Shipton]

Ryan, I too am an engineer, but I am very leary of their claim of engineering. I appreciate the need for engineering for industrial goods, but Ikea goods that fall apart if you disassemble/re-assemble too many times does not scream engineering to me.

FE for a cabinet. Now thats something I would like to see. I'd shoot myself if I had to waste hours modelling a cabinet for a finite element analysis day in day out.

You have a lot of faith in the warranty concept. The fine print depreciates the value of the good very quickly and if you build to the AWI specs, you can stand behind that.

Anyway, kinda getting off topic.

Brad

[Sean Nagle]

IMHO the answer is very easy. We live in a disposable society...

... With Kitchen Cabinets people want functional and a new look every so often. It is easier to replace them than to keep the same 'look' for 40 years. I am looking at trying to sell my house and my most hated word right now is, your kitchen and bathrooms are 'outdated'. The cabinets are crap and I wish they were built by a craftsman but even if they were they probably would still be 'outdated'.


This is unfortunately very true. For many businesses, especially those that sell to consumers, if there isn't some planned obsolescence, their own success will eventually put them out of business, unless of course, their market can grow without limit. Even a crappy IKEA box can last too long, "fashion" becomes the needed obsolescence.

If I personally buy anything substantial, I prefer to buy top quality that will last and can be repaired and is worth repairing rather than discarded. My house is full of cherished antiques that have outlived their original owners. And I build furniture to be used not just for 1 to 5 years, but for generations. However, that's just not today's "fashion".

[Ryan Stagg]

Ryan, I too am an engineer, but I am very leary of their claim of engineering. I appreciate the need for engineering for industrial goods, but Ikea goods that fall apart if you disassemble/re-assemble too many times does not scream engineering to me.

FE for a cabinet. Now thats something I would like to see. I'd shoot myself if I had to waste hours modelling a cabinet for a finite element analysis day in day out.

You have a lot of faith in the warranty concept. The fine print depreciates the value of the good very quickly and if you build to the AWI specs, you can stand behind that.

Anyway, kinda getting off topic.

Brad

I don't have *a lot* of faith in the warranty concept, but I do know that they wouldn't offer it if they weren't sure that most of their products get from factory to store to home without falling apart. Certainly, after that, all bets are off.

And FE for cabinets is a stretch - pretty well known, simple statics problems there. But, assuming Ikea designs its myriad of injection-molded plastic products (including some furniture), they certainly do flow analysis.

[Steve Mellott]

As soon as I saw the word IKEA in the title, I knew this would be a long and interesting thread. Two comments:

1. About 10 years ago, we built a home and when it came time to selecting kitchen cabinets. our first inclination was to go to one of the big box stores. Our general contractor suggested that we use a local cabinet contractor. After meeting with the local cabinet contractor and representatives from the big box stores, we chose the local cabinet contractor. We got the custom design that we wanted, the quality was great, and he was CHEAPER than the high end cabinets in the big box store. All of our needs were met.

2. About 2 months ago, my wife decided that she wanted some cabinets for her sewing room. I prepared a design and sourced prices at the local lumber yard. On the way to the lumber yard, I happened to drive past IKEA, so I stopped to see what they might have. I was quite surprised at their extensive selection, their pricing and what I perceived to be good quality. Rather than invest the time and money in building cabinets, I purchased them at IKEA. The savings were rather significant and all of our needs were met.

I think there is room for both IKEA and the cabinet stores. In order to succeed, each has to identify its customer and then successfully market its product to that customer.

Steve

[Karl Brogger]

This topic is being way over complicated. We, in "we" I mean those in the US, are part of a consumer/disposable culture. Things do not have to last a lifetime anymore, they're out of style at the close of a decade and must be discarded.

Sort of a bi-product of this is that you get what you pay for. If you are going to be tearing that old kitchen out in 10-15 years anyway, why buy quality? For what you pay IKEA is actually a pretty good bargain, where as if you buy a kitchen from me you're paying many times more for something that basically holds the dishes. It does the same thing, but alot more time was put into it.

When I started my shop I made the decision to play at the upper end of the market rather than the lower end. Margins are bigger, getting paid is usually easier, and there is far less competition. The competition that is around takes the same approach I do, and don't bother dealing. Company "X" will do it for $XXXXXX, good for them! is a pretty typical attitude, cause' I won't. I'd rather do 3 jobs at full price, than 4 jobs at 75% price. I gross the same amount of money, but don't have to do that 4th job either.

There is a weird market of people out there who also don't care what they get, but what they pay. This actually works both ways. Some people like telling their friends they paid alot of money for something, while others say damn the quality we will get the absolute cheapest product possible. It happens to many products from cars to shoes to food.

[Peter Quinn]

Larry, just for the clarity I didn't figure I had any information you didn't already know. I have seen your work on this board and I understand the depth and quality of your work. I empathize with your situation, seems Michigan has hit a hard spot. My location is fueled by NYC, Wall Street, and some old blue money that never seems to run out. The kind of people that aren't counting on a bonus to finance anything. So things aren't as slow as you indicate, but definitely way down for my employer. The cream is gone and the coffee isn't as hot as it used to be either!

Back in college my school had a real modern library with lots of odd cantilevers hanging off it, big brick veneered oddity in cement and glass. The "engineers" and designers that built it had forgotten about BOOKS and STUDENTS. Yes, they never calculated the weight load of the thousands of people that would occupy it daily, and they forgot that a library collection is not static, but in fact grows each year. So a few years into it, the building starts to flex and shed chunks of its veneer, which luckily never hit a passer by. Real mess to fix that lasted long after I graduated. And to make matters worse it was such a great design, they had sold it to several schools in the North East. Same results at each.

I had an IKEA book shelf that suffered from the same engineering. I came home from work a few days after I "built" it to find my six shelves of books on the floor in a pile. When I looked into it, it seems the 48" long shelves were designed to hold something like 16# each? Heck, I have a lot of individual books that weight more than that. I guess the 1/164" of real birch veneer didn't add much strength? Oh, I had voided the warranty by placing actual books in my book shelf. Live and learn. Do you think I would put a stack of Grandma's fine china in a box built by these bafoons?

I like to think craftsmanship isn't dead. It felt a few years ago like a real deep renaissance was happening simultaneously with the big box disposable garbage theme. Take a look at the orange Borg's stock price and the general retail sectors troubles of late and it seems craftsman aren't the only ones on their knees these days. I like to think I'll be a craftsman some day, and I like to think in any event craftsman will be the last ones standing when things get tough.

[Paul Comi]

There's two parts to custom work - the design and the craftsmanship. Sam Maloof gets big money for his stuff because of the design and not because of the craftsmanship. A lot of furniture makers can make a "Maloof" chair as well as Sam but people pay for Sam's signature.

You cannot compete with factory made furniture. If the factories wanted to, and people would pay for it, they could make the furniture out of solid wood and put excellent hardware on it.

But you can make a good living working with a client (certain clients) to design something unique for them. You can also make a good living making things that fit into unique spots (certain shapes and sizes).

I get all kinds of jobs - repair of old furniture, custom jobs, modification of existing furniture and cabinets, and I don't know what else. The individual craftsman needs to be knowledgeable, flexible and innovative to survive.

If you try to beat the big guys (like Ikea) you'll lose ever time. If you try to compete on price, you'll lose every time.

Mike

Well said Mike. This is a truism for everything these days whether its woodworking, microchips, printing, or building cars or any other new product we Americans create. The second the product hits the market, the overseas labor is manufacturing it for pennies on our dollar.

What they can't knock off is local service and custom design.

[Brian Kerley]

Back in college my school had a real modern library with lots of odd cantilevers hanging off it, big brick veneered oddity in cement and glass. The "engineers" and designers that built it had forgotten about BOOKS and STUDENTS. Yes, they never calculated the weight load of the thousands of people that would occupy it daily, and they forgot that a library collection is not static, but in fact grows each year. So a few years into it, the building starts to flex and shed chunks of its veneer, which luckily never hit a passer by. Real mess to fix that lasted long after I graduated. And to make matters worse it was such a great design, they had sold it to several schools in the North East. Same results at each.


Ya know, as an engineer, I've realized that the going assumption is that whenever something fails it's the engineer's fault, but when it's a success it's either the architect, designer, or scientist who gets the credit :rolleyes:

[Tony Bilello]

Ya know, as an engineer, I've realized that the going assumption is that whenever something fails it's the engineer's fault, but when it's a success it's either the architect, designer, or scientist who gets the credit :rolleyes:

From what I have seen about mega disasters, most of the time it is the fault of the contractors using inferior materials which were not specified and inspectors that slept through the project.

[Michael Trivette]

Hello I dont want to add any gas to the fire but lets not assume that all local cabinet shops are better craftsman than Ikea or the BORG

I have worked at 3 different Cabinet shops
and 2 different large Furnature Factorys.

While the 2 large factories did have a division an made (some ) nice furnature most of what I saw coming off the assembly line was ....well junk

And out of the 3 cabinet shops I worked in only 1 would I actually purchase from. The other 2 made more junk than the big factorys.

Do you want it Right .. or Right now

The answer seems to be right now

I know this response doesn' help the origional topic so much but I just wanted to remind everyone than not every Craftsman is well a Craftsman

[Rick Fisher]

My argument on Taiwanese power tools being the same principle is this..

A 30 year old General Canadian Made 12" Jointer will fetch $7000 used.. In another 30 years, it will be running fine, perhaps using a new motor..

The men who MADE that machine are actually craftsmen.. That machine was discontinued from production this year. General has stopped making it, just this spring..

This machine wasnt made in an automated factory with robots .. it was made by crafstmen at the rate of 3 per month..

The reason its gone is simple.. it was $15,000.

You can buy a nice new 12" Jointer for $2000 today. Get fancy and you can spend $4000.

So while cabinet makers lament customers buying Ikea and Borg Cabinets because they do the same task as a quality built cabinet that will last many decades......
Iron and steel workers in Quebec lament customers buying mass produced Taiwanese Jointers because they both flatten wood..

The price difference in precentage is not as extreme as quality cabinets to Ikea Cabinet.. but the dissapointment of the guys who used to make that General Jointer is pretty similar.

****

I am not meaning to be inflammatory.. only pointing out that this is not a cabinet customer specific problem.. this is our culture now. As another fella said, we want it now.. which means not saving up for the best machine possible, like our grandfathers did.. Paying for quality is not in our psyche now, unless it has a flashy label on it, proving its worth..


I am a hobby woodworker.. If I was going to open a cabinet shop, I would sell a brand.. To sell quality, you have to be able to tell the buyers friends that they bought quality.. If you could put a logo on a cabinet.. like a Mercedes tag on a car.. you could quickly become an ego purchase.. In todays society, the two best selling features are either price, or ego..

[Larry Edgerton]

I am a hobby woodworker.. If I was going to open a cabinet shop, I would sell a brand.. To sell quality, you have to be able to tell the buyers friends that they bought quality.. If you could put a logo on a cabinet.. like a Mercedes tag on a car.. you could quickly become an ego purchase.. In todays society, the two best selling features are either price, or ego..

That is something to think about.......

[Jimmy Coull]

Warranty not guarantee, that says it all. First of all, when something goes wrong with the Ikea cabinet, and it will because of either soft woods or being particle board, they will replace, or credit you for a percentage of what the cabinet costs.

Example: $100 cabinet - 10 years old/ 25 year warranty - so you get $60.
The new model now costs $150 so you are really getting back 40%.

Now, you have to hire a handyman/contractor type @ $40-80 to remove said cabinet and replace it. Thats two trips (one removing the cabinet for you to get your refund, and one to reinstall the cabinet) at a 4hr min. charge each, costing a total of $320-640. When it's done you find out that the new cabinet doesn't match and you have to live with this or buy a whole new set of cabinets. Did I mention that you have to pack up the cabinet, drive to the nearest Ikea, wait in line a customer service, get a new cabinet, and then drive home for a minimum of six hours spent by you.

So in the end, that one warranteed cabinet costs you at least;

$90 - your share of the cabinet not warranteed
$480 - Split the difference on handyman,contractor costs
$300 - six hours that you could have worked on somebody's teeth @$50/hr

$870 - total monetary cost, plus a lifetime nagging from your wife because you were too cheap to buy better cabinets and now she has to look, every day, at ones that don't match .

I call that a good deal !:D

[Michael Pyron]

There's two parts to custom work - the design and the craftsmanship. Sam Maloof gets big money for his stuff because of the design and not because of the craftsmanship. A lot of furniture makers can make a "Maloof" chair as well as Sam but people pay for Sam's signature.

You cannot compete with factory made furniture. If the factories wanted to, and people would pay for it, they could make the furniture out of solid wood and put excellent hardware on it.

But you can make a good living working with a client (certain clients) to design something unique for them. You can also make a good living making things that fit into unique spots (certain shapes and sizes).

I get all kinds of jobs - repair of old furniture, custom jobs, modification of existing furniture and cabinets, and I don't know what else. The individual craftsman needs to be knowledgeable, flexible and innovative to survive.

If you try to beat the big guys (like Ikea) you'll lose ever time. If you try to compete on price, you'll lose every time.

Mike

ages ago when I went to UCSC I got to see and sit in some Maloof chairs...I would never refer to his work as being a great design and that's it...you make it sound like his craftsmanship was lacking...I found his ability to use the inherent grain in the wood to his advantage to be the sign of a true artist/craftsman...

in short, I don't get where your statement comes from...

as far as the rest of this thread...whatever...the vast majority of wood working I see on a daily basis is cr@p...why?...because the customer wants volume (amount) for his buck and not quality...hell, most of the time the customer wouldn't know quality if he was hit up the back of the head with it...this of course is a general statement, we all know there are SOME customers who appreciate craftsmanship and understand it takes more time and are willing to pay for it...

the whole concept of craftsmanship dying is an economic concept driven by the consumer...right now we are in a deep recession/light depression and the customer base has dried up and blown away...the boom we tradesman have enjoyed over the last 15 years or so was because of so many people making huge profits off of the (fake) stock market, now that's over and won't return for many years...

craftsman will always struggle to stick out above the general tradesman and get paid decently for the work they produce...

[Peter Quinn]

Ya know, as an engineer, I've realized that the going assumption is that whenever something fails it's the engineer's fault, but when it's a success it's either the architect, designer, or scientist who gets the credit :rolleyes:

Not always, but in this case, yes, it was in fact an engineering flaw, not my assumption. The designers and architects designed the building to look a certain way and create a certain traffic flow. From there, engineers designed it to work and bear load. Here's the design, how much steel, how much concrete, what kind of fasteners, etc. Pretty complex structure, lots of stuff going on. Did fine for a few years. Lots of smart people took a close look at the designs and plans for years after the initial failure, and BINGO, the building was designed to hold a static collection of books and NO people. It would not suffer a catastrophic failure but just enough fractional movement to shed its skin. Guess they figured they never went to the library during college, why would anybody else?:D I know decent framers that can build a stick frame house without an architect or an engineer. But when things get complicated with long spans, cathedral ceilings and cantilevers, in come the mechanical engineers, and with peoples lives on the line they had better know what they are doing and be paying attention.

In the case of my foray into IKEA cabinets, that junk was designed to hold next to nothing, and will definitely hold what it was designed for. Not an engineering flaw, just a very cheap, very low quality product.

[Larry Edgerton]

Librarys are a fairly common building to have structural problems. It is the crossed objectives of the engineer and the librarian. An engineer designs for a specific weight in live/dead loads, and the librarians job is to aquire as many books as can be crammed in the building.

I have this addage that I use that engineers should borrow when dealing with librarians.......

When in doubt, build it stout.:)

[Brian Effinger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Kerley http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1138575#post1138575)
Ya know, as an engineer, I've realized that the going assumption is that whenever something fails it's the engineer's fault, but when it's a success it's either the architect, designer, or scientist who gets the credit :rolleyes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Not Not always, but in this case, yes, it was in fact an engineering flaw, not my assumption. The designers and architects designed the building to look a certain way and create a certain traffic flow. From there, engineers designed it to work and bear load. Here's the design, how much steel, how much concrete, what kind of fasteners, etc. Pretty complex structure, lots of stuff going on. Did fine for a few years. Lots of smart people took a close look at the designs and plans for years after the initial failure, and BINGO, the building was designed to hold a static collection of books and NO people. It would not suffer a catastrophic failure but just enough fractional movement to shed its skin. Guess they figured they never went to the library during college, why would anybody else?:D I know decent framers that can build a stick frame house without an architect or an engineer. But when things get complicated with long spans, cathedral ceilings and cantilevers, in come the mechanical engineers, and with peoples lives on the line they had better know what they are doing and be paying attention.

Actually it sounds like the architect was at fault, because it is usually the architect that is the lead on a project of this size, and must work closely with and oversee the engineering team. The design of any building should come from the collaboration of all members of the design team, from the architects, to the engineers, to even the owner (they need to supply the projects criteria or "program"). And btw, I am an architect.

Oh, and Brian, I'm going to have to remember that! :D Yup, that successful design.... all me. No one else! :p:D


When in doubt, build it stout.:)

I'm going to have to remember that quote too. :)

[Dave Avery]

Couple of clarifications

I was frusterated at the time of the original post, and so I was not clear on "Box Store" I consider any store that does not own a saw and is selling Merilet or Krapmaid or the equivilant a "Box Store" as all they offer is a computor program and a salesman.

A large part of my business is trimming homes one step over McMansions, and so I install a lot of this junk. I am routinely seeing cabinets from these or similar particle board vendors from 50-100K. This is what frusterates me. I could build them for less, make a good living, and the customer would get a far better product but I don't have time to do the work and blow smoke up their dress. These I can compete with, and in fact I can build modest kitchens in the 10k range. But no one asks. The Boxes have done their work, and we are considered too expensive without actually asking.

The misconception about our end products I find amazing. Apparently IKEA invented some kind of metal drawer slide while I was carving out that mantle with my stone ax! Who knew?

This is bad enough but when someone tells me basically that I am inconsequential because I am going to be dead in 20 years I do get a little rattled. I must have typed 5 or so replys that I deleted as too inflamatory, and then just moved on.

My whole point though is not if we compete on price, that is immaterial.

My point is that the idea of the value of owning a quality object is disappearing, and that is the root of our problem. Its not about design, many of us here can out design some punk with a keyboard, and we don't use fillers. Its the basic premise of what quality is that is under fire, and lets face it folks, that is our bread and butter, the desire to have something of traditional value. Without that concept, I fear that we will indeed be on the endangered species list.


Larry,

It's not enough to be a high end craftsman. If you can't market and sell (they are two different things) the value that you offer, then you'll be relegated to installing particle board cabinets. People are not going to recognize what you offer unless you make it VERY clear to them.

[David Perata]

I don't make kitchen cabinets but learned a lesson in clock making. I made some Shaker wall clocks a couple of years ago from scratch, i.e., pine boards milled for parts. They turned out beautiful. I took one to some local furniture stores to see what they would charge for them. They compared them to cheap imports and my custom efforts were worth to them about a hundred bucks.

Now, I did sell sixteen of the clocks at $650 each to a person for impressive Christmas gifts. But the lesson is that the public has been so dumbed down by cheap imports that most folks don't know the difference between Chineese imports and real craftsmanship. And they don't care, and why should they? If they don't know the difference they don't see it and it isn't a factor with them. We have become consumers of the knock-offs from the originals.

My hat goes off to you guys who custom make cabinets. I feel that for craftsmen today to find a nitch in the market place, you have to have a product that nobody else makes. A piece of furniture, for example, that is original. The clientele would be higher scale income folks who can appreciate and afford such things. I'm not implying that in life it is vitally important to have so-called "taste" in esthetic things, but to make a living, it seems to me that you have to go where the money and the markets are, and people who do know the difference between quality and cheap imitations.

[Jamie Cowan]

The dentist's POV reminds me of a story a friend told me. She, a novelist, was at a party where a surgeon said, "So you're a writer? That's fascinating. I've always thought I'd like to take six months off and write a book." My friend responded, "That's so funny--I've always thought I'd like to take six months off to become a surgeon." Some people have no idea what other people have to go through to do what they do. Like writing a book and getting published are as easy as breathing. On the other hand, there is a local doctor who happens to be quite a skilled woodworker--I'm not trying to paint (or even oil and wax) dentists and doctors as all being clueless about the world around them.

On the other hand, the guy who built the kitchen cabinets in the house I grew up in was a real hack. The drawers never worked right, and the doors never closed.

[Leo Zick]

another engineer here, who can appreciate both arguments.

BUT

i think a more fair comparison would be ikea vs semi-custom.

i havent toyed with ikea kitchens, but most of their stuff is a step up from what i think everyone assumes. pottery barn, basset, these types of places tend to build decent items. they are fairly durable, look good, etc. i bought a bedroom set from basset, it looks very very nice, but is still veneered over some soft wood (at least not particleboard).

personally, if i had to choose ikea over semi custom, it would probaby be ikea. now, if i had the $ to purchase what you folks here produce, it wouldnt be a comparison.

the way i see it, we have several levels:
-walmart, etc
-ikea
-semi custom
-thomasville, basset, etc
-full custom

the problem is, at the semi custom level, the lower quality kraftmaid type stuff could be just as suspect as anything else.

[george wilson]

I cannot think of a single maker of factory furniture whose designers I wouldn't throw out into the streets at once if I was suddenly running the place. What a mishmash of crap they toss together these days. I personally call Ethan Allen "Heathen Allen". That's my opinion.

Wilkesborn,and North Wilkesboro,N.Carolina were big furniture v=factory towns in the 60's. The president of 1 company was telling me about a meeting with some New Englander. He kept saynig "Modn" furniture.The President coulden't grasp what he was talking about. Finally he realized the guy was talikng about MODREN furniture!!!

[Rick Fisher]

Any of you guys do tennant improvements instead of cabinets ?

Someone mentioned a dentist.. Building service counters and cabinets for retail stores has to be lucrative.. there is no "cookie cutter design".

I just had 100 feet of lighting display done for a store. the Fella charged me $9000 plus materials.. It took him 3 weeks.. Him and a helper..

It was basically rows of 8' high doors with endless 1/2" grooves routed in them, for light fixtures to attach to..

He painted and installed the product. Seems to me he made money on this project.

[Leo Zick]

Wilkesborn,and North Wilkesboro,N.Carolina were big furniture v=factory towns in the 60's. The president of 1 company was telling me about a meeting with some New Englander. He kept saynig "Modn" furniture.The President coulden't grasp what he was talking about. Finally he realized the guy was talikng about MODREN furniture!!!

whats this have to do with the price of tea?

southerners are suddenly easy to understand? :D

[Neal Clayton]

Now, I did sell sixteen of the clocks at $650 each to a person for impressive Christmas gifts. But the lesson is that the public has been so dumbed down by cheap imports that most folks don't know the difference between Chineese imports and real craftsmanship. And they don't care, and why should they? If they don't know the difference they don't see it and it isn't a factor with them. We have become consumers of the knock-offs from the originals.



just wait til the generation coming out of high school/college now is buying that stuff.

they have no idea what's what. i had this same argument with a guy on another forum a few months ago. he wanted a "kit" to build a wooden garage, and couldn't find one.

my obvious response was "you only need 2 or 3 tools to build a wooden garage from scratch, why would there be a kit for one".

he insisted that not only should there be one, but it should be cheaper than the raw materials would cost at the lumber yard.

[george wilson]

Leo,it just goes to show the level of IQ,education,etc. of some of those ultimately responsible for the junk that comes out of their factories. If the guy can't even pronounce MODERN correctly,what the heck?

[Dave Avery]

Leo,it just goes to show the level of IQ,education,etc. of some of those ultimately responsible for the junk that comes out of their factories. If the guy can't even pronounce MODERN correctly,what the heck?

Hi George,

It seems to me that many people from the northeast make words with more than 1 syllable sound like they have only one. Conversely, people down south can make a single simple word sound like it has 2 (or 3) syllables :)

[george wilson]

Yes,I try to tell my grand daughters that the word "well" has 1 syllable !!! But,MODREN is a bit off base for the president of a furniture factory.

[Leo Zick]

Leo,it just goes to show the level of IQ,education,etc. of some of those ultimately responsible for the junk that comes out of their factories. If the guy can't even pronounce MODERN correctly,what the heck?

oh my lord. im not touching this stereotype...id hate for you, your wife/sister, 14 brothers and 25 children to get angry with me. ;)

[george wilson]

My grand daughters live in West N.Carolina.

[Larry Edgerton]

If all of you fellows want to learn how to speak correctly you will have to come here to the midwest. We don't have an accent.;)

[george wilson]

I was raised in the Pacific North West,and have no accent.

[Tony Bilello]

I dont speak with an accent, everyone around me hears with one. There is no cure for that.

[Brian W Evans]

I really enjoyed this thread when it first appeared. Here is part of a review (http://www.salon.com/books/review/2009/07/12/cheap/index.html) of a new book (http://www.amazon.com/Cheap-High-Cost-Discount-Culture/dp/159420215X) that deals with this topic somewhat:


IKEA makes money, and lots of it, by passing on to the consumer the cost of assembling its products, thus turning the consumer into part of its workforce: Depending on how you look at it, we either save money by putting IKEA furniture together ourselves, or we pay for the privilege of putting IKEA furniture together ourselves. Regardless, these tables and bookcases aren't, and aren't intended to be, heirloom pieces. But Shell wonders if our expectations are too low. We no longer expect craftsmanship in everyday objects; maybe we don't feel we even deserve it. "Objects can be designed to low price," she writes, "but they cannot be crafted to low price." But if we stop valuing -- and buying -- craftsmanship, the very idea of making something with care and expertise is destined to die, and something of us as human beings will die along with it: "A bricklayer or carpenter or teacher, a musician or salesperson, a writer of computer code -- any and all can be craftsmen. Craftsmanship cements a relationship between buyer and seller, worker and employer, and expects something of both. It is about caring about the work and its application. It is what distinguishes the work of humans from the work of machines, and it is everything that IKEA and other discounters are not."

What's more, IKEA is the third-largest consumer of wood in the world and uses timber that comes mostly from Eastern Europe and the Russian Far East, where, Shell points out, "wages are low, large wooded regions remote, and according to the World Bank, half of all logging is illegal." IKEA president and CEO Anders Dahlvig asserts that the timber his company uses is harvested legally, and the company does employ forestry experts to monitor the company's suppliers. But Shell points out that IKEA has only 11 forestry monitors, not nearly enough to keep a watchful eye on all those suppliers worldwide, and five of those specialists are devoted to China and Russia, a vast spread of territory by itself. Dahlvig says that hiring more inspectors would cost too much; he'd have to pass the cost on to the consumer.

The book deals with the true costs of cheap stuff and touches on Ikea because it is one of the world's largest retailers. I thought this portion of the review was relevant to this discussion, though.

[Jim Rimmer]

I just started reading a book called "Shop Class as Soulcraft" which, I think, will be a discussion of the tendency for educators to try to send everyone to college and denigrate those who work with their hands. Maybe I'll post a review after I finish.

Anyway, as to the discussion at hand, the author makes the following comment in his Intoduction which kind of differentiates what is being discussed here:

"As a rough working formula, we might say that craftsmanship, as an ideal, priovides the standards, but in a true mass-market economy such as ours, it is the tradesman who exemplifies an economically viable way of life, one that is broadly available and provides many of the same satisfactions we associate with craftsmanship, Also, we need to think of the craftsman as working in his own snug workshop, while the tradesman has to go out and crawl under people's houses or up a pole, and make someone else's stuff work."

Not a clear answer to the discussion here but at least a difference between a craftsman (high cost) and a tradesman (what people will buy).

[Mike Henderson]

Just because something is mass produced does not mean no craftsmanship is involved. I would be extremely surprised if the people who designed and crafted the iPhone aren't very proud of what they created. And well they should be. The phone has a lot of thought and craftsmanship in it.

I know I always felt proud of the products I helped create and really enjoyed visiting customers who were using and pleased with the products.

Mike

[johnny means]

How many people on here knocking Ikea cabinets actually have any? I would put the Ikea cabinets in my shop up against anything else out there. Granted, I did have the professional expertise to know to use melamine glue.

In my experience, poor quality (in cabinets) is usually the result of poor assembly and not so much cheaper materials. The reason we associate particle board and MDF with inferior products is not that these are inferior materials, but that their low cost lends them to use in inferior goods. A well asembled and installed IKEA cabinet will last a lifetime if not abused. I can't imagine anything that would rip an Ikea door of the hinges that wouldn't do the same to a "craftsman" built cabinet. I know for a fact that nothing that I would apply in my shop wood be any more durable than an IKEA finish.

Truth is the sell a pretty good product (for its intended use) for less than my material cost would be.

That being said, IKEA will never be able to hold a candle to my creativity, and versatility. I can also make the customer part of the process and let them feel as though they put their own mark on the finished product. This is what the modern craftsman has to sell to the customer

[Jim Rimmer]

[QUOTE I can also make the customer part of the process and let them feel as though they put their own mark on the finished product. This is what the modern craftsman has to sell to the customer[/QUOTE]

I think this is what Matthew Crawford is trying to differentiate in his book, between tradesmen and craftsmen. But maybe that's a discussion for another thread.

[tim rowledge]

Just because something is mass produced does not mean no craftsmanship is involved. I would be extremely surprised if the people who designed and crafted the iPhone aren't very proud of what they created. And well they should be. The phone has a lot of thought and craftsmanship in it.

I know I always felt proud of the products I helped create and really enjoyed visiting customers who were using and pleased with the products.

Mike

Exactly - but an important point I suggest we should remember is that the craft went into the design and development and not so much goes into the actual *production*.

In 'the old days' a very large part of the craftmanship went into the actual making of the item because it was done by hand, required skills that took time to learn and facility with balky, hard to use tools. The design was still craftsmanship but a much smaller fraction of the whole product.

Nowadays I can put a huge amount of effort and skill into designing an item using the latest tools - ie CAD software, FE analysis, mould flow simulation, CNC programming, graphic design, with all the skills and knowledge learned in a long life of designing and building and managing complex projects. The actual making of the item may well be done in an unlit robotic production facility. Or it might be done by me in my own workshop using power and hand tools, some of which I built myself.

Craftsmanship is *not* dead. A lot of it has moved into a different forum and is done in a different way. C'est la vie. Do any of you really think that you are not craftsmen because you no longer make your own handplanes, sharpen your own sawblades, cut your own lumber, formulate and mix your own paints and varnishes, dig iron ore from the ground using a shovel and pick (that you made yourself, of course) before smelting and forging it for that plane iron?

Craftsmanship is as dead as it has *always been*. In every time and place most items are crap because most people cannot afford to produce nor own the really good stuff. Almost everything ever made was put together as cheaply as possible, as quickly as possible and with as little use of material and effort as could possibly produce something viable. The balance between time, material, effort, skill, whatever, has always been in flux and whenever there is change someone gets pissed off by it.

It's life. Things change.

[Vinny Miseo]

I just started reading a book called "Shop Class as Soulcraft" which, I think, will be a discussion of the tendency for educators to try to send everyone to college and denigrate those who work with their hands. Maybe I'll post a review after I finish.


I bought this book last night, after reading Crawfords NYTimes article "A Case for Working With Your Hands"

A friend of mine forwarded it to me after I was telling him how bummed I was on being a carpenter (thats a whole different story). It made me feel good about my choice to provide quality things to my clients and that extra effort in service... which brings me back to the original point.

What has given me the ability to continue working is the flexibility I offer. I can build you a custom built in pantry, AND change a light fixture for you. I can build you and entertainment center AND paint your bedroom. Does the fact that I build cabinets one day and drywall another mean that I am not a craftsman? Ikea sure as hell isn't going to patch a hole in your wall, and I feel that this is what gives me an advantage over them. I doubt what I build is that much better than Ikea stuff, but I satisfy my clients with the product and the person they are paying for. Im starting to think that a smile can make up for a lot of caulk :D Getting lucky with good clients is also helpful too.

As Tim said, "It's life, things change" Maybe the nature of the "cabinet maker's" buisness needs to change to adapt to the times.

[Jim Rimmer]

I bought this book last night, after reading Crawfords NYTimes article "A Case for Working With Your Hands"

A friend of mine forwarded it to me after I was telling him how bummed I was on being a carpenter (thats a whole different story). It made me feel good about my choice to provide quality things to my clients and that extra effort in service... which brings me back to the original point.

What has given me the ability to continue working is the flexibility I offer. I can build you a custom built in pantry, AND change a light fixture for you. I can build you and entertainment center AND paint your bedroom. Does the fact that I build cabinets one day and drywall another mean that I am not a craftsman? Ikea sure as hell isn't going to patch a hole in your wall, and I feel that this is what gives me an advantage over them. I doubt what I build is that much better than Ikea stuff, but I satisfy my clients with the product and the person they are paying for. Im starting to think that a smile can make up for a lot of caulk :D Getting lucky with good clients is also helpful too.

As Tim said, "It's life, things change" Maybe the nature of the "cabinet maker's" buisness needs to change to adapt to the times.

I've just started reading it and it's pretty cerebral at first. I hope it improves as he gets rolling. My daughter gave it to me for Dad's day. I saw him on the Colbert Report - great interview.