Rob Cosman Dovetail Saw - Sweeeet!!!

[John Keeton]

I just posted in my project thread a short review of the Cosman saw as it relates to my efforts at curly maple dovetails. But, I thought I would post here some pics, and a link (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1136052#post1136052) to the other thread. Rick Erickson has already “outed” Rob’s new dovetail saw in his classified post selling his LN saw. Apologies to Rick as well, as I don't want to steal his thunder. Rick just finished a class with Rob in Atlanta, and bought one of Rob's saws there. Hopefully, he will post a thread about all of that and give his comments on this saw.

The heavy handle, and the additional weight of the brass spine on this saw gave it perfect balance. My hands are small, and I was surprised to find that the grip felt like the saw was custom made for my hand. I suspect it would be as comfortable to one with larger hands, too. The fit and finish was beautiful. While some may not care for the non-traditional, solid surface type handle, I think the handle helps make this saw the uniquely successful tool that it is.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118763&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1242735424 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118763&d=1242735424)
The leading couple of inches of the blade are 22 tpi. The remainder is 15 tpi. Starting a cut with this saw is effortless, and the cut is fast and clean. I had to get used to the speed of the cut, as I had a tendency to go over the line the first few times.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118764&thumb=1&d=1242735454 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118764&d=1242735454)
The saw is pricey – but the quality in production, and design that Rob put into this saw easily supports the price. The wonderfully made walnut and aspen? box the saw arrived in was icing on the cake. Rob tunes each saw individually, and the sawdust was still on the blade when I took it out of the box.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118762&thumb=1&d=1242735384 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118762&d=1242735384)
And, this was the result of a beginner neander using the new saw on curly maple and walnut dovetails. The stock in this set is 3" wide. Quite a difference from my previous attempt. Starting the cut in the maple was no sweat with this saw!
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118765&thumb=1&d=1242735539 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=118765&d=1242735539)

[Ken Higginbotham]

Wow... Looks like the joint was molded together like plastic. How longer would you say it takes to do a joint of that caliber?

[David Keller NC]

Interesting handle. I'd had a similar idea a while back that I never executed - making an infill plane with a granite or marble infill. I suspect such a plane would weigh in at around 13 lbs. in a smoother size, and might be useful for planing extremely hard woods like rosewood.

Never thought about applying such an idea to an artificial stone/composite material to another tool, looks like I wasn't the only one that thought of something along those lines.

One thing's for sure - if that is an artificial stone tote, there certainly won't be any "custom shaping" going on out there!

[Danny Thompson]

"The saw is pricey . . ." -- How pricey?

" . . . non-traditional solid surface type handle. . . " Is that Corian?

[John Keeton]

Ken, I did this dovetail this morning before heading off to the office. I didn't time it, but would guess it took about 20 minutes start to finish, perhaps a little more. I am not real fast at this!

Danny, my understanding is that the price is in the $250 range (US$), plus shipping. Honestly, I gave Rob my credit card # and didn't ask! I have spoken with him several times, and he has my trust. It is not Corian, but a similar, but superior product. I was told the name, but it has escaped me.

David, while I think this product could be shaped, it won't be done with rasps and sandpaper!!

[Rick Erickson]

The phone books are here! The phone books are here! Sorry, I couldn't resist the Steve Martin reference. That's how I felt when I got mine.

What's the big deal - it is only a saw (and an expensive one at that)? As soon as you get your hands on it you will understand. People will drop a ton of money on a Lie-Neilsen hand plane (and rightfully so) but they baulk at a saw that costs $250. Why? If you do any hand-cut dovetail work you will use the saw more than you will use the plane. After using mine during a recent class I would have paid more. I love my LN 5 1/2 that I paid $375 for and it was used for about 1/2 hours of total working time. My saw, on the other hand was used for about 2 hours of dovetail cutting. It was a very pleasurable 2 hours.

There are a lot of you out there that have the skill to pick up any saw and cut a straight and plum line. I'm not that skilled. I don't get enough shop time to build the required muscle memory to do that so I need every advantage I can get. When I bought the LN saw my cut quality increased significantly. When I bought the Cosman saw my cut quality went to a whole new level. It is extremely comfortable in the hand. But I think the biggest thing that sets it apart from other brands is the weight. Because of the weight you aren't forcing the cut at all. Simply set it on the wood with a very light grip and let'r ride. The 22 tpi at the tip does a masterful job at starting the cut (something that is difficult for beginners). Once your cut has started it continues at blinding speed (almost too fast if you are use to other saws). It took me several practice cuts to learn to slow it down - which is a good thing for me because I'm always in a rush. Now I have no issue with stopping right on my line.

BTW: The material isn't Corian - that is too brittle of a material. I don't recall the material - I'm sure it will be described in its entirety on Rob's site when the saw is readily available (which I believe will be in a few days). Be patient though. He is involved in every saw that leaves his shop so you can imagine the time required for that.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi John,

Nice looking saw with an, um, interesting handle. You mentioned that the handle makes this saw uniquely successful. Can you elaborate? Is there some reason a wooden handle couldn't have been used? I think you are talking about the balance of the saw, but I don't want to put words into your mouth.

Also, are the teeth filed rip or crosscut? I would guess rip, but it's hard to tell from the photo. I know that if the blade is thin enough and the tpi is fine enough, the differences between rip and crosscut tend to go away.

[Sean Hughto]

What do I know, but I've read elsewhere that shaping the handle is the really time consuming (read money losing) part of making fine woodworking handsaws. If one could figure our a CNC machine or way to cast/mold a handle, one could make good saws more economically. I'm guessing that this plastic handle may be an effort along those lines.

[Mark Maleski]

I first learned of the saw when I saw that Rob had posted a demo on Youtube. I hadn't seen the price - yow! - and had assumed it'd be at or below the LN price. Wonder how much of the price is driven by the box. I find that I never keep my tools in the box they come in, even when the box is nice, so that'd be a deal breaker for me. But I'm completely content (i.e., able to cut accurately) with my current dovetail saw so wouldn't be actively interested no matter the price. I *am* curious about the benefits (going off of memory):
- progressive pitch...seems like a no-brainer improvement, but could this be a crutch? What happens when you use/borrow someone else's saw?
- heavier brass back...pros/cons?
- thicker handle...seems like a personal preference. Having tried no other saws I can't say what I prefer.

Congrats to those of you who are enjoying your new saw!

Mark

[Mark Maleski]

Also, are the teeth filed rip or crosscut? I would guess rip, but it's hard to tell from the photo.

Rob's dovetail methodology is predicated on use of a rip saw. I can't imagine his personal line of dovetail saws would be anything else.

[John Keeton]

In the broad sense of the word, I guess one could consider the handle "plastic." But, it has considerable mass, and that is what provides the balance, along with the substantial back spine.

Wilbur, as Mark says, I am sure from the way this cuts that it is rip. The entire feel of the saw is extremely comfortable, and works! And, as stated, it is obvious that some are very content with what they have.

I think this saw is unique, and offers something for that person that may need that uniqueness, and can afford it. It is clearly not for everyone. I suspect Rob will sell more than he can supply.

[Wilbur Pan]

I *am* curious about the benefits (going off of memory):
- progressive pitch...seems like a no-brainer improvement, but could this be a crutch? What happens when you use/borrow someone else's saw?

I'm not sure what you mean by "crutch", but it is a straightforward way of making the saw cut faster once you get going.

Progressive pitch saws have actually been around for a long time. Traditionally, if a Japanese saw has rip teeth, such as the rip side of a ryoba, they are also usually progressive pitch, with the teeth at one end of the saw being a finer tpi than at the other end.

[Rick Erickson]

Wilbur - the reason wood isn't used (apart from uniqueness) is what Sean said. Because of the complex grain direction you get from the handle of a saw like this you can't CNC it. There is considerable waste in trying to make these handles because of the difficulty in shaping the wood. I have the 'bone' version of the saw and the handle feels very comfortable in my hand. It has the finger slots in it that help you consistently dock it in your hand so over time you can reproduce the same grip and thus cutting stroke. The material isn't 'plastic' although I can't remember what it is.

It is a rip saw. It doesn't make sense to use a cross-cut saw for dovetail work. The only cross-cutting you are doing is on the two shoulders on the tail board - which a rip saw can manage at that scale.

Just to clarify this isn't a progressive pitch saw. It is a saw with 2 different tpi settings. The first few inches are at 22 tpi (strictly to help start the cut). The remaining teeth are at 15 tpi. A progressive pitch saw varies the tpi along the entire length of the saw. I personally don't see the value in that. Once the saw is cutting (and the kerf has been defined) why do you need variable tpi?

Also, the set of the teeth are at 2-thou. I believe LNs are at 3-thou (from what I remember - I could be wrong). This produces an unbelievably fine kerf.

[Mac Houtz]

my honest first thought when I saw the picture was "I don't know how much it is, but I guarantee its more than I am willing to pay for a saw with a plastic handle."

I have seen Rob's videos, and his skills and tools are beyond reproach. I have two dovetail saws, a 49.00 dozuki, and a Lie-Nielsen. I will admit to lusting after the Grammercy and the Adria. I will also freely admit that were Rob's new saw fitted with a beautiful wooden handle, I would be lusting after it as well. It sounds petty to say it that way, but its true. If it were a cost cutting measure to make a great saw affordable to the masses, i.e. the new veritas dovetail saw, then I could see it making sense. I am sure this saw is a stellar performer, and I am sure there are a lot of guys who are going to be very happy using it. I prefer my shotguns to have wooden butt and forestocks too...go figure.

[David Gendron]

So the saw cut dovetails on it's own... where is the hokey tape on the Handle... Whe name of Roy Underhill Saint Roy, should we rename Rob Cosman "God" ??
Does he actualy make the saw or some one make it for him? this guy seem so busy with all his books, dvd's and show that I wounder where does he find time to design and produce the "perfect" saw?

Any how that saw look realy good, Ilike the handel! As for the tpi set up, on a short saw it's useless, in my opinion, the blade is so short, that you end up "loosing" 2" of valuable saw plate and since when hand sawing one should use the intire lenght of the blade as much as possible then I think it's on a "crutch",
the saw look good and I'm sur it will sell realy well since every thing Rob put on the market, sells like ot cake... He would put a DVD on how to build the perfect bird house, and people would buy it!! So god is back on earth!!
Amen!
David

[David Gendron]

Mac, it is a cost cutting measure, but not for the customer benifit! And where is the hockey tape on that handle???

[Rick Erickson]

I don't know if the handle is an attempt to save production costs or not. I do know there are many features of his design that don't reduce cost but increase quality, strength and usability.

For example:
1 - the blade is longer, giving you a less labored stroke and faster cut.
2 - the brass spine is much thicker adding much needed weight and rigidity.
3 - the brass pins on the handle go through both the blade and the brass spine and strength to the overall design.
4 - the copper pins going through the brass spine and blade as opposed to just gluing the spine on the blade.

[Sean Hughto]

No doubt it is a fine tool.

What other saws have you tried? I ask because I have tried the LN (plain and variable pitch); a LN Gent's; a LV Wenzloff DT, the Gramercy, and a very decent dozuki rip. All cut fine. I never felt like I needed longer blades, thicker backs, of better secured handles and backs. Seriously, maybe I don't know what I'm missing.

[Rick Erickson]

Sean, I've used a LV, I own a LN and now Cosmans. The LN is a great saw and has served me well. I can't say anything bad about it. I just prefer Cosmans now that I've tried it.

David, why all the animosity dude? No one is giving Cosman a deity title here. We are just promoting what we think is a high quality tool. I don't care who created it. Isn't that what these forums are all about - to offer opinions and help others make educated decisions on tool purchases? I'm constantly promoting LN tools because they are top notch tools. In many cases they are 90% more than any of us need. But we still buy them, talk about them and offer opinions. Maybe Tom should be deemed the Messiah!

[David Gendron]

Rick, I'm just asking questions, like I asked for most of the tools I buy! I didn't intended to be meen or diminutive of Rob, I'm just wondering, asking questions! And of course you are right about the forum role, I didn't say it wasn't, I just try to see the other side of the medal, by asking the questions I did ask...
Sorry if I offended some of you!
David

[Danny Thompson]

Maybe Tom should be deemed the Messiah!

Chris Schwarz looks more the part, don't you think? And what about Rob Lee--he's the earth-shaker, rule-breaker, new law maker?

[David Gendron]

I'm sorry Rick, but every thing you noted there are no inovations nor his design! All of that are or can be found on vintage saws! As for the thicker back, might be usefull for a tenon saw but i can tell you that if you cut a lot of DT in your life, the last thing you want is a heavy saw... If it was the case, you would use a large tenon saw to do the job!

[John Keeton]

Since I was the OP, let me step in here for a moment. It isn't fair that Rick carry this flag.

This thread was started as nothing more than my personal satisfaction with the purchase of a saw that works beautifully for me. I think it has a place for woodworkers, much as does the Veritas - a fine saw, and for the money, there is no match. I don't own an LN, and have not used one, but I am sure they are as good as the LN planes, some of which I have owned. I have never tried a Wenzloff, or Gramercy, although they are obviously fine saws, with many very loyal owners. I don't recall taking anyone to task because they posted their new acquisition of a new Wenzloff. In fact, I don't recall anyone crashing their party??!!??

How this thread ended up being what it is escapes me!

Folks, no one is trying to tell any of you that this saw is the best tool ever made, and no one has proclaimed anyone a deity. No one is trying to take from you the tools that mean so much to you.

The saw is what it is - a well designed saw, with some features that are unique to the saw, as pointed out by Rick. For many of you, those features don't matter, and that is fair. For some of us they do, and I would submit that is fair.

Fellow woodworkers should be able to post a thread gloating about a new tool, and expressing their satisfaction and share that excitement with other creekers. For me, I have said several times, including this thread, that I am very new to hand tools. This saw improved my saw cuts noticeably and was a pleasure to use. I am sure that Sean, David and Mac have all had those elated feelings upon purchase of a new tool that improved their woodworking.

Can we not just leave it at that? What is it about this thread that has brought out these emotions?

[David Gendron]

Since I started it with a few questions, no more, I will say that John is totaly right here and I appologise for my misshape(I hoppe it's how you spell it...like every other words I write down)!

[Sean Hughto]

John, I'm at a loss. I went back and reread my two minor posts on this thread and didn't see anything I said that was tearing down Rob, Rob's saw, or belittling any features of this saw. I asked about the innovations and how they compare to other saws that are available. Is that offensive in the context of this discussion? I assure you that I have no particular emotions about this subject at all.

[Joe Hardesty]

What is it about this thread that has brought out these emotions?

John,

I don't know what happened here, but I have seen this happen on two other forums recently, both related to saws; one was the new LN panel saw and the other was a new Lunn saw. Those threads also went way off the charts and were actually worse than this one.

Maybe it is just an unusual reaction to spring fever, but I hope it passes soon.

I know nothing of this new saw, but it sure is good to have choices and competition in the market place.

[gary Zimmel]

I have had my Cosman saw for a little over 3 1/2 weeks.
It has had a good work out doing the last 4 of the 48 drawers on my Neander Haven.
The drawers were 10 inches high so there were lots of cuts to do.

I own more than a couple of dovetail saws and after using this one it will be my go to dovetail saw. It has great balance and cuts like a dream. The 22 tpi in the first 2 inches took a few cuts to get used to but after that doing the 1/2 blind pin boards were a dream.
The extra weight helps it cut a little faster and in my hand has a very comfortable feel.
I have other dovetail saws that are prettier but none that perform better than this one.

Rob has cut more dovetails than most of us weekend warriors put together.
This saw is the result of his many years and most likely thousands of dovetails.
It is what he believes a dovetail saw should be.

It it the best?
Everyone will have a different opinion.
For me I believe it is a great saw and worth the cost. I will pay the price for a really good tool.
When the tenon saw comes out I will be in line to get it also.

Next time I am talking to Rob I will ask him if he is offering an option of getting the handle taped....
Too bad this thread has kind of went off the rails.

[Pedro Reyes]

The best dammed saw ever made in the history of the whole wide universe is a crappy little Disston I got for cheap off the bay... not even a collectible... and while I may not be an expert at anything I am certainly the world's authority on my opinion... like you all are at yours...

John, I'm sorry this thread took this turn (this is my 1st post BTW). If I may brighten your party by saying, those are amazing looking dovetails you cut... absolutely beautiful, if you cut them with a BORG saw or chopped them with your teeth at the end of the day they are amazing... and if you enjoyed using your saw while making them, then you are way ahead.

I'm glad you like your saw... my cheapo Disston could cut it in half ;) but I'm still glad you like it.

peace

/p

[Martin Shupe]

I have the 'bone' version of the saw and the handle feels very comfortable in my hand.

Rick,

What do you mean by "bone" version? Does that mean the handle is solid white, like bone? If so, that might appeal to me more than the "granite composite" look.

I am interested in this saw, because I think Rob knows what he is doing, and because of the positive posts regarding how it feels and works.

Not sure if I am $250 interested, but it would be nice to test drive if I can at some WIA show or something.

(Don't let my wife see this, I am sure she doesn't think I need another dovetail saw.):D

[John Keeton]

Guys, I appreciate everyone's comments and apologies. I enjoy, so much, the time spent on SMC, and the knowledge and insight into the depths of the world of tools here is amazing. That is what this forum is about. The more knowledge and exchange of ideas, the greater joy we will all have from this wonderful hobby/vocation. And all of you have contributed greatly to that - and should be given due credit!

I spend every day of my occupation in a very adversarial environment - and I have received more death threats than I care to think about. I am OK with that because it is what I chose to do, and get paid well to do.

When I drift off into my own little world of woodworking, I really shun adversity - just doesn't seem to add much to the enjoyment:)

Martin, the handle is available in the two colors. Not having the bone, I can't say exactly what it looks like, although I think it is an "off white." I chose the granite look simply because it was different, and would not show dirt and grime quite so much.

[David Keller NC]

One comment I can add here, guys, is about saw weight. I have (and use) 3 different dovetail saws - one's a Lie-Nielsen, one's an antique 8" Disston, and one's a 10" antique Drabble and Sanderson. I've filed all three to sharpen them, and changed the rake, fleam and set on the Disston and D&S saws to more closely match the Lie-Nielsen. All are 15 tpi (no progressive or different pitches), so they're reasonably comparable.

The Disston is the lightest of the bunch, more due to the 8" length than the size of the brass back. This one is also canted (the blade's shorter at the front than the back) - the other two are not. The D&S has a very heavy brass back - I'd estimate that this saw weighs in at about a third more than either the LN or the Disston.

I find that the D&S is a good deal easier to use than either of the other saws, probably partly due to the technique I use - no downward force at all (the saw's weight does the cutting). Generally speaking, the D&S is considerably easier to start and easier to track on a line than the L-N or the Disston. All three work well to cut dovetails, but based on this experience, I'd say that I prefer a heavier saw over a lighter one.

This is a bit analogous to planes - I definitely prefer heavier tools in the smoother sizes. They seem easier to maintain a constant shaving thickness, and the extra weight doesn't seem to tire me out any more than the lighter planes I own. That said, I do wish that Lie-Nielsen made a "light" version of the #8 - it can be quite tiring to use to flatten the face of a board, and I often use a wooden jointer for that reason.

So...Depending on your techniques and preferences, you might well find that extra weight in the Cosman saw is an advantage. It's a personal preference of course, but I was quite surprised how much difference a 1/4 lb's wieght made in a saw.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi David,

It makes sense that a little change in weight might greatly impact a saw's performance, especially given your technique of letting the saw's weight provide the downward force. Although it may only be 1/4 lb difference, that additional weight is concentrated on a very small area when the saw is in use.

[John Keeton]

In fact, this is part of Cosman's method. He teaches a very light grip on the saw, and likens it to shaking the hand of a very young child. In discussions with him, he also says the weight/mass of the saw is intended to reduce vibration in the blade and provide a smoother cut.

On the length of the saw blade, in my very limited experience, I use the larger portion of the blade, but with the increased length of Rob's blade, my natural swing does not engage the forward two inches of the blade that includes the 22 tpi. So, at least for me, nothing is lost in that area so far as effective cutting surface. I do have short arms, however.

As to comments, I believe by David, about the possible fatigue of using a heavier saw, I could see that may be a problem for extended use, but I don't foresee my usage approaching that point.

And, I agree that most of the features of this saw have appeared on vintage saws, except for perhaps the mass and weight of the handle. But, for a contemporary production, this saw seems to have incorporated a lot of those into one saw that is available to the public without the need for restoration, sharpening, etc. Granted, many enjoy that aspect of this wonderful hobby.

And finally, for Sean and the others, I was not personally offended by any of the comments. My surprise was just the diversion the thread took so quickly. But, all is well, and this appears to be a good exchange of thoughts on the features of various saws, and how those may be an advantage or disadvantage to users.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Hey John, Great looking saw - congrats on the purchase. I will have to stay content with my LN DT saw for now. Any new saw purchases for me will have to be the LN panel saw.

Even more credit to you for a great looking set of half-blind DT's. Very nice! Not sure how the thread turned into a craze of opinions that really came out of the woodwork...(was that pun bad enough for you? :) ) Anyway, doesn't matter - great saw, great results!

[george wilson]

The saw would have to weigh several times that much before operator fatigue would become a factor!! Of course,you wouldn't want the saw to be so heavy that the teeth would grab,but that is also a very long way from happening.

Of course,I don't care for the plastic handle,but if you like it,John,make sawdust !!:) One of these days I'm going to make a dovetail saw with a boxwood,or possibly ivory handle. I will be showered with comments on weight distribution,too heavy,etc. I don't think a few extra ounces (if that much) added to the handle will make it seem awkward to me. The way the teeth are configured is more important than weight,probably. You know those little Xacto razor saws? You cannot saw with them because the fronts of the teeth angle into the cut so extremely that the saw grabs into the wood like crazy. They certainly have no weight.

Mark,thank you for the kind remarks.The estimate on the Queen's box was off by a factor of 3,though. It had to be made to grip the saffron pot without shake when closed. That slowed things down a bit,and all the hardware was hand made,too.

[Bill Gillean]

Since weight seems to be one of the big "tweaks" of this new saw, has anybody tried using "lead tape" to add weight to an existing saw?

[Mat Ashton]

Guys, I appreciate everyone's comments and apologies. I enjoy, so much, the time spent on SMC, and the knowledge and insight into the depths of the world of tools here is amazing. That is what this forum is about. The more knowledge and exchange of ideas, the greater joy we will all have from this wonderful hobby/vocation. And all of you have contributed greatly to that - and should be given due credit!

I spend every day of my occupation in a very adversarial environment - and I have received more death threats than I care to think about. I am OK with that because it is what I chose to do, and get paid well to do.

When I drift off into my own little world of woodworking, I really shun adversity - just doesn't seem to add much to the enjoyment:)

Martin, the handle is available in the two colors. Not having the bone, I can't say exactly what it looks like, although I think it is an "off white." I chose the granite look simply because it was different, and would not show dirt and grime quite so much.


You think this is a bun fight... Post your saw over on the austrlian ubeaut wood forum and you'll see a bun fight - especially when you tell them the price. Take what you paid and at a minimum double it and you'll be close to the price charged their.

[gary Zimmel]

There were a few that were asking about the bone colored saw that Cosman is offering.
I chose that color and here is a pic of it.

118907



.

[Danny Thompson]

I vote Bone, but why no black, I wonder? Maybe there is a bit of "look at the flashing light" going on with this one.

[David Gendron]

I also preffer the bone color!

[Jack Camillo]

A plastic, or synthetic handle is just wrong, anyway I look at it. This is a woodworking tool. We are part of a craft, and it doesn't have anything to do with plastic beads. I for one also like to think of woodworking as earth friendly. That tool really turns me off. At least LV's plastic handle saw is priced as such (And that's a turn-off, too).
Want a high-end AND aesthetically pleasing AND more environmentally friendly tool? Go Wenzloff (I wish they were available), Grammercy, LN. A dovetail saw doesn't get any better than these three makers put out, in my opinion.

[John Keeton]

Jack, I agree with much of what you have to say, particularly about the quality of the makers you list. As I said, I don't own those saws, so I can't say. Then, you don't own this saw, and perhaps that may be an important point, too.;)

However, you may have missed the point here with the handle. The main purpose for using the composite (it isn't plastic as one would normally think - more like countertop material) is for the additional weight and mass. It just isn't possible to achieve that with wood.

But, to the plastic issue, as I look around my shop, I certainly would not want to take the position that anything plastic is banned. Nearly every power tool has some plastic, my DC hoses, various small tools, etc. We don't want to mention our automobiles, our clothes, etc.

I realize there are those that shun anything not natural, and if you feel that way, I applaud your efforts. I am not that strong.

[Rick Erickson]

Hey Gary, good to see you chime in. I bought the bone as well. I really like the look - simple, understated, etc. But more than the look I love the feel of the grip. It locks to my hand perfectly - and at the same position every time I grab it.

[Steve Hamlin]

Rob's checking postage to the UK for me at the mo - going for bone.

But do agree that not having a wood option could restrict the potential market. Could always run a lead plug up through a wooden handle to add some weight. Perhaps projected volumes made it prohibitively expensive to tool up for CNC'ed or even duplicarved wooden handles.

[Mark Roderick]

"Earth friendly" is a very complicated concept. It is entirely possible that one everything is accounted for, the manufacture of this composite material has less of an environmental impact than cutting down the tree, moving it on a truck, etc., etc. I don't know one way or another, but it gets really complicated.

Do you remember when McDonalds switched from styrofoam containers to paper years ago because of the environmental outcry? I read that using the paper actually has higher overall environmental costs.

I'm an enviromentalist! I drive a hybrid Prius, have a compost pile, re-cycle everything and so forth. I'm just saying it's not simple to figure out the most "earth friendly" alternative.

[John Keeton]

But do agree that not having a wood option could restrict the potential market. Could always run a lead plug up through a wooden handle to add some weight.Steve, I think we found that with the Veritas saw, anything deviated from the traditional approach does drive off a certain portion of the market, but may pull in another portion that would not have otherwise been interested - me, for instance. I have passed on LNs that have been available, etc., simply because I felt the Veritas was certainly as good for the money, and I didn't see anything unique about the saws.

As to the lead, I am not sure what that would do to the structural integrity of the handle, and whether one could get good mass distribution. Perhaps others could speak to that.

[Martin Shupe]

I've got to admit, this saw fascinates me.

I have never taken a class from Rob, but I have several of his videos, and I have talked to him on the phone, he seems like a guy I would like to take a class from.

However, before I shell out that kind of money, I'd have to try it for myself. Perhaps Rob can make it to one of the WIA conferences, where I might be able to make it for a test drive.

[John Keeton]

Martin, I will be attending the one in St. Charles, and would be glad to take the saw and some wood scraps if you are going to be there. Not sure about using someone's vice, but seems like we could do that somewhere while there.

[Steve Hamlin]

Steve, I think we found that with the Veritas saw, anything deviated from the traditional approach does drive off a certain portion of the market, but may pull in another portion that would not have otherwise been interested - me, for instance. I have passed on LNs that have been available, etc., simply because I felt the Veritas was certainly as good for the money, and I didn't see anything unique about the saws.
Expect you're right there, John. I was put off LV planes (as well as the saw) for a long time purely because of the non traditional aesthetic. But unhappily for my bank manager, Mr Lee sprays his tools with an ancient shamanic lust potion - as soon as one was placed in my hand, I was converted.
I also think the LV's futuristic design may ease the path to acceptance for this radical material use - especially for those looking to upgrade/replace their LV.

As to the lead, I am not sure what that would do to the structural integrity of the handle, and whether one could get good mass distribution. Perhaps others could speak to that.
Just thinking out loud - I appreciate how much has to go into R&D when one strays from the tried and true.
Cheers

[Mike Brady]

I think that if the saw handle was real granite, everyone here could be exchanging hugs. It would be even heavier, would be "natural", and you could get it to match your Steel City saw with the granite top. Put that in the $700.00 padauk and birdseye maple presentation case, and you got something to gloat about!

[Rick Erickson]

Steve - congrats on the purchase. I really like the bone look (that is what I have). From what Rob told me it is very difficult to CNC handles like this because of the grain changes. For the most part they have to be done by hand. He may lose a few people but I tell ya - as soon as you try it you won't care what the handle is made out of.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)At least LV's plastic handle saw is priced as such (And that's a turn-off, too).
Want a high-end AND aesthetically pleasing AND more environmentally friendly tool? Go Wenzloff (I wish they were available), Grammercy, LN. A dovetail saw doesn't get any better than these three makers put out, in my opinion.

Hi Jack - (or is it hijack? :D )

Coupla quick comments...(and only the initial one relates to Jack!)

Firstly - we don't have a plastic handle - it's bubinga.

We encourage/enable people to make their own handles wherever possible, throughout our line... there can be no "best" shape for everyone. That's why we make the interface kits for the 'shaves, and are now providing templates and instructions for other handles. We certainly agree that wood is an appropriate material, but at the same time - you have to recognise that few woodworkers actually modify their handles...

As far as environmentally-friendly goes, adding value to a tool through material choice will often encourage people to look after the tool, maintain it, and promote a long and useful tool life. Expensive items are rarely tossed out, or abused and discarded.

Really - there's no accounting for how people spend their money, or what they prefer. Take a look at what people pay for options on a car - something most people will keep for only 4-7 years..... $350 for an iPod connection?? $2500 for Aluminum rims??? $500 for a metallic paint?? $1500 for a sunroof?? Kinda hard to argue what's better long term value... most good tools will last your whole life... and then some, and still retain a lot of their value.

Rob's saw - good for Rob for making a tool, and charging for his time - I'm sure he'll do well with it. Time he spends making saws is time he's not spending doing other things.... only he knows what that's worth to him, and it's really not something that can be quantified externally.

Then too - any manufacturer's saw, no matter what you pay for it, will degrade with use... unless it's properly maintained and re-sharpened. The more saws any custom maker sells - the less likely they are to be able to maintain them for their legacy of customers over time... ( should probably name that "Law's law" :cool::D )! Sooner or later - any serious saw user will have to make a committment to learning how to tune and sharpen their own saws.

If you're really serious about having a good saw - buy one. But then your second purchase should be $5 file, and resharpenable saw to practice on...:D

Any how - my two cents worth...

Cheers -

Rob

[Joe Close]

Well put Rob!!! ;)

[John Keeton]

Rob Lee and Lee Valley/Veritas?????

What can one say, but .........CLASS ACT!! And, that is why they end up with way too much of my money.

[rob cosman]

The sidelines were killin' me so I had to sign up to speak up! Many thanks to those "Brave" souls who ventured away from the norm to buy a saw! For those that have to own more wood, buy a Gramercy or a Wenzloff, Joel and Mike make beautiful saws. I have a couple on order. You will have to wait ‘till he catches up however, he’s not taking any more orders at the moment. You can buy a LN if you can find one. After spending 8 years distributing for them in Canada and living thru "Painful" months of back ordered saws I care not to live thru that again. You also have the option of ordering from any of the other very good wood handled saw makers however you may find the same waiting period there.

My point... I teach folks to cut dovetails for a living, amazing as it sounds that someone could earn a living from the way two pcs of wood are joined at right angles! Be that what it is, (very enjoyable I might add) when I fly to a Woodcraft store and teach a dozen or so enthusiasts the craft, they get excited and want to rush home to ply their new found skill. On the way out they go for the "then promoted" LN saw only to find there are two on the shelf and twelve grabbing for it. A quick check on the inventory computer gives the bad news that the item is back ordered for another month and has been for several months.

It didn’t take long to discover the problem, you can’t shape a nice curvy wood dovetail saw handle on the router or CNC without a lot of the curves gone missing, read "grain direction"! So in happy town Maine several local workers carve and sand away on maple handles. Tom is fussy and I applaud him for this, problem is that when someone sneezes and accidently takes off a nice neat corner of the almost finished handle it becomes fodder for Tom’s woodstove and we start again. The handle is the bottle neck for everybody and of the few that I have seen try to simplify it I would not want to own one, read "UGLY".

My handles are a composite, think of Corian with glass fiber added for strength. We get the material in 7" strips 1" thick and bandsaw, rout, drill, sand and buff to the final state. It is heavy, strong, water proof, no finish to wear off. Those with that "acid" sweat will know what I mean. If you drop it, like wood you will damage a sharp corner, there are limitations.

Having taught so many to cut dovetails I wanted to level the playing field as much as possible. I love the wizards who proclaim from the mountain tops that "it's not the tool", to them I say show me your work and let us decide. Every profession that needs them have professional tools, several notches above what the consumer gets to buy. I stand by what I have always said and as many times had to prove, cutting dovetails is 70% the tools, 20% the technique and 10% practice. Look at Gray’s dovetails if you need proof. He came into my class having never cut a joint, used good tools and his first 1/2 blind was as good as mine. I might add that out of 9 students in that class three of them were as good as mine. (Don’t sweat honey I am still faster!) (That always makes her worry)

Gary is one of many, sooner or later I will get a page on my site devoted to first timers. If your thinking it don’t say it, Gary's first was as good as the last 400 he has shown you here, he's just a lot faster now. Kudos Gary!

So back to handles, surgeon saws were a good example of what can be used, bone, ivory, mother of pearl, wood. I'd still love to have an old peace maker 44 with ivory grips.

Bottom line, I am making saws for those that want to learn to cut dovetails expertly and do it now. The demand has already got two and 1/2 of us working late into the night so I don’t think we have to capture all of the market, a percent or two will be just fine.

A quick note on the other features, biggest is the small teeth up front. Not seen this done before and in searching patents no one has ever registered it. Hard to believe something this effective went by undiscovered and as I say that I know it was probably used, loved and forgotten only to be revived at a later date. I learned from Alan Peters that most of the best tips and techniques were well guarded secrets that often went to the grave with the craftsman. The weight came by accident but I really like it and when I pick up another saw it feels like a toy. That said, if this one tires you out it may be time to renew that gym membership! Copper pins in the brass, hated that saws were only glued to the brass. In the past I only ever saw a few come loose but the copper pins will fix that from ever happening to mine. The longer blade makes for longer strokes, longer sharpening life and easier to use. Narrow set, this is something I use to do to the LN saws I sold, less set, better tracking, and smoother sides. You can hear the difference, think smooooooth! The fancy box was our way of presenting filet mignon on china, a paper plate just doesn’t do it. We take it in the pocket for this one, the price of the saw is just that. I have beat up other saw makers for not charging enough. How many of you would do the work you do for poverty wages. From the start I planned to run this as a self sustaining business, the boxes are the last carry over from my woodworking days. Read that as woodworker 101- tell the customer every mistake you made and then apologize for the price you charged them, even as you take the next deposit to pay off the materials from the last job. There will only be a few of you that appreciate this last statement, we share a brotherhood of Pain!!

Back to work!
Cheers,
Rob Cosman

[David Keller NC]

Rob - Never apologize for the price you charge for fine tools (not saying you have, just don't consider it). There are a lot of folks on WW forums that are cheap (not frugal - that's different) and will complain about the price charged for low-grade tools from overseas in the big box stores, much less those made by individual craftsmen to a high standard. A lot of these folks really do think a Veritas or a Lie-Nielsen plane is "expensive", and that's just plain goofy.

Whether you think of it this way or not, you and others turning out high-grade tools are doing a social service - it's a good thing when those that are cheap are forced into creaking open their wallets, or suffer with extra cheap n' crappy tin-foil based big-box tools.

[Sean Hughto]

Hey, Rob, thanks for dropping in. Wonderful saw. Seems like you have a big hit on your hands.

I had a couple questions:

- did you affirmatively decide to forego canting? I'm curious on your thoughts on canted dt blades.

- LN and Gramercy are like 9" I think. How much longer is yours? In the pictures, it doesn't look crazy long. Was the extra length to accomodate the tiny teeth at the front?

Thanks for any insights you're willing to share.

[John Keeton]

Rob, I knew we would draw you out! Everyone should realize that there is room for many dedicated tool makers. It seems obvious that the woodworkers in this hobby do not have all of the same needs and desires - and that is a good thing! We would all want the same tools, prices would be unreachable because of demand, and life would be boring!

Well said, and I hope you stand ready to take on the masses with this post!

[Jim Koepke]

Being among the frugal, if SWMBO could be convinced there was a need for another saw in the shop, my order for the one with the bone handle would be in process.

As it is, other than finding something unusual or picking up something at a yard/garage/estate sale, my next saw will likely be one I make myself.

jim

[Joe Hardesty]

my next saw will likely be one I make myself.

I agree. I find that making hand tools is extremely satisfying, educational, and productive.

[Jack Camillo]

Apologize for the error, Rob Lee, regarding the plastic handle. Should have looked again before I barked. Should have emphasized it was a personal opinion. Truth be told, I have more Veritas Lee Valley hand tools than others, and for good reason - quality, fit, and finish. You make some excellent points, too. Thanks for replying.
(But I'm still going to get myself a big ole Wenzloff saw one of these days! Come on, Mike, get caught up!)

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

A very interesting string of posts.

I think it was about 10 years ago I took a DT class with Rob back at Sheridan College in Oakville Ont, maybe one of his first classes ever. I took two more since then and I can say yes Rob is an amazing master with a DT saw. Who can even imagine the number he has cut and done so all in public, how many of us would dare do that!!

Now Rob, I bought that LN DT saw back at that class, now that I feel comfortable with it I am not likely to change.:D

I am on side with time and pricing, I have a good friend locally who also makes hand saws and he puts his heart and soul into each one, so I know the value.

I know if Rob put his name on this saw it is worth the investment, a tool for life is the way I choose mine, My LN is that at this point..


Best of Luck with this adventure Rob..


:cool:

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

Thanks for replying.
(But I'm still going to get myself a big ole Wenzloff saw one of these days! Come on, Mike, get caught up!)

Hi Jack -

No worries - just gives me the opportunity to jump into the thread...:D

Do buy one (or more!) of Mike's saws... he's a good guy, and deserves the support...

Cheers -

Rob

[Daryl Weir]

Hello Rob,

Nice looking and interesting saw! I don't post here very often at all but this thread looked interesting since it involved a saw with a little bit of a new twist to it. You talked about never seeing the small teeth up front before but here's a picture of a high end Disston No.77 no-set saw from a 1914 catalog. I know these are shown as cross cut configuration but I'm sure they could be filed in a rip configuration also. I realize the ppi is coarser on these but the principle is the same.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk132/daryl_weir/No_77/No77_catalog.jpg

I filed one quite a few years ago in this configuration and it works quite well. It's easier to start but aggressive once the cut gets started and you get back into the 8ppi part. I'm assuming yours will have the same results the way it sounds. It's filed as Disston suggested with a 45 degree fleam which makes for a smooth cut. The file handle end had to be dropped (slopping gullets) to keep the tooth geometry right.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk132/daryl_weir/No_77/No77_teeth.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk132/daryl_weir/No_77/No77_front.jpg

I've always enjoyed the etch on the saw "For Mechanics Not Botches" I've also seen "For Mechanics Not Botchers". I'm sure Disston was insinuating these weren't meant for everyday carpenters (mechanics).

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk132/daryl_weir/No_77/No77_etch.jpg

The blade on the No.77 is taper ground. I'm waiting for someone to reproduce these. If I was still in the model shop, where I had access to the right equipment, I would be trying it. I can't see it as price prohibitive as the price on some of these custom saws seems to be on the rise, just my thoughts.

Good luck & I hope your saw venture turns out great for you!

Take care,
Daryl

[Adam Cherubini]

Rob,

I'm waiting for that royalty check from Rob regarding that plastic saw handle!

I'm thrilled to see this new saw. I love the finger grips (like a pistol). Too bad it's not available in black. I think your saw would look better in black too. I'd like to paint it but I don't want to change it so I may make my own handle. (gotta figure ou how to drill that hole. Love to see rubber on there too. I'm wondering of I can get something from Smith and Wesson and slip it on there.

I gotta tell you I really like your DT. It's shockingly comfortable. My guess is you guys put a lot of effort into coming up with a saw that lots of folks will find useful. It does a fine job for dts and can do tenons and other joints in a pinch. I've even cross cut with it.... I think for folks who only want or can afford one saw, the LV is the one to have.

Even though he's Canadian, and he teases me about my clothes, I think Rob Cosman is neat. He's done a lot for the craft.

And Rob- please send me an email. I need some parts and I'm hoping you can help.

Adam

[Larry Fox]

I really don't have much to add to this discussion other than to remark about how awesome it is to have a forum where you can have posts from Rob Lee and Rob Cosman in the same thread. Add in Tom Lie Nielsen, Mike Wenzloff and Joel (the later two who post here) and we have the space about covered.

However, I actually don't want to see a post from Mike just yet as I would prefer that he make saws and get caught up so I can order some friends for my dt saw. :)

[David Keller NC]

Daryl - I also have one of those Disston #77s. They are quite sought after by collectors, as they're uncommon. One interesting thing about them is that they are very hard - I've been told that attempting to set the saw will remove teeth (not that I've tried).

[David Gendron]

I read something like that obout a rip saw from Disston, I think it's the #120, no set and made to be use on seasoned wood! But I'm not sure if it is the 120 or an other!

[Daryl Weir]

Hello to both Davids,

I guess I could be considered a collector and restorer of old hand saws. Either the No.77 back saw or the Disston Acme 120 are harder and the teeth can be broken if setting is attempted. I've refurbished a few of these and most that I have found at estate auctions have had broken teeth by people trying to set them. It required filing all new teeth in which are shaped quite differently on the cross cuts than the regular 60 degree profile teeth. The rips are filed differently but not quite as drastic as the cross cuts. You can take a look here: http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To_pages/DarylWeir_SharpeningDisstonAcme120.htm

They are meant to be used on dry seasoned lumber only and were aimed at cabinet makers and finish carpenters for the most part. Disston made a the Acme 120 in both rip and crosscut profiles. Here's a pic of one of my rips and a older crosscut panel saw with patent dates in the handle.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk132/daryl_weir/acme/acme2.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk132/daryl_weir/acme/front.jpg

Take care,
Daryl

[David Keller NC]

Daryl - Nice saws, and good of you to post the procedure you use to re-shape the teeth. I'm not entirely sure I understand the use of all of the bevel gauges, nor the use of what looks like flat files (rather than triangular ones), but the results speak for themselves, particular the clean cross-cut in red oak. I don't think I've ever seen such a smooth end-grain shot outside of a WoodWorker II on a table saw.

I may have to sharpen up my #77 and see what it does!

[David Colafranceschi]

I met Rob several years ago at a local wood show and was immediately captivated at his ability to create these joints with all these eyes peering at him. That day he needed a guinea pig to show how quickly a dovetail saw could cut and he turned around and asked me, my hands trembled as I grabbed his saw and attempted. I walked away amazed at how easy he made it look. As time passed I grew to know him better and bought several tools from him. Last year I was finally able to take one of his courses and get some hands on advice. I was amazed by his dedication to teaching the craft. If you had energy to stay longer than so would he. On a couple of nights we worked well past 11pm after starting at 7am, never once complained. Through the five days his ability to break down complex joints and teach the construction was extraordinary. I have been practicing the craft the last few years and amazed at how quickly his techniques improve your skill.

I can't wait to get my hands on his new saw. Even though I love my blackwood handled LN saw I can only imagine what kind of product he can produce with his experience and skill.

Thank you Mr. Cosman

[John Keeton]

Wow, David!! Those are some nice dovetails, and a very nice chest. That is deserving on its own project post.

You will love the Cosman saw - get your order in quickly, as I think Rob will be hard pressed to keep up with the demand.

[Rick Erickson]

If you are looking for one call up the Atlanta Woodcraft. I saw 5 of them on the self the other day. I think they are willing to ship. Ask for Steve. He is the owner (very nice guy).

[David Keller NC]

"I can't wait to get my hands on his new saw. Even though I love my blackwood handled LN saw I can only imagine what kind of product he can produce with his experience and skill."

David - I may be telling you something you don't want to know, but exotic-wood handled Lie-Nielsen saws are real collector's items. I saw a L-N dovetail saw with a Macassar Ebony handle go for $340 on e-bay a couple of weeks ago. Even the "standard" optional cocobolo handled saws go for quite a bit more than a new one does, and more than one with a cocobolo handle did when the option was offered.

So if it comes down to not wanting lots of saws, you can sell your blackwood (african blackwood?) dt saw for enough to pay for one of the low-production saws from a maker like Rob or Andrew Lunn.

[David Colafranceschi]

Not sure how this thread works but someone posted some comments on my post but I can't find them once I log in. Anyway, hopefully it makes it's way.

I have no interest in selling my blackwood LN saw but I do have three Wenzloff ebony handled saws that I would be willing to part with. One is a dovetail saw, the other two are Seaton panel saws in rip and crosscut and again in ebony.

I just found out my bone handled dovetail saw will be in the mail on Monday. I look forward to trying it out.