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View Full Version : Diesel 5th Ave is has the ONLY laser machine to do Denim in the US



Tom Delaney
05-19-2009, 2:45 PM
racked.com/archives/2009/05/19/denim_laseretching_machine_debuts_at_diesel_5th_av e.php"]

This just hit the trade magazine for apparel retail. AND THEY HAVE THE ONLY MACHINE LIKE IT IN THE UNITED STATES! -- that is probably right because it can only do denim!:mad:

Michael Hunter
05-19-2009, 3:10 PM
Probably means that they are the only people to pay for a licence to engrave denim!

Epilog had instructions and settings for engraving denim on their website, but removed them after the patent holder complained.

Michael Simpson Virgina
05-19-2009, 3:12 PM
So what does that mean? Some one has a patent on lasering denim and now we can find our own settings and cut it out for customers. If thats the case it is a patent that could be challenged.

Rob Bosworth
05-19-2009, 4:05 PM
You can challenge the patent all you want, but it is going to cost you. There have been a number of processes on materials that have been patented and those rights have been upheld in court here in the USA. Back in the 1980's, Patlax, an Israel based corporation, purchased the Gould patent rights for laser processing. They purchased the rights to the patent for all laser processing of materials based on Gould's patent which was applied for and granted in the late '60's. Patlex then went to all laser and laser system manufactures and charged a royalty arrangement for all compnents, systems, and materials processed with a laser. They just so happened to be a company that was made up of many very successful attorneys, and they had most of the systems manufactures and all of the laser manufacture's paying a royalty on every system sold. I believe that patent ran out a few years ago.

If you do not think that a process can be patented, try developing a brick marking market. I had played with stone and brick marking for a number of years with a number of different high powereed CO2 lasers. Then one day, for grins and giggles, I toook a brinck to a buddie's shop to give it a whirl with a Nd:YAG laser marking system. Within 15 minutes, we had accomplished a beautiful deep mark with black glass (silicate) melted into the engraving. Absolutely fantastic. We then started to research this application and found out it is called brick revitrification. Within a week of developing a useful process to mark bricks and pavers, we received a couple of very sternly written letters demanding that we cease a decist any further work on this patented process. One of the calls we received, told us about the concentrated effort that a team of scientists, laser specialtists, and a whole team of really important and well thought out people, worked as a team to develop this process so that the Olympic Village in Atlanta, GA. could be decorated with donors' bricks. According to this expert, this process took years and years to perfect. I had to laugh at this particular fellow, and told him that they could have saved a bunch of dough, all they had to do was hire two schlebs to do the same work in a few minutes. Unfortunately, that conversation was followed up with a very serious letter from counsel.

We decided to head in another direction!

So patenting a process on a certain material is very defensible in a court of law. And in this day and age, I am sure there is an attorney who would litigate the case.

Martin Boekers
05-19-2009, 4:43 PM
It looks like the machine has a special fixture to make lasering fabric and cloth easier and more consistan.

I've done denin jackets before and it is really difficult to make sure it's held level and tight for consistant etching.

This machine looks like it was designed for that porpose.

Marty

Martin Boekers
05-19-2009, 5:00 PM
Here's an exercerpt from the government site....

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/what.htm

So yes you are right a process can be patented, but if you look close to what it says you can also patent an improvement to an existing patent.

It sounds like you have, as it took them a team of scientist to engrave a brick and you did with a standard laser!

Wouldn't it be nice to send them back a similar doucument by return mail!;)

Jerry Hay
05-19-2009, 6:04 PM
I have done several denim items before this and I will still do it after. I put a unicorn on the back of my daughters denim jacket and it turned out awesome. I am not going to give up a revenue stream for anything right now.

Bill Cunningham
05-19-2009, 10:17 PM
Hmmm maybe I should patent the 'hole' and collect a royalty from everyone that markets, manufactures, or uses anything that makes a hole.
I'm not talking 'portable holes' here, I think a Warner Bros. toon already invented that!!:rolleyes:

Gary Hair
05-20-2009, 12:37 AM
It looks like the machine has a special fixture to make lasering fabric and cloth easier and more consistan.

I've done denin jackets before and it is really difficult to make sure it's held level and tight for consistant etching.

This machine looks like it was designed for that porpose.

Marty

A couple of toggle clamps and a 4" lens and you have a similar setup. I have lasered denim quite a bit, it's pretty easy to get good results, but you are right that it is challenging to get the material flat sometimes.

Gary

David Lampitok
05-20-2009, 1:50 AM
Cool, Hot pants are back in!

Andrea Weissenseel
05-20-2009, 3:28 AM
This sounds like buying a typewriter and paper, but can't use it because someone has the patent on typing on paper - and of course whichever material to come :eek::mad:

Larry Bratton
05-20-2009, 6:58 PM
It's like saying you can't use a sewing machine to sew various kinds of fabric. Do they say they have a patent on this process? Maybe I missed it in the article.

John W. Love
05-20-2009, 9:43 PM
I didn't see it any where in the article where lasering of denim is patented. A while back I spoke to a friends husband who is an attny and something along this very line was brought up. I mentioned to him about how ideas are shared on here and I questioned about could someone take an existing idea and patent it or the process of how its made if it hadn't been patented before. It was his "opinion" (thats lawyer speak for him covering his assets) that the only way it could be patented is if you were the first to develop the process of lasering a particular substrate in a certain way to produce a certain unique outcome, and even then there could be variables as to how a person lasered said common substrate that could put the patent in jeopardy.

But, it is my opinion that it would be very difficult to enforce at this point as too many people have been doing it on their own for way too long without knowingly copying a patented process. This is done merely by trial and error on their own without said knowledge of the aforementioned process(es).

And if that is the case then I am going to patent the process of engraving on wood, marble, granite, limestone, corian, formica,......... and become uber rich off all you goobers that are making money hand over fist (my salesman told me you were making more money than you can spend!) :D

James Jaragosky
05-20-2009, 10:02 PM
I didn't see it any where in the article where lasering of denim is patented. A while back I spoke to a friends husband who is an attny and something along this very line was brought up. I mentioned to him about how ideas are shared on here and I questioned about could someone take an existing idea and patent it or the process of how its made if it hadn't been patented before. It was his "opinion" (thats lawyer speak for him covering his assets) that the only way it could be patented is if you were the first to develop the process of lasering a particular substrate in a certain way to produce a certain unique outcome, and even then there could be variables as to how a person lasered said common substrate that could put the patent in jeopardy.

But, it is my opinion that it would be very difficult to enforce at this point as too many people have been doing it on their own for way too long without knowingly copying a patented process. This is done merely by trial and error on their own without said knowledge of the aforementioned process(es).

And if that is the case then I am going to patent the process of engraving on wood, marble, granite, limestone, corian, formica,......... and become uber rich off all you goobers that are making money hand over fist (my salesman told me you were making more money than you can spend!) :D
I will let you have your little patents; I am going to Patent the processes of breathing, that way every time anyone takes a breath I get paid. I will be the most uberly rich hated dude on the planet.
"Hey PINKY TODAY WE CONQUER THE PLANET".
Back to reality; Sometimes the laws that people come up with defy both logic and reason.
Jim J.

Dan Hintz
05-21-2009, 7:42 AM
Fine, I'll patent the process of living... anyone who doesn't pay up might as well end it right now. No exceptions! Better yet, I'll patent existence... pay up, or you slip into a virtual world.

Belinda Williamson
05-21-2009, 8:28 AM
I will let you have your little patents; I am going to Patent the processes of breathing, that way every time anyone takes a breath I get paid. I will be the most uberly rich hated dude on the planet.
"Hey PINKY TODAY WE CONQUER THE PLANET".
Jim J.

Oh YEAH Brain! I'm with you Brain! Let's conquer the planet. :D

Dave Johnson29
05-21-2009, 10:23 AM
I am going to Patent Patenting!

Pay up Dan.

Richard Rumancik
05-21-2009, 10:47 AM
Industrial Laser Systems ran an article back in 2006 pertaining to lasering on denim and how it has become a "cottage industry" in China. (I did not see anything about patents in that article.)

www.industrial-lasers.com/display_article/261210/39/ARCHI/none/Feat/Making-their-mark-in-China (http://www.industrial-lasers.com/display_article/261210/39/ARCHI/none/Feat/Making-their-mark-in-China)

In my experience, I have found that sometimes a company will get a patent on a very narrrow application with limited claims; it may be a minor improvement or they have done extensive research and found that if you do x, y, and z you get a specific result. Then they use carefully worded press releases to make you think that their rights are wider than they really are. That may be enough to scare companies/individuals from entering into their territory.

So when a company claims that they have a patent for "lasering on denim" it may be that they have a patent for using a specific kind of laser, on a specific kind of denim, using specific settings and operating modes to achieve a specific result. For example, a company may find that a YAG laser, set up with specific operating parameters, and enhanced with additional washing or processing steps, results in less damage to the demim fibres. They may have even found a dye that works better than the "regular" dye. Then the marketing literature might claim that they have a patent to laser denim.

I'm not saying that is the case here, but when a company appears to be claiming wide patent rights, there are usually some details left out.

One company that claims numerous patents for lasering denim is TechnoLines. Here is an excerpt from an example of one of their many patents. Basically, they came up with a "new" method of lasering which controls "energy density per unit time" to prevent damage to the fabric. However, it seems to me that setting the speed/power on your laser is really setting your "energy density per unit time." They found that once they determine the energy density per unit time for a specific pattern and material, they could get repeatible results if they use the same settings again. Interesting discovery. . . .

__________________________________________________ ____________
Title:
Laser method of scribing graphics (TechnoLines LLC)
Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 6252196

Abstract:
A laser method scribes graphics on materials. The method relates to the identification and understanding of a new energy measurement called energy density per unit time, and the identification and simultaneous control of the laser operating parameters which influence this energy measurement. Once a range of energy density per unit time is determined for scribing a desired graphic on a given material, the energy density per unit time can be controlled to stay within that range to achieve desired results in a repeatable fashion. In a preferred embodiment, the invention relates to a method of scribing graphics on fabric, leather and vinyl materials. In this embodiment, the energy density per unit time can be controlled to substantially avoid complete carbonization, melting and/or burnthrough of the material.

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
(snip)
Lasers have been used in the fabric industry to cut fabrics into separate pieces. They have also been used to engrave designs on carpets, and to fix dyes or heat treat unbleached or bleached goods so as to impart improved adhesion properties. However, in the past, certain technical barriers have prevented the use of lasers to form graphics on fabric, leather and vinyl materials. When such use was attempted, the laser beam caused complete carbonization, burnthrough and/or melting at the point of contact. This resulted in burning, complete penetration and/or the formation of an undesirable hole or defect in the material.

Larry Bratton
05-21-2009, 11:10 AM
Well, if they keep on lasering that vinyl they speak of, we won't have to worry. All of their machines will fall down in the floor in a heap and the operators will all be dead from inhalation of toxic fumes. I also thought the statement in the above "patent" about leather was totally ridiculous.

Rodne Gold
05-21-2009, 12:30 PM
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5567207.html
http://www.wikipatents.com/5567207.html

Neal Schlee
05-21-2009, 12:37 PM
I see someone is laser engraving beef jerky. I wonder if they've patented it? :D

Neal

Steven Smith
05-21-2009, 1:32 PM
You can get a patent on about anything:http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4022227.PN.&OS=PN/4022227&RS=PN/4022227

Neal Schlee
05-21-2009, 1:53 PM
You can get a patent on about anything:http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4022227.PN.&OS=PN/4022227&RS=PN/4022227

Uh-Oh, I've been infringing on this patent for the last 20 years! :D :D

Neal

Bill Cunningham
05-21-2009, 10:27 PM
Uh-Oh, I've been infringing on this patent for the last 20 years! :D :D

Neal

What!! No spray paint? :p.. Goin bald? Better get Mako:D